VVT TIMING CHAIN UPGRADE.

Thinking about the single row timing chain on VVT Hemi's , to my knowlage there is no upgrade available .
So i looked into what the LS crowd have, because all LS engines use a single row chain from the factory .

The best available to them in single row chains are the C5-R roller chains which have been proven in endurance racing, these can be used with stock or aftermarket sprokets, there is also a slightly better seamless roller chain available called C7-R , two of the vendors that sell the genuine thing are Kaytech and Hinson Motorsports .

So does an LS chain have the same pitch as a hemi , I should have just asked this question before typing all the above.

pitch is different,

during my "I have to found away around the VVT cam gear phase" I tried to fit ProGear's PG4158 and PG4210 , re-drilled the VVT cam snout for 3 bolt, pulled the tone wheel(reluctor) off the VVT cam gear made an adaptor, did all that and than realized my stretched(added links) chain wouldn't ride on the OEM crank gear.
The LS cam gear has the same diameter machined into the gear as the VVT but both are larger DIA than the 5.7/6.1.……...Sooooooooooooooooooooooo
Here's what I've been doing,
Buying
S.A. GEAR 78505T-9 Billet Timing Chain Set.
drill out the Rivets for the tone wheel, remove wheel.
Machine cam mounting surface to fit the VVT cam snout, drill locating pin 180 degrees from the 5.7/6.1 pin location.
Need to drill 3 small holes for the VVT tone wheel locating pins.
Remove the tone wheel from a VVT cam gear.
Need to machine a piece or 1.5in Dia alum or steel bar stock to a height of .3/8 drill cam bolt hole and three small locating holes.
Need a spacer on the crank to move the lower gear into place., use the Chain tensioners for the 09 and up Hemi...or add a few links to the chain to remove the tensioner(I haven't tried that yet)

Basicly what you are doing is using the 6.1 gear 180 degrees out, with a the VVT tone wheel attached in it's proper location.

Kool thing is now the timing dots line up like the old school.












http://www.progearweb.com/index.htm for the record AWESOME Timing sets

Rick,

Could you provide some pics for those of us who need to visualize to understand? Thanks for the info, it sounds great!

Thanks Rick, you've put some effort into that, does it all clear the timing cover.

all fits inside the stock VVT cover, chain is a little close to the tone wheel on timing gear.
I'll try and get some photos out in the next few days

why not just pop the VVT thingy apart and block it and put it back to gether? If you want you can even stack shims in it to limit VVT or to fine tune the cam timing while locking it down. They are not rocket science.

Thanks Dave, I will be locking out the VVT on my 6.4, But this disscusion is about what can be done to replace the potentially weak single row silent type timing chain that the vvt engines have .

I thought it might be as simple as using the same chain, in the correct length, as the LS guys upgrade too ( see my first post ) But no! VVt Hemi chain has a common 3/8 pitch but a very uncommon 1/4" between the side plates.

They use the same chain and gears on the hellcat.
Not to sure about the Demon.
Are these pieces not strong enough? Can't see anymore punishment than from a blower motor.
Matt

While I have personaly had no trouble useing the VVT timing chain set up I would not say the hellcat stresses it anymore than an apache 6.4, the super charger is in no way driven off the timing chain and the cam is not any bigger, nor is the valve spring pressures as far as I know, may have slightly more cylinder pressure when first opening the EX valve but that drops as spring pressure increases so.... The genIII valve train is very light so it gets by with a seemingly small timing chain compared to old school stuff with triple valve springs, huge heavy valve retainers and keepers, 3/8 valve stams and pushrods a mile long...

Wouldn't the Arrignton set up work?(Manley)?

Simple answer is no, VVT is different than the Pre Eagle(hence the modification)

The stock VVT chain and Gear set is just fine for 90% of those who use it. the stock setup (same as in the Hellcat and Demon) has been known to go to 7k+ Rpm...no issues. There were problems in the early 09s-14s with some tensioner issues.

Now for the reason I change SOME builds over to my modified set up is simply due to the rotating mass , the stock VVT set up is almost 4 lbs vs the modified chain set up's 1.5 lbs.
For a daily driver go to the track 1-4 times a month. the stock chain set up will most likely out live the rest of the engine.
but at 7500+ there is a HP difference between the 2 set ups.
If I wasn't using my 2014 Ram as a ginune(SIC) pig , I would have the stock VVT set up in there.

A lot of the "need" to change over originally started because of cam price difference between VVT's and pre Eagle, the VVT cams are starting to come down in price.....and like Dave points out , locking the phaser is easy.
Hemitronix sells a kit to convert the VVT over to use the pre Eagle cams and timing chain set up, but it's been my experience with the set up that It beats up the front cam bearing too much for my comfort.

Which is also why after market Rocker arms are almost non existent.
Stock rockers will go well into the higher RPMS

Rick , My plan, weekend street car with maybe 50 passes a year . custom grind .620 lift cam, max rpm 7000 . you'd use a stock timing set ? .

the stock set up will be fine.

Ok, think i'll go with it, but might work on some sort of inspection plan .
still love to see some pics off your double row upgade, if you got some.

What do you do to shed the 2.5LBS. from the chain setup?

Stock VVT cam gear and phaser weighs 1780Gms(3.92 lbs), the SA Gear cam gear and VVT tone wheel weighs 800 Gms(1.76 lbs)
1780-800 = 980(2.16 lbs)

I should of reread the post it's 1.76 Lbs total wt , not 1.5 , so it's 2.16 lighter not 2.5lbs lighter

Thanks!

Thanks for the info ric3xrt I will have a 6.4 project at some time in the future.

Is VVT the same as VCT? My 09 GC has VCT with MDS de-activated....

vvt and vct in this case are the same thing.

Yeah it’s the same, VVT=VCT