Hypathetical question

Ok I know about next to nothing about gen 3 engines but I like to think about projects down the road. Now if I were to build one it would have to run 8’s NA at 2800 pounds in a well sorted out chassis. Budget would be 8000.00 with me doing all head work and assembly. Bracket type of car so dependability is a must. Crazy thoughts or not? Please include needed electronics in that cost as I use a msd 7 right now. Don’t include header cost as those would be built.

A nice 14:1 6.1 factory aluminum block 6.1/426 with Thitek heads would probably do it...

http://thitek.net/

Or if you going the spendy route...

https://www.highhorseperformance.com/HHP_Billet_Victory_Cylinder_Head_p/victory1.htm

https://www.highhorseperformance.com/Gen3_Performance_Aluminum_HEMI_Bare_Water_Block_p/g3ppawb.htm

Short blocks:

https://www.highhorseperformance.com/HHP_BES_Sport_Series_426_HEMI_Stroker_Aluminum_p/hhp449alsb.htm

So much for the $8k budget!

That's what I was thinking. Cheese and rice.

What about a take-out/low mile 6.4 apache (about 4k) has factory steel crank and awesome cylinder heads that you could make even better- 392CID
Drop in rods and pistons-$1500 (13 or 14 to 1 comp)
Lock-out the cam phaser-$100 bucks from comp
Custom cam-$700ish
total 6300

Fuel Delivery Options
1) Dominator carb: 1200cfm or whatever - aprox $1200
Ritter Dominator intake $700
MSD6 G3 hemi ignition and harness $740
total $2640

2) Holley EFI system: approximately $2600 - $2800 - ball park. Rich/fastman efi might have a more accurate number.

Figure 1.5 to 1.6 HP/CID = 588 to 627HP - maybe more?

This motor may be around 75-100lbs lighter than a big block and still lighter than a small block.

This would be around 9kish total...Numbers may vary a little bit, but you get the general idea

I forgot to add. Must be carbureted as I’m old school and want to stay that way as far as a fuel system. I have 3 new style 1050-1150 carbs so I should be good there

I am also in the 6.4 camp. I think they are overlooked for the 6.1's, but I like the 6.4's better.

To run 8.90 @2800 your going to need minimum 750Hp tall order for a G3 @ that price point.
426CI is the minimum 4.09X4.05 is the easiest way there , 6.2 rod yields a rod ratio of 1.53, the more common build uses a 6.125 rod and yields a RR of 1.51 A 440+CI will use a 4.25 crank and the 6.125 rod yields a RR of 1.44 and a 1.01-03 Pin height hockey puck type piston, a 6 inch rod gives an RR of 1.41 and a more stable 1.12-1.14 PH (all #s based on a 6.2/6.4 block, 6.1 block - .03 for PH’s) now a 426CI with a 4 in stroke is 4.12 Bore ,RR with a 6.25 rod is 1.56 but here again your looking at a hockey puck piston.
Personally, avoid the 6.1 block unless you can get a good one for under 1k. at a 4.09 bore those blocks are thin, you would need to fill the water jacket half way for a NA engine to hit that type of NA HP #
Aluminum block is out @ your price That leaves a 6.4 core engine, which in reality you’re only going to keep the block, heads and timing cover, the crank is a nice piece but is only 3.724 stroke, rods & pistons won’t take that HP abuse for long.
So……. here’s some prices from scratch no core engine +/- $100 no shipping cost included
Hellcat Block= $1400-1600
Apache Heads pair =$1400-1800
Crank =$1000
Rods= $650-1000
Pistons+ $650-1200
Drag Pak or Ritter intake =$700-1000
Cam=$650-1000
Timing Cover=$250-450
Oil pan= $350-700
Max price for this shopping list is $8750 and we don’t have any fasteners, valve covers and rockers included or machine work .
Now these are all new pieces no used parts in this list. Min Price for this list is $7000
Not saying that this price can’t be beat, depending on who you know and who can help you out with prices.
Here’s the tricky part to a 750+HP G3 Hemi, Rockers…... to hit 750HP your going to have to spin it high over 7000k RPM, stock rockers will go to 7000 gray area seems to be 7300-7500. Above 7200rpm I would suggest T&D Rockers but now your adding another $2800-3400.
8.90s are achievable ,budoboy has don it, with a 440ci Alum G3 @ I think 3000lbs maybe 2800 not 100% sure on the weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSBeSfrvko8

The 426(SRT392 block PN5037471BF) I built for Clayton has gone as fast as 9.90 @ 138 in a 4000lbs 2010 Challenger once and only once it’s a good constant 10.10 car I figure it’s in the 750-800hp range, he’s going thru the traps @ 7500 and we have replaced the stock rockers 3 times so far.

Excellent details, thanks for sharing!

the cam phaser can be locked out for free, well pennys if you dont have anything laying around the shop, just slide the back cover off and stuff something in the cavaties to keep the vanes from moving and put the cover back. It is a little more tricky to limit it but to straighht up block it is very easy.

I would just buy a 6.4 used, drop in better rods and piston keep the stock forged crank to save $1000 or you could sell me the crank for a couple hundred and put that towards an aftermarket stroker crank. You get the best heads this way that you can massage yourself, your gonna spend at least $1000 on a new cam and valve springs and a butt load on the tall drag pack intake, this is gonna be the big dollar stuff to make the swap, you could save a ton by having the stock cam reground ($100 VS $700) if there is enough meat to get the grind you want. Chances are the block could be used as is, not many high mile 6.4s and when they do get tons of miles they still have almost no bore wear, typically clean up at .010 over. At 392 CID it will be very happy to rev high enough to make 750 HP, of course bigger is better but not needed here. The 6.4 has the biggest bore and works best with the apache heads. I think this is your best chance of gettin 750HP under $8000.

I got a machine shop tooling up some parts for me to address oiling issues at high RPM on the new hemi. They would even be a nice upgrade for stock swap hemis, I'll make a post when they are ready to sell, the first ones are being tested right now with great results.

You will need 765hp to go 8.99 at 2800 lbs
Ported dragpack intake.
1 BGE 6.4 bare block 1400.00
14 to1 rotating assembly 4.05 would be max. 3200.00
Find a set of used heads 6.4 put Ti valves in it and port them.
Now for the tricky part. Do you run stock rockers or get a set of TD or Jesel and not the stock looking ones. This is where you need some testing because IMO there is 2 way to make power without boost. CID or RPM. The stock rockers will limit you to 650 lift IIRC and 7200 to 7500 rpm.
Its going to take money to get there because it's a new build. More than your small block collection or BB because you already have the parts.
But the biggest single advantage of the G3 is PART AVAILABILITY.
NO waiting, on the shelf.
Matt

Well, this is the best budget build I could find...

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/21740hpgen3hemi.php

That's what we based Clayton's build off of with the exception of, Eagle heads , and Hemitronix's VVT delete kit.
With Hughes Cam SER4650 (.611/.642 246/250@50 our dyno numbers were 12-15HP better on average with the eagle heads with max HP of 775@ 7400.
Howards Cams 786045-14 .600/.600 227/233 , made 719@ 7200 but TQ was above 500lbs from 4300-7400.
Next will be a custom VVT based cam to get ride of the Hemitronix deal.

YUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and YUP! again for PART AVAILABILITY--WINNER!

How bout one step further and use apache heads on a bigger bore 6.2/6.4 block?

Thanks guys. I will bookmark this post.

I him and haw between a Hellcat crate and a bracket build.....And I really like that Hughes build.

My only gripe is I run Nostalgia, and they require a distributor to be legal....So I know there are a number of options out there, but the one I wanted is the one BES used with the back to back belt drive heads fitted to one belt. I called ICE and they said that was custom piece and I need to build it myself...So I kinda just left it at that for now...The Hellcat option is cool on so many levels though...

I have a real good set of the new E-heads already ported. Bet they would run...

Would you mind sharing your flow numbers on your ported E-heads?

Clayton and I have been debating over the last few months as to what should be next Apache heads or T&D Rockers. I say Rockers, because we know it'll make more HP with either, but Apaches head prices will come down, and there's always a chance of finding them. T&Ds I doubt we'll see a lower price on them.

I have 2 hellcat block builds that are waiting on more funds, 1st is a 4.12X4 426CI using 6.25 rods for a RR 1.56 and a 1.02ph JE&E customs , he has Apache heads for it. just no money to finish it
2nd is for my niece Caroline, 4.12X3.724 397CI with 6.30 rods RR 1.69 and 1.095 PH Manley's, she too is going Apache head,
since this is going in a 08 Magnum her dilemma is intake.

Keep in mind that Hughes build their CNC ported Pre-Eagle heads flow 347I 166E@650 Lift....so with Eagle, Apache, or Edelbrock heads you will make more HP, the only question is going to be where will that HO be in the RPM band....the high you spin it the better the rockers have to be.

These G3's can make a dump load of power with less cam than the same Cubic inch LS engines...the LS engine NA advantage right now is RPM.

I have some Apaches for sale in the classifieds.

I’m interested in the 3rd stuff as well just hard to step out there and try one especially on my budget
Really have considered buying a 6.4 using a Ritter intake and putting it in my dart just to see how fast it will go with supporting mods ie cam exhaust
Those Apache heads are very attractive

To early for me as I have a W7 combo that I need to buy heads for first. The nice thing about the gen 3’s is new stuff is coming out everyday so it’s kinda senceless to stock pile parts to early.

Are there differences in 6.4 we should avoid?

MDS or Non MDS is about it. A lot of people want to get rid of those lifters but haven't seen any issues myself out of them

6.4 truck engines are built with better parts, Hellcat block, Hellcat type heads, beefier crank/rods, maight have forged pistons

If I were to build one for sure it would have an aftermarket crank, rods, and pistons.

I've been 9.74@137 in a 392" 3400# dart with 4.10 gears.

I have more than $8K in mine, but you could certainly save money by not buying stuff like $1000 headers and $800 water pumps that I like haha.

triple what is your build like?

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1970437/1.html

But you have less overall in the engine.
Meaning if you were to run those #s in an LA it would be more $$ .
Impressive!