Real world 440 Cube Gen 3 numbers

Kicking the idea of doing a 440 cube Gen 3. Has anyone done one with any real world numbers preferably track results. I am really impressed with my 426 6.1 based deal and looking for an all out NA Gen 3 deal to put in my 65 Coronet super stock clone.

I have supplied several cams to a customer of mine who's running a big inch 3gen hemi like that
Has made 713 rwhp through a not so efficient transmission and has managed a very traction limited 9.40 pass or three

It's using custom thitek heads and a ported 6.1 intake and factory ect
Weights about 3400 without the driver

That wouldnt be the no1special would it? Or the Red Baron?

Im itching to CNC some Apaches and go max on a stock lifter rocker setup. Gonna require new pistons im afraid though. Only have about .070 PTV clearance now with 2.10 intake valves. IIRC though I took an old lifter and shimmed it solid to check though, shimmed it to zero lash.

I was thinking of going with Thitek heads and a Ritter intake would it be realistic to make 750 HP at the crank with a factory ported head? My goal would be to run high 9s at 3500# race car on slicks race fuel. What kind of issues do you run into with cams over 600 lift other than rockers?

I think rocker geometry issues start to show past .630???? The rockers start to run out of sweep IIRC. Im not going to make HP claims, flow numbers are never consistent from one guy to another, but BES and Thitek have claimed flow numbers of ported Apache heads that rival W8/W9 stuff that is MAXED. If you have no heads at all and want HP just start with the Thitek's IMO.

the thitek heads flowed exactly what Craig Thibeau said they would on my bench. In a phone conversation with "someone I would rather not name names" said the BES Apache heads go 400cfm at .600 which would be better than the Thitek did on my bench and better than Thitek claims. When I said my Apaches flow 360 @ .600, his comment was that is what they flow stock. I changed the subject then.

on another note, I see companies offering Apache heads ported by Thibeau at Thitek and never see any posted flow numbers on them.

obviously, if you want to have an all out deal, Barton has went 8.50s in factory stock trim.

What is Barton running for a rocker system?

I believe the jesel rockers

I think it would be T&D.

What block would be best for this build? 6.4 or hellcat block even??

Probably 6.4 (bigger bore) although the Hellcat block is stronger. 6.4 truck block is apparently the same block as the Hellcat but with the bigger bore

Edit: my bad, I thought the Hellcat had a smaller bore for more cylinder wall thickness, it's still a 4.09 bore

Hellcat and 6.4's have same 4.09 bore I thought. I doubt a N/A build is capable of finding the limits of any of the stock Gen 3 blocks. If big inch N/A is the goal then a 6.4 car or truck block starts out with the biggest bore without spending a boat load. Im unsure if the truck blocks have oil squirters like the 6.4 SRT and Hellcat blocks do and when a stroker crank is used they usually get blocked anyway.

I agree

My understanding is the truck block is the same casting as the hellcat block.
I'm Not sure the car block is the same. It would be cheaper I assume production wise if they were.
The Truck block does have the squirters. I have one sitting in my garage. 1600.00 for anything you can possibly throw at it NA.
Matt

Has anyone seen good (> 600whp) results out of a street car, pump gas stroker?

My disappointing 449 dynojet run is attached.

Five years ago I hydrolocked my 6.1 Magnum motor. I replaced it with a 449 Mopar aluminum block (4.185 / 4.08" bore and stroke) with the biggest Thitek heads, a ported 6.1 manifold and 2" Kooks headers. Recently I completed a manual swap (Tremec Magnum) and added a larger cam (237/249 0.57/0.58").

Coming from the LS world, I'm very disappointed in the power. Especially as these heads are said to outflow almost anything LS-based. Granted I'm knock-limited to 18-20 degrees of ignition timing (11.6:1 compression; I would have preferred 11:1) on 93 octane. There may be more power with more timing; I'll know when I try E85. These heads have also always let a good bit of oil by the seals. Probably not much at WOT to drop octane, but who knows.

My 90 mm Arrington throttle body seems to limit me to ~98 kPA at 6500. So while there's a few ponies to be had with a bigger TB, it's not a lot. My Legmaker 4" pre-TB intake doesn't appear to be a restriction at all.

HHP told me they get "mid-500s" out of their street car 426 strokers. Again, not great.

I'm wondering if the intake manifold (ported 6.1) is the cork. It's certainly not the dual 3.5" exhaust, which was originally built for a Hellephant I'm not going to be able to get. Can the potential of these motors be unlocked without an extremely tall intake?

How about 740?

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/21740hpgen3hemi.php

From every thing i've read the long runners in the 6.1 intake will be holding you back a lot in the higher rpms .
The more vertical angle of a G3 Hemi port makes it hard to design a low profile race intake, without ending up with the runners too short.

Are curved runners no good?

The above motor saw oil starvation on the road course, so we pulled it. I'll be looking to get it rebuilt, and when it goes back together I hope to have a plan to make 600+ NA whp with it. I've given the intake manifold to a mechanical engineering buddy of mine to CAD up; we hope to 3D print some different intake designs to try. The trouble with the high-rise stuff is of course hood clearance on a modern street car.

Any suggestions on where to send the motor? I think the crank is ok, but the bearings don't look hot. You can catch your nail on some parts of the bore. Thanks.

Modern Muscle Motors.

https://www.modernmusclextreme.com

Cam is too small for the Thitek heads 6.1 intake is too small for the CI your pulling...."Can the potential of these motors be unlocked without an extremely tall intake? " yes/No , the best of the shorter intakes from what I've seen from my Uncles testing is the PREXFIX intake manifold....the Drag pak and Ritters intake are hard to beat for all out G3 Hemi. and Holleys HI Ram wth the LS 2x 4 top is PHUCKING AWESOME .

My 345 in my 04 Ram is running a highly hogged out Edelbrock I'm spinning that 345 well into the mid 7k RPMs it's gone 11.80s @ 120 weighing in at 4650lbs I'm also running a .640ish cam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFLi9U-f0w0 This is an Old Video , this one is now making north of 900hp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYWM09K1rWk

Dual 3.5" exhaust seems huge for that, wonder if the scavenging is off.

Thanks I'll call them tomorrow.


Too small as in too little duration, or too little lift? The motor was originally specced with a 224/232 cam with the same lift, which I assumed was way too small. However when I went to the longer duration cam (again not specced by me; I don't know why they gave it so little lift) it barely made any more power up top. 7 more whp in exchange for less torque below 4,000 and far worse idle. Not a good trade off.

I did see someone got a Drag Pak manifold to hit under a Charger hood by cutting it down 2" and using a 6061.com throttle body adapter. I'll look in to that, thanks. Would you say the Holley Hi-Ram is better than the Drag Pak? Is this testing published anywhere?

I could put a bump in the hood, but can't run a big cowl. I need to be able to see right-hand apexes.

http://www.rylispro.com/ the guy who runs this site is also a good person to talk to , he's running a Big Alum G3 on road courses and he would know better what to do about oiling, ...

I'd look in to the Prefix Single plane intake before the Drag pack for what you want.

The lift is small for a Big Ci G3 engine, duration is fine for a road course car. I've watched my Uncle Ric dyno just over 100 different G3 combos in the last 2 years everything between 302ci to 476ci(bge with darton LSX sleeves) ...he'll tell you two things about the G3... one it loves intake valve size , .54-.56% of the bore and they come alive and they love lift.........ironically MA Mopar screwed the G3 with it's limited lift capabilities....650ish being max with out spending major money on lifters and valve gear.....and to add insult to injury , longer valves tilt the valve tip away from the rocker tips..lash caps will only go so far , then you have to move the shafts out towards the cover rails or go with a individual rocker arm set up.

.My Cam is 250/250 @50 .645/.660 110 lobe separation, 107 installed CL. I'm running modified isky High seat solid lifters , use to have the PQX roller tip rockers but switched over to the Harland sharp about a month back. Heads are a set of Highly modified Eagles with 2.165 x 6mm intake valve and 1.63 X 7mm.Intake is a Edelbrock Victor with the runners cut down.

What Valve size are you running on the Intake side ?

Ah thanks that's good to know. I think I know what to do about oiling though: kickout oil pan and better (vertical) air-oil separators over each head vent. The stock 6.1 (horizontal) AoS in the intake manifold turned my catch can into an oil grenade once I exceeded about 1.1 g.


Maybe I'm too used to LS stuff but 0.650" sounds plenty to me; that's about what LS7 rockers max out at too. I need to take it easy on the valvetrain anyway, so things stay together on the road course. I'm surprised these motors like so much valve lift given how well the heads flow at lower lifts.


What are you doing for engine management to make that big cam drivable?


It's the biggest valve Thitek offers, I think 2.20".

Since I'm running a smaller CI G3 I'm able to use the stock ECU/PCM, it doesn't like 7500+ RPMs that's where we have issues with with this truck, My Brother had to switch to a Haltech in his 09 Ram , the OEM stuff couldn't handle 460ci G3 spinning above 8k let alone

I have a 370cid stroker in my little drag car . Best so far is 9.80s but I am 2100lbs lighter than your p/u. I am running a OCP dual plane with a 850 carb. Also have 13:1 compression and .605 cam.
I was thinking of getting the Prefix or short Ritter. Which do like better for a drag car?

I'm more of an Injection Girl then a Carburetor one...but it's my understanding that the Cascar(Prefix) is a better square bore out of the box than the Ritter , but the Ritter is better with work done to it, the Ritter needs some help in the back coroners , but it's worth 15/20hp above 7krpms.

Joe's dual plane is hard to beat under 7kRPMS and it's better carbureted then the MOPAR single (non-drag pak)

I've seen the XV Vs OCP Carb V Carb and Joe's beat the XV by an average of 10 under 6k but the XV topped OCP by 15 from 6500-7200 and fell flat after 7300 it almost looked like valve float. but that same long block ran up to 7800 in-till the valves did float , with a Holley Hi Ram and 2x4 top it also laid down an average of 55hp over Joes intake, with the peak being almost 75. that engine was a 397 (3.937X4.08) with eagle heads 2.165 In take an 1.60, exhaust cam was Bullet custom Lift: .629 / .640, Duration @ .050: 252 / 260, Centerline: 104 installed straight up.

Thanks for the info. I was told the Ritter needed work out of the box.
When I was putting together my engine, Barton told me the dual plane would cost me about 50hp vs a good single plane