The Borgeson box *&$*$%# Continued!

So last year I installed a Borgeson box in my 68 B-Body. The install was on par with what others have experienced. I compromised and drove the box off center for the season.

Today I decided to dive back into the system and see what the heck is so wrong with this setup. What I am finding is a need to shim the box with over a 1/2" spacer on the double bolt side to get this thing even remotely in the right position.

I am fairly pissed.

As it stands, the Bergman conversion joint will not work with the box, as it is at to much of an extreme angle. In fact it's extreme enough that the steering is hard to turn with the wheels off the ground, and the seal is getting destroyed on the connector. I have decided that I will need to cut the shaft and use the little U-joint connector in place of the Bergman unit. However.... If I were to shim the box 1/2" to get the pitman arm in good relation to the linkage, I am worried it will be so far out that column will not line up with it.


As it stands my options are:

1. Center the box lock to lock, and drive around with un-even tie rods. This would be almost 3/4" difference from side to side.

2. Center the steering components and drive the box off center by almost 1/2 a turn on the steering wheel.

3. Purchase a new Borgeson box and hope that it's not as assed up as this one.

4. Try to re-key the pitman arm by grinding out all the master splines and clocking it over a tooth. And then HOPE that it's even close to center.



Are the new boxes having better luck with setup over the ones from last year?? I noticed the prices came down on them by $200

Why not just re-key/re-flat the steeringbox inputshaft?
- Center all steering linkage
- Center steeringbox
- File/grind a new flat on the splined input shaft
- Connect everything


But if the angle of the box is still bad enough to cause alignment issues with the steeringshaft, I would take good pics and get in contact with them to get the box replaced.

The '1st gen' Borgbox (small sector) I bought was spot on with the steering shaft alignment, but it leaked oil on the welds in a corner.

I shot a video of the leak and they offered me a replacement box rightaway.
Being in Europe, shipping back and forth and time wasted I opted to try and fix the leak myself.
I managed to use a simple punch and move some metal to close up the leak.


Having read about others alignments been way off as well, maybe their welding department needs a fresh bunch of people installed.

Following. I'm looking to buy one of their boxes next week..

I don't think I would grind the pitman arm's teeth out. That sounds like a major PITA and you would weaken the arm(?), not to mention that you would have to do this every time you need to change a pitman arm.

I have come to the conclusion that its not only a mounting issue, but must also be a manufacturing issue with the sector shaft. Assuming the mounting was dead on, and it had direct (Or even remotely close! haha) input into the steering shaft, the spline end of the sector shaft has still got to be cut out of relation of center.

What a PITA.


I will keep the thread updated as to what I find.

I understand that they are now using a modified Mustang box as basis for Mopar's. Perhaps they got it right this time,,,,or are you already using the new box,,,was added sometime in past year or so.

Been there, done that on my EBody, including requesting a replacement box from Borgeson which had exact same problem. Got burned good by them for shipping charges on their screw up however. Finally resolved utilizing a 1/4th shim on 2 bolt side.

All is now well,,,,however one tie rod(forget which side is 3/4 inch longer than other to have box at top center. Doubt that this has any effect on drivability.

Subsequently have acquired new correct steering box mounting bolts,,,photo shows grade 8 hardware store bolts.

In my case, don't believe was sector shaft. If your steering shaft makes an angle just before entering coupler as mine did,,,,it's likely that they did not jig box correctly before welding mounting ears.

Your shaft should be a straight shot to box from firewall into Bergman coupler,,,just as with factory box.

Not to suggest that your pitman shaft could too be mis-machined.

Overall a PITA with a lot of finger pointing and replacing the box to try a new one and then replacing again to re-install their original once I decided to do the shim approach.

All is well now, do like the drive.

Also installed one in the wife's 55 TBird. Had to adapt a full size Ford Borgeson kit to T Bird as no kit for the Bird from Borgeson. A giant PITA, but worth it as TBird steering system with slave cylinders and all was so bad.

having one tierod assmebly longer than the other can induce bumpsteer issues.

Or call me for advice? Not on this board....

I appreciate that, I work during the day (Home with sick kids today) So a phone call is often hard for me.

Honestly lets just do it here.... If you have some information, please share it right here on the board. That's the whole point of this thread, and these forums.


Lets get this information out so others can learn.


Right now I see a sector shaft that was machined incorrectly from center to master spline, and I see mounting ears that are incorrectly fixtured.

The fix seems pretty simple. Don't buy this box until they fix the design. I've installed a few of these, and the box is great, but the alignment and splining at the pitman suck. The factory rag joint shouldn't be at any angle, much less enough to cause binding. ONE vendor saying "call me for a magic bullet" doesn't breed a lot of confidence.
Until Borgeson can figure this out, I'll stick with Firm Feel and possibly be designing my own rack system with a custom spindle for my next project.

Anyone running the modified Mustang box that supersedes the Mopar edition?

Opinions, comments? Understand it is smaller. Makes for easier installation and better header clearance.

No one will like this but its your own fault for using any part that is originally from ford. Ford sucks yes I'm extremely biased I HATE fords. If any of you think that the mounting ears were welded on wrong (they welded on mounting tabs to make the part fit a mopar? that's just stupid) cut them off and re position the tabs yourself. Any one who thinks ANY aftermarket hipo part will just bolt on out of the box and work like stock has not been doing this very long. good luck to you all

It's a Delphi box and design. Versions sold to various manufacturers. A similar one was Jeeps too.

I talked to Borgeson at SEMA about these problems.

The first generation box was Delphi. The new (narrower offset) version is Isuzu.

The box has about 1/2" more offset than stock...if you don't want to deal with it put a factory box in the car...I would have to think by now that it is common knowledge these boxes need a bit of tweaking to work.
That reminds me that the new carb I bought needed different jets and air bleeds....

Anyone willing to pay Borgeson's price for a POS that doesn't fit right is not too smart. A bit of tweaking is jets, a 1/2" offset in the steering box is a design flaw. Not sure I want to learn the hard way what else they half @ssed designing this.

So you fall under the don't want to deal with it camp, so stick with the factory box, simple.

So you are not going to order a new mustang???

No, I fall under the "I don't enjoy getting bent over and dry ******" camp.

But some apparently do enjoy it.

So tell us all how much greater this Borgeson box is than a factory steer and gear or firm feel box.

64.8 % greater, now you guys can go back to talking about dry humping.

That was a great explanation. Makes me want to go out and buy one now

Makes me want to go out and buy one now [/quote]

You should buy one ,they are a simple bolt in and you end up with about the best steering you can get without changing over to a rack setup.
I would contact Peter at Bergman Auto Craft and talk to him directly, he is very good to deal with and if you need advice on installing it will help you out.

You should buy one ,they are a simple bolt in and you end up with about the best steering you can get without changing over to a rack setup.
I would contact Peter at Bergman Auto Craft and talk to him directly, he is very good to deal with and if you need advice on installing it will help you out. [/quote]I was asking a serious question. I'm going to upgrade, just wanted to know the actual benefits over it to the others I mentioned. Is it really worth dropping the $$$ for it?

The money part I can't answer for you, but it is a marked improvement over a factory box.

I suggest you talk to owners of FF boxes as well.

I'll take a stab at the money part.

I started with a Steer and Gear rebuilt box and it wasn't bad. I've driven cars with FF boxes too. FF does great work, but ultimately they're limited by the deficiencies of the factory box itself. The biggest drawback is the slop you get with the steering wheel at 12-o-clock before it starts firming up. The Borgeson box doesn't have this - it stays firm from lock to lock.

Advantages:

• 15lbs lighter
• 2/3 the size
• built-in 14:1 ratio, vs 16:1 of a stock box
• No 12-o-clock slop

Firm Feel

• Box: $360
• Core: $200
• Fast Ratio Pitman: $200
• Fast Ratio Idler: $90

With the fast ratio hardware you'll get a better 12:1 ratio, but it can interfere with some headers.

Total: $850 or $650 if you have a box to send back

Borgrson (Bergman priceing):

• Kit: $860

Honestly, whether or not it's worth it is completely dependent on what you're doing with the car. It is physically a much better box, but if all you're looking to do is firm the steering up with none of the other bits or worries of header clearance and weight then the FF box is half the price.

That being said though, even at the extreme end of the pricing differences, I would order a Borgeson box again without thinking twice.

Ok, thanks. That was a pretty good explanation.

Money aside both Firm Feel boxes I ran were sloppy again after a couple of years of driving...just like the factory boxes.

I installed my Borgeson box this weekend, the install wasn't perfectly smooth as I needed some additional header clearance and some 10ga shims on the right side of the box in order to achieve a reasonable steering column angle.

It's in, as long as it doesn't leak and feels better, I will be content.

Goody, your an engineer.

How difficult would it have been to engineer the box to fit at least as well as the stock box?

Do you have any steering geometry issues with the centering and tie rod length?

Is the coupling center line in line with the steering column? Can't really tell from the picture.

A 10 gauge shim is how thick? Where again? Show us

Why are fast ratio arms needed on 16:1 box?

It's difficult for to understand why spending a lot of money on better hardware that doesn't fit without compromise is a wise choice. As far a the firm feel boxes loosening up complaint. Try something called steering sector shaft adjustment. It's in the book [FSM].

Mine fits like a glove.

For how much adjustment is available within the factory column and what misalignment it can take, it would likely not be very difficult. I would be curious to see what a random population of K-frames look like on a 3D scanner, I bet they vary substantially based on 70's quality control. Not that it's an excuse, but I bet many would be surprised.

I believe Borgeson could simply include some shims and people would complain a whole lot less. For example, Hotchkis includes pretty substantial shims on their front sway bar kit to accommodate factory K-frame variance, I believe my chassis mount shims are around 1/2". While obviously these shims are on much less of a critical component, the theory still applies.

Do people complain? No, they don't. Why? Because the shims are right there in the box and it seems to have been a forethought, they put the shims in and keep on living their lives. It's all in how one wants to spin it.



The car has not had an alignment yet.



Yes.



10 gauge is approximately 0.14". The passenger side two bolts have shims behind the box, a picture isn't really necessary here, it's quite simple.



No applicable to my post. I will, however, consider the 1.5:1 steering quickener I have on hand if I find the steering not fast enough for an autocross course.


The sector shaft adjustment is typically not an acceptable method of adjusting a box, with longevity in mind. Here is how my potential costs stacked up:

Firm Feel Stage 3 Box: ($379)
Shipping Core to Firm Feel: ($70)
Shipping Firm Feel Box Back: ($70)
Total: ($519)

Borgeson Box: ($566)
Shipping: $0
Borgeson U-Joint: ($117)
Selling Old Box: $90
Total: ($593)

It would have been $74 cheaper to use a Firm Feel box. I have a 15# lighter box and, from what I hear, excellent road feel once it is up and running.

It's not a life changing decision if it does not work out, but it's not like my alternative was hundreds of dollars cheaper. The numbers are there and are not sensationalized.

Aren't the hoses in need of an adapter?

My plan has always been custom with the Hemi, shouldn't be any real cost increase there worth mentioning. To me.

In your case maybe not.

Other cases who knows. Nothing sux worse than starting a quicky weekend project only to find out you do not have every thing ready to go as you though and it's 2am Sunday morning when you find that out.

all "easy", half hour jobs take at LEAST three plus hours and a couple of runs to the parts store to do. then, you of course do this on the weekend, only to find out the things you need are "out of stock", or the only available store that has what you need is conveniently closed. then, after finally getting your needed items, you find out things need modified to fit which takes another hour or so with the grinder, mill, or lathe. this, you find out around wednesday of the following week, so by the weekend, you can FINALLY get the job done. half way to completion, you chop your finger, which requires an ER visit for stitches, then, you feel real crappy when you get home, so rest and beers later, it is monday morning and time for work. the following weekend, you almost feel up to finish the job, but get unexpected company for the weekend. monday morning arrives all to soon after the "fun" visit, then another week passes, during which your stitches get removed from your "slight hack". finally, you complete the "easy, half hour" FUN job sunday afternoon about supper time. supper, snooze time, and it's monday morning AGAIN.......... [and we ARE having fun ! - i think ? right ? that's why we do this, right ? it's SO relaxing to tinker in the garage. ]

Moparx -- very well said!

Bergman already scienced this out and has everything you need in his kit.

Wow, price on these bad boys is through the floor. I seem to remember they were around $770.00 at launch. Just checked my pricing and I can get it for $471.75, MSRP is $566.10

Now that we all know how to make these work, its a bit more viable of an option.

Where did you get that price at and is that everything you need to make it work

Thats just the box. I have plenty of fittings and junk in inventory to hook everything up.

UPDATE!

Shimmed the box closer to header (Opposite of where I needed it to go) so the angle into the column was livable.

Machined out the master splines on the pitman. Clocked it over three teeth and it's now within factory specs.

Box is now on center with factory spline of steering wheel, tie rods are even, feels good!


If you get this box, prepare to hack!

On a related note, I have determined that the factory coupling mechanism is not designed to take much deflection from straight.

Yeah...It seems to be designed as a "plunge" coupling for the most part.

^^^^^ Well "I" tried to call you 4 times last week. The answer I get is that your always in the shop. Left you my return information and no returned calls. If the b-bodys are having trouble with this box because of different mounting angles why even try to sell it. A lot of us are looking for a direct bolt in and dont have the time, tools or skills for a hack job.

What is your name. I recieved 0 messages. My email and cell are on my site 24hrs. 516 384 6438.

Ok, I didn't call your cell phone. I called the 631 number. My name is Chris

Step back a second.

There have been some instances in the 300+ boxes I've sold with unexplained angles.

B/E Ks are interchangeable, however, the bodies are different in terms of the location of the columns, I have found cases where K's were not with their respective bodies.

What spline diameter box would I need for a 72 satellite?

I could care less about better steering as I am not an autocross guy, but was interested in them after judging a few cars with them at the MATS show in Vegas. I liked how they allow more room but was unaware of the issues with them and where they came from originally, a FERD?!? GASP! Now an ISUEYOU? Just wondering when the first guy is going to get seriously hurt or die at an event after reading the fitment issues here...

Then why would a factory box fit fine before the swap? So far I'm 2 for 3 installed having alignment issues. The other one leaked from the weld. All 3 were swaps with their original K Frames and factory boxes. I'm probably going to pull the trigger on #4 before my June track day.

Small sector.

The box is based on an Isuzu truck. Nothing to do with Ford.

If you look closely at the OE boxes there is a very small operating angle. Because the new box is narrower and needs the angle to point towards the steering column, this angle is exaggerated.

I sit in wonder as to why some people complain so damn much. I understand that this is not an inexpensive upgrade but WHY don't people ask more questions or do more research before reaching for the credit card? I read from people that must have a rosy view, buying stuff on total faith that it will be a perfect fit without any "brain work" at all. Do these same people buy crate motors or actually build them themselves?
I am not an expert at anything automotive but I do have some skills. I am bright enough to understand that some parts require some slight modifications to work.
Any Holley carburetor needs a throttle adapter if the car has an automatic transmission. Sometimes headers need a few dings to clear a torsion bar or steering linkage.

I don't see this as needing an adapter or adjustment; I see this as defective pieces or a part made to sub-par specs. And as a guy who builds these cars for a living, I can tell you if a company doesn't make a part that fits, we build it from scratch. We have a running joke at our shop when we buy "bolt on parts" like this. We sarcastically say: "Bolt on parts that you can install with basic hand tools in your driveway on a Saturday!" while we are chucking up a spacer in the lathe or mounting the "bolt on part" into the mill before we get ready to TIG weld an adapter together. You get the idea.

Companies have 3 ways of dealing with this.
-Like this case it's deny deny deny and then try to blame the cars, installers, weather, gravitational pull of the moon. anything but the product; While claiming "Call me! I have the magic bullet!" While other installers are actually providing tech help and doing the homework that the original manufacturer and resellers should have done in the first place during R&D.
-Build pieces to a good average spec after test fitting on numerous chassis' and provide detailed instructions on pit falls and problems (and a lot of shims)while providing robust support on the forums and over the phone while also visiting installers shops to help folks new to the product.
-Just build [censored] products and make as much money as you can until people figure out they've got better options and your company goes [censored] up and leave the community and customers helpless.

Well said Dan. I may be lucky so far as the unit I received from Peter appears to line up fine on my k with the engine/trans/headers bolted to it. As I remember the angles were fine the last time I had slipped it into the bay for test fits. Will have to look again to make sure the next time I have it in there for further test fits. Peter does have a point too regarding the possibilties of k swaps being done over the years and how that can effect the outcome. But bottom line, when a company makes a product that is advertised as a "bolt up" unit, it needs to be. People should not have to field engineer fixes. Not everyone with a project car has the ability to figure out a fix. The unit should have been engineered, both on paper[ theory] and on the intended vehicle[ reality], which is where some engineers fail as they have never worked on something a day in their life.

Some of the problem is people buy these boxes from Summit because they are a couple dollars cheaper than me. I'm the only one who can offer any type of installation help due to the fact I designed and manufacture the companion parts for installation. I also have a shop that installs these parts regularly. Too often I don't get calls directly or emails with pictures so I can help. If this was the product everyone bashes it to be I wouldn't be selling kits on a regular basis for 3+ years now and several hundred boxes. I am always available to be reached via cell which I've advertised several times. Every product has flaws of some type, but this is one of the best upgrades for our Mopars to come out in a long time.

I'm a site supporter and have been in the business in many facets for years. This forum has traditionally had a negative vibe which is why so many vendors stay away at this point.

Please be a little kinder with complaints and issues. I am here to help!

Thanks guys. Great points made.

Well this is Moparts where guys can't seem to bolt in stock parts without some level of problems...now if you happen to take your car to someone and bolting in a Borgeson box in is outside their comfort zone you might want to look for a new place to get work done....by some miracle there likely 1000's of these on the road in classic Mopars at this point.

I have purchased from Peter at Bergman Auto before and had no problem getting ahold of him by phone or email to discuss any concerns.

And there are millions of factory boxes that bolted up with ZERO problems. The problem isn't the installer, it's a manufacturing defect.

I guess after this thread the E body Borgeson box will be discontinued.

Who cares how many cars came from the factory with factory boxes... most likely all of them did.

I'm sure they will stop....

There is no "E body box", nor will it be discontinued, nor will the known issues be addressed.

You should contact Borgeson and let them know...

Why do you keep posting in this thread? Do you have something to add or are you just trying to save the rest of us from making a huge mistake?...should I run out to the garage and start pulling these boxes off my cars now that you have told me they don't fit....

We did, numerous times for different reasons. Its been documented on this forum as an informative install post so that folks could see what the problems were an how to fix it.