Posted By: 4speeds4me
Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/05/15 09:04 AM
Is it worth it with a traditional disc/drum brake setup? And if it is, what booster makes a budget friendly option for a B-body?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes?
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/05/15 02:40 PM
Hydros put out a lot of pressure. I use them a lot but not with drums in the back. Worst case you run a valve to drop the pressure to the rear and/or smaller wheel cylinders. I swear by these.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 03:14 AM
There are countless trucks and vans with disk/drum hydroboost systems. It's just a booster, no different than a vacuum system. 
Posted By: 4speeds4me
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 03:52 AM
So then, what is a cost effective unit from on OE application that adapts easily?
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 03:56 AM
I suggest you drive a hydroboost vehicle to see if you like the feel, especially the donor. I do not.
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 09:10 AM
GM trucks and vans ran these things and GM diesel cars. I'll second the drive one first suggestion. Personally, I hate the pedal feel of a hydroboost setup
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 01:47 PM
For the people who say they don't like the hydroboost, what experience are you basing your opinion on? I run gen 3 viper calipers with 14.25 rotors and the cobra rear calipers with 11.75 rear rotors with Carbo tech pads, srf fluid and braided lines. Down the straight at 130 and braking with ease to turn one at Lime Rock. I watch others struggle to slow down. I couldn't be happier with these units. However, I'm using new Hydratech units in all my applications.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 02:49 PM
Quote:
For the people who say they don't like the hydroboost, what experience are you basing your opinion on? I run gen 3 viper calipers with 14.25 rotors and the cobra rear calipers with 11.75 rear rotors with Carbo tech pads, srf fluid and braided lines. Down the straight at 130 and braking with ease to turn one at Lime Rock. I watch others struggle to slow down. I couldn't be happier with these units. However, I'm using new Hydratech units in all my applications.
What do you think we are basing it on? Stock applications and based on driving stock hydroboosted GM and Fords I do not like the feel. Does it stop? Yes. Do you have good pedal feel and feedback, no.
So I do not like it. Dunno about Hydratech, but I am not spending the money to find out.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 04:04 PM
Relax. There are many different scenarios to consider before you condemn something, which is often done on this board.
Poor pedal "feel" is usually a result of a single piston caliper giving an on/off type of feel. As you get into more advanced systems with multiple pistons, the feel becomes excellent. The systems we use are new and are time tested combinations.
Poor pedal "feel" is usually a result of a single piston caliper giving an on/off type of feel. As you get into more advanced systems with multiple pistons, the feel becomes excellent. The systems we use are new and are time tested combinations.
Posted By: 4speeds4me
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 04:46 PM
All fine and good, but considering my original question, this is a fair assessment, and was one of my concerns, frankly. I have 2 diesel pickups. One has a "traditional" vacuum booster, and the other has a hydroboost setup. I've never really been comfortable with the feel of the hydroboost truck.
That said, I agree that this opinion is subjective. However, the vehicle in question will likely be OE calipers up front and and 11x2.5 drums out back...
That said, I agree that this opinion is subjective. However, the vehicle in question will likely be OE calipers up front and and 11x2.5 drums out back...
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 04:56 PM
Given that scenario, you would have more of an on/off feel. If you don't have the vacuum to run the brakes properly, I'd investigate other means, like the electric assist unit. I haven't used them, but I know there are alternatives out there. Personally, I do not care for manual brakes.
Posted By: 4speeds4me
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 09:31 PM
Essentially a stock 2013 5.7 with full length headers and mild tuning...vacuum shouldn't be an issue...
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 10:14 PM
Quote:
Relax. There are many different scenarios to consider before you condemn something, which is often done on this board.
Poor pedal "feel" is usually a result of a single piston caliper giving an on/off type of feel. As you get into more advanced systems with multiple pistons, the feel becomes excellent. The systems we use are new and are time tested combinations.
I don't have a minimum of a grand to spend on hydroboost to find out. Your preferred setup prices out kinda up there and then I still have to add P/S pump and such. I have a manual steering and manual brake car and I do not have a problem with that. As for the feel getting better with more pistons, how much more is that? $2-3000 to find out?
Posted By: feets
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/06/15 11:49 PM
I have to say that the hot rod had the best brake feel I've experienced.
It used all four corners of a 2005 Mercedes S55 brake system and a 1-1/8" D100 manual master cylinder.
The pedal felt a little firmer than most power assisted systems but softer than the old factory manual brake cars/trucks I've had.
When the pedal moved, the car slowed straight and true. Modulation was easy and drama free.
It used all four corners of a 2005 Mercedes S55 brake system and a 1-1/8" D100 manual master cylinder.
The pedal felt a little firmer than most power assisted systems but softer than the old factory manual brake cars/trucks I've had.
When the pedal moved, the car slowed straight and true. Modulation was easy and drama free.
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 01:04 AM
I'm basing my opinion on the GM and Ford trucks and GM cars that had hydroboost that I have worked on. They all worked fine, I just don't like the over assisted pedal feel. 
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 01:44 AM
Quote:Quote:
Relax. There are many different scenarios to consider before you condemn something, which is often done on this board.
Poor pedal "feel" is usually a result of a single piston caliper giving an on/off type of feel. As you get into more advanced systems with multiple pistons, the feel becomes excellent. The systems we use are new and are time tested combinations.
I don't have a minimum of a grand to spend on hydroboost to find out. Your preferred setup prices out kinda up there and then I still have to add P/S pump and such. I have a manual steering and manual brake car and I do not have a problem with that. As for the feel getting better with more pistons, how much more is that? $2-3000 to find out?
Real brakes cost real money, its just the way it is. The difference between stock disc/drum and modern brake systems is so dramatic they feel to me they have no brakes compared to my Dart. For instance, I drive a Magnum RT. Good size brakes for a regular car. Compared to the Dart they flat out suck.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 02:53 AM
Quote:
Real brakes cost real money, its just the way it is. The difference between stock disc/drum and modern brake systems is so dramatic they feel to me they have no brakes compared to my Dart. For instance, I drive a Magnum RT. Good size brakes for a regular car. Compared to the Dart they flat out suck.
Not pissing away several grand to find out if I like the way your setup feels.
Guess he more it costs the realer it is.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 02:57 AM
Stock brakes generally have adequate boost with the vacuum booster. I would expect limited gain most of the time with hydroboost. Some aftermarket setups (like mine) need more boost due to smaller front piston area. Also may be a benefit with significantly larger than stock tire diameter which can reduce brake force.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 04:35 AM
I'm looking at Tom's Valiant and unless I missed he's running stock A body discs up front and Mustang rear discs out back and killing lots of "modern" iron.
I guess if I ever plan to hit the Silver State Challenge or try to beat my personal banzai run from San Diego to Tucson's time (4.5 hours to cover 400 miles) I don't need much bigger than I have.
I guess if I ever plan to hit the Silver State Challenge or try to beat my personal banzai run from San Diego to Tucson's time (4.5 hours to cover 400 miles) I don't need much bigger than I have.
Posted By: Brian
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 06:09 AM
It’s always amazed me how we attack each other on Moparts when we don’t agree. I understand Peter to say that if you’re going to road race, you need a brake system to support that specific type of driving. I get that and I’m building as much braking capacity into my Duster that I can afford. I do want to be able to “haul down” from 120Mph+ as quickly as possible.
An autocross cannot be compared to a road course; they are two different animals. Does everyone large need 4-wheel disc brakes and a hydro-boost? No they don’t, pick what works for your style of driving.
An autocross cannot be compared to a road course; they are two different animals. Does everyone large need 4-wheel disc brakes and a hydro-boost? No they don’t, pick what works for your style of driving.
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 06:33 AM
I think it's important to separate the booster vs. the brakes. hydroboost doesn't do anything to make the car stop better. It's just a different form of power assist. Adding hydroboost to your stock brakes will only affect how much pedal pressure input is needed to stop the car, not the distance it takes to stop the car or the resistance to brake fade.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 05:16 PM
Quote:
It’s always amazed me how we attack each other on Moparts when we don’t agree. I understand Peter to say that if you’re going to road race, you need a brake system to support that specific type of driving. I get that and I’m building as much braking capacity into my Duster that I can afford. I do want to be able to “haul down” from 120Mph+ as quickly as possible.
An autocross cannot be compared to a road course; they are two different animals. Does everyone large need 4-wheel disc brakes and a hydro-boost? No they don’t, pick what works for your style of driving.
Go back and reread the OP's question.
The tell me how either your post or Pete's is relevant.
Well?
Pete's answers always involves cubic dollars and if you offer an alternative it's always followed by a belittling post about your choice not being "real" or "modern". You'd think he sells the crap.
Posted By: Viol8r
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 07:34 PM
Quote:Quote:
It’s always amazed me how we attack each other on Moparts when we don’t agree. I understand Peter to say that if you’re going to road race, you need a brake system to support that specific type of driving. I get that and I’m building as much braking capacity into my Duster that I can afford. I do want to be able to “haul down” from 120Mph+ as quickly as possible.
An autocross cannot be compared to a road course; they are two different animals. Does everyone large need 4-wheel disc brakes and a hydro-boost? No they don’t, pick what works for your style of driving.
Go back and reread the OP's question.
The tell me how either your post or Pete's is relevant.
Well?
Pete's answers always involves cubic dollars and if you offer an alternative it's always followed by a belittling post about your choice not being "real" or "modern". You'd think he sells the crap.
Supercuda, we got it. Just remember this area is for people interested in thinking outside the box a little, and maybe trying something other then manual brakes or manual steering. It's all about the application. Not saying it does not work for what you have experienced.
I run hydraboost as we put the car through many different situations. USCA Thunderhill last weekend was awesome and we love the system for that. Granted we run bigger brakes and I am used to it. But I have also blown seals out of stock type calipers with hydraboost.
For the OP. No real need for it in your case. Unless you are running a big motor and want to ensure no vacuum loss under braking. It does feel different, but to me all it feels like is what you get with a newer car. Just a bit less effort for braking and a consistent feel.
Posted By: 4speeds4me
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/07/15 08:17 PM
So, all disagreements aside, spending some time researching to get a good quality pad, and sizing the master and wheel cylinders correctly, I will likely be happy enough with the current system.
I never really had reason to complain about the abilities of my manual drum 69 B-body to do what I needed on a daily basis, so I am more comfortable that I can get it done with decent size discs and drums...
I never really had reason to complain about the abilities of my manual drum 69 B-body to do what I needed on a daily basis, so I am more comfortable that I can get it done with decent size discs and drums...
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/08/15 12:19 AM
I like manual because of its simplicity and light weight. I have never lacked braking with a 15/16" master. I think getting the right combo here is critical to its effectiveness. The hydroboost setups are a great setup but I really think in my case I would have to re-learn how to drive my car if I had it. Some people cant drive without them, some people have tried them and went back to manual too. Its what YOU like in YOUR car that matters.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/08/15 05:07 AM
Quote:
I'm looking at Tom's Valiant and unless I missed he's running stock A body discs up front and Mustang rear discs out back and killing lots of "modern" iron.
I guess if I ever plan to hit the Silver State Challenge or try to beat my personal banzai run from San Diego to Tucson's time (4.5 hours to cover 400 miles) I don't need much bigger than I have.
That's on a autocross course that is lower speeds and last under ONE minute.
Tom has express concern with going out on a road course track day with those brakes.
I run those 11.75 on a road course and they do heat up, fade, and get a little spongy. I'm just careful and brake early. I'm sure simple brake ducts would help. As would pad compound (limited availability).
I think it's fine for getting started. At some speed/lap times/skill a brake upgrade will lower lap times.
Posted By: 1974Cuda360
Re: Hydroboost on "stock-ish" brakes? - 03/09/15 04:12 PM
I've had some good experience with Hydroboost brakes. Many years ago I had a 1986 5.0 Mustang. If you are familiar with Mustangs of that time, you know they didn't stop very well from the factory. To improve braking, I purchased a rear disc brake kit eliminating the drum brakes. The brake kit adapted rear disc brakes from the Thunderbird. I was very disappointed that there was no improvement in the brakes at all. So, I continued using the vehicle with unimpressive brakes.
Several years later, I read an article about adapting Hydroboost braking components from a non-ABS Lincoln LSC onto the Mustang. I got the components from a junkyard and had my mechanic install them on my Mustang. And, I couldn't have been happier with the results. There was a huge noticeable difference in braking. The brake pedal felt better and more consistent than with the vacuum brake booster. And, stopping power was noticeably improved. In fact, I would say the stopping power dramatically improved. Although the brake pads, calibers and all other braking components were the same, the Hydroboost set up increased line pressure which increased the amount of force squeezing the calipers together.
I have no experience with hydroboost brakes on a Mopar, but I plan on switching from a vacuum brake booster to hydroboost set up as soon as my budget allows. In my opinion, the feel of a brake pedal on a hydroboost set up is more consistent and predictable than the pedal feel of a vacuum brakes booster. Vacuum booster brakes can feel spongy sometimes and this is never the case with a hydroboost set up. If I remember correctly, a vacuum brake booster operates anywhere between 800 psi and 1100 psi and a hydroboost brake set up is between 1200 psi and 1500 psi. On the road, this means that you use less brake pedal effort to increase braking force to your calipers.
Several years later, I read an article about adapting Hydroboost braking components from a non-ABS Lincoln LSC onto the Mustang. I got the components from a junkyard and had my mechanic install them on my Mustang. And, I couldn't have been happier with the results. There was a huge noticeable difference in braking. The brake pedal felt better and more consistent than with the vacuum brake booster. And, stopping power was noticeably improved. In fact, I would say the stopping power dramatically improved. Although the brake pads, calibers and all other braking components were the same, the Hydroboost set up increased line pressure which increased the amount of force squeezing the calipers together.
I have no experience with hydroboost brakes on a Mopar, but I plan on switching from a vacuum brake booster to hydroboost set up as soon as my budget allows. In my opinion, the feel of a brake pedal on a hydroboost set up is more consistent and predictable than the pedal feel of a vacuum brakes booster. Vacuum booster brakes can feel spongy sometimes and this is never the case with a hydroboost set up. If I remember correctly, a vacuum brake booster operates anywhere between 800 psi and 1100 psi and a hydroboost brake set up is between 1200 psi and 1500 psi. On the road, this means that you use less brake pedal effort to increase braking force to your calipers.