67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1507:23 PM
Thought I'd throw together a quick build/race thread for my 1967 Valiant I'll be Autocrossing all year, running in the biggest SCCA CAM class in the country, maybe a USCA event, Goodguys, going up against much more high dollar Ford/GM competitors and giv�ng them Hell...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1507:25 PM
Yep, I watched Tom race the Valiant back when he first got it back together (running tiny 265/35/18's at the time) and he definitely had one of the top laps compared to most other high budget builds.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1507:26 PM
Quick background on me, I have always been a car guy, started with an early Fox Mustang in high school, then 70sVettes, then my Uncle introduced me to his 1969 Barracuda Convertible...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1507:29 PM
I started Autocrossing the Barracuda at Goodguys events in 2012, and even though it was basically stock with a front sway bar added, had a blast. The "leaning tower of Cuda" as Chad the Goodguys announcer called it was a fan favorite, and ran most of its laps full with two or three passengers..
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1507:39 PM
On Sundays at Goodguys, they have a late model class available. I bought a 2013 Mustang GT with the 420HP 5.0, a 6 speed, and Brembo brakes to be my daily driver. I was lucky enough to win 3 straight late model Sundays, and 3 sets of BFG tires. The Mustang was fast, but I didn't enjoy the feel of electronic aids and 3800lbs in the turns. The idea of a stiffer-than-a-convertible Autocrossing A body was born...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1507:47 PM
It also looked like one of the many previous owners had used freeway guard rails as guidance, every fender and door were crooked, and had been repaired poorly...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1507:52 PM
My plan to keep costs low were simple, steal the 300HP crate Magnum 360 out of my Barracuda, source an A833, and use a $150 junkyard Ford 8.8 so I could get cheap limited slip and disc brakes as well. Since I had autocrossed a bit with Dan, he wanted to install the Hotchkis TVS...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1508:24 PM
Nice Saleen Tom, those are FUN cars. I wish I would've started with a Valiant or Dart post car, you really do have the IDEAL Mopar platform to cause the brand X guys serious grief.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1509:15 PM
Quote: Nice Saleen Tom, those are FUN cars. I wish I would've started with a Valiant or Dart post car, you really do have the IDEAL Mopar platform to cause the brand X guys serious grief.
Thanks! I loved those early Saleens since I couldn't afford one in High School, in 1984 that was my dream car... Had to sell the one in the pic so I could keep both Valiant and Barracuda.
First step at Dans shop with the Valiant was cleaning and /6 and 904 removal...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1509:21 PM
Quote: Love this, keep it coming!
Thanks, trying to keep the build part as short and sweet as possible so we can get to racing, the Barracudas 360 and an A833 OD Dan had laying around went in...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1509:28 PM
Wanted to try a Borgeson box since the Firm Feel stage 3 I had on the Barracuda still had some on-center deadness. Between the factory Z bar setup and the power steering we had a lot of fitment issues, detailed by Dan in another thread, so the Doug's Headers had to go. Eventually I went with the new TTI shorties...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1509:29 PM
My early goal with the Valiant was to maximize front tire, the High Dollar 69 Camaros I run against were starting to use 315 tires in front, but I'm hoping I could get by with a little less since the Valiant should be lighter. I ordered some $99 18x10 American Muscle Mustang wheels, and got a deal on some 265/35/18 Falken RT-615Ks
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1509:43 PM
As the car was leaving Yuma, Dan had to due some emergency rear fender clearancing, went for a Hemi Super Sport effect. Unfortunately I didn't think the look was quite right...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1509:47 PM
George made some relief cuts in the fenders, welded the lip back on, pushed it out with a pneumatic jack. Note the inches-thick previously applied body filler...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 01/31/1510:42 PM
You can see how George modified the fender line behind the door as the Fender bulges out around the rear tire. He did similar pneumatic work on the front fenders and gained about 3/4 of an inch up front. In the Rear we have almost 14 inches of rear fender lip to leaf spring clearance. I started thinking about how much more tire we could get in there...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/01/1501:46 AM
Quote: stock fuel tank? Looks like the same gas cap i'm running and i'm sloshing gas everywhere...lol.
Thanks for this post!
Funny you should mention that, same problem on first couple laps. Uncontrollable fuel out the cap issues, and since the spare tire well was a bit crusty anyway...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/01/1502:43 AM
Quote: Yep, I watched Tom race the Valiant back when he first got it back together (running tiny 265/35/18's at the time) and he definitely had one of the top laps compared to most other high budget builds.
Yep Samy was at the Valiants first event, a shakedown run at the Hotchkis NMCA Autocross in Fontana last year. The car finished in the upper third of the Classic car class, and I learned a lot about it.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/01/1502:48 AM
I learned on the positive side that I love the feel of the Borgeson box. For all of its fitment issues, it it simply a better steering feel than my firm feel stage 3 ever was. At this Autocross the alignment was way out of whack, and I discovered that even with a 3.08 rear, first gear is so low (numerically high) in the A833 OD that it is fairly useless at Autocrossing. The whole course was basically run in 2nd gear, at very low RPMs...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/01/1506:23 AM
Next event was one of our local SCCA San Diego autocrosses. We are fortunate to have a big lot and and great group of Classic American Muscle (CAM) cars that show up to each event.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/01/1506:27 AM
The Valiant is still under powered compared to most of these cars, but after a racy alignment, the front grip was much better. I was just starting to play with the Hotchkis/Fox adjustables, at this event. Previously my Barracuda liked a lot of front sway bar but no rear, so I started full stiff on the Valiant front shocks, with both the rear shocks and rear sway bar full soft. Finished third out of thirteen, rear end still felt a bit loose.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/02/1506:58 AM
Quote: Great thread and nice car!
Thanks, hope this isn't boring anyone, just want to share what I've learned so far. Next event was another CAM battle at our local SCCA. I tried some different used tires (265/35/18 Dunlop Z2) and tried midway between firm and soft on rear shocks.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/02/1507:02 AM
Oversteer felt better, I think the car liked the stiffer setting on the shocks. I also think the Dunlops are just a touch stickier than the same size Falken RT615 k, though both tires perform better cool, neither like a lot of abuse. At this event the junkyard 8.8 started acting up and the limited slip was going away early and often. Finished 2nd out of 12 muscle cars, just a half second off 1st...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/02/1511:00 PM
I like these kind of topics and not boring at all.
Only thing I'm (still) wondering about is why you've been running with the bare front on the car? Whenever I see pics of the car it always seems to me like you've been in a frontal crash a day before and decided run it unrepaired anyway. I does however make the car more easily recognizable though..
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/02/1511:02 PM
Quote: I like these kind of topics and not boring at all.
Only thing I'm (still) wondering about is why you've been running with the bare front on the car? Whenever I see pics of the car it always seems to me like you've been in a frontal crash a day before and decided run it unrepaired anyway. I does however make the car more easily recognizable though..
Its a real car now, and trust me, you'll recognize it when you see it
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/03/1512:46 AM
Quote: I like these kind of topics and not boring at all.
Only thing I'm (still) wondering about is why you've been running with the bare front on the car? Whenever I see pics of the car it always seems to me like you've been in a frontal crash a day before and decided run it unrepaired anyway. I does however make the car more easily recognizable though..
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/03/1512:49 AM
Quote:
Quote: I like these kind of topics and not boring at all.
Only thing I'm (still) wondering about is why you've been running with the bare front on the car? Whenever I see pics of the car it always seems to me like you've been in a frontal crash a day before and decided run it unrepaired anyway. I does however make the car more easily recognizable though..
Its a real car now, and trust me, you'll recognize it when you see it
Great question, George of Reiss Racing was going to try and paint it as soon as he had a gap of time in the paint booth. I was trying to keep it as paint-shop ready as possible. You will see in next few posts the results. These updates are from late 2014. For the next CAM event I spent the $200 I should have spent when I bought it rebuilding the junkyard 8.8 rear. New clutches and bigger 31 spline axles from Summit. Much better having the limited slip actually delivering power to BOTH rear wheels. Also trying different used tires this event, moved up to 285/35/18 Hankook R-S3 both front and rear, still on 18x10 wheels.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/03/1512:56 AM
The car handled beautifully, oversteer better still with the bigger Hankooks and the rear shocks full firm. Front turn in on these 285 tires with the Hotchkis TVS was simply the best of any car I've ever driven. You turn the wheel, the car just bites. That being said, I beat everyone who had been beating me, but ran into a Buzzsaw, Reiss Racing had built a custom 3 link rear for Tonys Gen2 Camaro, which he debuted this race, along with his own set of fresher brand new Hankook R-S3 version 2s. Mix that and his 400+ HP, I finished second out of thirteen
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/03/1504:33 AM
The front wheel wells are absolutely maxed out with the 285/35/18 on the 18x10 wheel so for the next event I decided to max out the rear. Sourced some $110 19x10.5 rear wheels on Ebay so I could try the biggest 19" Hankook they make, the 305/30/19. I also decided to go back to soft on the rear shocks, but stiffen up the rear sway bar. I skipped the middle setting on the Hotchkis bar and went straight to full stiff. George and Tony both had motor issues so those Camaros were out, and George co-drove the Valiant. This pic shows how full the wheel wells are now...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/03/1504:36 AM
Success! The oversteer is all but gone, car handles unbelievably. This was a fairly short, tight course, so we were all fairly close together. Finally, after battling all year, the Valiant took the win!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/04/1501:04 AM
Quote:
Quote: Found a 17 Gallon cell on Amazon for $225...
what did you have to fab to mount the tank?
also for the grille are you running the aluminum valiant grill, or the duster style grille?
sweet car, love the steam-rollers
I'll try and get some underside pics of the straps we fabbed up, but they are basic u-shaped out of some 3/16 steel, with mounting tabs so they bolt up from under the floor. Stock Aluminum Valiant grill...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/04/1501:09 AM
Next race was the last of the 2014 season, and the first with no changes to the car, so I really just worked on my driving, trying to push it harder, particularly in the slalom portion. It was a long, fast course so my lower HP would hurt a little, but with the 285/305 Hankooks, I was going to keep the speed up everywhere I could...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/04/1501:19 AM
The Valiant was crazy fast in the slalom, I honestly couldn't get my brain to let me push the car as fast as it could change direction, and now the rear just follows the front, no drama. Valiant blew the the Mustangs, Camaros, Chevelles, etc away this day...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/06/1502:36 AM
Quote: Just awesome!
Thanks! So I literally got the car out of the paint booth Friday night with the first race of 2015 on Sunday. A mad thrash all day Saturday to put the full interior in, bumpers, grills, etc on. I haven't had time yet to take better pics, but I will, for now here is how it looked on Raceday. The front fiberglass bumper I ordered hadn't come in so the one in pics is just temporary!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/06/1502:40 AM
The Valiant again performed and handled better than expected, got new Version 2 Hankook R-S3 200 treadwear tires in the same 285/35/18 Front and 305/30/19 Rear sizes, hopefully to last all season. The Valiant not only beat the 13 other cars in the CAM-T class, but all the smaller, lighter CAM-S cars as well...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/06/1506:29 AM
UGH It must be terrible to race all year long! Nice job it looks like you did very well overall considering almost 200(!) drivers.
Give us the strait poop here : Can you really catch the fast FS drivers in a 50yr old car? STF was FAST, was it a tight handling/momentum course?
my gut feeling has been that the CAM-T index is a bit too steep but then again I'm thinking leaf springs and not the unlimited blank-slate extent that the rules allow.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/06/1508:19 AM
Quote: UGH It must be terrible to race all year long! Nice job it looks like you did very well overall considering almost 200(!) drivers.
Give us the strait poop here : Can you really catch the fast FS drivers in a 50yr old car? STF was FAST, was it a tight handling/momentum course?
my gut feeling has been that the CAM-T index is a bit too steep but then again I'm thinking leaf springs and not the unlimited blank-slate extent that the rules allow.
The index for CAM is certainly not fair compared to the other classes (particularly STF) in my opinion, but of course I have a 240HP leaf spring / torsion bar car, not a race car like the rules (almost) allow. The course was not overly tight at all, but didn't have any true straights either, but the last course last year was pretty wide open, and the Valiant beat them that day as well. I was fortunate enough to best all the late model muscle cars this day in FS, ESP, and CAM-C, the only exception being a very well driven BMW M3 who got me on his last lap. All that being said the Valiant is light and nimble now, changes direction beautifully, and if the next event has a slalom, I'll get the BMW as well....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/06/1509:53 PM
Quote: I was fortunate enough to best all the late model muscle cars this day in FS, ESP, and CAM-C, the only exception being a very well driven BMW M3 who got me on his last lap. All that being said the Valiant is light and nimble now, changes direction beautifully, and if the next event has a slalom, I'll get the BMW as well....
Thanks, that is encouraging! good luck and give-em hell.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/07/1502:01 AM
Quote: Inspiring build, thanks!
Thanks everyone, just decided I'll take it to the National Speedway Motors SCCA Autocross challenge in Crows Landing March 6-8th. Top level competition there with Mary Pozzi, Mike Maier, and Brian Hobaugh signed up
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/23/1502:28 AM
Ok so last Sunday we had a very long, challenging course, and no changes to the Valiant. I didn't drive particularly well, and I figured out afterwards I had left the front shocks on full soft, and it felt a little mushy. That all being said, the car is good enough to win right now even on an off day.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/23/1504:11 AM
Quote: Awesome Tom! What are you weighing in at? I bet "the other guys" were in awe and kicking or throwing stuff after the smack down you put on them!
The other guys keep blaming the big tires and light weight, so I put it on some truck scales, don't know the front/rear, but the total was 3270 lbs with the roll cage, 15 gallons of fuel and no driver. My wheels and tires are not light, probably 220 lbs right there.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/23/1507:13 PM
wow!! un freaking believable! what an awesome car! maybe i missed it, but i just cant get my head around on how you got such large tires to fit up front? what did u do exactly? i want to do that to my 68 cuda!!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/24/1503:41 AM
Quote: wow!! un freaking believable! what an awesome car! maybe i missed it, but i just cant get my head around on how you got such large tires to fit up front? what did u do exactly? i want to do that to my 68 cuda!!
About 2/3 the way down page 1... he talks about stretching out the front fender lip. Some do this with a porta power or bumper jack.
Some folks just push out the fender, which is what he did. The valiant and Dart have different shaped wheel openings than the Barracuda. I have also heard of people using a spacer for the fender support.
Here is a picture of how we rolled the lip on my '68, I have 18x9 with 255/40-18, but a 275/35-18 would fit easily:
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/24/1504:31 AM
Quote:
Quote: wow!! un freaking believable! what an awesome car! maybe i missed it, but i just cant get my head around on how you got such large tires to fit up front? what did u do exactly? i want to do that to my 68 cuda!!
About 2/3 the way down page 1... he talks about stretching out the front fender lip. Some do this with a porta power or bumper jack.
Some folks just push out the fender, which is what he did. The valiant and Dart have different shaped wheel openings than the Barracuda. I have also heard of people using a spacer for the fender support.
Here is a picture of how we rolled the lip on my '68, I have 18x9 with 255/40-18, but a 275/35-18 would fit easily:
Yep just pushed out front fender, cut a bit out of lower fender lips where they go into rockers. Also running 18 x10 +42 offset wheels right now with 3/4 inch of spacers. Fits great!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/25/1506:38 AM
Quote:
Yep just pushed out front fender, cut a bit out of lower fender lips where they go into rockers. Also running 18 x10 +42 offset wheels right now with 3/4 inch of spacers. Fits great!
Question - do your front tires rub the frame in the rear at full lock? With an 18x10 and a 285 I think mine would. May not be that critical, full lock is for parallel parking and U-turns.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/25/1506:42 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Yep just pushed out front fender, cut a bit out of lower fender lips where they go into rockers. Also running 18 x10 +42 offset wheels right now with 3/4 inch of spacers. Fits great!
Question - do your front tires rub the frame in the rear at full lock? With an 18x10 and a 285 I think mine would. May not be that critical, full lock is for parallel parking and U-turns.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 02/25/1507:43 PM
Quote: I like these kind of topics and not boring at all.
Only thing I'm (still) wondering about is why you've been running with the bare front on the car? Whenever I see pics of the car it always seems to me like you've been in a frontal crash a day before and decided run it unrepaired anyway. I does however make the car more easily recognizable though..
They don't race other cars. They just race the track. my/our next Chump car is going to be a 68 Coronet. Not sure yet If we'll use a 318 or 383 yet. In any event if you do want to race other cars make sure you have the front end protected. I can't imagine what this would have looked like w/o our re-engineered bumper system. And yes we did pull it out and get back the next day.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/08/1504:05 AM
With the new Cam class all you have to do is show up at the Autox events closest to you there is the Sac scca chapter and SFR scca chapter. Crows Landing is a National event so you will see some impressive drivers out there. National events are yearly. national events are usually at air fields or large open tracks so there course is almost a road race around cones high speed lots of fun.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/08/1504:33 AM
Quote: With the new Cam class all you have to do is show up at the Autox events closest to you there is the Sac scca chapter and SFR scca chapter. Crows Landing is a National event so you will see some impressive drivers out there. National events are yearly. national events are usually at air fields or large open tracks so there course is almost a road race around cones high speed lots of fun.
Could you post any pics of your friends car that was at the event? Maybe a separate thread with pics of Toms and your friends car from the event?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/08/1506:38 AM
Quote: Could you post any pics of your friends car that was at the event? Maybe a separate thread with pics of Toms and your friends car from the event?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1512:20 AM
Great thread, You have done what I originally set out to do. I caught the auto cross bug 3 years ago. I got to ride in one of the Detroit speed cars with Kyle Tucker. ( Great Guy) I bought a car with the intent to do a budget build and go have some fun. Some where along the way the project got out of hand and its still under construction. I got caught up in needing H.P. numbers. Thought I needed to be in the same H.P range as some of the other cars I see running. You have proved me wrong. So wrong. Great build. Great car. Wish I would have stuck to my original plan.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1501:58 AM
Are you asking about the red mustang coupe. If so I know they are 18s Im pretty sure 18x9 front not sure if the rear was same or a little wider. Tom Rick had to run against Mary she hit a cone and it looked good for Rick for about a second then he hit a cone. Pretty cazy for crappy street tires.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1504:13 AM
Quote: Great thread, You have done what I originally set out to do. I caught the auto cross bug 3 years ago. I got to ride in one of the Detroit speed cars with Kyle Tucker. ( Great Guy) I bought a car with the intent to do a budget build and go have some fun. Some where along the way the project got out of hand and its still under construction. I got caught up in needing H.P. numbers. Thought I needed to be in the same H.P range as some of the other cars I see running. You have proved me wrong. So wrong. Great build. Great car. Wish I would have stuck to my original plan.
I Hear ya, so easy to chase big numbers, but what I learned this weekend against the big names is that I still have areas I can improve myself as a driver and improve the car, while it's still down on HP...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1504:57 AM
Quote: Are you asking about the red mustang coupe. If so I know they are 18s Im pretty sure 18x9 front not sure if the rear was same or a little wider. Tom Rick had to run against Mary she hit a cone and it looked good for Rick for about a second then he hit a cone. Pretty cazy for crappy street tires.
Joe that's awesome! Rick did a great job showing how much fun you can have, even when just getting started at Autocross!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1505:24 AM
So it was a reality check for both me and the Valiant this weekend. Going on the road and facing three of the very best drivers in our little sport with a 250HP 3250lb torsion bar and leaf spring car, I guess I was expecting too much. I wanted the Valiant (and myself) to be competitive, and realistically we just aren't at that highest level right now. Mary Pozzi with her 73 Camaro and Mike Maiers Mustang ran a best time Sat of 55.7. Hobaugh ran a 57.4 in the Wilwood Mustang. I ran a 58.4, which would have been good enough for 5th, except they add your best AM time to your best afternoon time so I finished 6th, just ahead of Gregg Blundells very fast Camaro. I know the Valiant is down on HP, but I also know I need to step up my driving....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1506:17 AM
Quote: So it was a reality check for both me and the Valiant this weekend. Going on the road and facing three of the very best drivers in our little sport with a 250HP 3250lb torsion bar and leaf spring car, I guess I was expecting too much. I wanted the Valiant (and myself) to be competitive, and realistically we just aren't at that highest level right now. Mary Pozzi with her 73 Camaro and Mike Maiers Mustang ran a best time Sat of 55.7. Hobaugh ran a 57.4 in the Wilwood Mustang. I ran a 58.4, which would have been good enough for 5th, except they add your best AM time to your best afternoon time so I finished 6th, just ahead of Gregg Blundells very fast Camaro. I know the Valiant is down on HP, but I also know I need to step up my driving....
Your times with the power you have are encouraging. It has been a bit of an education following this thread. Man - I need to get my car finished. Then practice my driving of course. Scott Smith needs to get out there and start running! He has a similar set up to yours and a bit more under the hood in a '68 that used to belong to Tim Werner.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1507:22 AM
Quote:
Quote: So it was a reality check for both me and the Valiant this weekend. Going on the road and facing three of the very best drivers in our little sport with a 250HP 3250lb torsion bar and leaf spring car, I guess I was expecting too much. I wanted the Valiant (and myself) to be competitive, and realistically we just aren't at that highest level right now. Mary Pozzi with her 73 Camaro and Mike Maiers Mustang ran a best time Sat of 55.7. Hobaugh ran a 57.4 in the Wilwood Mustang. I ran a 58.4, which would have been good enough for 5th, except they add your best AM time to your best afternoon time so I finished 6th, just ahead of Gregg Blundells very fast Camaro. I know the Valiant is down on HP, but I also know I need to step up my driving....
Your times with the power you have are encouraging. It has been a bit of an education following this thread. Man - I need to get my car finished. Then practice my driving of course. Scott Smith needs to get out there and start running! He has a similar set up to yours and a bit more under the hood in a '68 that used to belong to Tim Werner.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1512:15 PM
I would bet the other 5 cars had not a single factory component in their suspensions. And I also know they all had at least 200hp on ya. They're the ones that should be hangin their heads....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1504:06 PM
Quote: I would bet the other 5 cars had not a single factory component in their suspensions. And I also know they all had at least 200hp on ya. They're the ones that should be hangin their heads....
I think 200 HP short would be a low estimate.
Probably have to step up and get some light weight wheels and a little more power to crack the top 3. Very easily done, even with the shortblock you probably already have in the car.
Great to see the car competitive, good job. But, you know, you probably would have won with a coilover conversion...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1507:11 PM
Thanks for the encouragement guys, I do think at the beginning of the course before the first cone, there was a 0-60 run for me (probably 0-75mph for them). I might have been giving up 1- 1.5 seconds there. The rest of the track was not very HP dependent. I have been resisting forcing myself to left foot brake til now but after watching Maier/Pozzi, I know there was time to be gained by doing it, and I should be able to keep the car calmer during transitions if I do left foot brake...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1507:19 PM
I always left foot braked, ALWAYS. You can hold the gas down slightly as needed while braking and then have a better/quicker acceleration going thru and coming out of the corners. Yes time is lost every time you switch the right foot from gas to brake, and back. That time adds up quickly. And there is no sudden jerky acceleration that can happen with right foot braking.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1507:37 PM
Oh ya, forgot to include;
There are always exceptions, like a high speed course where you HAVE to change gears up and down for the straights and corners. I've never been on one of those type courses. And my AMX has great bottom end and I could proceed from a near stop in 2nd gear. Even a dead stop a couple times. AMC motors where known for their bottom end power/torque.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1507:52 PM
Tom you weren't there to see it but on Marys first run against Rick she spun out on the last set of tight turns behind the finish. So on her second run with Rick following she hit a cone early on after the fast s turns. She may have felt like she had to push and make a perfect run as Rick was a unknown driver. Oh yah I don't think she paid much attention to the performance tires Rick was running.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/09/1511:56 PM
Tom -- you did great! That's the competition you want to measure yourself against. The top cars, especially Maier/Pozzi, are professionally setup and have been fine-tuned for many years before you, and those drivers have many years of highest national SCCA-type Solo/autocross experience. Your car is and can be a top contender... but the CAM class is becoming a $$$ class, in my opinion... as its similar to C/Prepared, except 200 TW tires and licensed/insured. Lightest-weight (3000 lbs?... and let's see the weight results at the track/event), high HP/torque, hi-winding RPM engines (avoid shifting if/whenever possible for smoothness), stickiest tires, and especially driver's expertise will result in the best results. Learning the best placement of the car at every location of the course is critical, and of course the track layout has to be memorized with precision in your mind before each run... knowing where to be before you get there and far ahead (speed reading a course in your mind)... concentration mandatory.
Placing high as you did is very comendable! CONGRATS!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/10/1512:44 AM
Quote: Tom -- you did great! That's the competition you want to measure yourself against. The top cars, especially Maier/Pozzi, are professionally setup and have been fine-tuned for many years before you, and those drivers have many years of highest national SCCA-type Solo/autocross experience. Your car is and can be a top contender... but the CAM class is becoming a $$$ class, in my opinion... as its similar to C/Prepared, except 200 TW tires and licensed/insured. Lightest-weight (3000 lbs?... and let's see the weight results at the track/event), high HP/torque, hi-winding RPM engines (avoid shifting if/whenever possible for smoothness), stickiest tires, and especially driver's expertise will result in the best results. Learning the best placement of the car at every location of the course is critical, and of course the track layout has to be memorized with precision in your mind before each run... knowing where to be before you get there and far ahead (speed reading a course in your mind)... concentration mandatory.
Placing high as you did is very comendable! CONGRATS!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/10/1505:56 AM
Quote: OK - missed that. Wow, that was quick. I had the impression Scott was going to hold on to it.
I bowed out of that (awesome car) sooner than I ever expected because a car I've been after (attached pic)finally became available and I had to choose just one to hang on to. I'll join the fray again at a later date with a different A-body build of my own.
I'll say this much, that little red Valiant SCREAMS on the track, a bit of sorting out, some better wheels and tires, and that thing can play with the best of them.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/10/1507:48 AM
Quote:
Quote: OK - missed that. Wow, that was quick. I had the impression Scott was going to hold on to it.
I bowed out of that (awesome car) sooner than I ever expected because a car I've been after (attached pic)finally became available and I had to choose just one to hang on to. I'll join the fray again at a later date with a different A-body build of my own.
I'll say this much, that little red Valiant SCREAMS on the track, a bit of sorting out, some better wheels and tires, and that thing can play with the best of them.
Scott- Is that your buddy's from Winfield that I met a few years back when I was dropping those SBP discs for you?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/10/1505:32 PM
I am going to try and post some pictures of the competion at Crows landing. By the way there is a regular Scca event back at Crows landing this weekend for anyone wanting to check it out I don't think many Cam cars will show as it still needs more interest the word needs to get out and people need to start participating including myself.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/10/1506:56 PM
Nice pics Joe! I found the official results link, the good thing was the Valiants 58.4 beat all the CAM-C late model cars, and a few CAM-S Vettes and a fake Cobra as well...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/26/1509:51 PM
Thanks! So the following Saturday I went to a speed limit racing event at Camarillo airport. It was HOT so I was expecting great things from the Hankooks and the newly paved blacktop surface. Unfortunately the Valiant just felt loose all day. I tried adjusting shocks firm to soft and back but it just felt uncomfortable. Course was super tight in a couple spots (low speed u-turn) and the gearing of the A833 OD wasn't helping, first was too high, second too low. Best times I saw for Brian Hobaugh in his Z06 Vette was 42.4, Greg Thurmond in his new Z06/64 Vette hybrid 43.1, me in the Valiant 44.8...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/26/1511:56 PM
Quote:
Quote: Sounds like you need a standard ratio 833 Tom as you've been complaining about that OD trans since I first met you.
I may have finally made a deal on one Samy!
Nice! I should be going on Sunday but I may not be racing. I ordered my ticket too late and they said I had to cancel it. So I'm going to try going early to get a racing spot (she said there were 3-4 available). If not, I'm probably just going to buy a participant ticket.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/27/1512:08 AM
Quote:
Nice! I should be going on Sunday but I may not be racing. I ordered my ticket too late and they said I had to cancel it. So I'm going to try going early to get a racing spot (she said there were 3-4 available). If not, I'm probably just going to buy a participant ticket.
Bring a helmet, you can ride in the Valiant as often as you want!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/27/1512:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Nice! I should be going on Sunday but I may not be racing. I ordered my ticket too late and they said I had to cancel it. So I'm going to try going early to get a racing spot (she said there were 3-4 available). If not, I'm probably just going to buy a participant ticket.
Bring a helmet, you can ride in the Valiant as often as you want!
I was hoping for a loaner helmet at the event. Lol.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/27/1501:57 AM
Nevermind. They called me and told me I could purchase a ticket so I'll be running my tC! Hopefully we're in different run groups. I may go to Bert's Automall to see if they have a Helmet.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/27/1506:57 PM
Next day was our 3rd local CAM event of the season. This was our lowest turnout as we had two guys up in Pomona at the Hotchkis muscle car Autocross and one guy in Scottsdale at the Goodguys event. It was HOT, and the Hankooks loved it, Valiant was happy again, however the competition is about to get tougher, three of the Mustang guys are all getting some serious tire upgrades for the next event...
Bryce is a pretty darn good driver he really flogs that thing. It makes 375 HP and only weighs 2650lb. The Valiant is 600 lb heavier, makes 2/3 the HP, and is riding a 6 race winning streak against him..
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/29/1504:16 AM
Ya you're not kidding, the Qualcomm parking lot literally falls apart as you drive on it! Nevertheless, the SCCA national tour came down last weekend, and Mary Pozzi in her Camaro to attempt to win her 12th national title. The format would add our best times from only 3 laps Saturday to our best time from 3 laps Sunday to produce a winner...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/29/1504:22 AM
Unfortunately they had the CAM cars run first thing in the AM! I know it sounds like whining but the truth is Mary's Falkens like the cool, and my Hankooks like the heat. Any other run group would have at least given me a fighting chance/ dose of confidence. The course was fast and easy to figure out, the Valiant felt loose in the cold, particularly the first two laps. I was very happy the Valiant squeaked out 2nd place, only behind Mary by 1.3 seconds...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/29/1503:52 PM
Quote: Unfortunately they had the CAM cars run first thing in the AM! I know it sounds like whining but the truth is Mary's Falkens like the cool, and my Hankooks like the heat. Any other run group would have at least given me a fighting chance/ dose of confidence. The course was fast and easy to figure out, the Valiant felt loose in the cold, particularly the first two laps. I was very happy the Valiant squeaked out 2nd place, only behind Mary by 1.3 seconds...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 03/31/1506:46 AM
Do you have any more pictures or details of how your wheel wells/ opening were modified? I'd like to do something similar to my Demon I'm building and could use some tips.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/17/1504:55 PM
Ok so next up was the NMCA Hotchkis Autocross at Fontana. Short but fast course. Car felt good, but in these photos I'm noticing more body lean than than is ideal. This was with full stiff on the sway bars and the shocks.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/17/1505:01 PM
The tires were gripping the surface so well the car actually pulled the front wheel on a couple turns... This is where I blame the passenger (MuuMuu).... Just kidding Samy, had a blast with you riding!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/17/1505:06 PM
Unfortunately the finish of this course is what cost me the win, the car could carry so much speed at the finish that the braking area was insufficient to get the car stopped before the "DQ" cones. I ran two laps fast enough to win, but got DQd because I hit a cone after the stop area. The stock 10.75 73+ discs have to go. I ended up in second out of 14 cars by .009, yes 9 thousandths of a second...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/17/1505:51 PM
You forgot to tell them that you got an award that evening for most DQ's. He blew straight through the brake zone about 4 or 5 times. I think I ate more cones then him but I kept my car inside the course.
It was quite amazing, all of the old muscle kept blowing through the brake zone. Most people had to let off right at the end of the slalom because there would have been no way of stopping in time. Although, all of the newer Camaros and Mustangs (4000 lb cars) had plenty of room to stop adequately. Also, the old muscle seemed to have just as good of times as the new muscle.
And you can see my extremely large bicep in some of your photos!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/18/1501:44 AM
Originally Posted By Dan@Hotchkis
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Originally Posted By Dan@Hotchkis
Roll Center favors the Vette. A Lot
Ya whose idea was this Valiant thing anyway?
Well quit messing around with date coded stainless hardware and get YOUR Vette going!
Woah woah woah... From what I heard that is a pristine, numbers matching car. You can't just tear up such a fine example of history and Corvettitude. People will murder him!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/20/1509:18 PM
Tom -- since you're car is primarily a smooth-pavement autocross purpose-built car, I highly suggest you get bigger TBs (~1.18 at the minimum, as well as eventually try 1.22, 1.24.. don't make quick decisions.... work with them for a few events/or a season or two, as well as perhaps stiffen the rear leafs... stiffer shocks, bigger sway bars, balance the weight at the corners in competition-ready weight.. with the driver and the approximate load (fuel) you'd be typically running.... it becomes a complete package to be the goal. Remember... your car runs on smooth flat surfaces and is autocross competition intended. Your tires are saying "help me stick so stiffen me up.... prevent excessive lift/dive".
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/21/1504:04 PM
Originally Posted By Mopar Mitch
Tom -- since you're car is primarily a smooth-pavement autocross purpose-built car, I highly suggest you get bigger TBs (~1.18 at the minimum, as well as eventually try 1.22, 1.24.. don't make quick decisions.... work with them for a few events/or a season or two, as well as perhaps stiffen the rear leafs... stiffer shocks, bigger sway bars, balance the weight at the corners in competition-ready weight.. with the driver and the approximate load (fuel) you'd be typically running.... it becomes a complete package to be the goal. Remember... your car runs on smooth flat surfaces and is autocross competition intended. Your tires are saying "help me stick so stiffen me up.... prevent excessive lift/dive".
Makes since Mitch, I think bigger Torsion bars are the next logical step. On an A-body, just how jarring is the ride with a 1.18?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/21/1504:33 PM
Tom... If you're concerned with ride (such as stiff), then forget it. As I said, you are running on smooth surfaces during the autocross events... no need to be concerned about ride ... its not bad, its not unbarable to drive on the street (highway driving is best!).. In pylon racing, the car needs to be as flat as possible for best transient response... leaning takes away from the transient response... look at the C/Prepared cars.. the top cars in the country run far more stiffer setups than what you and I have.
Brian Barcia runs 1.18 TBs on his GT1/Vintage W2W road race 67 BCuda fastback... he could still go stiffer, but, he's balanced the stup and adjusts his driving accordingly.... he may eventually make future changes, such as 1.22 tbs from FF.
John Sandberg runs 1.14 tbs on his original owner street 67 BCuda fastback Formula S car.. ride is great (245-50-16 f/r, stiffened leafs, konis).
Needless to say, when driving on the "street", we have to avoid pot-holes, etc.. and choose the road that offer the smoother conditions. A few bumps here and there are barable, but we always want to avoid harsh roads. Highways are much smoother, in general, than "streets".
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/21/1505:14 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Originally Posted By amxautox
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
This is why I'm not a numbers matching guy.... I just want to race!
Is that why you have numbers, that don't match, on the doors?
I should have known it was going to be a bad day when someone stole my number!
Ya that sucks, stolen numbers. One day at an autocross I 'blew the number off' the door of the SS/T, (my pickup). The course worker had to bring it over to me. Talk about a 'high speed' run! Oh ya, the numbers were decales on magnetic rubber. :-)
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/21/1509:02 PM
Ya more concerned with going so stiff that the car feels like it's jarring itself violently on every little imperfection. When I forget to turn the shocks back to soft and drive back from track on full stiff its borderline uncomfortable. I'm hoping that with a 1.18ish bar and the shocks on soft it would still seem "street able".
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/22/1503:23 AM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Ya more concerned with going so stiff that the car feels like it's jarring itself violently on every little imperfection. When I forget to turn the shocks back to soft and drive back from track on full stiff its borderline uncomfortable. I'm hoping that with a 1.18ish bar and the shocks on soft it would still seem "street able".
At Hotchkis East, they couldn't believe how smooth the ride was in my Dart with 1.18's. That was with the shocks on the middle setting. I drove it a little bit and agreed, the ride was very good for that size bar.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/22/1504:47 PM
Tom -- the ride with stiffer TBs area not jarring stiff with every nick in the road... there are ways to smoth the ride such as by simply adjusting the tire psi to a lower amount than what would be used during competition runs; or, for the "street", use a taller sidewall tire (I have 255-60-15 front, 275-60-15 rear for the "Street" cruising days).... and my 255-50-16 f/r HPDE/HSAX tires are just fine on the street/hwy (30 f, 28 r psi... competition 44 f, 40 r psi).
Ask anyone who has driven my car (1.24 TBs) on the street/hwy, as well as raced it, and they will tell you that the ride is fine... its not bad at all.. very enjoyable... very flat in handling and transient response.... very little lift/dive or lean. My Konis do a great job with the setup... I've played a lot with their adjustability over the past years to my satisfaction... granted, today there are other choices in preferred multi-adjustable shocks, and I'm actually considering them.
For the A-bodies, being lighter than the b/e bods, in my opinion from those i know with A-bods, a~1.14-1.18 TB is not a harsh ride at all on the street/hwy.
I've said many times before... don't be afraid of larger TBs... you'll realize any increase made over the factory stock size will be an improvement, then... if you start small you'll only come to realize that you probably should've gone larger.
If driving over rough roads/surfaces is the norm, then use a little softer TB (1.0~1.1), but if the typical and intended driving is on smooth non-bumpy surfaces (AX parking lots/airports, W2W road race courses, etc), then step up.. progressively you'll see the desired results.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/23/1508:24 PM
The 1.24" TB for E/B bodies ia rated at 425 # /inch. They were available from a company called California Moparts/Suspension back in the 80s... ahead of their time, unfortunately they went out-of-business.
FF can make 1.20, 1.22, 1.24 upon speacial request... check with them... last I knew (~1-year ago) they had some 1.22 aside from a small production run.
Even at 425 # /inch, these are not as stiff as you might think. The factory Dodge/Plymouth TransAm cars used larger TBs in their race cars.... ~1.45 diamter (makes the 1.24 pretty small and weak by comparison).
The factory ABE hex openings are 1.25, thus, 1.24 is largest to fit ... unless changing the hex opening to a larger one, such as C-body or truck size.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/26/1512:17 AM
Originally Posted By Mopar Mitch
Tom -- the ride with stiffer TBs area not jarring stiff with every nick in the road... there are ways to smoth the ride such as by simply adjusting the tire psi to a lower amount than what would be used during competition runs; or, for the "street", use a taller sidewall tire (I have 255-60-15 front, 275-60-15 rear for the "Street" cruising days).... and my 255-50-16 f/r HPDE/HSAX tires are just fine on the street/hwy (30 f, 28 r psi... competition 44 f, 40 r psi).
Ask anyone who has driven my car (1.24 TBs) on the street/hwy, as well as raced it, and they will tell you that the ride is fine... its not bad at all.. very enjoyable... very flat in handling and transient response.... very little lift/dive or lean. My Konis do a great job with the setup... I've played a lot with their adjustability over the past years to my satisfaction... granted, today there are other choices in preferred multi-adjustable shocks, and I'm actually considering them.
For the A-bodies, being lighter than the b/e bods, in my opinion from those i know with A-bods, a~1.14-1.18 TB is not a harsh ride at all on the street/hwy.
I've said many times before... don't be afraid of larger TBs... you'll realize any increase made over the factory stock size will be an improvement, then... if you start small you'll only come to realize that you probably should've gone larger.
If driving over rough roads/surfaces is the norm, then use a little softer TB (1.0~1.1), but if the typical and intended driving is on smooth non-bumpy surfaces (AX parking lots/airports, W2W road race courses, etc), then step up.. progressively you'll see the desired results.
Great Mitch, thanks, that's what I wanted to hear!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/26/1512:24 AM
So my next race was the Goodguys Del Mar Autocross. This is usually one of my favorite events as we get really top-level competition with some really good driver/car combos. The course is jammed into a small area of the parking lot, so it ends up being a drag race, brake slam, u-turn event. that being said I always did better here in the past than the old 69 Barracuda had a right to. I should have known I was going to have a bad day when the officials deemed my new Bridgestone RE-71R front tires illegal, since they didn't have treadwear printed on them. So I had the wife schlep my old Hankooks over, one with quite a selection of flatspots...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/26/1512:30 AM
Ugh. This is the last time I will complain about the A833 OD gearing, cause I'm putting in a "normal" A833 next month, but it was terrible. Too fast for 1st or lugging in 2nd. I finally got frustrated and started shifting back down to 1st on every corner. Ran my fastest time with 12 shifts on a 60 second course. Three Mustangs I usually beat at our local SCCA events finished 5th, 8th, and 10th. I finished a hugely disappointing 12th out of 36 cars...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/26/1504:41 PM
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
So who was the little darling that disqualified your tires? Does he drive a Camaro or a Mustang?
Actually it was the Goodguys tech guy. I can understand they have rules, but if the SCCA can figure out theses tires are 200 treadwear, Gooodguys should also...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/26/1504:52 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
So who was the little darling that disqualified your tires? Does he drive a Camaro or a Mustang?
Actually it was the Goodguys tech guy. I can understand they have rules, but if the SCCA can figure out theses tires are 200 treadwear, Gooodguys should also...
Couldn't you have just googled it for him on your phone? It should have only taken about a minute or two.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/26/1505:17 PM
Originally Posted By MuuMuu101
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
So who was the little darling that disqualified your tires? Does he drive a Camaro or a Mustang?
Actually it was the Goodguys tech guy. I can understand they have rules, but if the SCCA can figure out theses tires are 200 treadwear, Gooodguys should also...
Couldn't you have just googled it for him on your phone? It should have only taken about a minute or two.
Did that Samy, but he said "If it's not on the tire, it's not legal". $560 wasted, at least as far as Goodguys is concerned...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/26/1511:29 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
So who was the little darling that disqualified your tires? Does he drive a Camaro or a Mustang?
Actually it was the Goodguys tech guy. I can understand they have rules, but if the SCCA can figure out theses tires are 200 treadwear, Gooodguys should also...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 04/27/1504:32 AM
I had to run my Hankook RS-3, but the tires I was going to run in front were a pair of new Bridgestone RE-71R. They were so new they hadn't determined treadwear when they were produced so treadwear was blank on tire. Now they are officially rated 200.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/02/1507:17 PM
So after getting beat by 3 Mustang guys at Goodguys, and one at Hotchkis, it was time to get back to racing in the afternoon heat at Qualcomm. Ian in his 66 Blue Mustang was fully expecting to win as he had beat me at those two events, added better tires, and a full Hotchkis package to his car...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/02/1507:21 PM
What he forgot is that he still hadn't beat the Valiant at Qualcomm, and the old guy wasn't going to just hand him a victory. The Hankooks were heated and happy....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/02/1510:37 PM
Thanks Samy, Emil, and Wade! It's been a lot of fun so far this year wheelin this Valiant around, but I'm planning some mid-season upgrades in May to see if I can get it fast enough for Optima.
The Barracuda was cool, young guy who's Father apparently owns a new Fuel Injection company called "FI Tech". It had some suspension upgrades and sticky front tires, but drag radials in back. You can definitely see the dividing lines in times (6 seconds between 8th and 9th) between the guys who do this a lot with sorted cars and those just starting to get cars into it...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/02/1510:47 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
...
The Barracuda was cool, young guy who's Father apparently owns a new Fuel Injection company called "FI Tech". It had some suspension upgrades and sticky front tires, but drag radials in back. ...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/03/1512:52 AM
Ya three of the cars that were there are their test cars, A heavily raced El Camino, the 72 Barracuda, which is a blur in the background of the photo of Mike Youngs 65 Mustang...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/04/1510:42 PM
So I've decided to try and address some of the shortcomings in May and get the Valiants performance absolutely optimized to the extent financially practical.
1. Better front Brakes! I was able to find a no-longer produced set of AR engineering caliper brackets so I upgraded to the 11.75 inch 1978 Córdoba rotors, and Wilwood 4 piston dynalite calipers. Total cost right at $500. The braking seemed improved already, but I have not had it at a track that demands a lot of braking yet.
2. Better Gearing! I bought a used A833 that I believe has "normal" 2.66 first gear gearing. This will get installed later in the month...
3. Higher spring rates... The car just looks like it leans ALOT in some corners, particularly when the sticky tires are gripping well, so I am thinking of jumping to 1.12 or 1.18 bars in front, and trying to figure out how to up the Hotchkis rear leaf rates in the rear... Any ideas?
I finally had it correctly corner weighed, with a full tank, battery in the trunk, but no driver...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/04/1511:22 PM
I plan to add lower leafs out of an old set of Mopar circle track springs and at least one,maybe 2, half leafs to my Hotchkis packs. Also have a Hellwig adjustable tubular E body rear swaybar to take it from there. Time will tell.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/04/1511:51 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
3. Higher spring rates... The car just looks like it leans ALOT in some corners, particularly when the sticky tires are gripping well, so I am thinking of jumping to 1.12 or 1.18 bars in front, and trying to figure out how to up the Hotchkis rear leaf rates in the rear... Any ideas?
Is it important to increase spring rate or total roll rate? If the answer is total roll rate you can add rear bar could you not?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/05/1512:45 AM
Originally Posted By 68cuda440
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
3. Higher spring rates... The car just looks like it leans ALOT in some corners, particularly when the sticky tires are gripping well, so I am thinking of jumping to 1.12 or 1.18 bars in front, and trying to figure out how to up the Hotchkis rear leaf rates in the rear... Any ideas?
Is it important to increase spring rate or total roll rate? If the answer is total roll rate you can add rear bar could you not?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/05/1512:50 AM
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
I plan to add lower leafs out of an old set of Mopar circle track springs and at least one,maybe 2, half leafs to my Hotchkis packs. Also have a Hellwig adjustable tubular E body rear swaybar to take it from there. Time will tell.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/05/1501:55 AM
They would but for the money , if you have time, I would just add a leaf. Also since our current leafs have 0 arch those things are not very effective.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/05/1502:02 AM
My understanding is most of the leaf's spring rate is in the portion behind the axle. The Hellwig product you posted helps with axle wrap more so than increasing spring rate.
Which front sway bar? Hotchkis 67-72 a body bar? With rubber bushings? How tight are the end links?
You should consider swapping to a ball joint style sway bar end link. Really helped with the lean on mine. Doesn't change your roll rates, just brings the sway bar in sooner.
I agree with upping your spring rates as well. Which you are doing. May just need to buy new leaf springs though.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/05/1502:27 AM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
3. Higher spring rates... The car just looks like it leans ALOT in some corners, particularly when the sticky tires are gripping well, so I am thinking of jumping to 1.12 or 1.18 bars in front, and trying to figure out how to up the Hotchkis rear leaf rates in the rear... Any ideas?
What kind of chassis stiffening has been done to the car? Looks like it has a cage, which obviously helps a bunch. But call me crazy, it almost looks like chassis compliance is adding into some of that roll when the pic is blown up, like the bottom of the door is kicking out.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/05/1503:17 AM
Originally Posted By Uhcoog1
My understanding is most of the leaf's spring rate is in the portion behind the axle. The Hellwig product you posted helps with axle wrap more so than increasing spring rate.
Which front sway bar? Hotchkis 67-72 a body bar? With rubber bushings? How tight are the end links?
You should consider swapping to a ball joint style sway bar end link. Really helped with the lean on mine. Doesn't change your roll rates, just brings the sway bar in sooner.
I agree with upping your spring rates as well. Which you are doing. May just need to buy new leaf springs though.
I have the 73+ Hotchkis bar with urethane bushings
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/05/1503:20 AM
Originally Posted By GoodysGotaCuda
What kind of chassis stiffening has been done to the car? Looks like it has a cage, which obviously helps a bunch. But call me crazy, it almost looks like chassis compliance is adding into some of that roll when the pic is blown up, like the bottom of the door is kicking out.
I agree, roll bar and subframe connectors may not be enough with this much tire/G's
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/09/1505:14 AM
Hey Tom! Great job so far this year. I was looking at your pics, and wondered if you are running A-body shackles, and rubber or urethane bushings on them? Seems like a bit of side to side movement on the rear. I run B-body shackles and urethane bushings on mine to minimize this. Rick
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/16/1504:01 PM
Originally Posted By norcal-fjo
Hey Tom! Great job so far this year. I was looking at your pics, and wondered if you are running A-body shackles, and rubber or urethane bushings on them? Seems like a bit of side to side movement on the rear. I run B-body shackles and urethane bushings on mine to minimize this. Rick
Thanks Rick, I have Hotchkis shackles with Urethane, I'm not sure if there is a way to tighten them up. Have you been Autocrossing the Dart lately?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/16/1504:06 PM
Our next San Diego SCCA event was on the fast side of Qualcomm, and it was a good course, all the top CAM-T guys were there, including a very quick 427 LS powered Ridetech 68 Camaro that the week before finished 4th in class at the Vegas Optima... Always fun to have high dollar/proven fast visitors come down to our house...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/16/1508:31 PM
The Valiant had the new Wilwood Dynalite calipers and Córdoba 11.75 rotors for the first time, and they felt pretty good, not a lot of heavy braking zones this time so it's hard to give a full evaluation. I also ran the front 275/35/18 Bridgestone RE-71R on an 18x10 inch wheel instead of my 285/35 Hankook V2s this time, since the Hankooks seem to be going away. The Bridgestones felt great, but the Hankooks on the rear felt loose. A lot of my competitors said their cars felt loose as well so some of it may have been the track, lots of off-camber turns, tough for muscle cars. My co-driver did really well and finished 3rd in a tough field, and we kept the interloper Camaro in 4th so he wouldn't think we were easy targets compared to the Optima crowd. I narrowly held off the newly Hotchkissed 66 Mustang for the win...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/16/1510:27 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Originally Posted By amxautox
Originally Posted By 68cuda440
You can run a Watt's link or even a panhard on a leaf car.
I have a panhard bar on my AMX. Works great. Doesn't upset anything, some people have said that it would on a leaf spring car.
So how much will either help rear roll?
Rear roll is controlled by spring rate, and anti-sway bar rate, with properly matched shocks. With the tire air-pressure, side wall height and stiffness having some effect, which also works with the shocks. The panhard bar, and Watts links are mostly for side to side control, neither has any real up and down control of the vehicle. Keeping the car's center-line and rearend's center-line in line.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/16/1511:11 PM
Originally Posted By amxautox
Rear roll is controlled by spring rate, and anti-sway bar rate, with properly matched shocks. With the tire air-pressure, side wall height and stiffness having some effect, which also works with the shocks. The panhard bar, and Watts links are mostly for side to side control, neither has any real up and down control of the vehicle. Keeping the car's center-line and rearend's center-line in line.
By feel I didn't think I was having a problem with side control, and Im not sure if the lean in general is being caused more by the front or the rear. Does anyone know if there are front or rear sway bars out there that will reduce roll more than the Hotchkis 73+ kit?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/16/1511:39 PM
Maybe put some stuff like soft wax glued to the inside of the fender lips. Then measure the space between the tire and wax. Then take a lap or 2. Then measure the gap to see how much wax is rubbed off. That should tell you how much the rearend is moving to each side.
Or maybe have someone with a good movie/vid camera that can stand on each side of the course, and can take a vid of the rear tires as you go around the corners. Then watch the vid to see if you can tell how far the car's rearend/fender lips is moving side to side in relation to the tires/rearend. A good enough camera so you can watch it in really slow motion and still have a sharp picture.
From the 2 pictures in your last reply, I'd say the rearend is moving 2" side to side, maybe.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/17/1512:18 AM
Originally Posted By amxautox
Maybe put some stuff like soft wax glued to the inside of the fender lips. Then measure the space between the tire and wax. Then take a lap or 2. Then measure the gap to see how much wax is rubbed off. That should tell you how much the rearend is moving to each side.
Or maybe have someone with a good movie/vid camera that can stand on each side of the course, and can take a vid of the rear tires as you go around the corners. Then watch the vid to see if you can tell how far the car's rearend/fender lips is moving side to side in relation to the tires/rearend. A good enough camera so you can watch it in really slow motion and still have a sharp picture.
From the 2 pictures in your last reply, I'd say the rearend is moving 2" side to side, maybe.
Go Pro or XD mini cam....
My rear sway bar is disconnected so that is what looks like is flopping around back there. But you can see the distance the sway bar arm separates from the dog bone link. Seems like about 3/8" to 1/2"
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/17/1505:25 AM
Tom if we were closer I would loan you my 1.18" bars and my Hellwig 7/8" rear bar in that order. I cant wait to get my combo on the road, have a bunch of little stuff to do yet. But back to your axle movement, I think some rear sliders would make a big difference. They take the shackle flex out of the equation.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/17/1506:19 AM
With a full length panhard bar, the point where it crosses the centerline of the car is the roll center height. So moving it up and down changes the roll center height which changes the roll couple (roll resistance).
So the height you put the panhard bar totally effects roll.
In Nascar Cup when they move the "bar" up and down (a short J-bar panhard bar) they are changing roll center height and changing oversteer/understeer
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/18/1503:57 AM
Originally Posted By amxautox
I have a panhard bar on my AMX. Works great. Doesn't upset anything, some people have said that it would on a leaf spring car.
I think it will dictate the rear roll center which will affect how the car behaves on some level, but yes, it should not affect roll rate.
I am considering a Watts on my car, it will allow me to run more tire without rubbing the fender.
As for bigger than a '73 bar, you can step up to running a tubular 1.5" bar with adjustable arms, that will require some fabrication to mount up. If you do a 2" tube with bushings to mount it, then want to go to a larger or smaller bar later you can use the same mount, just change the ID of the bushings to match. Not sure what bar that would dictate on the rear. I imagine to get what I want I will probably have to make it anyway. I will start out with a 1-1/8" '73 style bar on my car on the front and no bar on the rear and see how it does, then go from there.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/19/1501:37 AM
Thanks Mitch and everybody else, I'm going to keep researching ways to stiffen this thing up a bit. It could be worse, I found this old Barracuda pic... I do like the Panhard idea, just have to see what I can find/make work. Next race May 31!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/21/1503:55 AM
Hi Tom. Congratulations on your performance so far! Looking great. I have been running the Dart in CAM-T, and I am leading the points right now in the Sacramento chapter. Before we get too excited, note that there are only seven cars in the class so far, and one got no points (non spec tires I think)so no big deal, but good so far. As far as your rear side movement, it may be less than the pictures seem, but it it does promote oversteer on quick transitions, so you might visit the "tightening" idea. The problem I have found with the 73 style front sway bar is; none of the bars I have looked at, install at anything over 50%. They all seem to tie in to the std sway bar tabs, and that's no good. My bar is installed at 70%, and I wanted to try to improve that! It will take a VERY large bar to achieve the roll rate you want at 50%. I want to change to the 73 crossmember also, but it looks like I may have to go to a custom "race type" bar. (3 pc design). Take care, and thanks for making us proud. Rick.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/21/1507:21 AM
Rick, I am excited, 7 cars is a full class, where can we see results? Did you get tires? I put the pic below of your car, and I agree on the sway bar vs K member, I was actually thinking of going back to the earlier 67-72 so I could go with a different sway bar...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/22/1506:38 AM
Tom, I just finished running the nostalgia drags at Eagle Field, so my car still has the rallye wheels on it. I have the Dunlop star spec 2 on my autoX wheels, and they seem to work fine. I really don't have anything to compare them to, being my first set of "race" tires though. They are small at 245/45-17, but fit the car well. This should get you to the points page (if I did it right) SCCA Sac results Rick
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/23/1505:19 AM
Originally Posted By norcal-fjo
Tom, I just finished running the nostalgia drags at Eagle Field, so my car still has the rallye wheels on it. I have the Dunlop star spec 2 on my autoX wheels, and they seem to work fine. I really don't have anything to compare them to, being my first set of "race" tires though. They are small at 245/45-17, but fit the car well. This should get you to the points page (if I did it right) SCCA Sac results Rick
Great to see you out there representing Rick, nice job!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/24/1502:02 PM
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
Actually the zerks survived lol!
since i don't participate in auto cross events, my thoughts wonder as to why these brackets are getting torn up ? surely there are no "duke boys" stunts involved ? is it going off track and the ensuing results of doing so that causes this ? please forgive my ignorance in asking this question, but i love learning about suspension issues.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/24/1502:05 PM
Bent because they aren't formed good. Flat metal doesn't like side load, and so bends. The straps need to be u-shaped, and a little thicker material. At the very lest about 1/2" thick if left flat. Those things look so weak it is totally pitiful.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/24/1503:08 PM
ok, i understand now. i was hoping there were no stunts involved. what would happen if one were to weld on reinforcement straps from where the mounting bolts are to the tops close to the zerks, forming a triangle ? possibly boxing the sides as well to really stiffen things up ? or would this just lend itself to sheared mounting bolts ?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 05/24/1504:33 PM
They hang low,life on the streets is tough lol. I did this leaving a gas station where they paved new asphalt, about 3" too high, along water runoff for the gutters. I even went super slow and tried to crab walk it at an angle. It stopped be dead, these brackets are NOT weak at all, and I don't think I could straighten it without making it worse.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/05/1505:21 PM
So I have the Wilwoods up front now on the 11.75 Córdoba rotors, but I really haven't spent time testing them prior to last Sunday's race. I also put the Hellwig helper springs on the rear leafs to see what they did. The springs actually did help I think, the Valiant felt like it rolled less, and just felt nicely balanced, even on the old Hankooks. Unfortunately I was way off my game today, never attacked the brakes or the course. My 7 straight SCCA Qualcom win streak ended, and my co-driver beat me in my own car....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/06/1502:55 PM
What I like is that this Valiant is consistent with more than one driver, which tells me the success isn't due to the driver alone. Nice job on the Plymouth and the driving.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1506:44 PM
Thanks guys. The Valiant is handling nicely, but I'm going to keep pushing to find ways to get it to he next level. Scored this set of Rotiform Forged 18x10.5 wheels off Craigslist for $400, because one had a small crack at the bead and one had a small dent. They weigh 20 lbs, which is 7 lbs less than my current front wheel, and 9 lbs less than each of my rears...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1507:03 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Thanks guys. The Valiant is handling nicely, but I'm going to keep pushing to find ways to get it to he next level. Scored this set of Rotiform Forged 18x10.5 wheels off Craigslist for $400, because one had a small crack at the bead and one had a small dent. They weigh 20 lbs, which is 7 lbs less than my current front wheel, and 9 lbs less than each of my rears...
And here are the wheels on the infamous purple Valiant! I already kind of liked it when Tom first pulled in, but the more and more I see it, the more and more I like it even though it doesn't have the "deep dish" look.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1509:10 PM
Thanks Samy, had the wheels refinished and repaired for $260, so for a grand total of $660, I'm going to try and figure out a way to mount 315/30/18 on all four corners...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1509:28 PM
Hotchkis posted results. Of course I did the worst for the compact car. They also didn't note all of my DNF's for spinning out on the course. I'm pretty sure I made it out of the lines at least 2 of the 3 times. Lol.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1509:42 PM
Can you post them here Samy.... Valiant had the new 315s on the rear, but ran the 275 RE71R Bridgestones up front cause I haven't figured out how I'm getting the 315s in there yet. Car felt great all day!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1509:45 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Thanks Samy, had the wheels refinished and repaired for $260, so for a grand total of $660, I'm going to try and figure out a way to mount 315/30/18 on all four corners...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1510:19 PM
Tom, those look good and I appreciate you doing the homework for us. Wade and I were talking about going to that exact same wheel/tire combo in the future. I need to know what the offset of those is and if you ditched the spacers or not. I was looking at wheels just like Samy's in that 18x10.5 size, but im too chicken and poor at the moment.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1511:43 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Can you post them here Samy.... Valiant had the new 315s on the rear, but ran the 275 RE71R Bridgestones up front cause I haven't figured out how I'm getting the 315s in there yet. Car felt great all day!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/07/1511:46 PM
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
Tom, those look good and I appreciate you doing the homework for us. Wade and I were talking about going to that exact same wheel/tire combo in the future. I need to know what the offset of those is and if you ditched the spacers or not. I was looking at wheels just like Samy's in that 18x10.5 size, but im too chicken and poor at the moment.
I kind of like the way that I figured it out by finding a test wheel and tire that barely rubs the leaf springs and start playing with the rimsntires calculator to find what new wheel to put on. Unfortunately for my car, some trimming, rolling, and folding will be required.
Tom was also dealing with spacers and tire rub. In some instances they were hitting the leaf springs, swap spacers around and they were hitting the inner fender. I think he got it just right at the end.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/08/1501:10 AM
I was bummed at Hotchkis because they were having a lot of timing issues. Twice I ran a great lap only to have the clock not stop. The run that shows 51 seconds was actually a 28.190, good enough for second, .1 out of first.
They do weld cracks if nec.
These 18x10.5 have a +42 offset. I run the 8.8 so I don't use much spacer on back, looks like a 7/16 will be good if I get the rear end perfectly centered and the leafs in 1/2 inch. The front will be tough, these Rival S 315 tires are wide. I'm hoping if I mill the Córdoba hub I can run no or little spacer, and get minimal rubbing inside....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/08/1505:17 AM
Nice Tom! Too bad they goofed up your time! Even with the times they showed, you were right on second with the .547 vs .534. Great job. Good luck fitting those wheels on front. Should be even faster! Mine is in the body shop. It was supposed to be done Friday. It wasn't. Now, we are shooting for Tuesday. Rick.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/08/1505:52 AM
Different wheel shops will have WAY different standards on this one, the shop I use is very conservative, if the bend or the crack is anywhere near the hub/lug area they won't touch it. The shop I use (Wheels America) has the best equipment, so they can true wheels via CNC to a very high standard.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/08/1506:07 AM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Different wheel shops will have WAY different standards on this one, the shop I use is very conservative, if the bend or the crack is anywhere near the hub/lug area they won't touch it. The shop I use (Wheels America) has the best equipment, so they can true wheels via CNC to a very high standard.
Rick what are you getting done?
So did they leave the crack and it was determined not significant? Nothing wrong with that.
Just would like to know what kind of minor cracks are fine. $620 total into a forged rims like that is awesome.
Did they just check it, polish out nicks, and repaint?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/08/1506:45 AM
No they repaired this one, I'm guessing they welded it since again it was about 3/4 of an inch into the lip. If it was possible to just CNC it out they would. They also CNC'd the face of these, to give a machined finish, painted the inserts hyper silver, and then cleared the whole thing... Here again are the before and after shots
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/09/1505:04 AM
I honestly think the Hellwig helper springs are giving the Hotchkis leafs the little bit more spring rate I wanted... The Valiant feels better balanced. I always felt the rear was dictating lean more than the front. Not conclusive, but before and after photos:
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/09/1503:31 PM
Looks awesome sir! Let me know what you figure out in the front.
Btw- I rub frame rail with 265/40/18 and +45mm in the front. still have 1+ turn each way (borgeson box, 3.0 lock to lock I think).
Also- I was trying to talk the BFG guys into a rival in 305/30/19. They said they'd look into it. Doubt it'll happen. I told then it's a factory size for a number of cars- anybody know what that is a factory size for?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/09/1505:02 PM
That looks really good Tom. With the amount of tire you have on the ground, it will exaggerate ANY weakness IMO. With that said, you may need to step up rates across the board. I can say that I didn't even notice a difference in ride going from 1.06 to 1.18's.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/09/1508:56 PM
Originally Posted By Uhcoog1
Looks awesome sir! Let me know what you figure out in the front.
Btw- I rub frame rail with 265/40/18 and +45mm in the front. still have 1+ turn each way (borgeson box, 3.0 lock to lock I think).
Also- I was trying to talk the BFG guys into a rival in 305/30/19. They said they'd look into it. Doubt it'll happen. I told then it's a factory size for a number of cars- anybody know what that is a factory size for?
Thanks Wade I'm sure the 315/30 will rub the frame in front, unless I do massive fender modification. I'm hoping either BFG or Bridgestone brings out one of their new 200TW tires in a 295/30/18, that would be perfect in front on these 10.5 wheels.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/09/1509:05 PM
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
That looks really good Tom. With the amount of tire you have on the ground, it will exaggerate ANY weakness IMO. With that said, you may need to step up rates across the board. I can say that I didn't even notice a difference in ride going from 1.06 to 1.18's.
Thanks Emil, I do want to step up the front bars, I think that and a rear Panhard are next.
Here are the two leaders of our Cam classes this year, the Valiant with a 108" wheelbase weighs 3250lb leads CAM-T. The Mustang II with a 96"? Wheelbase weighs 2900lb and leads CAM-S. The most interesting part I think is that these are arguably the two lowest buck cars in the classes, but they are the best balanced for Autocross. The Yellow Camaro is living proof that $100k dollars buys you massive HP, Hydroboost brakes, everything DSE makes for suspension, but the bottom half of our Autocross results...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 06/11/1503:23 AM
Tom, I think your car looks good with those wheels, and it does seem a bit more "planted" in the photos now. I did get my car back from the body shop. It came out pretty good. I had the C pillars fixed where the bondo cracked out (ex-vinyl top car), and he replaced the B pillar area,(drivers door striker area) that the P.O. had welded up poorly. I will just rattle can the paint back in, until next year when I put it back to the orig FE5 bright red. Not like me to do cosmetics to any of my cars, but there it is. Rick
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 07/10/1507:01 PM
Hey if any of you are pro-touring.com users I could use your vote, I only had one video on my computer so it's my Barracuda, and it's not very high tech. But, it's the only Mopar in the contest, and I could use the $500 towards the Valiant so if you can help, I'd appreciate it!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 07/13/1501:41 AM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Thanks guys. The Valiant is handling nicely, but I'm going to keep pushing to find ways to get it to he next level. Scored this set of Rotiform Forged 18x10.5 wheels off Craigslist for $400, because one had a small crack at the bead and one had a small dent. They weigh 20 lbs, which is 7 lbs less than my current front wheel, and 9 lbs less than each of my rears...
That is a nice amount of weight dropped and for the money spent averaging under $200 per corner, sell off the old wheels and I bet you are at even money.
Now since you dropped that kind of weight have you noticed better response from the car into and out of the turns? As well as the stopping distance can you go deeper into the corners now?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 07/16/1505:02 AM
Thanks so much for everyone's help! It looks like you have to spend the $$ with a pro-touring.com sponser so since BF Goodrich sponsored the contest, it looks like 2 tires! Mopar guys are the best!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 07/29/1511:56 PM
So why are you running the earlier sway bar?
I thought the later one was superior in that it was tucked up better being inside the k-frame, and the shorter arms made the bar effectively stiffer than the early bar. Read the whole thread but I don't remember reading anything about why to run that one.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 07/30/1501:27 AM
Actually I had forgot this had happened, I ordered the Hotchkis kit before I had a 73+ K member, so I ordered the older car kit. After the steering wouldn't clear the Dougs Headers using the old K and suspect slant six conversion motor mounts, I switched to a 73+ spool mount V-8 K. Dan made the older sway bar work on the new K. I have since heard that since it's bigger and mounts in a different location the 72 and earlier sway bar may actually be stiffer anyway.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 07/30/1505:19 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Actually I had forgot this had happened, I ordered the Hotchkis kit before I had a 73+ K member, so I ordered the older car kit. After the steering wouldn't clear the Dougs Headers using the old K and suspect slant six conversion motor mounts, I switched to a 73+ spool mount V-8 K. Dan made the older sway bar work on the new K. I have since heard that since it's bigger and mounts in a different location the 72 and earlier sway bar may actually be stiffer anyway.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 07/31/1510:44 PM
No I wish I could, I have a wedding I have to attend on Saturday. The Reno Autocross would have been a great way to try and qualify for the end of year Goodguys finals...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/01/1504:59 PM
Ok so after last times loss, my co-driver and I decided to make a serious attempt to finish this season 1-2. We lowered the Valiant one more inch in the rear and fabbed up a Panhard bar to attach the top of the bellhousing to the frame. It held for my co drivers four laps, and my first lap, then promptly ripped out of the frame on my second lap. Ill conceived and too short a bar, the forces generated were just too much. We were back on the old Hankooks, but I still ran 2 laps fast enough to win, except for one cone hit each time to keep me just behind the 550HP TCI Camaro.... Here is a rare shot of both cars at the same point in the same turn:
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/02/1512:37 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
The car felt really good with the rear lower, and I couldn't tell a lot of difference with / without the Panhard...
would the mount have held better if the tabs were attached to a plate about 4-6" in length contoured to the chassis wall section and rounded at both ends? it appears the rail is pretty thin in that section and the load needs spread over a greater area. just my opinion. i am no expert by any means. just offering an observation.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/02/1509:23 PM
You guys are exactly right, it definately needed a plate to reinforce it. I felt it go on my second lap, which was after my co-drivers four laps. It felt tight, but didn't feel "better" to either of us. The rear end moves side to side just enough to rub one side when I tried the 315/30/18 Rivals on the rear. It's a little crowded on that back axle with the shocks, leafs, helpers, rear sway bar and brake lines all fighting for space. I'm not sure it's worth it to re-engineer it particularly since I'm going back to the 275 Bridgestone on the rear anyway....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/02/1509:43 PM
The next race my co-driver ordered us up two new Bridgestone RE-71R so we went to the new lightweight forged 18x10.5 wheels and the 275 RE-71R on all 4 corners. The result was fairly remarkable. The car felt transformed and seemingly could do anything, turn in on a dime, and the tail never wagged. I honestly felt like I wasn't even at the limit of the tires ability, I couldn't wrap my head around the corner entry speeds that were now possible. Remember this is a torsion barred leaf springed Hotchkis TVS equipped 260 HP car with one usable Autocross gear (2nd), going up against a pretty well driven 550HP LS powered TCI/DSE suspension 6 speed Camaro on 315 Falkens. The Valiant won today in what could almost be considered a blowout, 1.3 seconds on a 47 second course...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/02/1509:55 PM
CONGRATS on the win!
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
The next race my co-driver ordered us up two new Bridgestone RE-71R so we went to the new lightweight forged 18x10.5 wheels and the 275 RE-71R on all 4 corners. The result was fairly remarkable.
Im a big fan of not overtiring! and I'm glad thats working well because thats my target size wheel and tires ;-) I presume you are spraying those stones a good amount between runs?
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/02/1510:18 PM
Thanks! It was about 80 degrees, and we had maybe 5 minutes between laps. The Falken guys (2nd and third) were spraying after every lap. We forgot to bring ours so didn't spray all day. I honestly don't know if these Bridgestones like it better cold or hot because they felt great every lap...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/02/1510:22 PM
you need a pyrometer. The word on the street is that the stones will last longer with a moderate heatcycle before abuse. And wont cycle out as fast if you keep it under 135F
Keep an eye on them and let us know how many runs etc.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/03/1511:38 PM
Thanks for the kind words, but I do think I could be better, and the car can go faster. I just signed up for the Optima Fontana event in October so that will certainly be the cars biggest test to date. I'm hoping to at least do well at the Autocross, and the speed stop should be ok, but the road course will be a big test with only 260HP!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/04/1501:49 AM
Would you get less tire rub if the spring bushings were replaced with delrin units? Maybe the rubber bushings are too soft and contributing. I know the springs themselves can twist some too but maybe its more of a bushing issue.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/05/1501:22 PM
Originally Posted By 72Swinger
I suggested rear sliders, then you have 0 bushings at the shackle end. Those are kind've a "no return to stock" experiment though.
I dont have pics, but i made up a bolt in box to mount my sliders, uses the spring hanger bolts and 2 more holes drilled through the chassis to mount to. Fully returnable to stock.......
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/06/1512:33 PM
Ill try and remember to get pics, its super simple, just a short box that bolts to the factory hanger bolt position upright, the sliders bolt on underneath, its pretty much centered under the strongest upright part that it bolts to.....
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/07/1504:25 PM
Tom -- you should eventually try to enter and compete in the SCCA Solo CAM nationals in Lincoln, NE. The class is only a "supplemental" additional class, but it will probably someday become a regular/standard class for the SCCA Solo Nats. You've established yourself as a top contender in your west-coast region... national competition typically brings the best of the best and results in a higher overall level of competition.
Getting the time off work, etc, is the issue for most people to attend such an event... many top drivers can't attend, but also, typically the best in the nation do attend in their quest to claim top honors. You deserve to attend... it'd be great to have you at the very top of the competition!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/07/1508:31 PM
Originally Posted By Mopar Mitch
Tom -- you should eventually try to enter and compete in the SCCA Solo CAM nationals in Lincoln, NE. The class is only a "supplemental" additional class, but it will probably someday become a regular/standard class for the SCCA Solo Nats. You've established yourself as a top contender in your west-coast region... national competition typically brings the best of the best and results in a higher overall level of competition.
Getting the time off work, etc, is the issue for most people to attend such an event... many top drivers can't attend, but also, typically the best in the nation do attend in their quest to claim top honors. You deserve to attend... it'd be great to have you at the very top of the competition!
Mitch I completely agree, right now Mary Pozzi, Robby Unser, and Al Unser JR are signed up. I'm trying everything I can to get off work, the OK from the wife to spend the $$, and the car out there. I may have a chance to co-drive a car, which cuts down on the expense substantially, but it's a Mustang, and I don't think I would enjoy it nearly as much...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/11/1506:18 AM
Tom. Great results! Keep it up. You make us proud! I have slipped to second in points (Sac Chapter) with four races remaining. I can only make it to three, so I hope I can regain the lead. Good luck at the Optima event. I spectated the Thunderhill event earlier this year, and want to give it a try next year.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/13/1505:53 AM
Tom, I have run five times on my Z-2's, and they show no noticeable wear yet. I have same size F&R, so I rotate each event. They seem to hold well, but I have nothing to compare to since this is my first set of "200"s. I have been having more trouble keeping fuel to my main jets while hard cornering. I finally swapped out my Thermo-quad for the AVS, and saw much improvement. Bowl shape on TQ not good for hard cornering. Are you running a Holley? I have a few, but never cared for them on the street cars. I have a 630 cfm AVS on it now, and I am prepping a 750 cfm for later. Take care, Rick
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/21/1503:56 PM
Great day Sunday at the Q in San Diego, it was hot for us, low 90s and humid, but the new Re-71Rs didn't seem to care. A rare "no changes" event for the Valiant, the only thing I did between last race and this one was was wash+gas. My co-driver is in a huge battle with the 1969 Mustang, Ians 1966 Mustang, and the 68 Camaro for 2nd place, so he needed to finish 1st or 2nd. The Bridgestones were beasts, as the Guys on Falkens battled tire overheating, the Valiant never faltered. For the fist time since he got new Dunlop Z2s, I beat the Mustang II in CAM-S as well... Even though I missed the 1-2 shift on my 3rd lap, it was good enough so I didn't take my last lap to save the tires for another day...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/21/1507:30 PM
For the AFB's, see if the off-road needle and seat units are still available. They have a little spring in them to help out when the float is bouncing around. Holley has the same type of unit for their carbs.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/21/1509:57 PM
Thanks Wade, car feels great, I have it signed up for a Hotchkis event in Sept and then the Optima Fontana event in October, so we will see how all the changes do up against the big boys...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 08/22/1506:22 PM
Thanks Emil, the Valiant really is proving now, with BOTH drivers, that a torsion bar leaf spring setup really can compete with the best the aftermarket has to offer. We finished 1-2 for the first time against a 550HP 427ci LS3 TCI suspension Camaro that finished 4th in its class at Optima Vegas this year. We also beat no less than three HOTCHKIS SPONSORED Autocross Mustangs. Two of the Mustangs are the actual Hotchkis test vehicles their suspension package were developed on. Now I just need somebody to help me secure a 450 HP small block!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/12/1504:39 PM
Originally Posted By 68rrunner
Maybe the Mustangs just need a driver swap mod?
Yeah being a good co-driver is a delicate balance, particularly if you are driving someone else's Mustang. I blew a guys motor once, and never felt worse. I try to always give my co-driver as many tips as possible, ideally he would finish a tenth behind me, not 5 seconds a lap. Obliterating someone in their own car has to get old after awhile. We all have egos, but to me racing at this level should never be so competitive that winning a three inch trophy means more than helping a buddy.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/12/1504:48 PM
Been lagging on my updates since my trip to the SCCA nationals. My buddy and I could only afford to borrow one trailer so we had to choose between my Valiant and his Mustang to take to Nebraska. He felt more comfortable in his Mustang and it has more HP so we took his Stang. He put brand new 275/35/18 Bridgestone RE71R all around on it, and off we went. At least we used my 6 cylinder base Ram as our tow vehicle. I had trouble getting time off work so we had to do 1000 miles towing the first day, 600 miles the next, only to arrive into driving rain for our only 4 practice laps. The first day of competition was cut short by a spindle breaking, luckily not too much other damage.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/12/1504:56 PM
The spindle breaking is what ultimately caused me to enjoy the Nationals so much. 1200 Racecars and campers all living on the same Tarmac for a week created a great environment. So many like minded gear heads rushing to help with tools and beer the instant we broke. A guy who runs Autokraft saw us, and started making calls, the disc spindle for that year Mustang is kind of rare, but after 3 hours of making calls he found us one 30 miles away. Hopped in the Ram, got it and got back at dusk and started wrenching. Again, so many people of all ages and car classes stopping by to help. We finished at 9 PM, dirty and hungry, but ready to race the next morning...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/12/1505:06 PM
The Nationals takes your best time from only three laps the first day on one course, and adds it to your best time the second day out of 3 laps again on a completely different course. CAM-T drivers registered were some pretty decent drivers. Al Unser Jr, Robbie Unser, Mary Pozzi, and 5 other guys showed up. We had spotted them 3 seconds or so after day ones eventful laps... Here is our 400 HP junkyard build sandwiched between two 580 HP super Camaros... Little Al on left, Mary on right.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/12/1505:56 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Originally Posted By 68rrunner
Maybe the Mustangs just need a driver swap mod?
Yeah being a good co-driver is a delicate balance, particularly if you are driving someone else's Mustang. I blew a guys motor once, and never felt worse. I try to always give my co-driver as many tips as possible, ideally he would finish a tenth behind me, not 5 seconds a lap. Obliterating someone in their own car has to get old after awhile. We all have egos, but to me racing at this level should never be so competitive that winning a three inch trophy means more than helping a buddy.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/12/1506:08 PM
Ended up 4th, behind the Unsers and Pozzi. I was happy with only having 8 laps total in this car ever. The second day I finished .7 behind Robbie Unser, I would have caught him on my last lap, but the faster line I chose had too many marbles, and the rear came loose just long enough to lose the time needed. Overall a blast though, I beat Al Unser JRs co-driver in the Speedway Camaro, and got to drive the two best Autocross courses I've ever seen. SCCA Nationals should be a bucket list item for every racer.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/13/1508:26 PM
"SCCA Nationals should be a bucket list item for every racer."
Tom -- make a habit and it'll become 2nd-nature. I suggest to all racers to try to attend the best competitive events possible, biggest course layouts similar to SCCA National finals... as well as the pavement. Learn to look ahead into the sea of pylons... again, make it a 2nd-nature to yourself. Memorizing the course is at least 50% of the contest for any major event. Sometimes long distance travel is required and becomes costly.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/15/1511:10 PM
Originally Posted By Tomswheels
Thanks for all the support! Enough of the Mustang stuff, next I took the Valiant to The Optima Ultimate Street Car Invitational....
You will have your hands full at that event, I have looked at a few of the cars that go to those events and they are crazy ... big power and lots of brakes. Good luck!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/15/1511:25 PM
Well you said it, the competition at this Optima Fontana was particularly tough because it is the event before the Final in Vegas, and it's a double points event. All the fast guys using this as a tune up for Vegas and/or battling to finish with enough points to get in. My car was, without question, by far the lowest HP car in the 32 car GTV class. The first event was speed stop, a drag race followed by a u-turn followed by a slalom then stopping in a cone box. Fun, and the Valiants brakes (Wilwood 4 piston on the old ARE adapters and stock 11.75 78 Monaco rotors) did pretty well. I was put so far behind on the drag race though I couldn't make up time and finished 28th...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/15/1511:30 PM
Next up was the good old fashioned Autocross, and the only change I had made were two new rear 275/35/18 Bridgestone RE71R to match the two used ones up front. It was extremely hot (105 degrees) and the car was pushing, which I hadn't felt before. I figured out after my last lap I should have switched the new tires to the front, which I did the next day for the big track and it felt much better. Opportunity to finish top 10 lost, I was 12th out of 32...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/15/1511:37 PM
I really think the Valiant had a top 10 Autocross finish in it, even against these beasts, I'd beaten Chad Rykers Camaro 3 times this year and he finished 10th. Here is pics of the competition, including the 48 hour Corvette built earlier this year (he finished 7th).
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/15/1511:43 PM
Last up was the Road Course, the 1.5 Mile infield track at the Autoclub Speedway. I was expecting it to be bad as there are two straights, one long enough for the fast guys to see 125+ MPH. The Valiant with its 4spd OD and 3:08 rear was at a huge disadvantage on each straight when I shifted into the 1:1 third gear. Top speed on the backstretch was probably 95 for me, and the Z06 I was chasing pulled me by 5 car lengths each straight.
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/15/1511:46 PM
I ended up finishing 18th,just ahead of Mary Pozzi and her 580HP Camaro, which I was really happy with. The car felt balanced and neutral, never heated up, never brake faded. I was running the black Z06 down so badly under braking and cornering that I was held up before the straights. What a blast though, no place to hide bad driving out there...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 10/16/1505:00 PM
Tom, what a great representative you are to the MOPAR community. You've taken the lowliest Valiant on stock pretty much 50 year old suspension system with low horsepower and have been competitive. I'm sure yo get looks and laughed at by some of your competitors making it all the sweater (Why I've always liked the underdog A-Bodys!). You and Wade have shown us what proper tuning to the original suspension design can do on the street, autocross, track and open road racing.
Mighty impressive for all of us in the building stage!
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 11/12/1506:25 AM
Great job Tom! And thanks for "taking us along". Great coverage. I ended up second in Sacramento for the season, so I have some plans for the Dart for next year. See if I can improve by one spot. I have no pictures of my car in action, so maybe I'll get on of those GoPro cameras for next year. At least I'll have some in car stuff to share. Again, great job! Rick
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 11/27/1505:51 PM
So I've lagged again on updates, two more Qualcom SCCA races since my last update, two more Valiant victorys on the Bridgestones. My main competition in the Mustang also bought a set of the RE-71R, so he doesn't have tires to blame now when the Valiant beats him. My Co-Driver is doing great, making a run at 2nd place, so that competition will go down to our very last race this year...
Re: 67 Valiant budget built to race 2015 - 11/27/1505:56 PM
The Valiant did lock up first place overall in CAM-T with that last win, despite the pic below that shows even the Bridgestone RE-71R and the Hotchkis TVS can exceed track limits.... Since I have the year end title won, I will let others whose Mustangs have broken this year drive it to get year-end points and maybe see and feel the Moparness!
He blew straight through the brake zone about 4 or 5 times. I think I ate more cones then him but I kept my car inside the course. 
One day at an autocross I 'blew the number off' the door of the SS/T, (my pickup). 
Any updates? Has this passed to someone else? Enquiring minds what to know. 
Keep us up to date. Thanks, Steve