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whats a better car to build for handling b or a body?

Posted By: bigblockbryan

whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 09:53 AM

i am curious about building my super bee clone for a little better handling then stock like as good as like a 80s-90s muscle car my car currently is shell its mini tubbed with frame connectors. Is there any thing i can do budget wise to improve its handling or would it be cheaper to get lets say 67-9 barracuda or a demon.I am just curious about this

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Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 10:37 AM

Oh goodness...that oughta open up a can of worms!

There's a slew of upper control arms to give you more caster/camber adjustments, sway bars, springs/4-links, aftermarket steering boxes/upgrades. It really comes down to what you want/have to spend.

As for the second half of that question- aside from saving some weight, you're going to be buying the same parts for an A-body that you would for the B-body. Looking at the thread on car weight bias, on average they all seem to be about 55/45 front to rear, so no real advantage there. Can you afford to build 2 cars? Might be worth doing an A-body for corner carving if you can. Money's tight? Take advantage of other's knowledge ahead of you. Pay particular attention to ones like AlexP's build in this section. Keep your eyes peeled for the deals and build away!
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 11:23 AM

Though I'D run a B-body, its hard not to say A-body. The answer is A-body. Though, tire size limitation is a factor. The B's... some ov them anyways can eat up a lot more tire than an A-body. Though... as i type that i think about 72Swinger's car... He's certainly got enough meat... so again, yeah, its hard not to say A-body.

Between the tire size thing, the appearance thing (71 Demons look good, but not 71RR/69RR/68-9 Charger good...), and the width (wider track)... i'll still take the B-body. I'm a weight-reduction master anyways.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 11:54 AM

Quote:

Though I'D run a B-body, its hard not to say A-body. The answer is A-body. Though, tire size limitation is a factor. The B's... some ov them anyways can eat up a lot more tire than an A-body. Though... as i type that i think about 72Swinger's car... He's certainly got enough meat... so again, yeah, its hard not to say A-body.

Between the tire size thing, the appearance thing (71 Demons look good, but not 71RR/69RR/68-9 Charger good...), and the width (wider track)... i'll still take the B-body. I'm a weight-reduction master anyways.


well thanks for the compliment Pale lol! They all can be made to handle exceptional really. It all comes down to grip and balance IMO. A BB B body will out handle a BB A body 9 out of 10 times, even in stock form. A B body with an aluminium SB and 315's at all 4 corners would be a serious handler, just wonder why nobody seems to try that big of tire.
Posted By: Consulier

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 03:41 PM

Quote:

A B body with an aluminium SB and 315's at all 4 corners would be a serious handler, just wonder why nobody seems to try that big of tire.




The rear would be easy, but the front would take some work.
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 04:20 PM

Late B's have inner fenders in the front that unbolt. now, while they're part of the frame, you could offset that with a roll cage-style front structure. man you could fit some tires then

I'd agree with B body, just because of track width alone. Forget the aluminum smallblock.

Here's two interesting possibilities. Indy now makes an aluminum B block (i.e. 383/400). Man I want one of those. Or an aluminum 225, set back as far as possible

ahh... if only I were rich

Check out this B body 4 door autox setup, with tire test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfVC2qOJ_lU
Posted By: Tomswheels

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 06:19 PM

I'd build whatever car you LIKE the best. Since you already have the B, I don't think buying an A would b really be cheaper. That being said, handling follows weight, and if you are going to be Autocrossing a tight course, an A has an advantage...

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Posted By: Mattax

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 07:26 PM

I agree. Autocross, A (or E); Rally, A;
B's extra wheel base and track width could be an advantage for on road course and circle track.
I think you'll find more B-bodies ran in the roundy-round circuits than A's.
Posted By: AlexP

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 07:55 PM

Tire size and engine bay size really limit the A-body.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 09:48 PM

Quote:

i am curious about building my super bee clone for a little better handling then stock like as good as like a 80s-90s muscle car my car currently is shell its mini tubbed with frame connectors. Is there any thing i can do budget wise to improve its handling or would it be cheaper to get lets say 67-9 barracuda or a demon.I am just curious about this




Based on the bolded sections above, no reason to search out an A body since you already have something to start with. A little bit better is not hard to do, and a little bit doesn't have to cost a lot. Since you already have sub frame connectors, next thing to do would be step up the spring rates and step up the shock rates. This will make things a little bit better for not a lot of dough. $300 for T-bars, $200 for leaf springs, $400 for shocks. That's the basic foundation you need. Combine it with a more modern, radial friendly alignment (ask for an '05 Mustang at the shop) and your '68 will now handle more like a '90 Mustang. There are a lot of others things you can spend money on after that to further refine its manners, but that is the most basic starting point.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/22/15 10:25 PM

Quote:

and your '68 will now handle more like a '90 Mustang.




I sure hope a 90 Stang handles a heck of a lot better than my 86 Stang did, which I doubt.

My 65 Cuda handled better stock. The stock 4 link rear in the stang is too loosey goosey for me.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 12:27 AM

Heh, Tony. You're right on both counts. My apologies for joining the sidetrack.

So I'll add this to your suggestions to the OP:
Within your parameters lose weight where and when you get the chance. This includes unsprung weight.

Keep the car at stock height or slightly lower, this includes the rear. Lowering done right reduces both center of gravity and the roll centers. This is all no or minimal additional costs to your rebuild or replacement or worn parts. (Exception to lower than stock would be if you drive on unpaved roads - then keep stock hieghts and use a tire appropriate for that.)

Front sway bar is a must. Your own taste in steering feel will dictate the box to use. Use a slightly more agressive alignment than stock that will match your taste for a more sporty feel. Also as indicated above most modern radial tires, especially sporty ones, prefer more negative camber than the factory spec'd. More caster than the factory spec'd will help offset the body roll and help high speed stability. However there is such thing as too much caster, and also it can cause the steering wheel to snap back to center if you let go.

For brakes, make sure you get the correct shoes for the hardware. Take you're time on getting them working right. Bleed 'em. When its time to replace pads or shoes, take whatever steps you can to get linings that work well in the temperature range you'll need. The FMSI edge codes are of some help. EE minimum for someone who cares. EF or FF is even better. Pricer alternative is a place like Rochester Brake and Clutch or Porterfield.
Posted By: jcc

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 12:37 AM

One thing I don't see mentioned yet, with an A body, you can be a lot more aggressive with the mods with little concern with reversibility, as the car is also likely a bit less desirable and/or collectible.
Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 01:09 AM

Quote:

One thing I don't see mentioned yet, with an A body, you can be a lot more aggressive with the mods with little concern with reversibility, as the car is also likely a bit less desirable and/or collectible.




On the flip side, he's already stated it's a "clone," so less of a concern regarding affecting the value.
Posted By: 70Cuda383

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 04:57 AM

I had 315s up front and 335 in the rear of my Dakota for awhile. Not advisable on the street. Tires wanted to find their own way down the road, crowns, ruts, etc made the truck wander, steering felt loose, broken, unpredictable, yet responsive at the same time. It was unnerving at times.

Might not be a problem in a flat parking lot auto cross or road course environment though
Posted By: Tomswheels

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 06:28 AM

It fits a small block, and I run 285 Fronts and 305 Rears, so it's not too bad....

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Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 08:24 AM

Quote:

It fits a small block, and I run 285 Fronts and 305 Rears, so it's not too bad....


thems pizza cutters lol....
Posted By: bigblockbryan

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 11:35 AM

the car mainly will be street driven not much for road racing in wisconsin i was toying with the idea of getting one of the Hotchkis suspension kits.Since the cars gonna complete front end rebuild kit torsion bars disc brake conversion and leaf springs i figure it out do every thing stock itd be close to 1500.So whats another 1500 you got a car that will handle better i'm starting to get intrested in building a 400 over a 440 or wont there be a big diffrence.With a b body i also want fast 2.0 fuel injection on it and a six speed manual this car wont be done for a about 3 years i just learned alot when i built my fury and i just wanna have one really kick ass super bee clone. mainly drive train it might not have carpet or a back seat and im also planning on adding a 68-70 gas filler to it also
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 12:00 PM

Quote:

the car mainly will be street driven not much for road racing in wisconsin i was toying with the idea of getting one of the Hotchkis suspension kits.Since the cars gonna complete front end rebuild kit torsion bars disc brake conversion and leaf springs i figure it out do every thing stock itd be close to 1500.So whats another 1500 you got a car that will handle better i'm starting to get intrested in building a 400 over a 440 or wont there be a big diffrence.With a b body i also want fast 2.0 fuel injection on it and a six speed manual this car wont be done for a about 3 years i just learned alot when i built my fury and i just wanna have one really kick ass super bee clone. mainly drive train it might not have carpet or a back seat and im also planning on adding a 68-70 gas filler to it also


Not much for Road Racing in WI? I thought Elkhart Lake was in WISCONCIN? I think there is a pretty sweet track around there abouts....
Posted By: Consulier

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 04:06 PM

Quote:

It fits a small block, and I run 285 Fronts and 305 Rears, so it's not too bad....



What did you have to do to get the 285 to fit? If you have a thread with the details, please point the way.
Posted By: Tomswheels

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 05:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It fits a small block, and I run 285 Fronts and 305 Rears, so it's not too bad....



What did you have to do to get the 285 to fit? If you have a thread with the details, please point the way.




Kevin, Dan installed the Hotchkis kit in Yuma, 18x10 +42 offset wheels, really just some minor fender work in the front, rolled the lips, cut an inch out of the rear of the front wheel opening behind the lip and re-welded it, and took a pneumatic jack and pushed the top of the lip out about 3/4 of an inch. I'm trying to get a quick build thread put together next week. It's unfortunately on the other end of the build spectrum from your awesome Duster, but trying to race it as much as possible this year!

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Posted By: Consulier

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/23/15 07:32 PM

Quote:

Kevin, Dan installed the Hotchkis kit in Yuma, 18x10 +42 offset wheels, really just some minor fender work in the front, rolled the lips, cut an inch out of the rear of the front wheel opening behind the lip and re-welded it, and took a pneumatic jack and pushed the top of the lip out about 3/4 of an inch. I'm trying to get a quick build thread put together next week. It's unfortunately on the other end of the build spectrum from your awesome Duster, but trying to race it as much as possible this year!




That seems way too easy... Might be on the opposite side of the spectrum, but yours is running.
Posted By: Tomswheels

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/24/15 12:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Kevin, Dan installed the Hotchkis kit in Yuma, 18x10 +42 offset wheels, really just some minor fender work in the front, rolled the lips, cut an inch out of the rear of the front wheel opening behind the lip and re-welded it, and took a pneumatic jack and pushed the top of the lip out about 3/4 of an inch. I'm trying to get a quick build thread put together next week. It's unfortunately on the other end of the build spectrum from your awesome Duster, but trying to race it as much as possible this year!




That seems way too easy... Might be on the opposite side of the spectrum, but yours is running.




I hear ya, the 69 Convertible was really starting to show its age/flexibility, so I had to get something up and working quick. The Valiant is actually surpassing my expectations at Autocross, but down on power/gearing/braking for anything longer right now...

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Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/24/15 03:10 AM

Tom I see you are saying the wheels are +42 now instead of +22, NOW I don't feel like im losing my mind. I've been looking at 18x9.5's in the 40-45mm range and I think I could squeeze them on without any effort. I would do 18x10's if I could find some I liked but I think a 285 would still work well on a 9.5.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/24/15 06:15 AM

I've owned and drag race a lot of different Mopar body styles and year cars over the years, no doubt in my mind on which is better for your deal. The Demon would be my choice to start with Remember the laws of physics when it comes to going fast, light is right, cars, tires, wheels, pistons, crankshafts rods, brakes and so on. The other half of that law is big is best, motors, carbs, tires and so on Back in the mid 1970s I sold a 1970 Hemi Cuda clone car to a young kid in Santa Monica, CA, he said he was going to street race it in and around Hollywood and San Fernado Valley CA. I ASSUMED street drag racing it stoplight to stop light, he wasn't He wanted to race it up n the hills between Hollyweird and San Fernado valley on the other side of the Hollywood hills Bottom line is he called me on how to make that car go around corners better, that was not doable back then, I told him to sell that car and buy a 340 or 360 powered Duster and never look back. He insisted that he loved the E bodys so I suggested he find a AAR Cuda or a T/A Challenger, which he did He bought a 1970 T/A Challenger and raced it up on the hill, the first week he raced it he called me and thank me profusely, he siad that the Challenger was way faster through the curves than the Hemi Cuda was and almost as fast as it was on the straights :shruggy :Bottom line was he was beating up every car that came up there to play, including the turbo charged Porches of that day IHTHs I love BB powered Mopar drag cars, but the results of his endeavors speak volumes on where to start with a handling car My last BB powered Duster with the 400 stroker motor moved back one inch and the rear end moved forward one inch had 50.2 % weight on the front tires and 49.8 % on the rears with me(260 lbs) in the drivers seat My original steel front end 415 HP M.W. 1963 Plymouth Belevedere sedan had similar weight disribution with me in it also Bottom line is to pick the best choice out there to start any new race car project, if you want to win and have fun doing that
Posted By: dangina

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/25/15 02:21 AM

oh man I'd love to see a superbee ripping up the track!!!!! we need more bbodies on the road, you can probably easily fit 10" tires in those wheel wells so no problems there, I hope you go for it!!!!!
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/25/15 04:23 PM

Quote:

I've owned and drag race a lot of different Mopar body styles and year cars over the years, no doubt in my mind on which is better for your deal.




I think you forget what section you are are posting in.

This is the handling forum, not the 13 year old gurl who emotes too much forum. WTF does drag racing have to do with handling?
Posted By: RylisPro

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/25/15 06:52 PM

Quote:

WTF does drag racing have to do with handling?



Power to weight ratio.
It goes hand in hand with both drag racing and road racing/auto-x.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/25/15 09:00 PM

That is only part of it. Another huge consideration is weight shift/transfer and balance in transitions.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/26/15 02:27 AM

Quote:

That is only part of it. Another huge consideration is weight shift/transfer and balance in transitions.




them 4" skinnies up front'll help. The only weight shift a drag car worries about if front to rear.

Didn't we just discuss having too much power in the corners?

I guess I build them backwards as I usually build the suspension, brakes and trans/driveshaft/axles first, then add HP. Seen too many builds with more HP than the brakes, suspension, trans, driveshaft and/or axle could handle.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/26/15 09:45 AM

Quote:


I guess I build them backwards as I usually build the suspension, brakes and trans/driveshaft/axles first, then add HP. Seen too many builds with more HP than the brakes, suspension, trans, driveshaft and/or axle could handle.




CoughHellcat!cough...
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: whats a better car to build for handling b or a body? - 01/31/15 09:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I've owned and drag race a lot of different Mopar body styles and year cars over the years, no doubt in my mind on which is better for your deal.




I think you forget what section you are are posting in.

This is the handling forum, not the 13 year old gurl who emotes too much forum. WTF does drag racing have to do with handling?


Physcic is physcic son Open your mind and start thinking BTW, I have help some roundy round racer when a few track championships, none of this race car stuff, regardless of which way you race, is hard to get a handle on
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