Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi?

Posted By: 72440CUDA

Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 07:17 AM

For a decent corner carving, auto-crossing, fair weather driver? Suspension will be Hotchkis TVS and some sort of steering box upgrade. I know having a big block isn't "ideal", but there are plenty of members here that run them and their cars handle.

I'm getting ready to hang up the hobby/project for 4 years while I'm in England. So I'll have plenty of time to brain storm and save up money (hopefully).

Since I know the history of my current combo (I pulled the motor from a running 69 New Yorker with 60,000 miles), I was almost dead set to go with 440source heads (my stock heads are still from the leaded fuel era), maybe a 512 stroker kit (since my 45 year old motor has never been rebuilt and is ready for a refresh), Milodon road race pan, and FAST Easy EFI to replace the Eddy 750. I'm estimating this snowball would probably cost around +$7K.

Main reason, I would like to go EFI. I tried auto crossing with the carb and it would stall out sometimes, even with a baffled fuel tank, electric pump, -8 fuel lines, and return style regulator. These Easy EFI's look nice but are SPENDY!

With all of these Gen III Hemi builds going on, it has got me thinking it might be a better way to go for drive-ability and maybe(?) even cost less. But then I'll have to worry about headers, mounts, and everything else associated with it. And I just don't want any more car parts laying around afterward... as I tend to hoard everything, and this has put me over my weight allowances for moving and storage... which isn't good when you are in the military.

I plan on doing a 5-speed or T-56 conversion some day too, even though there is nothing wrong with my TCI 727 manual valve body trans with GV overdrive. I'm still pulling around 3000 RPM to keep up on the freeway (w/ 3.55 gears) getting 10 mpg and having to fill up every 125 miles or so

. I really like the T-56 in my WS6, cruising 65-75mph at 1500-1800 rpm even with 3.73 gears, averaging 20 mpg.

So, what do you think? Ditch the whole 440/727 GV combo in favor for 6.1(?) and mega squirt? Or, build up what I already have? I'm pretty handy and willing to do the work myself, short of the machining.

Sorry if this has already been debated to death, I didn't want to hijack anybody's thread.

Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 08:11 AM

We are in the wrong hobby to save money lets get that fact straight haha!

If the 440 is already there then just run it and get as much seat time as possible. Engine swaps are cool and all but the fact is that if you are swapping, you are not driving.

I'm changing to a Gen 3 because I have wanted to swap out my 340 for years. I feel that Gen 3 is the best way to raise the power to weight ratio. Not the most cost effective method though...

Unless you absolutely hate the automatic, then just run it. If you have to have a manual you will love the 6 speed

Posted By: Viol8r

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 06:50 PM

I basically run the 440 set up you are laying out except no stroker. I run CNC ported Stealths, EZ-EFI w/ mulitport, 11:1 comp, making over 575hp. Also run GV's for some added gear selection. We autocross, road course, etc, no problem.

Here is what most don't realize when you strictly looking engine upgrades. Now you have to stop, this leads to big brake costs. Now things get hot, this leads to coolers all over the place. Then there is safety, this leads to seats, harness bars/ or cages.

That's really the reason we stuck with the 440 and the not the real cost of about $15k to go to a GENIII.

Posted By: RylisPro

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 06:56 PM

That's a great point!
Exactly what I did with my car as well. Modified and upgraded suspension, brakes, fuel and safety systems
before even touching the engine

Posted By: Consulier

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 08:00 PM

Before you do anything, just change the carb.

The Taxi runs a QuickFuel 750 Vac Secondary with their off road floats and jet extensions. Mechanical pump, no return line, 1/2" line from the stock tank with a 1/2" pickup.

I've never had an issue at an Autocross, or a Road Course, with fuel supply, starvation, boiling, etc... The only time it will boil the carb is when it sets after a hot lap session and it doesn't get a chance to completely cool down. That's a 30 second inconvenience I can live with instead of investing in EFI.

Don't get me wrong, I love EFI, but don't throw out everything just because you need to spend a couple hundred bucks on a decent carb.

Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 09:15 PM

Since you are going to think on this a while, I'll offer another path.
Think of a separate car.
Yours is running and driving, I take it.
For the price of modifying this one, you can often buy a complete, sorted car.
Think Neon, Caterham, Elise, or whatever turns up when you have the cash saved and ready.
It can be road legal (easier), or a track only car, which requires a trailer and tow vehicle.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 09:35 PM

The Hemi swap isn't $15k.

I know this.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/11/14 11:37 PM

I wont comment on the way you should go. But in a few months I should be able to give an honest comparison between a stout BB and a stout GenIII in the same car with the same drivetrain.

Posted By: AlexP

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/12/14 12:04 AM

I fully expect my head and cam 6.1 to run better than a 440 of similar compression, with a bigger cam and aluminum heads to be fair.

I went with the new Hemi for three reasons:

1. Reliability (roller cam, efi modern accessories and o rings everywhere)
2. Parts availability (no need for many aftermarket items when I can get dealer parts that are far better.)
3. Power (without saying..these heads made it worth it. )

Posted By: ahy

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/12/14 03:59 AM

Just a couple of comments. They are both great. My Challenger has an EFI 496 B engine and I'm on my 3'rd DD hemi. I see what the "built" gen III hemi's can do and its impressive.

They are quite different though. A big wedge has "effortless" mid range torque and the Hemi likes to spin. Different experience. The Hemi needs more gears than the wedge. A 727 is OK behind a wedge but would not work well behind a Hemi.

Also the fuel system with EFI needs attention and improvement. With no carb bowl to cover momentary gaps in fuel delivery the system needs to be bulletproof. A sump or baffled tank with pump in tank is needed.

Whichever you pick, have fun!

Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/12/14 04:10 AM

Quote:

I feel that Gen 3 is the best way to raise the power to weight ratio. Not the most cost effective method though...

I still debate if I want to throw an SRT4 in the Dart for a better power to weight ratio.

Quote:

That's a great point!
Exactly what I did with my car as well. Modified and upgraded suspension, brakes, fuel and safety systems
before even touching the engine

Exactly what I've been doing.

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/12/14 02:08 PM

Quote:

I still debate if I want to throw an SRT4 in the Dart for a better power to weight ratio.

As long wave around the 3Gen Hemi swap guys on the track, go for it.

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/14/14 07:06 PM

Quote:

I fully expect my head and cam 6.1 to run better than a 440 of similar compression, with a bigger cam and aluminum heads to be fair.

I went with the new Hemi for three reasons:

1. Reliability (roller cam, efi modern accessories and o rings everywhere)
2. Parts availability (no need for many aftermarket items when I can get dealer parts that are far better.)
3. Power (without saying..these heads made it worth it. )

I'll second this and also mention the weight reduction benefit that others have said as well. Sit down and spend some time listing out your costs in a spreadsheet and I think you will find that you can get a good return on your 440/727 drivetrain and spare parts. The Gen-III stuff can be had for decent prices if you are patient. Join LX forums, those guys are changing parts like underwear all the time and there are plenty of deals if you dig around. Since the hemi uses the same bellhousing bolt pattern as the small block, there are more choices when it comes to transmissions as well. You can find lots of complete 5.7L drivetrains on E-bay for around 5k or less. Or just the engine with a harness for as low as 2k. I also suggest going with the in-tank fuel pump setup.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/14/14 08:42 PM

The reason I swapped:
1. 0 maintanence
2. Lighter than my iron head BB
3. Would need $3K in heads to equal what a ported 6.1 head is capable of, this $ covers my short block build by itself.
4. Shock and awe lol
5. Efficiency of the Gen III is unparalleled even by a SB
6. Its time to embrace the new stuff
7. To reliably equal the power my Gen III will make with a SB or BB I would need a solid roller valvetrain with lifters in the $800+ arena as well as rockers in the $700+ range. My 6.1 is going to use STOCK rockers AND lifters.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/17/14 06:56 AM

450-500HP with 20+ MPG out of multiple GenIII Hemi builds.

450-500HP with 10+ MPG out of multiple SB/B/RB engine builds.

You do the math...

This was the determining factor for me. The GenIII Hemi is lighter, and gives a daily driver option not so easily achieved/afforded in a conventional SB/BB build.

And $15K for a GenIII Hemi swap? Buying a whole car and not selling off the extra parts? I'll be hard pressed to spend $5K CDN on my setup...

Posted By: Bzzzz

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/18/14 07:23 PM

Quote:

Before you do anything, just change the carb.

The Taxi runs a QuickFuel 750 Vac Secondary with their off road floats and jet extensions. Mechanical pump, no return line, 1/2" line from the stock tank with a 1/2" pickup.

I've never had an issue at an Autocross, or a Road Course, with fuel supply, starvation, boiling, etc... The only time it will boil the carb is when it sets after a hot lap session and it doesn't get a chance to completely cool down. That's a 30 second inconvenience I can live with instead of investing in EFI.

Don't get me wrong, I love EFI, but don't throw out everything just because you need to spend a couple hundred bucks on a decent carb.

another Valid point

Posted By: brads70

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/18/14 08:25 PM

I agree with Kevin ..... I too run a quickfuel carb and love it!
I built a healthy 451" that loves to rev, with all the aluminum bolt ons . What does a 6.1 new Gen Hemi weight? I don't think they are a lightweight? I have a OD transmission and get 17 MPG on the hwy cruising. I kind of like the " K.I.S.S. method? the new stuff is great but relies too much on electronics IMO . I'm no electronics engineer so that turns me off somewhat. I like simple and being able to fix most things easily . Another negative for me is around here emissions " police" require all the smog parts and to meet the standards emission wise of the new stuff. Not so with the old. I don't make the rules.... just have to live by them....

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/18/14 09:47 PM

A BB is hard to beat for power and reliability at a reasonable RPM. The Gen III seems to be a little more of an endurance race engine in its design IMO. My BB got about 13MPG with a FAST EZ Efi TB setup. And that I was not happy with. If a guy is starting from scratch and wants a 600hp+ pump gas engine, I would still go Gen III.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/19/14 03:02 AM

Quote:

What does a 6.1 new Gen Hemi weight? I don't think they are a lightweight?

GenIII Hemi is about 500#...slightly lighter than a small block, if memory serves.

Posted By: JAMESDART

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/20/14 02:38 PM

either one will be fun. same as the sb vs bb, either one can provide the results. I wanted to do a 5.7 hemi in my duster twice now. and I just cant go through with it. the first time I decided against it because I was able to set it up with a bb for pennies on the dollar compared to a hemi swap. 6.1 wasn't an option at that time. I looked at it like this, a stock hp383 was rated close enough to a stock 5.7, the only gain to me was efi. which could be big, but im not afraid of a carb. dollar for dollar the value of it just wasnt there.
my car was setup like a pro-touring kind of build, I would not consider manual steering with 245s on the front. there was no borgeson box at that time. I don't want an aftermarket k frame.
the other problem at that time was the efi. looking at other guys swaps that were up and running, they had more into getting the thing to just run, than I had in my whole drivetrain.
the car has been set up for a few years now and I wanted to change things up a little. either build a fresh bb or hemi swap. I picked up a new truck hemi from a friend, and started looking at hemi builds again. looked at my car some more, and once again decided its just not worth it. id need a new quick time bell, new flywheel, new headers, new steering box, new radiator, do something with my k frame since no swap mounts will work on it, new fuel system, im just going to build a fresh bb. maybe one day ill find another car and start fresh with that hemi.
im running a mild 400, t56, and ford 8.8, I have taken it on some road trips and got 19-20 mpg with a holley 750.

Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Build 440 or swap to Gen III Hemi? - 12/23/14 12:33 PM

Quote:

I agree with Kevin ..... I too run a quickfuel carb and love it!
I built a healthy 451" that loves to rev, with all the aluminum bolt ons . What does a 6.1 new Gen Hemi weight? I don't think they are a lightweight? I have a OD transmission and get 17 MPG on the hwy cruising. I kind of like the " K.I.S.S. method? the new stuff is great but relies too much on electronics IMO . I'm no electronics engineer so that turns me off somewhat. I like simple and being able to fix most things easily . Another negative for me is around here emissions " police" require all the smog parts and to meet the standards emission wise of the new stuff. Not so with the old. I don't make the rules.... just have to live by them....

I have completely totally, utterly embraced efficiency. I was a big block fanatic. EVERYTHING i have from cars to parts in the shed is big block Mopar. But no matter how i attack it, no matter how i approach it or how much thought goes into it... i'm always going to be trying to build a Coyote out ov an engine designed in 1959... Even much (most?) ov the aftermarket... is based on 55 year old engineering. Edelbrock themselves said they based their VERY popular big block head off the 'famous' 906 head. Same head that was sold in '59... just bigger holes.

Problem is... to embrace the new, you have to surrender to the new. New cars are GREAT... when they work. When they stop working... life sucks. When my 72 Charger (with its 7 moving parts) stopped working, i diagnosed and fixed it readily. When my 96 GT stops working... the blasphemies start flying and i become a vicious nihilistic [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean ARE YOU SERIOUS??? I typed the word ba$tard...]. Granted... get a good new plant and it will likely never let you down, but still. Hell... just modifying a new engine is a chore. I can swap an intake on my 440 in the same time it took to do the plugs on my Mustang.

The final question you have to ask though, is, do i want to drive my car? Or just talk about it? Sure, there are the rare few here on Moparts (a VERY well-heeled site) that actually have an old school powertrain and actually log serious miles on the car, but pretty much EVERY big block car i know ov now sits... 350 days a year. Even the race cars dont get raced any more because people have become so spoiled with the new stuff... soooo much easier to just jump in the Dakota or wife's Mustang and wheel down to the Friday night drags for some $25 fun than permitting, firing up, tuning, gassing up and then driving the big block down to the track for some $25 fun. All you see down there these days are imports and sponsored race cars. The big blocks dont leave the shops anymore.

I HATE that its come to this... (i also hate that i have been forced to become obsessed with efficiency) and no ranting ov mine will change it back, but if you want to DRIVE that car... especially on a road track... go new.