Moparts
66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts
Posted By: Streetwize
66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/30/14 10:26 PM
I basically want a sub 3000 pound 66 wagon with the best overall handling and braking using (primarily )OEM-sourced parts and assuming 15" Max wheels (15 x 8 cop wheels most likely). Only exception may be the rear brake discs which I'll probably do a Dr diff kit.
Probably 11.75" Cordoba rotors, 340 A body .870 torsion bars (or slightly larger since I've got some fatter tires), XHD (340) springs in back with bolt on swaybars.
This is not gonna be a drag car, I want this one to drive and drive often. 5500 max RPM, 10:1 and "only" about 525 hp with crushing torque curve all through the powerband. 3.23 or 3.55 gears, shift kit. Motor is already sorted and ready to go.
So basically I want a slightly improved police type ride in a ~1000 pound lighter and better weight distributed package.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/30/14 10:55 PM
They made W2 heads for a 440 big block? Never heard of that.
Or would that be some sort of model number for the station wagon?
ONLY an .87 t-bar???? I'd go with a 1" at least and probably a 1 1/4 with a 440 big block, depending if that is really the engine size. Or a 1" min. with a 340ish small block.
If you REALLY want an .870 t-bar, then get a much heavier anti-sway bar, that way the .870 t-bar will allow for a softer/better/smoother ride, and the heavier front anti-sway bar and matched rear bar will allow for more spirited driving of the curvies, been there, done it that way.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/30/14 10:58 PM
440 stroker smallblock W2
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/30/14 11:17 PM
I can advise also to use 1" bars.
I went from the stock 0.87" bars to 1" JustSuspension bars in my daily '73 Dart which weighs about 3175 lbs and I'm sure I wouldn't be scared of installing 1.06" or 1.10" bars in it.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/30/14 11:32 PM
Quote:
440 stroker smallblock W2
Kool. 
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/30/14 11:58 PM
If you are going to have a thousand pound lighter (than what?) package you need to remember one thing. Spring rates need to match corner weights.
Just because someone ran a 1" bar in a stockish weighing A body does not mean it's a good choice for one that weighs a thousand pounds less.
Not to mention that wagons have a different, usually better, weight distribution than non-wagons, that will also affect spring rates. Get everything but the suspension sorted out, then get corner weights for us so we can sort out options based on good data, not monkey see, monkey do, suggestions.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/31/14 12:39 AM
Thanks,
Yeah the wagon will be a bit lighter and bit better balanced front to rear than a 340 Duster, balance is the key, i dont really want the ride to be super stiff like my old 94 Firehawk. I now have a 99 V6!Camaro (that my Dad left me) and to be honest it's better balanced and more fun to corner and live with every day than the hawk was.
The car is over at Stephen Daurity's shop and we're just now going over everything.
Thanks!
Posted By: ahy
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/31/14 03:29 AM
Tight and fun... as a first step, suggest you beef up/tighten up the unibody. Frame connectors, 2"x 2" box section or more, and full welded/gusseted K frame as a start. Torque boxes and boxed LCA's would help also. The car will feel tighter and be able to handle stiffer springs/shocks better... not much point in stiffer springs if the unibody flexes instead. My original 318/auto Challenger drove better with these changes alone. With a BB and 5 speed + stiffer springs/shocks it really drove better.
Big front sway bar definitely. Rear, maybe. Suggest you drive it first and decide on the rear bar.
As far as spring rates, agree knowing the weight would really help. XHD springs sound about right... though I don't know what's out there in A body length springs. As far as T bars... the trend is to go with really big bars. With your goals I'm not sure "really big" is needed though. Significantly more than stock, no doubt. 1" may be more than you need/want with a lighter package and your goals. Maybe 1 step down would be better. Its also a matter of budget... 1" in an A body length really needs high end shocks. .94" HD/Police bars not so much.
Good luck!
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/31/14 07:41 PM
Frame connectors are the first order of business, Got the car over at Daurity's and it don't get no better than that for fab work
Reconsidering maybe a .94-1.0 bar due to the fact I will have a bigger footprint than a 340 duster's little E70-14's. XHD's in the back with some bolt on swaybars should firm it up.
Can somebody give me a bit more insight into the boxed lower control arms? Seems like it would be easy to bridge the LCA channels and stiffen them up a bunch without adding much extra weight.
The car is going to be a really cool driver with lots of party room in the back
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/31/14 07:44 PM
W2 heads, mild 251/259 @ .050 roller, peak torque will be around 4000 probably shift it at 5400. Just want a big block mid range, should have that in spades.
Posted By: dart4forte
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 10/31/14 08:10 PM
Give Dick at Firm Feel a call. he has some experience with the handling characteristics of early A bodies.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 12:14 AM
Tire kicker
Posted By: dart4forte
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 01:14 AM
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 02:48 AM
Depending on your budget, IMO shocks are a great investment. I have the Hotchkis 1.5's on my Dart and they are a super shock. Your wagon may benefit from a B-body part # in the rear maybe? Even if you go conservative on spring rate, a shock valved with some balls will give the car a sporty,controlled and "in command" feel.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 02:55 AM
Quote:
Tire kicker
Posted By: AndyF
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 03:24 AM
Firm Feel and DoctorDiff have everything that you need.
Posted By: ahy
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 03:42 AM
Reinforced LCA's. A simple plate welded to the bottom of the LCA. Helps handle sway bar loads. FF and (from memory) Mancini handles the plates. FF can do the welding also if desired.
http://www.firmfeel.com/a_body_mopar_lower_control_arm_reinforcement.html
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 03:46 AM
Early A's seem to have a few challenges compared to the 67 laters, I never had one before but i like the light feel of it, even with the six it felt noticably lighter on its feet than the typical mopar.
I know Bob Tulius and others had some success in SCCA racing in the mid 60's with early A bodys, it should be fun for sure.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 04:27 AM
I would put 15x7 rallyes on it, would be a appropriate update.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 04:34 AM
Planning on body color cop wheels with dog dishes
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 11:11 PM
Regarding the LCA's,
Has anyone but me ever just drilled a couple holes and then bridge the LCA's perpendicularly with cross bolted steel sleeves? Its real easy and adds nearly (though not quite as much) as much strength as welding them with plates. Not everybody had access to a machine shop to fab the plates.... or a welder, not 20 yrs ago, and not in my garage anyway.
Its also a fairly common 'backyard' hop up on gm and ford cars with stamped U type lower trailing arms to add torsional rigidity, dead simple fix with a drill and about $5 worth of materials
Posted By: RichV
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 11:13 PM
Quote:
I basically want a sub 3000 pound 66 wagon with the best overall handling and braking using (primarily )OEM-sourced parts and assuming 15" Max wheels (15 x 8 cop wheels most likely). Only exception may be the rear brake discs which I'll probably do a Dr diff kit.
Probably 11.75" Cordoba rotors, 340 A body .870 torsion bars (or slightly larger since I've got some fatter tires), XHD (340) springs in back with bolt on swaybars.
This is not gonna be a drag car, I want this one to drive and drive often. 5500 max RPM, 10:1 and "only" about 525 hp with crushing torque curve all through the powerband. 3.23 or 3.55 gears, shift kit. Motor is already sorted and ready to go.
So basically I want a slightly improved police type ride in a ~1000 pound lighter and better weight distributed package.
The cop car wheels are really heavy, probably not the best choice for handling. They are probably a good choice if you are going to hop curbs or drive through potholes.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 11:20 PM
LOTS of potholes in Seattle.
Posted By: dart4forte
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 11:32 PM
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 11:36 PM
Quote:
Regarding the LCA's,
Has anyone but me ever just drilled a couple holes and then bridge the LCA's perpendicularly with cross bolted steel sleeves? Its real easy and adds nearly (though not quite as much) as much strength as welding them with plates. Not everybody had access to a machine shop to fab the plates.... or a welder, not 20 yrs ago, and not in my garage anyway.
Its also a fairly common 'backyard' hop up on gm and ford cars with stamped U type lower trailing arms to add torsional rigidity, dead simple fix with a drill and about $5 worth of materials
Seems like a good idea for the guy without access to a welder or knows someone with a welder.
I don't weld. But I just got these 1" wide steel strap and braced mine. No added weight for overlapping metal and I didn't want them too obvious. Thought about sinking the ones on the bottom 1/2" or so you couldn't see them well.
Posted By: dart4forte
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 11:42 PM
This is something I've never thought of. I saw Jim Lusk's YouTube video of the DIY lower control arm mod.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwes-SP8u4w
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/01/14 11:48 PM
@ dart4forte,
Thanks for that link! Very cool car, I forwarded the link to Stephen to check out.
Posted By: dart4forte
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/02/14 12:34 AM
Quote:
@ dart4forte,
Thanks for that link! Very cool car, I forwarded the link to Stephen to check out.
Jim is actually are pretty talented guy with lots of A body experience. Drop him a line and pick his brain.
Posted By: cudadoug
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/02/14 08:00 AM
Quote:
Planning on body color cop wheels with dog dishes
Wize, this wagon is going to be sooooo cool!
Posted By: jcc
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/02/14 05:27 PM
Quote:
Regarding the LCA's,
Has anyone but me ever just drilled a couple holes and then bridge the LCA's perpendicularly with cross bolted steel sleeves? Its real easy and adds nearly (though not quite as much) as much strength as welding them with plates. Not everybody had access to a machine shop to fab the plates.... or a welder, not 20 yrs ago, and not in my garage anyway.
Its also a fairly common 'backyard' hop up on gm and ford cars with stamped U type lower trailing arms to add torsional rigidity, dead simple fix with a drill and about $5 worth of materials
And I quote "Monkey see, monkey do"
Its not a problem that needs to be solved, and no one on this site on their best day could notice an improvement by this mod, or substantiate a failure w/O it.
Want a banana? 
I am also leery of usefulness of "bone crushing" torque in a relative light stock suspension 15"x8 tired car on the street. HP yes.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/02/14 05:55 PM
JCC,
I'm looking for a specific power/torque curve for the combo, I've had big block powered A body cars that were a blast to drive straight but were extremely (as you can imagine) nose heavy. The small block and the wagon body combined with at least 250/300 pounds less weight should help offset that a lot.
And i agree that the gusseted LCA's probably dont do much with an otherwise stock suspension (modt notably OEM rubber bushed) Mopar, but if it may help any at the limit to me it's worth trying.
As for bone crushing torque in a light car, I have a 427" stroker small block in a 2400 pound Cobra....and for years I rode a Yamaha V-Max.....it's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, but the adrenaline rush of power oversteer works for me. If i owned a road race course i would probably prefer a smaller, higher winding motor better balanced chassis combo...so I do understand and respect your point.
I'll pass on the banana though, I reckon the wagon's got enough yellow as it is!
Posted By: HotRodDave
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/04/14 03:15 AM
I have discovered that all my customers are happier with way to much TQ. Me too!
Posted By: amxautox
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/04/14 03:18 AM
Quote:
I have discovered that all my customers are happier with way to much TQ. Me too!
Torque gets you moving. By the time you get to the next traffic light the horsepower is barely kicking in, maybe. 
Posted By: jcc
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/04/14 11:46 AM
Torque with out adequate traction moves little but the excitement meter.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/04/14 11:21 PM
Knowing that your tires are the limiting factor rather than engine performance is much more, let us say;
exciting...
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 11/04/14 11:33 PM
I'm thinking 26" x 9 Hoosiers could help sort out the traction at the drag strip, I could use hoosier road race type compounds for twisties, and either way the wagon body will help it hook considerably better than a sedan body.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 07/23/15 09:29 PM
Quick update on the wagon, a SLIGHT departure on the 15" cop wheels, lol
You can see the car's coming along there's a thread in Race only about it
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 07/23/15 09:43 PM
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 07/24/15 01:42 AM
I like it alot Wise.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 07/24/15 04:08 PM
Thanks,
for right now I think I'll just go with the 340 .87 T bars , a pair of Helwig bolt-on sways, XHD springs and a good set of Bilstiens. I can always upgrade once it's on the road, I want a decent ride for now until I see how the reinforced chassis deals with all the 440" W2 torque. I don't want a super stiff slot car ride, I want it to feel balanced, as light and nimble as I can without killing the ride.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 07/26/15 07:38 AM
Cool project! I think there is a huge misconception when it comes to ride quality and spring rate. Ride quality is more about the balance between the shock and the spring. When they work well together its a real pleasure. I think the tendency to over spring the rear is the most common way to destroy ride quality. The single best thing we do for ride quality is chassis stiffening. When all the stiffening is done from front to back, so many noises disappear you'd be surprised. Our unibodies in stock form are weak compared to newer cars.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 07/26/15 04:58 PM
Thanks!
Yeah the first order of biz was to fab up frame connectors to handle all the torque. I want to make the car feel nimble but not nessecarily an suto-crosser ( although that would be cool to see, huh?)
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: 66 valiant Wagon 440 W2 - Best handling OEM based parts - 07/26/15 10:28 PM
Bobby, I don't think anyone wants to see a sumo-crosser here...
