Moparts

Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014)

Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 04/29/14 11:52 PM

Hey folks,
I know we had this pretty well buried in another thread, so I figured it would make sense to have it's own thread. I test fit one large and one small sector Borgeson box with a variety of pitmans arms and it seems that the small sector boxes have the fitment issues. I have another Pitman coming from another manufacturer tomorrow and it will be the last of these I try. So for it seems the large boxes don't have any issues, and plenty of thread engagement.
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 01:46 AM

Hey dan, the problems we have seen have been the opposite, good with small - just barely with the large sector, although according to them there is enough thread engagement. Im now wondering if its a quality control issue on their part
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 02:20 AM

Quote:

Hey dan, the problems we have seen have been the opposite, good with small - just barely with the large sector, although according to them there is enough thread engagement. Im now wondering if its a quality control issue on their part



If you do the facebook thing, here is a picture of a large sector with a factory replacement Pitman. Engagement was good, plenty of thread protrusion.

https://www.facebook.com/305030966187707...mp;notif_t=like

The small I just tested today with a Q/R Pitman had terrible engagement. Seems like the sector is too big or the taper is off.
I'll host pictures tomorrow once I finish checking the last arm.
Posted By: brads70

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 02:43 AM

Quote:

Hey dan, the problems we have seen have been the opposite, good with small - just barely with the large sector, although according to them there is enough thread engagement. Im now wondering if its a quality control issue on their part



That's how I understood it too?
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 04:01 AM

in the pick with the big sector, how many threads are showing when you get your 170lbs of torque? I got just about flush with the fast ratio, and slightly worse with the stock moog arm
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 04:44 AM

You guys need to measure the thread length and the splined length and maybe figure out where the issue is for Borgeson. Could be the splined part is GTG and the threads are to short or the splined shaft is to big etc, etc,.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 05:26 PM

Quote:

in the pick with the big sector, how many threads are showing when you get your 170lbs of torque? I got just about flush with the fast ratio, and slightly worse with the stock moog arm



I didn't want to torque it down since we are returning it. The pictures shown is with the nut hand tightened and the threaded portion is flush with the nut. There is full spline engagement.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 08:45 PM

New stuff in, more bad news...

So this is the box full right turn...


And this is the box full left...


I figured, maybe flipping the drag link may help....
And it's worse....


Back the way it should be and "centered"
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 09:57 PM

Good news,
Just spoke with Borgeson about the box, seems the center was so tight we weren't getting all the way through in the other direction and the box can steer past the steering stops. Sweep is good. I'll re-torque the Q/R pit man and the Moog and post pictures as well.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 04/30/14 10:32 PM

Good luck with that 67 idler. You must have more faith than I would. Your first picture looks the most "centered" out of all of them.
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/01/14 02:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

in the pick with the big sector, how many threads are showing when you get your 170lbs of torque? I got just about flush with the fast ratio, and slightly worse with the stock moog arm



I didn't want to torque it down since we are returning it. The pictures shown is with the nut hand tightened and the threaded portion is flush with the nut. There is full spline engagement.



Hmmm weird that they just said mine was fine and shrugged it off when your clearly getting better thread engagement. I still think its a quality control issue that needs to be addressed if everyone is getting different results with different arms. Im just so sick of pulling it off and on again and to ship it back to the states where they might take awhile with it and do nothing, I think ill just leave it the way it is for now and pull it out this winter. Summer is too close and I wanna drive the damn car
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/01/14 02:53 AM

Torqued small sector with our Q/R arms. Last thread of nut isn't engaged.



Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/01/14 03:37 AM

Some measurements of my small sector
length of threads: .97"
diameter or splines at big end: 1.12"
diameter of splines at small end: 1.05"
length of splines: .978"
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/01/14 07:44 AM

Here's a small sector box that was put in last week. Was delivered two weeks or less ago.

Pitman was a new 68-72 A-body regular power steering arm. Don't know the exact brand.

I did not measure the thickness of the pitman. I might be able to get back there and measure.

Attached picture 8130054-IMG_4915.JPG
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/01/14 08:38 AM

Quote:

Torqued small sector with our Q/R arms. Last thread of nut isn't engaged.







thats the way mine looks but large sector:



which according boregson says its fine. Have you talked to them about this? I wonder if you'll get the same answer
Posted By: sublimehemi

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/02/14 03:41 AM

ok guys...i will give you my experience...i was one of the of the first to buy a box...small sector..and i bought pro forged pitman non fast ratio..for my 70 charger..i bought moog pitman so i can do roller bearing mod..just ordered today by the way..but i mocked as is...any way i have many threads showing on engagement...my center link sits so level...if it was sitting flush like yours...my centerlink would be cocked one way...i would post pics but my set up is at shop right now...i will post some pics soon...hope this helps
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/06/14 04:02 PM

Also worth noting, Dougs headers required a bit of massaging to get past the box. They fit the factory box fine.

I spoke with Borgeson a bit more on these boxes and the "tight spot" at center is a by product of them using used gear sets and tightening them up, same as what Firm feel does or can do. Borgeson guys said the tight spot would go away after the gears wore in a bit. It seems to me that unless you REALLY need the 12lbs off the nose or are converting a manual car to power; you can get to the same destination by having your box rebuilt by Firm Feel..
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/06/14 07:52 PM

For the money and machining center they are using you would think the pitman arms would fit correctly. Darn shame.

Any idea if they plan on resolving the issue?
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/06/14 08:15 PM

Thanks dan for posting about the dougs headers. Was wondering how they would fit. Almost bought a set - I bought the hedman headers instead because according to firm feel clear the fast ratio arms. Ill post if they clear the box in the next day or two
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/06/14 09:59 PM

Quote:

Thanks dan for posting about the dougs headers. Was wondering how they would fit. Almost bought a set - I bought the hedman headers instead because according to firm feel clear the fast ratio arms. Ill post if they clear the box in the next day or two



To that point as well, Fast Ratio stuff will not clear the Dougs. Standard Ratio barely fit.
Posted By: roadrunninMark

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/06/14 10:14 PM

Don't forget Steer and Gear does boxes as well. I picked up mine at Carlisle, so I saved shipping (plus shipping a core). This is good for east coasters or carlisle attendees.
Posted By: brads70

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/07/14 03:21 AM

Quote:

For the money and machining center they are using you would think the pitman arms would fit correctly. Darn shame.

Any idea if they plan on resolving the issue?



Bummer! Seems hit and miss as far as fitment goes?
Posted By: beecrazy

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/07/14 04:28 AM

Guys

I must have lucked out with my small sector borgenson box, factory pitman arm , doughs headers and mildon road race pan. No clearance problems at all, 2 or 3 threads showing after nut and lock washer. I had enough clearance to headers that I was entertaining trying a quick ratio pitman arm. This is in a 69 Bee RB block Doughs D452 2" headers. The pain was the lakewood bellhousing with block protector.

Kevin

Attached picture 8136701-photo_3S.JPG
Posted By: beecrazy

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/07/14 04:32 AM

Pitman arm threads

Attached picture 8136706-photo_1S.JPG
Posted By: beecrazy

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/07/14 04:39 AM

Pan Headers and new steering box no issues.

Kevin

Attached picture 8136712-Pan-1.JPG
Posted By: beecrazy

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/07/14 04:52 AM

The steering box install went well for me. I purchased a used steering shaft from a ps steering car last year at Carlisle as mine was a manual steering car. I bought the box along with an install kit with fittings and modified plunge joint around Christmas this year. This setup for me was a true bolt in. I drove car on Sat for the first time and it felt like a new car.

I also did other mods at same time. Removed and welded K frame, new Oil pan, new FF 1.12 Torsion bars and new FF strut rods. I have a hotchkiss 1 3/8 sway bar and FF upper control arm. Just need a good alignment now.

Kevin
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/07/14 11:56 PM

Headman headers 78030 with eddy heads fit confirmed. Lots of clearance around it. Clears fast ratio arms as well. Closest it gets to the box anywhere is still 5/8" away from the head of the top corner bolt. And about 1/2"-5/8" away from the top of the steering coupler depending which way the coupler is turned. Best $150 spent lol
Posted By: brads70

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/08/14 01:06 AM

Quote:

Headman headers 78030 with eddy heads fit confirmed. Lots of clearance around it. Clears fast ratio arms as well. Closest it gets to the box anywhere is still 5/8" away from the head of the top corner bolt. And about 1/2"-5/8" away from the top of the steering coupler depending which way the coupler is turned. Best $150 spent lol



Good to know! Thanks!
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/22/14 10:21 PM

So as we continued down the rabbit hole of using this box, we hit another big issue. Our #7 Doug's Header tube was in direct contact with the steering column (formerly a column shift PS model) After closer examination, we deemed it due to the poor placement of the motor thanks to the /6 to SBM kit we got. So after some deliberation, we got the 73+ K-frame seen in the other thread and some good mounts from Schumaker. After installing everything, the motor was in the correct place, however, steering was in contact with the header tubes even worse than before. At that point we were getting ready to call it quits with the headers and I decided to break out the tape measure. This is what we found:




The steering box seems to be pointing to the engine. I went over to another pre-72 A-Body with a 73+ K-Frame and a factory box and took the same measurement. Not even close. The box appeared to point slightly to the driverside, and was about 3/4" further that way than the Borgeson unit.

My curiosity peaked and I went so far as to throw a factory box in to see if the K-frame was off or the Borgeson box. Imagine my surprise when I got this measurement.





I spent some time on the phone with Borgeson the last couple days as well as e-mail to send them the pictures. The end result is that they feel the U-joint should be able to take up the slack and we ended up having to shim the 2 drivers side bolts to get the input shaft closer to where it needs to be. Not 100% thrilled about that. They said that they have had irregularities from 1/8 inch to 1/2" in input spline location car to car, but it seems odd to me that if I put a factory box back in, everything is where it should be.
Also, this is the large sector box again, that had poor spline engagement with the Pitman, however I was able to get the split washer on. I had not head of this issue before, but thought it may be worth bringing up.

So in current conclusion, the biggest detractors I have with this box are:

1. Pitman spline engagement
2. Build tolerances/quality control
3. These boxes are not new castings, they are rebuilt and modified from used cores and show wear/tear to indicate such.
4. Center "tight spot" is a really tight sector adjustment and will "wear in" after use.

Happy Hot Rodding!
Posted By: brads70

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 02:06 AM

Wow that sure is disappointing to see! I'll stick with my FF box. Is the plate beefy enough to machine it so it sits square? Not that you should have to for that kind of money!
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 03:13 AM

That is no good whatsoever. I feel like a doosh for ever endorsing their product. They need to admit it is not the Mopar K's first off. I could see an 1/8" to MAYBE a 1/4" error but 3/4"??? Uhhh guys that is 100% sucktastic....
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 04:18 AM

So Borgeson folks never heard of Statistical Process Control?

http://www.baldrige21.com/BALDRIGE%20REC...20Training.html
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 05:50 AM

Quote:

So Borgeson folks never heard of Statistical Process Control?




Not many of the aftermarket suppliers have. Not many know what GD&T means either. If the dimensions and tolerances are called out properly on the print then SPC is not really needed. As long as the tolerances of the print are met the part should fit. Now SPC and a corresponding effective QC program would be most beneficial in mass producing a part that meets those requirements consistently and cost effectively. The only challenge I would see is to establish a location tolerance for the frame you are bolting the part to. This frame was made 40+ years ago and may have had a rough life. It is a reality, but too many of the manufacturers we deal with use it as an excuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_dimensioning_and_tolerancing

One of the parts on my car was the "first" for an A body. It did not even come close to fitting. When they said their prototype fit I asked them to send me the engineering drawing. I found the mistake, the drawer (I will not call that person an engineer) did not properly dimension a location which left it open to interpretation by the fabricator. I corrected the print, sent it and the part back. They sent me back a correct fitting part a few weeks later. They picked up all the shipping charges and such and overall were pretty cooperative.

-Michael
Posted By: 68cuda440

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 05:59 AM

Quote:

The end result is that they feel the U-joint should be able to take up the slack and we ended up having to shim the 2 drivers side bolts to get the input shaft closer to where it needs to be. Not 100% thrilled about that.



Can you mill the mounting surface of the box to correct the problem? Determine how much angle needs to be cut to bring it true? I would be more comfortable with that than a shim. If you have access to a mill you could sneak up on it, estimate based on the shim thickness, go halfway and test fit. Repeat until the tolerance is tolerable.

-Michael
Posted By: sublimehemi

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 06:42 AM

great...now you got me scared...i have my borgeson box mounted on qa1 k and gen 2 hemi...i already had to reconfigure my number 1 tube on my tti 2 1/8 header and get it re coated:( its not in car yet...but one thing i noticed about your pic is how crooked the box is...mine sits strait on my qa1 b body k frame...they messed that box up...send back and get new one..for me i have adjustment side to side on my new k and if i have to stick some shims like the factory did on some boxes i will..one thing for sure is i hate mopar power boxes even if they we sent to firm feel...the on center feeling sucks....and i am not going manual...had to many manual steering mopars which blow...keep us updated and i will let you know in a few weeks about mine..
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 08:13 AM

SOB! My confidence is on a downward spiral. I thought these were new units being sold to us. The reason I bought this was for a NEW ps box, otherwise I should have kept my stage 3 FF box at less than half price. I'll have to wait till I can drive my car before I can comment further...

until then here's some pics of the headman headers I used - no fitment issues:





funny, now you mention it, reading your post I never knew that my steering shaft is on a angle, looks to be out about the 3/4" you mentioned...
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 08:21 AM

Mine is at not as bad an angle,but, an angle none the less...
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 08:31 AM

Dan can you measure the distance from centerline of input to centerline of output shafts? It looks like the input shafts are closer to the frame side by its design on the factory box.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 03:38 PM

Quote:

..one thing for sure is i hate mopar power boxes even if they we sent to firm feel...the on center feeling sucks....



That feeling you have is the mesh on the gears being worn in. Firm feel can make it feel like the Borgesons, but just like the Borgeson units, it will "wear in" after some use and there will be no difference. They are both worm and sector boxes, both are 1960's/1970's technology. Unless you get a fresh set of gears cut, once the center wears in, you'll always have that. The only benefit of the Borgeson unit I see as of now is if you are really desperate to lose 15lbs off the nose.

I can get the output shaft measurements, however it would be 2 different cars. The car with the Borgeson box is too far assembled for disassembly. But we have a same year A-body at the shop in the same configuration and a Firm Feel box. Once I get this car off the rack, I'll measure the other car too. Probably about this time next week, as I've got a couple cars in between the two on the schedule.
I'll put it on my board.
Posted By: RUNCHARGER

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 04:31 PM

Thanks for posting this. I was thinking of springing loose the coin for that box, sure glad I didn't now.

Sheldon
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 04:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

..one thing for sure is i hate mopar power boxes even if they we sent to firm feel...the on center feeling sucks....



That feeling you have is the mesh on the gears being worn in. Firm feel can make it feel like the Borgesons, but just like the Borgeson units, it will "wear in" after some use and there will be no difference. They are both worm and sector boxes, both are 1960's/1970's technology. Unless you get a fresh set of gears cut, once the center wears in, you'll always have that. The only benefit of the Borgeson unit I see as of now is if you are really desperate to lose 15lbs off the nose.

I can get the output shaft measurements, however it would be 2 different cars. The car with the Borgeson box is too far assembled for disassembly. But we have a same year A-body at the shop in the same configuration and a Firm Feel box. Once I get this car off the rack, I'll measure the other car too. Probably about this time next week, as I've got a couple cars in between the two on the schedule.
I'll put it on my board.

Dan just so we're clear, I'm wondering about the offset of the shaft centerlines of the boxes. That would be taking K members and different body families out of the equation and compare just the boxes. In your pics it looks like the stock box is offset noticeably more. If you have a loose stock box I have my Borgeson off and I can measure its offset.
opprox 2.5" is what I get
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 06:16 PM

Quote:


opprox 2.5" is what I get




That is about what I'm seeing too without making a fancy jig to get it exact.



Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 06:31 PM

That answers that. Must just be playing with my eyes in your pics. If their tolerances for the mounting ears are that far off, it really makes me Leary of the shaft extension and the rest of the entire damn box too.
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/23/14 11:50 PM

This looks like a great reason to keep the Firm Feel box in any Mopar.
Posted By: brads70

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/24/14 12:52 AM

Dimensions are on page 1 of this post? I'm surprised Peter Bergman has not chimed in yet? He seems to have the most experience with these boxes?


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=3&vc=1

As to the pitman arm issue.... what about machining/grinding a generous say 45 deg angle around the top side of the splines on the pitman arm. Thinking is this might allow the arm to install further up the shaft without weakening the pitman arm allowing the use of the locknut.
Posted By: Rapom65

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 05/24/14 07:21 PM

This is why I wait and watch on new product offerings. Sucks being a BETA tester for someone's new fangled gizmo, especially when the $ is coming out of your own pocket.
Posted By: MadMatt

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 05/25/14 12:16 PM

I have no experience with the Borgenson box in these applications but just thought I'd throw in my . I've got a 74 K-frame in my '70 Dart with a FF box and was pretty happy with it. Then I added the FF Sector Support Kit and now I think it steers just great! I also own a 2007 Jeep Commander with the Borgenson box that these are supposedly based on, and I really don't think there is a significant difference in steering feel. By the way, I have TTI headers and there is no interference whatsoever, and they were easiest set of headers I've ever installed on any car.
Posted By: V8val

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 05/25/14 02:08 PM

Is there any chance the cores they are using are different without them realising ?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 05/25/14 11:26 PM

My BorgBox has no angle to the steeringshaft.

But then again, it had a pinhole leak in a corner at the welded mounting bracket. Borgeson did offer a replacement box for warranty but I decided to fix it myself because I didn't want any downtime on the car since it's my daily.)
So perhaps they have some quality control issues at hand or their welding guy needs a fresh dose of 'motivation'.

That being said, I'm still very happy with the feel and workings of the box.


Posted By: komninon

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 09/18/14 03:43 AM

have had the borgeson box on my 68 charger for 3 months. i am not very happy.....we had to use shims to make it fit. i did not see a huge difference compared to the ff box that i had. my biggest problem is that the gear box mount is getting lose all the time making driving dangerous.
for that kind of money it was supposed to be 100% bolt on at least.
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 09/18/14 05:37 AM

Quote:

have had the borgeson box on my 68 charger for 3 months. i am not very happy.....we had to use shims to make it fit. i did not see a huge difference compared to the ff box that i had. my biggest problem is that the gear box mount is getting lose all the time making driving dangerous.
for that kind of money it was supposed to be 100% bolt on at least.


sounds like there is more to this issue than just the box. What suspension setup are you running?
Posted By: komninon

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 09/18/14 03:19 PM

firm feel front and back
all i changed was the box and the coupler from Bergman Auto Craft
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 09/19/14 06:58 AM

like firm feel a arms, torsion bars, strut rods, fast ratio arms? ect ect? how new are the ball joints, tie rod ends?
Posted By: komninon

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 09/19/14 03:27 PM

everything is new and and tight. never had a problem with ff stage 3 and fast ratio , but i thought i would see a huge improvement with the borgeson box.
Posted By: 73MagDuster

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 09/19/14 07:01 PM


"The steering box seems to be pointing to the engine. I went over to another pre-72 A-Body with a 73+ K-Frame and a factory box and took the same measurement. Not even close. The box appeared to point slightly to the driverside, and was about 3/4" further that way than the Borgeson unit.

My curiosity peaked and I went so far as to throw a factory box in to see if the K-frame was off or the Borgeson box. Imagine my surprise when I got this measurement."

Just saw the same thing and the pitman arm issue with Borg/Berg kit 3 weeks ago on a 73 Challenger with 5.7L/A833 using TTI mounts and headers. Was a manual to power steering swap. Factory manual steering box had zero issues, lined up nice and straight to column. Installed Borg box and noticed immediately the input was pointed at #7. We used the Berg kit with his pot coupling and it would barely clear the header tube but we couldn't run all the column bolts. We ended up shimming the inner 2 steering box mounts about 3/8" to get the angle "acceptable".

This was icing on the cake with my lack of patience for all "bolt-in" Mopar upgrades.

Ranting over the car drives fantastic.
Posted By: JAMESDART

Re: Borgeson / Pitman & Fitment Issue (UPDATED 22 May 2014) - 09/21/14 03:15 AM

man, I really want one of these boxes, but I cant see buying one when they don't fit right.
Posted By: cogen80

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/21/14 04:05 PM

Quote:

Dimensions are on page 1 of this post? I'm surprised Peter Bergman has not chimed in yet? He seems to have the most experience with these boxes?




this all he will say.

from another site he posts on
Quote:

150 Boxes sold with very few issues. I've had all the boxes out there and the Borgeson although not cheap has light years better feel than any factory box.




he never shares much info except that its "light years" ahead of stock ones. not much of a salesman thats for sure. if you remember when he was with XV he would get all wound up and throw insults out instead of trying to explain if/how certain parts were better. needs to work on his customer service skills.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/21/14 10:12 PM

They're obviously having jigging issues, mine has no issues luckily. TTI finally addressed their jigging issues with this box and their headers. Has anyone contacted Borgeson and let them know they have a problem? That is the first thing I would do in this situation.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/21/14 10:17 PM

Quote:

They're obviously having jigging issues, mine has no issues luckily. TTI finally addressed their jigging issues with this box and their headers. Has anyone contacted Borgeson and let them know they have a problem? That is the first thing I would do in this situation.



I've emailed with them and spoken to their folks on the phone. They believe inconsistencies should be resolved by the coupler and shimming.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/22/14 08:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

They're obviously having jigging issues, mine has no issues luckily. TTI finally addressed their jigging issues with this box and their headers. Has anyone contacted Borgeson and let them know they have a problem? That is the first thing I would do in this situation.



I've emailed with them and spoken to their folks on the phone. They believe inconsistencies should be resolved by the coupler and shimming.



I have fought serious issues since replacing FF 3 on our 70 6 pack Challenger.

Very well respected alignment guy tried to set toe. 3 times removed pitman, spun steering wheel 4 turns lock to lock, divided by 2 to achieve top center and could not get pitman to line up with drag link. Tech noted that pitman was not pointed dead ahead as should normally be.
Finally he took left tie rod out as far as threads would allow in order to set toe. Made this tie rod 1/2 half inch longer than opposite one. Even then had to rotate shaft flat spot on steering box shaft output that should be pointed at chassis where Bergman coupler attaches from proper 9 o'clock to 11 o'clock to get pitman attached to draglink.

I have had numerous discussions and email exchanges with Peter Bergman,,he blows me off telling me that alignment guy(25 years experience in a very respected high line racing suspension shop) does not know what he is doing. I have asked Peter to speak with him. He refuses to do so. I did purchase box, coupler and adapter from Peter.

I then spoke likely some 5 times with different personnel at a Borgeson,,,,they tell me to pull the box, send to them and they will examine,,,of course car is then down for several weeks. They too have refused to speak with Dave, my local tech guy.

Finally after speaking with a senior party at borgeson and telling him what I have read on a Chevy forum where they have postings on identical conditions because of fault machining of pitman shaft spline(a couple of these complainers said that the had machined off keying splines to reposition the pitman),,,this senior party(I believe a VP) has now offer to "allow" me to purchase a new box, install it and return the faulty one for analyses. If faulty they will refund my money that I paid for the replacement unit.

I had requested that I be sent a replacement box, that I would provide a CC number for security that I would return old box This was refused,,,I am aware that purchasing a new one and getting a refund when old one is returned sounds the same,,,but somehow does not feel the same,,,if not to give the appearance of good customer relations if nothing else. Interesting observation: Twice now,,,the latest instance a collapsed Scorpion hydraulic roller lifter,,,I called Summit, they sent me a pair of replacement lifter(rollers come in pairs) and followed up with a Fed X mailing label to send back to them the failed lifter once I had pulled it,,,that is customer service that has built them one hell of a business model and a loyal customer following.

Of course I am out the 300 bucks that I have paid my tech(normal alignment charge is 120 dollars the rest for 2 hours of troubleshooting labor), whatever labor to replace the box, plus likely shipping both ways plus a whole lot of frustration and stress. And if new box has same issue, then it is not the box, but something else. But what could it be, they have no idea they say. All suspension components are from a firm called Just Suspensions. They insist their pitman is correct,,,and of course my FF box had zero toe alignment issues when used with their components.

So now here comes the kicker. I had to replace an ignition switch and TS switch on the Challenger last week which meant disconnecting Bergman coupler from the steering box.

When I went to reconnect it I noted that the steering shaft went straight forward as it likely should. However the coupler when attached to the shaft has to make a significant right, let's say less than 25 degree right turn toward the engine In order to mate up with the steering box itself,,,in other words not straight in as it should,,,I recently a large Mopar event had a chance to take a look at a number of cars,,,in all cases the shaft goes completely straight into the box via the coupler. I have taken photos of this alignment issue that clearly shows what is described on our car.

I now suspect the welding job on the updated to fit an E Body Borgeson is tweaked enough to have the box not properly mounted, thereby causing my problems.

My observation along with this informative thread heightens my suspicion and frustration that this box is tweaked for some reason

The car that this box is mounted in is an extremely low mileage car and has never been wrecked or suffered any front suspension problems. The Firm Feel box had no such issues and toe was perfect with tie rods of equal length(unequal lengths can lead to a wealth of handling issues including bump steer and differing turn radias depending on if turning left or if turning right. and box of course is not properly oriented at at top center.

Whereas the Borgeson is off from about 9 pm to about 11 pm from top center,,,the flat spot on shaft spline is about 11:30,,,the set screw that Bergman offers is properly at 9 pm in order to have steering wheel straight and of course not at flat spot on spline where it should be,,,yes I have read Borgeson note on this phenomenon. Not sure if this is reasonable to expect.

I would appreciate any thoughts or opinions on how I should proceed. I would hate to pull this box, send to Borgeson, be told that there is no defect in it or to find that a replacement box too has same issues and be told that is the car or tech and not them.

Would have been helpful for either Bergman or Borgeson speak with my suspension tech, but is not to be. I do almost all my own mechanical work and am quite good at it. However suspensions are quite the mystery to me so must rely on those who are experts in this area.

By the way, I do own another Borgeson that I had planned to install in my 71 Corvette. That plan is on hold for now until I resolve this current problem

Chevy forum link. Borgeson has told me that my problem is different than is this. I now tend to agree with them,,,the Chevy issues sounds like poorly machined pitman shafts, I suspect that my issue because of noted angle of shaft to box is the result of improper 'jig" set up when box was welded,,,,or however they establish proper geometry.

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/311422/

I have spent time seeking a pitman arm that has no keyed splines. Have had several leads that did not pan out. A friend suggested to cold bend my pitman arm, I had considered machining out my arm. My suspension tech is strongly against both ideas.

His suggestion is if Borgeson will not take care of, that I re-install the FF box. Unfortunately I have given it to a friend who is building an outstanding hemi Challenger clone as we speak. Besides that I chose to go with the Borgeson for what I feel were sound reasons and would like to sort this out.

Again seeking opinions on moving forward.

I did some editing of my original posting.

Attached picture 8277235-image.jpg
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/22/14 11:53 AM



that's great customer service from Peter...not.

Posted By: cogen80

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/22/14 01:49 PM

Quote:

I have had numerous discussions and email exchanges with Peter Bergman,,he blows me off telling me that alignment guy(25 years experience in a very respected high line racing suspension shop) does not know what he is doing. I have asked Peter to speak with him. He refuses to do so. I did purchase box, coupler and adapter from Peter.




not going to stay in business very long treating customers like that. sounds like the same attitude problem he used to post here with while working for XV. ya see how long those clowns stayed in business.
Posted By: brads70

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/22/14 02:22 PM

Wow sorry to hear of your troubles. Sounds like the only option is to send it back..... or scrap it and go back to the FF box.
Thanks to all for posting your experiences, it saves others major headaches. I was all set to buy one as the quicker ratio with the fast ratio arms was appealing to me. I'll stick with what I have for now. I wonder is there is enough material on the mounting plate to machine it for a better fit?
Posted By: jon01

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/22/14 02:56 PM

Quote:



that's great customer service from Peter...not.





This right here is why I walked away from buying one of his boxes.
Also, where has he been in this thread once the problems with his product started coming out of the woodwork?
Posted By: captaindodge

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/22/14 07:19 PM

Quote:

Dimensions are on page 1 of this post? I'm surprised Peter Bergman has not chimed in yet? He seems to have the most experience with these boxes?


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...part=3&vc=1

As to the pitman arm issue.... what about machining/grinding a generous say 45 deg angle around the top side of the splines on the pitman arm. Thinking is this might allow the arm to install further up the shaft without weakening the pitman arm allowing the use of the locknut.



The most important dimension is missing! How far is it from the box mounting holes to the input shaft center line???
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 03:20 AM

This is another photo of the angle change that shaft must make at coupler to accommodate Borgeson box.

Attached picture 8277991-image.jpg
Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 03:25 AM

Well, there goes any hope for me to try to even attempt a Gen III Hemi swap with PS. Not worth the headache IMO.
Posted By: sublimehemi

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 07:09 AM

ok guys i just finalized my install and just dropped my column in and it is strait as an arrow...no shims.. and i have aftermarket qa1 k frame...my car is a 70 charger....i also have several threads showing on my pitman arm and i use pro forged standard ratio pitman on small spline borg box....my coupler from bac auto worked out great..ty peter...i could not be happier...
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 02:32 PM

As usual on Moparts this has turned into s***fest.
The same members bash without knowing any of the facts of the situation. I do not manufacture this box, but since I sell it I must service the customer when there are issues.
Countless hours were spent with Roger (sxr) regarding his installation via cell phone, weekends etc. The end conclusion from 3,000 miles away was the option to take the box back to Borgeson. The box has a 3 year warranty so no issues there. However, since the installer NEVER called during the installation process to make a time consuming return process easier, the troubleshooting begins after the install is finished.
The second member here with a complaint called for suggestions. My suggestion was to use a torque wrench to tighten the bolts to the factory spec (125 ft/lbs I believe) and let me know the results. I have seen stock boxes get loose many times because of this step being omitted. I never heard back.
It is apparent the haters on this board have not changed in the 10+ years of my membership here. Clearly, vendors stay away because of this. I am always easy to reach and offer as many solutions to problems as possible. If any of the haters want to call and ask questions, be my guest.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 09:31 PM

The Facts

The last quarter of 2013 I had transported the Challenger to a shop(E Bodies Only) in Madera, Ca., some 150 miles from my home to have the engine removed in order to install a roller cam and Edelbrock heads. Car has TTI headers and I felt easier to pull engine, additionally to do a full tear down inspection to do an spark plug oil fouling analyses.

While engine was out, felt was a good time to upgrade to a Borgeson steering box,,,I already owned one for our 71 Corvette, but had not yet installed.

Ordered steering box, coupler and hose adapter from Bergman after reading Mopar Action article. Ed, owner of E Bodies installed on K member and engine re-installed. He told me that I should have front end alignment done. He had no reason to call Bergman.

When I returned Challenger to my home near San Jose I took it to Borreli Motor Sports whom I feel are as good as it gets in suspension services.

http://borellimotorsports.com/newsite/

Dave, chief technician attempted to align front end and immediately noticed a potential problem that with wheels dead ahead that pitman arm was not pointed correctly.

At least 3 times he pulled pitman arm, turned steering wheel lock to lock, divided by 2 as noted in my earlier post,,,and insisted something was not right,,,could not toe car without running out of threads on tie rod, additionally taking steering box off top center too in order to get correct toe

I then called Borgeson. He spoke to a tech to no benefit except be told that he was doing something incorrect. He did set toe, drove car 3 different times, telling me that box was off top center and 1 tie rod was 1/2 inch or so longer than other and the consequences of each. I told him that I will discuss with Bergman and Borgeson, paid a 300 invoice and left.

Over seceding days I had several telephone conversations and email exchanges(I have copies of all) if anyone cares) with Peter and Borgeson. I requested in several of these exchanges that they have a 3 way 5 minute conference call with Dave of Borrelli,,,Dave was in agreement,,,,Bergman and Borgeson refused,,,assuming I would guess that he was unqualified and any issues was his error.

Peter suggests that I now remove box and send to Borgeson for analyses,,,of course car is down for several weeks. Even this offer was never made earlier on as it was his and Borgesons opinion that this was all user error.

Reminds me of what was somewhat common knowledge in my many year career in the large scale IBM mainframe world. "It is not a recognized IBM bug until every user has reported it twice".

Some months back I had several more conversations with Borgeson. They by now had come to the conclusion that what I was experiencing was possibly their problem. I asked that they send me a replacement box,,,as noted earlier I volunteered to provide a CC deposit. Instead they told me to buy a new box and send in the faulty one and if returned box was faulty, they would return cash expended on the replacement.

Naturally if they 'determine' not their box at fault, I am out another 800 dollars in addition to all other money's I have expended,,,plus the months of aggravation this experience has cost.

There is likely not a member of this forum that had not gone thru the exact same experiences with poorly, manufactured by the lowest bidder stuff that is marketed and sold as of the finest quality. And of course each and every time it occurs it is often the end user or the shop that installed it that absorbs the often very large cash outlays that must be expended to resolve.

Additionally often be the target of barbs that we are a bunch of malcontents.

I would also suggest that those vendors who may complain of their unruly customers who are at times unhappy with faulty products or services,,,they too are often on the receiving ends themselves,,,,think Comcast, Directv, the DMV or post office. We all only want the products and services we paid our hard earned moneys for.

Many successful companies have figured this all out,,,not only they but their customers have greatly benefited.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 10:14 PM

Is it possible the center link is flipped? I'm not defending the Borgeson, just can't see how the box could be that far off unless the shaft was flat out indexed wrong during assembly. IIRC the shaft is cut with 4 master splines as well. Another thing I don't get is if your sure the box is defective, why the fear of sending it back?
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 10:23 PM

Quote:

The Facts

The last quarter of 2013 I had transported the Challenger to a shop(E Bodies Only) in Madera, Ca., some 150 miles from my home to have the engine removed in order to install a roller cam and Edelbrock heads. Car has TTI headers and I felt easier to pull engine, additionally to do a full tear down inspection to do an spark plug oil fouling analyses.

While engine was out, felt was a good time to upgrade to a Borgeson steering box,,,I already owned one for our 71 Corvette, but had not yet installed.

Ordered steering box, coupler and hose adapter from Bergman after reading Mopar Action article. Ed, owner of E Bodies installed on K member and engine re-installed. He told me that I should have front end alignment done. He had no reason to call Bergman.

When I returned Challenger to my home near San Jose I took it to Borreli Motor Sports whom I feel are as good as it gets in suspension services.

http://borellimotorsports.com/newsite/

Dave, chief technician attempted to align front end and immediately noticed a potential problem that with wheels dead ahead that pitman arm was not pointed correctly.

At least 3 times he pulled pitman arm, turned steering wheel lock to lock, divided by 2 as noted in my earlier post,,,and insisted something was not right,,,could not toe car without running out of threads on tie rod, additionally taking steering box off top center too in order to get correct toe

I then called Borgeson. He spoke to a tech to no benefit except be told that he was doing something incorrect. He did set toe, drove car 3 different times, telling me that box was off top center and 1 tie rod was 1/2 inch or so longer than other and the consequences of each. I told him that I will discuss with Bergman and Borgeson, paid a 300 invoice and left.

Over seceding days I had several telephone conversations and email exchanges(I have copies of all) if anyone cares) with Peter and Borgeson. I requested in several of these exchanges that they have a 3 way 5 minute conference call with Dave of Borrelli,,,Dave was in agreement,,,,Bergman and Borgeson refused,,,assuming I would guess that he was unqualified and any issues was his error.

Peter suggests that I now remove box and send to Borgeson for analyses,,,of course car is down for several weeks. Even this offer was never made earlier on as it was his and Borgesons opinion that this was all user error.

Reminds me of what was somewhat common knowledge in my many year career in the large scale IBM mainframe world. "It is not a recognized IBM bug until every user has reported it twice".

Some months back I had several more conversations with Borgeson. They by now had come to the conclusion that what I was experiencing was possibly their problem. I asked that they send me a replacement box,,,as noted earlier I volunteered to provide a CC deposit. Instead they told me to buy a new box and send in the faulty one and if returned box was faulty, they would return cash expended on the replacement.

Naturally if they 'determine' not their box at fault, I am out another 800 dollars in addition to all other money's I have expended,,,plus the months of aggravation this experience has cost.

There is likely not a member of this forum that had not gone thru the exact same experiences with poorly, manufactured by the lowest bidder stuff that is marketed and sold as of the finest quality. And of course each and every time it occurs it is often the end user or the shop that installed it that absorbs the often very large cash outlays that must be expended to resolve.

Additionally often be the target of barbs that we are a bunch of malcontents.

I would also suggest that those vendors who may complain of their unruly customers who are at times unhappy with faulty products or services,,,they too are often on the receiving ends themselves,,,,think Comcast, Directv, the DMV or post office. We all only want the products and services we paid our hard earned moneys for.

Many successful companies have figured this all out,,,not only they but their customers have greatly benefited.



Seems like a very competent shop you had do the alignment.

They (Borgenson) can't fix your box unless they have it.

Sounds like you wanted/implied-for a new box sent out to swap your old one, then send you old one back so you had no down time??
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/23/14 10:33 PM

Quote:

Is it possible the center link is flipped? I'm not defending the Borgeson, just can't see how the box could be that far off unless the shaft was flat out indexed wrong during assembly. IIRC the shaft is cut with 4 master splines as well. Another thing I don't get is if your sure the box is defective, why the fear of sending it back?



Bummer they didn't cut the output shaft without the master splines. Then you could move it to where you want.

But then you will have install problems with people putting the pitman in the wrong spot. Catch 22.



A little off topic...Bummer with Chrysler output shafts is they don't have a defined ridge for the pitman to clamp against. Instead they just rely on the taper of the splines for the pitman to wedge against. That's a tougher replicate and doesn't allow for much precision. But it's cheaper to make originally.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/24/14 02:19 AM

Quote:

Is it possible the center link is flipped? I'm not defending the Borgeson, just can't see how the box could be that far off unless the shaft was flat out indexed wrong during assembly. IIRC the shaft is cut with 4 master splines as well. Another thing I don't get is if your sure the box is defective, why the fear of sending it back?



Center link is not flipped. As noted earlier, replaced FF box aligned well with no issues.

I do not wish to remove and send back and leave car torn down in the garage for several weeks awaiting a replacement.

Do not wish to have faulty box(if truly so) repaired. Any repair would likely require a re-welding. Some folks have even expressed alarm of any welding on a steering box, as it done to adapt these boxes to differing autos.

I do not wish to put out the cash for another box and own two of them. I have already put out at least 1,300 dollars(including labor). Do not want to have 2,000 dollars into a replacement for FF box that I had budgeted for 1,000 dollars.

I believe that if the supplier is at error(which is still an open question,,,this is the purpose of my posting,,,to determine if any other cause could be the problem,,,the reason that I had asked that Borgeson, Bergman, and my technician engage in a conference call), that the the supplier accommodate my request to forward a replacement box with me providing a CC number as a deposit to ensure return of likely at this time defective box.

In the American way, seems a good compromise if supplier screw up, not user error.

So far I have heard nothing that can argue with the photos that I have submitted to suggest other than a box out of spec,,,but as noted earlier on in suspensions, my expertise is limited.

The truth be known however as I do not completely trust the car's steering, I will likely be forced to buy another box and hope for the best on a fair analyses by Borgeson on the one I return and a proper refund.

It will be interesting to 'jig' both boxes up side by side to see how they compare.

As an aside, I do see references in other postings of 'shimming' of boxes. Does this mean what I think that it does,,,shimming the box to accommodate out of kilter boxes, or is for out of kilter 'K' members?

It has been suggested that pitman shaft mis-machined. This was my initial thought,,,see my first post on this thread. However when pulling steering shaft to replace ignition switch, I had paid particular note to the angle the shaft makes going into the coupler, hence the photos and new theory.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/24/14 04:33 AM

Quote:


As an aside, I do see references in other postings of 'shimming' of boxes. Does this mean what I think that it does,,,shimming the box to accommodate out of kilter boxes, or is for out of kilter 'K' members?




It is a production error with the boxes, not the K frames. Earlier in this thread you'll note we throw a stock box back in and everything lines up. We ended up shimming ours with a couple Williams washers.

Also of note, I believe Firm Feel can make an "unkeyed" pitman, or you can meticulously grind the larger key ways out of a standard pitman to make it infinitely adjustable.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/24/14 09:40 AM

On another note, with my '73 Dart I had to shim the factory stock powersteering-box down so the pitman-arm grease zerk stopped gouching the torsion bar.
The Borgeson box however did not require this modification.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 09/25/14 07:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:


As an aside, I do see references in other postings of 'shimming' of boxes. Does this mean what I think that it does,,,shimming the box to accommodate out of kilter boxes, or is for out of kilter 'K' members?




It is a production error with the boxes, not the K frames. Earlier in this thread you'll note we throw a stock box back in and everything lines up. We ended up shimming ours with a couple Williams washers.

Also of note, I believe Firm Feel can make an "unkeyed" pitman, or you can meticulously grind the larger key ways out of a standard pitman to make it infinitely adjustable.



A very smart dude saw this thread and noted to me that there are 36 splines on the output shaft. So each spline move the arm a whole 10 degrees. Well if the pitman is about 8", each spline move the end of the pitman and tie rods about 1.4". That's quite a bit of movement. Not exactly "fine" tuning.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 10/01/14 05:49 PM

I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.
Posted By: jbc426

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 10/04/14 08:02 AM

Quote:

I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.



Roger(Sxrxrnr) is one of the most tenacious men I have had the pleasure of meeting, He won't quite until it is right!

After that, maybe I can even get him to give my old Mopars a run or two. I'll let him pick which car he wants to compete against, but a few runs against both of them would even be more fun.
Posted By: cogen80

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/04/14 06:58 PM

Quote:

I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.




any updates on this?
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/08/14 07:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.




any updates on this?



I did install the replacement box, but alignment issues remained with no change.

I then built a an 1/8th inch shim out of steel stock and inserted it between the steering box and K member on the 2 hole mounting side of the box. This is discussed in detail on another thread that I had initiated on this topic. If anyone is interested I will post a link to that one.

All is perfectly well now,,except minor issue of 1/2 inch difference in tie rod lengths left to right side. Adding a very slight thickness to this shim will likely address this.

Returned one box to Borgeson asking for refund of charge for the box plus shipping charges each way(close to 100 dollars).

They returned the 750 dollars for the steering box charge,,,,but not the shipping charges. Not dealing with Nordstrums, Costco or Summit here,,,I call it a day and moved on. Box and car now performing to initial expectation,,,albeit some 9 months and a few hundred dollars beyond what was anticipated.

Attached picture 8355487-image.jpg
Posted By: dangina

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/09/14 12:35 PM

do you have before and after pics of the box shimmed?
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/09/14 05:38 PM

Do you have a bottom shot in wide angle to see all the linkage from end to end?

A shot of the coupler from the top, close up?
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/09/14 05:51 PM

Are the latest style boxes going to be all new castings/forgings or rebuilt units as well? Anything that saves space is a win. Hopefully Borgeson can get these issues sorted out.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/09/14 07:07 PM

The new boxes are all new and smaller. However, due to the new box being slightly narrower between the pitman and input shafts, there will be some angle built in. The factory coupler will be able to take up the angle without issue.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/09/14 07:19 PM

Quote:

The new boxes are all new and smaller. However, due to the new box being slightly narrower between the pitman and input shafts, there will be some angle built in. The factory coupler will be able to take up the angle without issue.



The factory coupler isn't really there for that. It's there to account for chassis flex in the system not poor engineering.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/09/14 07:46 PM

Quote:

Do you have a bottom shot in wide angle to see all the linkage from end to end?

A shot of the coupler from the top, close up?



After shimming, shaft goes straight in. This photo is before box is shimmed showing angle as shaft enters coupler.

Have not taken photo of entire drag link and tie rods. Can do so and will post when done. Will also post top view photo of coupler/shaft as is post shimming.

Attached picture 8356489-image.jpg
Posted By: Tomswheels

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/09/14 09:13 PM

What headers are those? There is no way my Doug's will fit with the steering angle crowding them...
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/10/14 12:36 AM

Quote:

What headers are those? There is no way my Doug's will fit with the steering angle crowding them...



TTI 2 inch tubes.

Now have more clearance than had with stock(Firm Feel modified) PS steering box. With stock box, header tube actually rested against box,,,had to shove engine slightly toward passenger side to gain 1/4 inch clearance. This box(Borgeson) gives more clearance than did Mopar box.

But with Borgeson I believe that steering shaft itself was a bit tighter to the Borgeson, until I shimmed it to correct its positioning on K member.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/10/14 03:53 PM


The factory coupler isn't really there for that. It's there to account for chassis flex in the system not poor engineering.



I wouldn't call is "poor engineering".

If what you are saying is true, the shaft would not have any ability to rotate in the coupler, it would be a solid sliding part. I agree the factory installations all appear straight, but I bet they are not if they were measured accurately.
The fact of the matter is the new box is narrower between the shafts center to center than the OE box.
The way I see it you have a couple choices. Stay in the dark ages being the only make with 60 year old steering, use the new box and get over that visual part of the angle that doesn't present any operational malfunction or design, market and engineering something better.
I'm all ears!
Posted By: Tomswheels

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/10/14 04:30 PM

Quote:


The factory coupler isn't really there for that. It's there to account for chassis flex in the system not poor engineering.



I wouldn't call is "poor engineering".

If what you are saying is true, the shaft would not have any ability to rotate in the coupler, it would be a solid sliding part. I agree the factory installations all appear straight, but I bet they are not if they were measured accurately.
The fact of the matter is the new box is narrower between the shafts center to center than the OE box.
The way I see it you have a couple choices. Stay in the dark ages being the only make with 60 year old steering, use the new box and get over that visual part of the angle that doesn't present any operational malfunction or design, market and engineering something better.
I'm all ears!



And what do you reccommend I do with $500 worth of headers that no longer fit?
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/10/14 04:34 PM

Quote:


The factory coupler isn't really there for that. It's there to account for chassis flex in the system not poor engineering.



I wouldn't call is "poor engineering".

If what you are saying is true, the shaft would not have any ability to rotate in the coupler, it would be a solid sliding part. I agree the factory installations all appear straight, but I bet they are not if they were measured accurately.
The fact of the matter is the new box is narrower between the shafts center to center than the OE box.
The way I see it you have a couple choices. Stay in the dark ages being the only make with 60 year old steering, use the new box and get over that visual part of the angle that doesn't present any operational malfunction or design, market and engineering something better.
I'm all ears!



1. the shaft doesn't rotate in the stock coupler, it slides and it only slides.

[image]http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/attachment.php?attachmentid=1714585377&stc=1&d=1358819324[/image]

2. The Delphi box is still recirculating ball, just like my "60 year old" design box. It is just calibrated different. If it were "modern" it'd be rack and pinion.

3. The Delphi box's ratio is 14:1, OEM is 14.7:1, not real difference.

4. The Delphi box is smaller and lighter.

5. For half the price I can get FF to rebuild my box, recalibrate the feel and have it fit properly.

6. if I wanted the most room I'd run R&P.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/10/14 05:05 PM

If you've ever worked with the coupler, it CAN rotate in all directions. The factory ratio is 16:1 btw. The valving on the Delphi box is light years ahead of the oe box. Don't knock it until you've tried it, and get your facts straight before spouting off from behind your keyboard.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. I'm very easy to get a hold of for intelligent conversation. For some reason, when it comes to this board people loose their manners.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/10/14 10:47 PM

I thought the factory ratio was 15.7 ?
I agree that there are some real [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] members here. They'd complain about being hung with a new rope. THEY often excuse their complaints by saying that the parts will never improve if we just accept inferior designs. This is true to some extent but you can find fault in almost any design if you are "that" type of person.
This steering box may be great but the cost keeps me out of it.
The 4 speed auto from the company that bought out Kiesler sounds great too. again, $5000-$6500 is far out of reach.
I'll never buy any one of those coli over front end sets for my classics, but that is because I disagree with their design.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/11/14 02:25 AM

It has already been determined that the steering box needs to be shimmed in order to align its centerline with the centerline of the steering column. If the ctr line is skewed it's geometric effect is seen in the ctr to ctr distance betw the right and left side tire rods.

It is incorrect to install this steering box without aligning the box to the steering culoumn and maybe then the tie rods will set up properly side to side. It is bad advice to tell some one it's ok to install the box crooked and there is no need to shim for proper alignment and that its perfectly ok for the coupling to be misaligned with the box. Wow. Then there are the smart people figuring out what the problems are and the solution gets ignored.

So where is the shim plate to properly support the product? The box needs a solid platform to mount to.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/11/14 03:05 AM

Take a look at my posted photos that was taken from underneath the steering box. You can see the shim that I made out of 1 inch wide by 1/8th inch steel stock.

In the photo you can see the shiny steel shim between the black paint of the K member and the steering box.

The post photo is several postings above this one,,,also read the associated text. You can also use Williams washers as Hotchkis had recommended.

If you do not shim you will have toe alignment issues, box will not be on top crnter and shaft will be at an angle into coupler,,,which is the least concern. The angle just illustrates that you likely have a problem.

I post the photo again.

Attached picture 8358037-image.jpg
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/11/14 04:09 AM

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 12/11/14 05:58 AM

Why cant they just weld the fuggin ears on right? They have perfected welding them on 12 degrees frickin off! Do they live in a cave with a company wide ban on photographs?
Posted By: redmist

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/24/16 04:01 AM

Bump to the top!!!

Add me to the list of folks who can't get the box centered. This is one of the new "Smaller" boxes.

I have it installed on a QA1 K. I had to add a washer on the outboard mounting bolt to get the box to even be close to engaging the coupler from Bergman.

Now it's all in, and it has a nasty angle from the steering shaft to the box. Not a big deal...

However!

I also now have the tie rods that can't be adjusted into spec. The passenger side is bottomed out of adjustment and can't get to spec. The wheel is still toed in. The drivers side is adjusted way out, and can get to spec, but the length difference between each tie rod is almost 2"!!

To correct this issue, I would need to shim the double bolt side of the box. This would put the input as such an extreme angle that the Bergman coupler would have to have the dust shield/gasket removed to even engage the splines in the box.

I am thinking my only option is to remove the pitman, grind out the four master splines, and install the pitman one spline out of phase.

It is a dang small box though!
Posted By: joes68340s

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/24/16 05:21 AM

I have to agree with you Tom I have driven with the Firm feel boxes and I am not impressed. The set up in the Valiant with the new box and the cooler is great and there is plenty of space around the box.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/24/16 05:56 AM

Originally Posted By redmist
Bump to the top!!!

Add me to the list of folks who can't get the box centered. This is one of the new "Smaller" boxes.

I have it installed on a QA1 K. I had to add a washer on the outboard mounting bolt to get the box to even be close to engaging the coupler from Bergman.

Now it's all in, and it has a nasty angle from the steering shaft to the box. Not a big deal...

However!

I also now have the tie rods that can't be adjusted into spec. The passenger side is bottomed out of adjustment and can't get to spec. The wheel is still toed in. The drivers side is adjusted way out, and can get to spec, but the length difference between each tie rod is almost 2"!!

To correct this issue, I would need to shim the double bolt side of the box. This would put the input as such an extreme angle that the Bergman coupler would have to have the dust shield/gasket removed to even engage the splines in the box.

I am thinking my only option is to remove the pitman, grind out the four master splines, and install the pitman one spline out of phase.

It is a dang small box though!
You need to un-couple your coupler and center your pitman and idler so they are equal distance from the frame rails, then put on the coupler with your steering wheel centered. The set screw on the coupler DOES NOT align with the flat on the input shaft EVER.
Posted By: redmist

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/24/16 07:46 PM

If I did that, then the box would be 30% out of center when the steering components were square.


My options are:

1. Un-center the steering boxes travel range, and square up the components under the car.

2. Center the box, and move the pitman arm 10deg by eliminating the master splines.


Right now my current setup is that the box is perfectly centered in it's range of travel left to right (Internal stops in box) The steering wheel is perfectly centered on the perfectly centered box, with a perfectly centered coupler (Ignoring the flat, I put it where it needed to be)
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/24/16 08:21 PM

Well in your case I would call Peter, if you bought it from him, and see about returning it. Mine is on center with the Pitman/Idler where they should be.
Posted By: gold66cuda

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/25/16 04:53 AM

"Mine is on center with the Pitman/Idler where they should be."


So is mine!
Posted By: redmist

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/26/16 06:17 AM

How bad would it be to run this box off of it's center point? As it stands, in order to make everything correct under the car, the steering box is turned 90deg' to the right off of it's center point.

I am thinking that the main shaft on these boxes is cut incorrectly, as well as the mounting ears are welded wrong.

Or!

They knew all the shafts were cut incorrectly, Didn't want to eat the cost of making new ones and decided to try and fix the problem by welding the ears for the boxes out of time to move the box more in the direction of the offset (wrong) cut center shaft.

The byproduct of this is that now we have the terrible angle from steering column to coupler.

As I think about it, if I were to remove the shim in my box, it would make the coupler impossible to get on the shaft, however doing so would fix all the centering issues.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/28/16 10:20 AM

Originally Posted By Sxrxrnr
Take a look at my posted photos that was taken from underneath the steering box. You can see the shim that I made out of 1 inch wide by 1/8th inch steel stock.

In the photo you can see the shiny steel shim between the black paint of the K member and the steering box.

The post photo is several postings above this one,,,also read the associated text. You can also use Williams washers as Hotchkis had recommended.

If you do not shim you will have toe alignment issues, box will not be on top crnter and shaft will be at an angle into coupler,,,which is the least concern. The angle just illustrates that you likely have a problem.

I post the photo again.



It's been some 16 months since I finally gotten everything squared away with the Borgeson in my E Body. All is well and am pleased with the way the car drives. The shim was the ticket to success, but still pi$$ed at the crapola that I had to go thru feuding with the responsible vendors as they told me that my issues were likely because I was a dumb [censored] and my alignment guy didn't have a clue either,,,,when we were insble to get the car to proper toe whilst having the steering box indexed to top center.

The shim took care of all issues. However have never been 100 % easy with having that shim in there, wondering about possible unnatural stress on the box.

A few months ago did install a Borgeson in wife's 55 T Bird. A real pita, but none of which was Borgeson's fault this time,,,they don't make a kit for these cars. Was fantastic to rid the T Bird of the mess of slave cylinders, ram pistons and multiple leaky hoses inherent to the stock Ford PS setup and to take 3 inches of play out of steering wheel. Makes an honest driver out of this 60 year old Bird.
Posted By: redmist

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/29/16 03:34 AM

I removed my shim, and now the angle on the column is so extreme that it's hard to turn with the wheels in the air. I am told this is normal! Also with the box simply mounted in as instructed, neither of the ears are flat on the K-Frame. The twin bolt mount is angled when tightened down so I can see light on one side of the ear....

No worries! crank her down! hope the ear doesn't break off.

Taking the shim out brought my alignment closer to center. I can now square up the front, and the tie rods are equal length now. The box is now only about 45 degrees one way off of center.

If I could let the column soak up an additional 20 degrees of angle, I think we would all be good! I would have to grind a channel in the side of the coupling to allow that though.

I will save that mod for another day. shruggy
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/29/16 01:59 PM

Anyone have any new pics to show?
I would love to see some fresh (viewable) pics in this topic again.

If the alignment is really that far off, given the cost of these boxes, why not just send it back for a new box or ask for a refund?


By reading the alignment-issues most seem to have with their Borgboxes, I'm wondering if I was just lucky enough that my Borgeson box didnt' need any shimming at all.
Although mine did leak a drop every 10 seconds with running engine caused by a pinhole in a weld.
Posted By: Sxrxrnr

Re: Borgeson / Pitman Fitment Issue - 03/29/16 06:16 PM

Originally Posted By jbc426
Quote:
I have now ordered and paid up for a replacement steering box. 750 dollars plus shipping. Will post outcome once installed.


Roger(Sxrxrnr) is one of the most tenacious men I have had the pleasure of meeting, He won't quite until it is right!

After that, maybe I can even get him to give my old Mopars a run or two. I'll let him pick which car he wants to compete against, but a few runs against both of them would even be more fun.


As if on cue, both John with his Black Beauty and I with my Hemi Orange Challenger ended up on the same extra long freeway on-ramp one Saturday afternoon after leaving an annual open house event at one of Silicon Valley's most noted high performance restomod building shops, Cambell Auto Restoration Services(CARS). No firm conclusions were to be drawn that day ,,,however it was certainly the most invigorating Sweaty Palm event that I have experienced in the last 40 years.

Thank you John for a memory that will remain with me for the rest of my life.
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