Moparts
Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
Posted By: PHJ426
Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/29/13 11:38 PM
After seeing the install of the T56 on RP's Cuda and the floor work that has to happen for the T56 to be installed I have a few questions.....
Is the T56 6 speed that much stronger than the Passion 5 speed?
Is having 6 gears more important than 5?
Is cutting the factory transmission / torsion bar crossmember a big deal?
Or is all well after it has been rejoined over the top of the trans like in RP's Cuda?
Any other opinions or suggestions on the Passion 5 speed vs T56 6 speed that I have not covered?
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 12:16 AM
From what I understand of the six speeds:
If rear axle gear is high numerically it makes 1st and possibly 2nd not very usable.
If rear axle gear is low numerically it makes 6th not very usable (on highway - might be different on track)
Reconfiguring the tunnel and cross member is quite a bit of work.
If one of the gears, 1st or 6th, are some what unusable you essentially have a 5 speed anyway, whats the sense in going through all that installation hassle?
If I remember right Jamie said he felt his trans would hold up to 750 ft lbs.
I know which way I'd go.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 12:49 AM
One is the T56 Magnum you can order and have next day'd if needed and the trans costs $2895 instead of $4300+. The T56 is essentially geared identical to an 833 but with 2 extra OD gears. Plus the shifting of a T56 is snick,snick not row,row like an 833. If I had a numbers matching rarity that I wanted to drive I would go with the Passon if,if,if I could get one. Some people require a bolt in trans so if that is the case the $4300 makes sense. All 6 of my gears are very usable indeed.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 01:02 AM
Can a Hurst handle and pistol grip shifter be installed on the T56 or is the cue ball the only option?
Also is it best to cut the floor and crossmember with weight off the front end and torsion bars backed off so everything can be welded in the "at rest position" and unloaded?
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 01:07 AM
T 56 shifts great, I had one behind a 400Hp LT1 in one of the other cars we can't talk about on Moparts and it worked great. The rear end had 373's with a torsen and it was fun to drive. If I was installing one again I would not go lower than 355 gears. This is a proven transmission that you can get parts for anywhere if something breaks, and they all break.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 01:12 AM
Right now I have a 26" tall tire all 4 corners and a 2.94 SG rear end in the car with the 727 trans in it now.
Column shifted automatic is definitely boring and the bench seat, well that has to go before I start taking corners in this car or Ill be sliding all over the place.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 01:13 AM
Quote:
Can a Hurst handle and pistol grip shifter be installed on the T56 or is the cue ball the only option?
Also is it best to cut the floor and crossmember with weight off the front end and torsion bars backed off so everything can be welded in the "at rest position" and unloaded?
Any Comp Plus handle works on the Magnums and on my Viper T56 I installed a Hurst 03/04 Mustang Billet shifter in and then it too uses any Comp 2 bolt handle as well. I found a used CF E-body Pistol grip handle on ebay.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 01:45 AM
Swinger, nothing can beat a new tranny for shift quality that is for sure. Out of curiosity what is your rear axle ratio? I would think if it is not within a certain ball park you would have to include a new ring and pinion in the cost calculation to keep all six in the "sweet spot". Asking because I truly don't know.
Isn't a Quick Time bell required and aren't they in the $600 neighborhood? What else has to be purchased or modified: clutch, clutch linkage, shifter handle & ball, yoke & u joints, does the drive shaft have to be cut? Does the $2895 include all that?
Not trying to be a pecker but you have to be all inclusive in cost comparisons and time/effort involved. Is the Passion a glorified aluminum case 883 OD? Yes. Is a T56 superior? Probably, but is it really cheaper? Labor may be free or maybe the OP would have to pay someone to do the install due to skills, time, tools?
My only experience with swapping in a modern trans was helping my friend install a "no mods" Keisler 5 speed. What a frickin nightmare. To this day it still wont shift worth a damn and that's after another clutch & throwout bearing and a trip back to the manufacturer. He is a very dissatisfied customer.
Posted By: CumminsExpress
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 02:21 AM
I just got a t56 2000 viper tranny with 30,000 miles delivered for $1100 you have to be patient and wait for one took 2 months. the quick time was $595 shipped the tranny has a hyd throw out bearing so will add a hyd set up for the pedal.
I got the viper because I want the .50 6th gear
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 02:44 AM
Quote:
Swinger, nothing can beat a new tranny for shift quality that is for sure. Out of curiosity what is your rear axle ratio? I would think if it is not within a certain ball park you would have to include a new ring and pinion in the cost calculation to keep all six in the "sweet spot". Asking because I truly don't know.
Isn't a Quick Time bell required and aren't they in the $600 neighborhood? What else has to be purchased or modified: clutch, clutch linkage, shifter handle & ball, yoke & u joints, does the drive shaft have to be cut? Does the $2895 include all that?
Not trying to be a pecker but you have to be all inclusive in cost comparisons and time/effort involved. Is the Passion a glorified aluminum case 883 OD? Yes. Is a T56 superior? Probably, but is it really cheaper? Labor may be free or maybe the OP would have to pay someone to do the install due to skills, time, tools?
My only experience with swapping in a modern trans was helping my friend install a "no mods" Keisler 5 speed. What a frickin nightmare. To this day it still wont shift worth a damn and that's after another clutch & throwout bearing and a trip back to the manufacturer. He is a very dissatisfied customer.
I agree, and the Passon has its place for ie; 1970 Hemi Cuda with a 4 spd already in it would be a perfect candidate. I think I have right around $3-3200 in my entire conversion. Yes Quicktime bell was $535 a year and a half ago when I bought it. Take into account that it is a scattershield and sfi cert'd. 10.5" Flywheel $150, clutch $300, driveshaft $400, Hurst billet shifter $130, shift handle ???, Viper slave cylinder $125 (Dorman), Wilwood master $100, braided line $30, an fitting $20, metal for floor and crossmember $75 etc. I already had clutch pedals. Here is a pic of my homemade clutch master setup with the Wilwood 7/8" bore master.
Posted By: CumminsExpress
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 03:02 AM
what clutch are your 72?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 03:17 AM
I found a Kevlar Zoom, slightly used, 26 spline Chevy disc at a swap meet for $50. Then I bought a Spec #gm012 pressure plate. When I get another engine together I have a new McLeod RST #6913-07 that I found for $375 shipped.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 03:20 AM
When I converted my 87 Diplomat over to 4 speed I rebuilt the A833, new Hurst Comp shifter. It was smooth shifting, two fingers is all it took. Taught two of my daughters how to drive stick with that car.
I did take the shifter apart, smooth any burrs, light polish on the shifter levers, clean, grease and reassemble. Nothing magic, just a once over.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 03:51 AM
That should have been "shifter and handle" sorry.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 03:58 AM
Quote:
That should have been "shifter and handle" sorry.
NO,no I put question marks because shifter handle prices are all over the place. My first shifter was a $70 bent billet Longacre with a $12 Hurst black plastic ball. For some reason the Pistol Grip was to irresistible to not get. I honestly have more confidence with it too.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:04 AM
I've got the E body pistol grip and carbon fiber panels just like yours. Love the way it feels/looks but I hope it's not going to be up against my leg once I get this thing on the road.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:10 AM
What trans/car? The Longacre placement wise was perfect, IIRC it had a 3" setback. If the PG was bent rearward about 1.5" it would be better for cruising. When I hit the track though and the seat gets slid forward a bit, it should be fine though.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:18 AM
It's a standard 4 speed hump and OD trans in my Duster that is offset to the driver's side so much. I have a work around figured out if it becomes an annoyance.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:31 AM
If I installed a T56 in an old Mopar and cut the tunnel and torsion bar crossmember I would install some tubing from the firewall through the top of the trans tunnel cut all the way back to the rear crossmember somehow. Along with building the tying in of the upper trans crossmember.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:39 AM
Some pics of mine
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:43 AM
T-bar crossmember is 2x1/2x1/4" C-channel that is plated underneath the bends.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:44 AM
Rear of it
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:46 AM
Underneath
Posted By: roadrunner69s
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:47 AM
I know the Tremec T56's made in Mexico from 1998-2004 are somewhat weak on forks and synchros...at least compared to the T56's that were built in earlier years by Borg-Warner. I don't know if the quality has improved since then. If using one of these I'd insure that all the earlier weak links were taken out on the rebuild. To me, T56's can be a litte rattly with various whines specific to each build. I don't know what quality the factory is putting out on these for new aftermarket builds. Other than for highway cruising at >65 mph the 6th gear (with 3.55 or lower ratio) has limited use. I have 3.42's and 1st through 4th covers about 98% of all my driving. With real stiff rear gears 5th and 6th probably become a lot more handy. I know that having that extra 6th gear slot has lead to occasional missed shifts in either direction. My favorite is going from 3rd to 6th and losing all power. And 6th to 3rd at highway speed to climb a hill can be fun too, though pretty rare. Sometimes I wish 6th weren't there so those 3-4 or 6-5 shifts weren't as "missable."
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 04:51 AM
18 gauge sheet for tunnel.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 05:00 AM
Quote:
I know the Tremec T56's made in Mexico from 1998-2004 are somewhat weak on forks and synchros...at least compared to the T56's that were built in earlier years by Borg-Warner. I don't know if the quality has improved since then. If using one of these I'd insure that all the earlier weak links were taken out on the rebuild. To me, T56's can be a litte rattly with various whines specific to each build. I don't know what quality the factory is putting out on these for new aftermarket builds. Other than for highway cruising at >65 mph the 6th gear (with 3.55 or lower ratio) has limited use. I have 3.42's and 1st through 4th covers about 98% of all my driving. With real stiff rear gears 5th and 6th probably become a lot more handy.
The Magnums are made in South America somewhere to this day. I know the GM T56's used lighter duty parts everywhere possible, like the forks in those were pot metal or aluminum and Vipers always used steel. And I agree quality control at BW was probably head and shoulders above Mexico. Im not here to defend T56's, I only own one. But before I bought mine I did a ton of research and got alot of info from a guy who maintained/built the transmissions for the Woodhouse Viper race effort. The biggest thing he kept making a point of is the clearances and setup is crucial to shift quality and the life of them as a whole.
Posted By: Jerry
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 01:07 PM
ok this is probably a stupid question, but what do you do about carpet after you cut the floor all to bit and stretch to stuff the T56 in? can stock carpet be remolded or do you need something different?
Posted By: jcc
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 02:29 PM
Has the richmond 5 spd lost all favor in this discussion?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 02:37 PM
Quote:
ok this is probably a stupid question, but what do you do about carpet after you cut the floor all to bit and stretch to stuff the T56 in? can stock carpet be remolded or do you need something different?
I re-used the carpet that was already in the car. It had to re-mold itself back in the footwells a little but its good to go. My cross member was made like it was for this reason, to keep the tunnel height at a minimum.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 07:57 PM
Quote:
Has the richmond 5 spd lost all favor in this discussion?
isn't the richmond a 1:1 5th gear, making it an ideal "race only" transmission? the question here is about the Passion OD trans vs the T56, an OD trans.
anyway, I love the T56. I have one in my Dakota and don't have any complaints. Now, for the 3rd generation Dakota, it truely is a "bolt in" transmission, no sheetmetal modification required.
that said, I spent $1500 in the transmission off Ebay (used Viper spec T56) the quicktime bell was about $500, and then I got a custom flywheel made that had the tone ring for the factory EFI, cost me about $500. (non EFI motors can use a much cheaper flywheel option) and I have about $250 in my clutch.
the hydraulics are a hybrid of the SRT-10 truck hydrualic bearing (yes, slightly different than the viper part) and the stock Dakota master cylinder.
it was a pretty simple swap that if I had a factory 5-spd truck and the parts, I could knock it out in a day. If I had to start with an auto truck that needed a hole cut, and pedals added, then I would venture to say that it might take me a day and a half to 2 days.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 08:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Has the richmond 5 spd lost all favor in this discussion?
isn't the richmond a 1:1 5th gear, making it an ideal "race only" transmission?
No, not necessarily. It simply allows you to reduce rear end ratios and use "economy" gear sets like 2:94, 3:08, and 3:23, which a lot of guys have kicking around as throw aways.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 08/30/13 11:07 PM
I have a Doug Nash 4+1 in my '65 Coronet. I was probably one of the first guys to do a 5 speed swap into a Mopar. I put the Doug Nash in my car about 30 years ago. I don't recall the serial number on the trans put it was an early one. It was more work than I could handle at the time but it was fairly simple for a local street rod guy. He moved the shifter box in the tunnel and made some mods to the crossmember. The linkage had to be custom built and there were a few other odds and ends.
Posted By: 375inStroke
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/09/13 08:55 PM
New A-855 AVAILABLE SOON!
When?
Posted By: AlexP
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/09/13 09:35 PM
The biggest advantage for the T56 is the fact that it exists.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/09/13 11:16 PM
Quote:
The biggest advantage for the T56 is the fact that it exists.
price I got a 2005 viper t56 6spd with 3,000 miles on it I know because I took it out of the car for 1,700 dollars then I put it behind my 600 hp small block now I have miles of smiles lol
Posted By: BrianShaughnessy
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 12:48 AM
I put a T56 in my old 89 Firebird after taking out a T5... so much happier. It was from a 95 TA / 2.66 1st, .5 6th.
3.70 gears in the car... it's awesome. If anything tho a .62 6th gear would be better. .5 is just too much.
The TKO600 made me so much happier than rowing the 833 in the Charger... the only perceivable problem is the big drop from 4th to 5th with the .64 5th and 3.73 gears. Somewhere between 45 to 50 mph I start thinking about upshifting but I really need to wait till 55ish.
If you got the guts I'd do the T56... I sorta wish I did myself.
If you got a friend with a T56 equipped car I'd recommend taking one for a ride just to try it out.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 01:21 AM
Quote:
Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
None that I can see, that's comparing apples to oranges IMO.
The Passon is a bolt in 5 speed with ZERO hacking required to install it (The Passon is all alone in this niche, there is no competition) plus the Passon uses the stock bell housing, clutch, drive shaft, shifter location, etc. For an original car I don't see that there are any other good choices.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 02:05 AM
If a car has a 5 speed installed does that make it "not original"?
I do understand your point on the cutting the floor and trans/torsion bar mount cross member.
There has to be a point where an all original car is 100% original things like Detroit Air in the spare and so on.
My question should have probably been more specific like is it really necessary to have 6 speeds instead of 5 in a car that gets driven on the street to get to the track or high speed driving event .......not for a concourse show car.
Posted By: RylisPro
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 02:49 AM
Quote:
My question should have probably been more specific like is it really necessary to have 6 speeds instead of 5 in a car that gets driven on the street to get to the track or high speed driving event .......not for a concourse show car.
No, it is not NEEDED to have a 6 speed but I had one installed because I have always WANTED one in my car. My other car is a 6 speed and I would not have been happy with any less gears. I saved up my money for a long time and went ahead with the install before I got to spend it on anything else. Believe me I was on the fence about the install but I figured you only live once and said screw it what do I got to lose?!
I did notice that my gas mileage went up though!
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 02:53 AM
Quote:
If a car has a 5 speed installed does that make it "not original"?
I do understand your point on the cutting the floor and trans/torsion bar mount cross member.
You just answered your own question.
Quote:
There has to be a point where an all original car is 100% original things like Detroit Air in the spare and so on.
Not sure what your question is on that one?
Quote:
My question should have probably been more specific like is it really necessary to have 6 speeds instead of 5 in a car that gets driven on the street to get to the track or high speed driving event .......not for a concourse show car.
In my experience a 6 speed won't offer much real world advantage over 5 speed for a driver or occasional track car.
What I like about the Passon 5 speed is simply this; If someone has a stock car with a body that hasn't been modified in any way and who wants to install a transmission which will allow the car to be more fun to drive he can do so with no worries about originality, and that's because it's a simple bolt in to swap back the stock original without worrying about body work on the floors and tunnel. The rarer and more desirable the car, the more this matters to some.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 02:55 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed?
None that I can see, that's comparing apples to oranges IMO.
The Passon is a bolt in 5 speed with ZERO hacking required to install it (The Passon is all alone in this niche, there is no competition) plus the Passon uses the stock bell housing, clutch, drive shaft, shifter location, etc. For an original car I don't see that there are any other good choices.
More like comparing apples to unicorns, one is a real transmission that has been around for years and the other is not in the hands of the public. Plus this is the corning section were most guys don't mind a bit of cutting or fender rolling. Not many here have big dollar original number matching cars that they are road racing.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 03:02 AM
Quote:
More like comparing apples to unicorns, one is a real transmission that has been around for years and the other is not in the hands of the public. Plus this is the corning section were most guys don't mind a bit of cutting or fender rolling. Not many here have big dollar original number matching cars that they are road racing.
So I guess a guy who road races AND enjoys original cars isn't welcome in your little club?
Why then was a transmission that's "not yet in the hands of the public" even being asked about? If you want to compare transmissions why not compare products that have been around a while in racing? Why drag a Passon into it?
Posted By: ahy
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 03:17 AM
Quote:
If a car has a 5 speed installed does that make it "not original"?
I do understand your point on the cutting the floor and trans/torsion bar mount cross member.
There has to be a point where an all original car is 100% original things like Detroit Air in the spare and so on.
My question should have probably been more specific like is it really necessary to have 6 speeds instead of 5 in a car that gets driven on the street to get to the track or high speed driving event .......not for a concourse show car.
Necessary... no. Beneficial, yes. I run a Keisler TKO 5 speed (and like it). The choice of OD ratio was a compromise. The .82 or "close" ratio was an ideal top speed gear with my setup. The steeper .64 (from memory) was a better cruise gear for best economy and least noise and wear. I went with the .82. It cruises at 75 mph/2700 RPM. No problem. That said, the 496 would be happy cruising in the lower 2000's and get better mileage with less noise and wear. A six speed could do both.
Posted By: ahy
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 03:24 AM
I wonder how one of these would do in a handling application? Rated 1200 HP and shifts at the pull of a lever with no clutch.
http://www.lencoracing.com/ST1200MasterPage.html
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 03:44 AM
Quote:
Quote:
More like comparing apples to unicorns, one is a real transmission that has been around for years and the other is not in the hands of the public. Plus this is the corning section were most guys don't mind a bit of cutting or fender rolling. Not many here have big dollar original number matching cars that they are road racing.
So I guess a guy who road races AND enjoys original cars isn't welcome in your little club?
Why then was a transmission that's "not yet in the hands of the public" even being asked about? If you want to compare transmissions why not compare products that have been around a while in racing? Why drag a Passon into it?
I never claimed to be the club welcoming committee, and I have no idea way someone would ask about a transmission that is not on the market, you would have to ask the guy who posted that question. I did not drag the Passon into anything, the original poster asked about it and you jumped in to tell us all the advantages it has, even though I can't buy one.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 04:08 AM
Quote:
I did not drag the Passon into anything, the original poster asked about it and you jumped in to tell us all the advantages it has, even though I can't buy one.
The Passon transmissions are currently being built, the way to buy one is to call him and get your name put on the waiting list as he has a good number of customers already in line, 300 or more from what I last heard. I got on the list way back when he first started it and based on recent phone calls I'll have mine very soon, I'll post pics when it arrives.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 06:49 AM
Why would it not be relevant to compare a much hyped and anticipated 5 speed to a currently available 6 speed?
Posted By: dangina
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 07:02 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I did not drag the Passon into anything, the original poster asked about it and you jumped in to tell us all the advantages it has, even though I can't buy one.
The Passon transmissions are currently being built, the way to buy one is to call him and get your name put on the waiting list as he has a good number of customers already in line, 300 or more from what I last heard. I got on the list way back when he first started it and based on recent phone calls I'll have mine very soon, I'll post pics when it arrives.
curious, saw this a long time ago, I think they have said available soon for the past year or two, did they give you a set date yet? would like to see a few guys running them before i pull the plug
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 12:31 PM
Quote:
Why would it not be relevant to compare a much hyped and anticipated 5 speed to a currently available 6 speed?
How would you compare them if you can't test one of the two?
Maybe we should wait till it's out there and see.
I remember all the hype regard Shafti's no cut, no hassle 5 speed that was neither when it finally hit the market. I suspect Jaime saw that and the delays involved is due to him taking the time to get it right and not to make a quick buck, we will see.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 04:06 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Why would it not be relevant to compare a much hyped and anticipated 5 speed to a currently available 6 speed?
How would you compare them if you can't test one of the two?
Maybe we should wait till it's out there and see.
I remember all the hype regard Shafti's no cut, no hassle 5 speed that was neither when it finally hit the market. I suspect Jaime saw that and the delays involved is due to him taking the time to get it right and not to make a quick buck, we will see.
But to be perfectly clear, I could make a long list of things others have done that Jamie has not, and near the top of that list would be "hype". And I we agree 100%, we will see.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 06:14 PM
Hyped. As in to stimulate or excite.
Yes the Passion 5 speed is going to be a great product. Jamie's reputation stands on it's own and he never rests on his laurels.
This is what I really enjoy about the internet and Moparts. Every english teacher that is out of work is feverishly banging away on some board critiquing the word usage or correcting typographical errors......who really gives a rats behind.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 10:04 PM
Quote:
Hyped. As in to stimulate or excite.
Yes the Passion 5 speed is going to be a great product. Jamie's reputation stands on it's own and he never rests on his laurels.
This is what I really enjoy about the internet and Moparts. Every english teacher that is out of work is feverishly banging away on some board critiquing the word usage or correcting typographical errors......who really gives a rats behind.
The hype, such as it is, isn't coming from Jaime, but rather those of us who know what he expects from things he puts his name on. If he's going to build something it will be right and if it takes longer than we want so be it. I think he's made it clear that it will be released when he's satisfied it's right. those who have an issue with the time involved can go buy a Kiesler and get it now, then later you can scrap it and get Jaime's product that is done right.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 10:45 PM
I went back to Jamie's Post about the new 5 speed in the New Products forum here on Moparts.
His post is dated December 01 of 2010. This is a direct quote "Well,
We are progressing well. The unit will be known as the A-855 5 Speed. We will be debuting the unit at the PRI show next week in Orlando. We are located at Booth 1112. "
Last I checked today is September 10, 2013.
Almost a 3 year lead in time from announcement to actual product hitting the streets. Granted this thread has played out on its own and we do not need to beat on this horse here as well.........
The point is Jamie announced the 5 speed December 2010 nobody forced him to do it. So technically he started the fire and the customer base fanned the flames to keep it burning.
So to further modify the question......
When the Passion 5 speed is available will there still be a reason to buy a 6 speed T56 or other variant for an old Mopar handling/street car?
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/10/13 10:52 PM
Quote:
When the Passion 5 speed is available will there still be a reason to buy a 6 speed T56 or other variant for an old Mopar handling/street car?
I am sure there will be a reason for someone. You got people who's sole opinion of the "best" is how much it cost. Or it is what everyone is running, double hump heads anyone? Corvette engine? Donks?
I can't see a need for double over drive that most/all 6 speeds have, but what do I know.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 12:27 AM
People that would spend 4-5k on a Keisler or equivalent will be all over Jamie's trans. I'm just not one of those people. T56's have there place and so does a true bolt in 5 spd. I always wanted gearing that would allow my car to run like a SS car at the strip and cruise down the interstate at 2000 rpm at 80 mph. I have that now.
Posted By: DoctorDiff
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 01:26 AM
I don't understand your point.
Passon did debut the prototype at the PRI show in 2010.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 01:49 AM
Quote:
I don't understand your point.
Passon did debut the prototype at the PRI show in 2010.
The original question is and always was what is better a new Passion 5 speed or a T56 6 speed in a real street car/track car.
Certain contributors to this thread kept on saying the Passion 5 speed is not available....yada yada yada. Yes the Passion 5 speed was at the show in 2010, but its really not readily available.
All of this is just an aside to the deal of the real question what is better Passion 5 speed or T56 6 speed in a real street car.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 02:31 AM
Quote:
Hyped. As in to stimulate or excite.
.......................
This is what I really enjoy about the internet and Moparts. Every english teacher that is out of work is feverishly banging away on some board critiquing the word usage or correcting typographical errors......who really gives a rats behind.
Maybe when Jamie showed me the 5 spd at PRI I should have asked him to be more modest in its display, as I admit, I did feel a little stimulated, as you define "hype".
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 04:06 PM
From a "competition" point of view, I'd be interested to know which tranny is the lightest... Passon 4spd od, 5spd, Kslr 5spd, or 6spd?
Too much shifting may not be the best advantage... drive the car without having to worry about shifting... road course racing can allow some time to shift, but pylon autocrossing doesn't favor time to shift up/down... too much lost time and upsetting the car's balance while manuevering through the cones... fractions of seconds add up quickly.
Posted By: RylisPro
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 05:28 PM
Autocross I typically leave in 1st or 2nd.
Road course I'm in mostly in 3rd or 4th, 5th on straightaways.
6th for the drive there and back
Stick may be slower but sure is more fun!
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 05:37 PM
Quote:
Autocross I typically leave in 1st or 2nd.
Road course I'm in mostly in 3rd or 4th, 5th on straightaways.
6th for the drive there and back
Stick may be slower but sure is more fun!
That's what I told my friends when we would talk about our cars. One has a 318 powered Demon with a 904. The other is building a 600 hp LS with an automatic in his '73 Nova. I asked them why not put a manual trans or 6-speed in their car. The one in the Demon said it was too much effort to change gears and he'd be slower (he's a little lazy imo). The one in the Nova didn't want to spend the money to make sure the transmission wouldn't explode.
When I had my 5-speed in my Stealth, I loved it. It had its troubles but it brought enjoyment to the ride. When I got my 6-speed manual in my Scion tC I don't see how I could go back to anything lower than that. There's just something about driving a stick shift that makes it fun. It doesn't add any stress. I feel I have more control of the vehicle. On a side note, I also drive in an hour of traffic one way on my commute to work with my manual transmission.
Posted By: ThermoQuad
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 10:43 PM
Is the T56 6 speed that much stronger than the Passion 5 speed?
Passon 5 sp is designed to take a lot of torque-i cant remember the # Jamie told me, but it's equal to or qreater than the snake charmers notchy 5 sp.
Is having 6 gears more important than 5?
Not unless you want more mpg or want to run say 90 mph at 2500rpm and like welding and fabrication
Is cutting the factory transmission / torsion bar cross-member a big deal? Yes, but if done correctly with care it becomes no big deal.
Any other opinions or suggestions on the Passion 5 speed vs T56 6 speed that I have not covered?
I would prefer the bolt on option over the weld in option. Jamie is producing transmissions and wresting with making sure it's 101 percent. I would like to see those of you whom are complaining -i consider you whiners - to do what he has done. I will road course test one someday and i am sure it will work like all the others I have road coursed. 4 speeds in both flavors std 833 and overdrive 833. Bulletproof and vibration/noise free with over 2000 shifts upndown and 130 mph in 4th.
As to availability - those whom are on the list get the product first. This is not wallmart so what does readily available really mean?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/11/13 11:03 PM
If the Passon can stand up to 800 ft/lbs as claimed, that would make it the toughest available. The T56 is tough as hell in the Viper OEM form though. If I was confident with the reputation of the TKO's I might of went that route but i've heard ALOT negatives about them, especially shift quality. Mine fell in my lap almost and was a brand new trans that I paid $1700 for it shipped. It actually was installed in a Drag Pack Chally from Mopar for shipping purposes. Its an expensive swap compared to gathering up parts for a 833 swap for sure, but if your can cut and weld its really a bargain.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/12/13 05:43 AM
Not much of an argument in my opinion, I would love to have either of these trans!
If I remember the numbers correctly Jamie currently rates his trans at 650 ft lbs and based on his testing to date feels he can safely up it another 100 in the future.
T56 pros: Coolness, shift quality, gear selection for any situation, probably better racing setup for more serious guys, stronger/lighter?
T56 cons: Fair amount of fab & welding required, total cost in 6K range, parts have to be sourced from many vendors and made to play together.
Worth it? yes
Passion pros: direct bolt in utilizing existing components, no fab/welding, less expensive by $1500 or so IF you have 18 spline set up, if not then need new clutch/pressure plate
Passion cons: currently limited availability, unproven in the hands of the Destructive Test Division (public) who can f up a peanut butter sandwich in short order.
I think they both appeal to large, but differing, segments of the hobby and will fill their nitches very well.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/12/13 01:37 PM
Quote:
Not much of an argument in my opinion, I would love to have either of these trans!
If I remember the numbers correctly Jamie currently rates his trans at 650 ft lbs and based on his testing to date feels he can safely up it another 100 in the future.
T56 pros: Coolness, shift quality, gear selection for any situation, probably better racing setup for more serious guys, stronger/lighter?
T56 cons: Fair amount of fab & welding required, total cost in 6K range, parts have to be sourced from many vendors and made to play together.
Worth it? yes
Passion pros: direct bolt in utilizing existing components, no fab/welding, less expensive by $1500 or so IF you have 18 spline set up, if not then need new clutch/pressure plate
Passion cons: currently limited availability, unproven in the hands of the Destructive Test Division (public) who can f up a peanut butter sandwich in short order.
I think they both appeal to large, but differing, segments of the hobby and will fill their nitches very well.
I think you are a bit out on your pricing, a new t 56 can be purchased for $ 3000 and sometimes a lot less if you get a deal. The Passon is around $ 4500 for just the transmission, after that both need a bell housing, clutch ,pressure plate, shifter ect.
Granted you may already a 4 speed 833 in your car so you may not need anything more than the transmission, but if you don't you would looking at $6000 to do a Passon 5 speed into a car that has an automatic in it.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/12/13 02:49 PM
Quote:
Is the T56 6 speed that much stronger than the Passion 5 speed?
Passon 5 sp is designed to take a lot of torque-i cant remember the # Jamie told me, but it's equal to or qreater than the snake charmers notchy 5 sp.
Is having 6 gears more important than 5?
Not unless you want more mpg or want to run say 90 mph at 2500rpm and like welding and fabrication
Is cutting the factory transmission / torsion bar cross-member a big deal? Yes, but if done correctly with care it becomes no big deal.
Any other opinions or suggestions on the Passion 5 speed vs T56 6 speed that I have not covered?
I would prefer the bolt on option over the weld in option. Jamie is producing transmissions and wresting with making sure it's 101 percent. I would like to see those of you whom are complaining -i consider you whiners - to do what he has done. I will road course test one someday and i am sure it will work like all the others I have road coursed. 4 speeds in both flavors std 833 and overdrive 833. Bulletproof and vibration/noise free with over 2000 shifts upndown and 130 mph in 4th.
As to availability - those whom are on the list get the product first. This is not wallmart so what does readily available really mean?
Now this is good info.....since I will be selling the 72 Road Runner as a stock car before I start investing big cash in it for handling mods like this.......
The handling parts, wheels, tires Viper brakes etc will be going into the 71 Challenger factory 318 car turned bracket race car in the 1970's. This car already has some modifications to it, roll bar etc.....so cutting the floor will not hurt as bad as if I had cut the floor on the 72 that is stock.
The Challenger will require all the parts to convert this as its an automatic car currently.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/12/13 10:17 PM
Quote:
Granted you may already a 4 speed 833 in your car so you may not need anything more than the transmission, but if you don't you would looking at $6000 to do a Passon 5 speed into a car that has an automatic in it.
$6000? I dunno about that. When I swapped my Diplomat over to A833 I had well under $1000 into it and I had to buy everything as there were no 87 M body sticks ever made.
I'll grant I bought used OEM parts for a lot of it. Bell (A body), flywheel (V6 Dak) was OEM used. New Sachs clutch, pressure plate and TO bearing off Ebay, new linkage rebuild kit (MP), Found a Volare in the boneyard with a stick, got the pedals, Z bar and floor hump. New Hurst Indy shifter. The A833 was out of a 70 A body, $100, later I bought three A833OD and various shifters, linkage, pedals, and such for $150 off Ebay, that is still sitting in my garage.
Now If I went SFI cert then I'd probably add another $500 to the bill. I guess you could get close to $6k going SFI and needing everything as well as the A855. But if you already have the A833, nope.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/13/13 02:34 PM
If the Passon conversion is $4500 by itself, by the time you source pedals, tunnel, carpet, underhood linkage and brackets, none of which I believe are included in the Passon conversion package, it would take much to add an extra grand to grand and a half to an automatic conversion using new parts.
Yes, if you scrounge around, buy used parts and collect parts over an extended time frame, you can do it for much less. However, there are always a lot of guys willing to collect parts for 2-3 years to save a grand. Typically we see questions on here like I want to convert my automatic in two weekends so I don't loose any cruising time, how hard is it. If this is your modus operandi, then your are going to pay premium prices.
Similarly you can do the same with a T56 conversion. By waiting and browsing, I was able to score a small block to T56 bell housing for $150. Normally these cost $500+. 72Swinger scored his new T56 for $1700, which are usually twice that. If your a budget shopper, you have to manage time as much as money.
This is where budget wise, the T56 will have it over the Passon unit. The proliferation of T56s out there means you can wait out bargains. That won't happen with the 855 anytime in the next decade, if ever. There simply won't be enough of them out there for bargains to pop up. Sure, maybe is some one dies and leaves a garage full of parts that their kids unload cheap, you might score one for a bargain, but I'd bet those to be the exception.
If you have the ability to fabricate stuff, as there will be fabrication involved with a T56 conversion, then that also puts the budget column on the T56 side. If you don't have the time, skills, or desire to cut and weld, have a pedigreed car that would loose value because of mods, then the 855 will likely be worth the money and be a great value.
Its all perspective. Much like the great Mustang debate next topic over...
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/13/13 02:49 PM
Quote:
If the Passon conversion is $4500 by itself, by the time you source pedals, tunnel, carpet, underhood linkage and brackets, none of which I believe are included in the Passon conversion package, it would take much to add an extra grand to grand and a half to an automatic conversion using new parts.
I think these items should be left out of the comparison entirely, simply because you'll need that stuff regardless of what transmission you buy if starting with an automatic. The parts that do deserve mention are those a 4 speed owner would already have like the pedals, drive shaft, bell housing, trans support cross member, etc. all of which can be reused with the Passon unit. All you need to change is the trans itself, very few (if any?) special surrounding parts. You can't say that about any other trans that I am aware of.
Posted By: DoctorDiff
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/13/13 03:37 PM
Yes, if you want to compare apples to apples, an automatic car will require pedals and extra linkage to install any manual transmission.
In addition, there are other expenses to consider like drive-shaft modification and misc machine work that always accompanies a custom installation.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/14/13 02:05 PM
Quote:
Yes, if you want to compare apples to apples, an automatic car will require pedals and extra linkage to install any manual transmission.
I dunno, the A855 is designed to be a bolt in replacement for an A833, the T56 not even close.
If you were thinking of replacing the A833 with a 5 speed then the 855 is a better choice because the only thing that might need replaced is the clutch disc and TO bearing. The T56 has a bunch of other stuff that needs replacing even if you are starting with a stick car.
Auto car, it's probably a wash.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/14/13 07:36 PM
"A bit off in my pricing"? I didn't think so. I wasn't talking about modifying an automatic car. If starting with a drivable 833 stick car that you want to upgrade to an OD I think the A855 is a very appealing option. Other than a possible clutch purchase, due to 18 vs 23 spline, it is a start it in the morning and drive it that afternoon proposition utilizing all your EXISTING parts. If you have read, or go and read, Jamie's thread that is exactly how he is promoting it.
If your converting an automatic I would go T56. Cost/effort between the two would be close, of course depending upon a whole lot of individual situation variables, so why not go for the all out performance advantage of the six speed? I have an auto Duster that I just converted to a 833 OD. For me Jamie's trans would make a whole lot more sense than redoing everything I've already spent time and money on if my current trans doesn't meet my goals.
Posted By: Rapom65
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/14/13 09:39 PM
Apologies to PHJ426. I went back and reread his original questions and noticed that he had latter stated his car had a 727. Totally missed that so my answers were really not to point.
So... IF you have the fab skills and equipment I would go T56. More gears to select from, better shift quality, shifter location in middle of trans hump gets rid of the foot well intrusion of the stock hump and probably just "feels" more correct (personal preference), more aftermarket support for upgrades/repair, much larger selection of clutches, shifters, flywheels and so forth. You are going to have to mod the tunnel sheet metal, fab an upper brace to tie the trans cross member back together and/or build a trans mount (I would do both). I believe you'll have to convert clutch actuation over to Hyd. Any questions on the T56 conversion I would ask 72Swinger as he's done it and is loving the results on the road and track.
As for the A855, fab effort is going to be much less. Cutting trans tunnel and welding in new hump. Installing clutch pedal assy. (bolt in), 4 speed carpet set. Most of the rest of the conversion requires the same but different applicable parts (bells, clutches, fly wheels, shifters, drive shaft mods et al.
Other than the fab work involved I would expect the cost comparison between the two would be very close.
Other things have to be considered, such as your rear axle ratio, which will affect the usefulness of six gears. May need to optimize that so add it to the cost if applicable. I think Jamie said the A855 has the same gear ratios as the 833 with the addition of an OD 5th gear. So if you liked those but were always looking for that next up shift then problem solved.
As for which is better for street and track: there are so few people who have driven a car with the A855 in it, other than Jamie himself, that the question is pure speculation and emotion at this point. Hopefully there are some getting seat time as we speak, er... type, so maybe some with 1st hand knowledge will be chirping in soon.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/15/13 12:17 AM
better shift quality?
I have never shifted a T56, but I have shifted plenty of rail shifters, they ain't better than a fresh A833 setup. When I got eh swap done in my 87 Diplomat I could shift with two fingers. New shifter that I took apart, polished up and greased. Metal bushings instead of plastic, shimmed the spring clips so there was minimal slop. New bushings in the clutch linkage, with a metal vice rubber bushing at the fork. I guess if you want to compare a wore out A833 setup to a new T56 install, then yeah I guess it might shift better.
4 speed carpet? I have never had a problem getting the existing carpet to cover the hump.
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/15/13 11:53 AM
I have no input in the 855 topic, but would just comment on the T56 I put in my Dakota now that I have a few hundred miles on it.
I aboslutely love it, and wish these trucks had this transmission from the factory. robust, strong, yet shifts like a light duty commuter econo car transmission.
gear ratios are perfect in my opinion. I put 4.56 gears in the axle and have tires that are just under 27" tall. first gear spins a lot on street tires driving on the street, but with some half way decent tires and track prep, it will probably spin a lot less. If I'm driving around in town, 4th gear works well below 45 mph, I can use 5th gear on rural highways up to about 55 mph, and once I'm out on the interstate, I can tool along at 73 mph while turning just 2000 rpm.
That said...I would have to think long and hard about putting a T56 into my 70 Cuda when it gets to that point. the T56 fits into my 98 Dakota without ANY sheetmetal modifications. I did a front shift relocation kit to the T56 and the shifter comes through the stock hole in the floor from the original NV3500 transmission shifter allowing me to use my stock consoles inside. All I needed to put it into the Dakota was the quicktime bell (and a custom $500 flywheel that's 130 tooth to fit the bell, while retaining the tone ring for the EFI computer) and a custom made transmission mount. I'm even using the stock transmission crossmember.
I'm not so sure I'm ready to go non-stock on the floor pan of my Cuda. even though it'll never be a high dollar collector without the build sheet or the fender tag.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/18/13 01:01 PM
Some here argue the need for a 6-speed over a 5-speed, or two overdrive gears. Well, i'll just go ahead and argue the need FOR them.
Not for everybody, but if you like to drive FAST... for long periods ov time, then you've gotta gear for that (lets just assume that you're not just steeenking rich). I currently daily drive a 96 Mustang GT (4.6L, 5-speed, 3.27 8.8"). In my 72 Charger... i HATED the 3.23's. What a useless ratio. Does NOTHING well. Not good for drag racing unless you run a Caddy 500, not good for MPG unless you never go over 50MPH. Its a better gear in my GT, as the 4.6L is smooth as glass and VERY efficient, but in the average classic car, 2600RPM at 60MPH is excessive. Further, who actually drives at 60 on the highway? most do 70 or more, me... a lot more. One trip i make infrequently averages around 95MPH. In my car, 100MPH in 5th is 3000RPM. The car seems to run well and use pretty much NO gas at 2000RPM highway. Granted, the 4.6L doesn't make enough torque to pull a 3400lb Mustang 100MPH at 2000RPM, but it sure as hell doesn't need 3000. A big block anything could easily pull 100MPH at 2K. A big block or even an old-school (non-Magnum) small block wont be happy at 3K either, so lets bring that down too. Further, at times i only limit myself to 100MPH because ov the mileage. Give me more gear (legs) and i'll get to point-B faster.
For anyone cringing at the Mad Max visuals here, one can easily substitute an open-course road race here.
Thats one point. the other... is gearing. In my Mustang (to make my point), a common mod is a 3.73 rear upgrade, or for the 7000RPM 4-valves, a 4.10, 4.30 or even (many will vehemently argue) a 4.56 gear upgrade. For a drag racer, sure the single OD will bring that 4+ gear down well into the 3's to drive to and from the track... and do some peelers on the strip. But for the guy that wants it all, the T56 can let you have 4.30 or 4.56's at the track/street drags, and still have around a 3.27 gear for the highway (thats a 4.56 gear, that runs 2000RPM @ 60MPH). Thats a LOT ov range. For those that argue the 1st gear becomes useless in a steep-1st T56 with 4.56 gears, the Mustang guys will counter that well... if it wasn't all-out faster, they wouldn't be doing it. Most cars on Moparts wont need anything over a 4.10 rear, but with 'only' a single OD speed you're still making a lot ov noise on the highway. Remember, we are living in the age ov having your cake and eating it too. Not wanting to take advantage ov that is like sticking to 40 year old cam grinds when there is soooo much better stuff available now... just because 'its good enough'.
My plan: light car, 7000-7500RPM small efficient V8, T56, 3.27's. That'll give me the 1st gear launch i'm used to in the GT more or less (enough for me), and basically, a whole 'nother gear on top ov the 5th when i'm doing 100MPH and either want to go faster (in my car the engine WILL pull the gear/speed) or just save some gas at 'cruising speed'....
Granted... my points will be for extreme needs, but i would still argue the fuel savings if you like to drive over 70MPH for periods in a car with a big or pre-Magnum (read: inefficient) engine. Sure i'll get the "oh well if you're looking for MPG buy a Honda!" retort... which... is almost always coming from people who drive their cars only on sunny weekends. Whole lotta big scary 440's sitting under dust because they're too expensive and annoying (at sustained highway RPM's) to run...
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/18/13 05:22 PM
Quote:
Some here argue the need for a 6-speed over a 5-speed, or two overdrive gears. Well, i'll just go ahead and argue the need FOR them.
Not for everybody, but if you like to drive FAST... for long periods ov time, then you've gotta gear for that (lets just assume that you're not just steeenking rich). I currently daily drive a 96 Mustang GT (4.6L, 5-speed, 3.27 8.8"). In my 72 Charger... i HATED the 3.23's. What a useless ratio. Does NOTHING well. Not good for drag racing unless you run a Caddy 500, not good for MPG unless you never go over 50MPH. Its a better gear in my GT, as the 4.6L is smooth as glass and VERY efficient, but in the average classic car, 2600RPM at 60MPH is excessive. Further, who actually drives at 60 on the highway? most do 70 or more, me... a lot more. One trip i make infrequently averages around 95MPH. In my car, 100MPH in 5th is 3000RPM. The car seems to run well and use pretty much NO gas at 2000RPM highway. Granted, the 4.6L doesn't make enough torque to pull a 3400lb Mustang 100MPH at 2000RPM, but it sure as hell doesn't need 3000. A big block anything could easily pull 100MPH at 2K. A big block or even an old-school (non-Magnum) small block wont be happy at 3K either, so lets bring that down too. Further, at times i only limit myself to 100MPH because ov the mileage. Give me more gear (legs) and i'll get to point-B faster.
For anyone cringing at the Mad Max visuals here, one can easily substitute an open-course road race here.
Thats one point. the other... is gearing. In my Mustang (to make my point), a common mod is a 3.73 rear upgrade, or for the 7000RPM 4-valves, a 4.10, 4.30 or even (many will vehemently argue) a 4.56 gear upgrade. For a drag racer, sure the single OD will bring that 4+ gear down well into the 3's to drive to and from the track... and do some peelers on the strip. But for the guy that wants it all, the T56 can let you have 4.30 or 4.56's at the track/street drags, and still have around a 3.27 gear for the highway (thats a 4.56 gear, that runs 2000RPM @ 60MPH). Thats a LOT ov range. For those that argue the 1st gear becomes useless in a steep-1st T56 with 4.56 gears, the Mustang guys will counter that well... if it wasn't all-out faster, they wouldn't be doing it. Most cars on Moparts wont need anything over a 4.10 rear, but with 'only' a single OD speed you're still making a lot ov noise on the highway. Remember, we are living in the age ov having your cake and eating it too. Not wanting to take advantage ov that is like sticking to 40 year old cam grinds when there is soooo much better stuff available now... just because 'its good enough'.
My plan: light car, 7000-7500RPM small efficient V8, T56, 3.27's. That'll give me the 1st gear launch i'm used to in the GT more or less (enough for me), and basically, a whole 'nother gear on top ov the 5th when i'm doing 100MPH and either want to go faster (in my car the engine WILL pull the gear/speed) or just save some gas at 'cruising speed'....
Granted... my points will be for extreme needs, but i would still argue the fuel savings if you like to drive over 70MPH for periods in a car with a big or pre-Magnum (read: inefficient) engine. Sure i'll get the "oh well if you're looking for MPG buy a Honda!" retort... which... is almost always coming from people who drive their cars only on sunny weekends. Whole lotta big scary 440's sitting under dust because they're too expensive and annoying (at sustained highway RPM's) to run...
You must be driving on the Coquihalla highway….last year we went on a road trip to Vancouver while staying at the lake in Kelowna. We drove my wife’s Lexus and I was driving close to 100mph a lot of the way, even at that speed we had a lot of high end cars blow past us.
At one point it was like a scene from Fast & Furious with a Nissan GTR and a worked 350 z going at it and a bunch new BMW’s mixed in. It’s a great drive and I next time I go I’m going to bring more car for the drive.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/18/13 11:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Some here argue the need for a 6-speed over a 5-speed, or two overdrive gears. Well, i'll just go ahead and argue the need FOR them.
Not for everybody, but if you like to drive FAST... for long periods ov time, then you've gotta gear for that (lets just assume that you're not just steeenking rich). I currently daily drive a 96 Mustang GT (4.6L, 5-speed, 3.27 8.8"). In my 72 Charger... i HATED the 3.23's. What a useless ratio. Does NOTHING well. Not good for drag racing unless you run a Caddy 500, not good for MPG unless you never go over 50MPH. Its a better gear in my GT, as the 4.6L is smooth as glass and VERY efficient, but in the average classic car, 2600RPM at 60MPH is excessive. Further, who actually drives at 60 on the highway? most do 70 or more, me... a lot more. One trip i make infrequently averages around 95MPH. In my car, 100MPH in 5th is 3000RPM. The car seems to run well and use pretty much NO gas at 2000RPM highway. Granted, the 4.6L doesn't make enough torque to pull a 3400lb Mustang 100MPH at 2000RPM, but it sure as hell doesn't need 3000. A big block anything could easily pull 100MPH at 2K. A big block or even an old-school (non-Magnum) small block wont be happy at 3K either, so lets bring that down too. Further, at times i only limit myself to 100MPH because ov the mileage. Give me more gear (legs) and i'll get to point-B faster.
For anyone cringing at the Mad Max visuals here, one can easily substitute an open-course road race here.
Thats one point. the other... is gearing. In my Mustang (to make my point), a common mod is a 3.73 rear upgrade, or for the 7000RPM 4-valves, a 4.10, 4.30 or even (many will vehemently argue) a 4.56 gear upgrade. For a drag racer, sure the single OD will bring that 4+ gear down well into the 3's to drive to and from the track... and do some peelers on the strip. But for the guy that wants it all, the T56 can let you have 4.30 or 4.56's at the track/street drags, and still have around a 3.27 gear for the highway (thats a 4.56 gear, that runs 2000RPM @ 60MPH). Thats a LOT ov range. For those that argue the 1st gear becomes useless in a steep-1st T56 with 4.56 gears, the Mustang guys will counter that well... if it wasn't all-out faster, they wouldn't be doing it. Most cars on Moparts wont need anything over a 4.10 rear, but with 'only' a single OD speed you're still making a lot ov noise on the highway. Remember, we are living in the age ov having your cake and eating it too. Not wanting to take advantage ov that is like sticking to 40 year old cam grinds when there is soooo much better stuff available now... just because 'its good enough'.
My plan: light car, 7000-7500RPM small efficient V8, T56, 3.27's. That'll give me the 1st gear launch i'm used to in the GT more or less (enough for me), and basically, a whole 'nother gear on top ov the 5th when i'm doing 100MPH and either want to go faster (in my car the engine WILL pull the gear/speed) or just save some gas at 'cruising speed'....
Granted... my points will be for extreme needs, but i would still argue the fuel savings if you like to drive over 70MPH for periods in a car with a big or pre-Magnum (read: inefficient) engine. Sure i'll get the "oh well if you're looking for MPG buy a Honda!" retort... which... is almost always coming from people who drive their cars only on sunny weekends. Whole lotta big scary 440's sitting under dust because they're too expensive and annoying (at sustained highway RPM's) to run...
You must be driving on the Coquihalla highway….last year we went on a road trip to Vancouver while staying at the lake in Kelowna. We drove my wife’s Lexus and I was driving close to 100mph a lot of the way, even at that speed we had a lot of high end cars blow past us.
At one point it was like a scene from Fast & Furious with a Nissan GTR and a worked 350 z going at it and a bunch new BMW’s mixed in. It’s a great drive and I next time I go I’m going to bring more car for the drive.
Well... ov course... my scenarios were all theoretical... (heh heh...)
Yeah the Coq is a speedway for sure. There are spots where that speed is hard (though hardly impossible) to hold, but others where you'd need a veritable supercar to keep you awake. There's one stretch on the Kelowna connector where i swear you'd run out ov gear in a new Viper/Shelby/GT...
I'm just in a lowly 215HP GT. Those stretches can take a looooonnng time to reel in. I cant remember how many times i've said that... 'I need more car for this.'
Then there's that one stretch just South ov Calgary (22X?) where i swear even Big Red would get bored...
Funny though, i've never been passed at 100mph except for this one time on the Coq. This older, top-heavy Nissan (or whatever) minivan literally loaded with some extended family passed me going around 105 (i was doing 95). Bloody madness. Yeah, i let that one go...
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/19/13 02:03 AM
Engine plays a role.
ears ago I was racing a Tbird Turbo Coupe down I25 in my 86 Daytona. At 125+ the engine could not pull hard enough in 5th to keep the Tbird behind me. Drop into 4th and I'd pull away from him.
But in all honesty there isn't a legal option for me to need double overdrive. Also, consider I drove my 64 300 from Memphis to San Diego with 4.10 gears doing 70 for most of it, so rpm does not bother me (A745 three speed in it).
Posted By: 68cuda440
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/19/13 04:37 AM
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/19/13 03:49 PM
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Double overdrive required:
http://smmercury.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/85-mph-texas-130.jpg
I live in San Angelo and still have no double OD setups. I was in Dallas last week, Amarillo yesterday, no double OD. Put almost 9k miles on the odometer in the last 2 months.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/19/13 07:32 PM
The best part is no one is forcing either trans down anyones throat. I think its great that we have options at least. I also will say that 10 sec. 1/4's, 200mph and 20 mpg are ALL within reach with a t56 with ONE rearend gear.
Posted By: EV2DEMON
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/19/13 07:43 PM
The argument of single or double OD for performance is sort of silly. 6th gear is so tall, it's for mileage and cruising, nothing else. If I'm driving my cars in anger, 6th is useless. Both of my cars top end in 5th gear, 6th is just too tall to overcome drag.
With more HP, 6th may become ueseful for sustained speed runs (though even in my 420 RWHP ZR-1 it's not), but then you start to run into the issue of ridiculous driveshaft speeds. If I'm building a car for high MPH, it'll be done with a big HP, a modest OD (not much taller than .75:1), and the correct rear gear to get it done.
Anyone who's ever driven a Viper with their 3.08 gears knows how useless 6th gear is when the car isn't geared for it. Both of my 6 speed cars have 3.42 gears, and even with 400+ HP and relatively light weight, they could use a little more gear.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/20/13 01:07 PM
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Engine plays a role.
ears ago I was racing a Tbird Turbo Coupe down I25 in my 86 Daytona. At 125+ the engine could not pull hard enough in 5th to keep the Tbird behind me. Drop into 4th and I'd pull away from him.
Yes, absolutely engine plays a role. I was making my points with 4.6L EFI mods, which are plenty happy way up there in the RPM's, and sip gas with almost any throttle position. On a forum where most guys are playing with old school Mopar engines, often big ones, i shouldn't even have to make the argument for a 'more is more' OD.
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But in all honesty there isn't a legal option for me to need double overdrive. Also, consider I drove my 64 300 from Memphis to San Diego with 4.10 gears doing 70 for most of it, so rpm does not bother me (A745 three speed in it).
I had a street racing buddy with a rather high-strung 289 Maverick who commuted one city over (20 miles) for years in that car. 4.30's, small rear tires. He'd very often drive the entire trip at 5000-5500RPM. I wouldn't even have believed it had i not been with him several times. To him burning the ridiculous amounts ov gas he did doing this was still cheaper than an OD (if he factored in his time - he was a mechanic, and the fact that he always spent 3X his budget to finish any simple job). He'd go through $500 a week in 87 octane gas. His engine loved the end ov the tach and he had nothing better to spend his money on.
We all love RPM, but honestly i think having to do that (or what you did) too often would keep most guys here from driving their cars. Maybe if gas was still as cheap as it was in the 80's...
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/20/13 01:41 PM
Well, it was 92 when I made my trip. Super unleaded cost me $1.00/gallon most places, but the funny thing is my mileage was right around 15 for the whole trip. About the same as my wife's 05 Ram. What I liked best about this setup was that unless I was at a complete stop I could just leave it in third and go. Never could have done that with the Daytona.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 09/20/13 05:07 PM
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Maybe if gas was still as cheap as it was in the 80's...
However nobody in the 80's thought gas was cheap.
Posted By: Magnum
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 10/07/13 04:19 AM
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better shift quality?
I have never shifted a T56, but I have shifted plenty of rail shifters, they ain't better than a fresh A833 setup. When I got eh swap done in my 87 Diplomat I could shift with two fingers.
It's not the shift quaility when driving slow. Even the Fuller transmission in my Class 6 International Harvester truck can be shifted "easily" for a slow rpm matched shift.
We are talking about kicking the clutch and tugging on the shifter at full throttle. An 833 is similar to a truck transmission and a T56 is more like a dirt bike when it comes to finding gears while racing.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 10/07/13 12:21 PM
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Quote:
better shift quality?
I have never shifted a T56, but I have shifted plenty of rail shifters, they ain't better than a fresh A833 setup. When I got eh swap done in my 87 Diplomat I could shift with two fingers.
It's not the shift quaility when driving slow. Even the Fuller transmission in my Class 6 International Harvester truck can be shifted "easily" for a slow rpm matched shift.
We are talking about kicking the clutch and tugging on the shifter at full throttle. An 833 is similar to a truck transmission and a T56 is more like a dirt bike when it comes to finding gears while racing.
I've always thought the 833 shifted great. I think we just get used to (read: spoiled) by the utterly effortless and tiny throw ov a good aftermarket shifter on a modern trans. Going back to the old yeah... it does feel like a truck. Mr. Sox ov course might feel otherwise.
MY gripe with the 833 is the lack ov shifters to choose from. When i wanted to upgrade for an easier, faster, better shifter for my 4-speed i found a pile ov options that all seemed to do the same thing... replicate the factory shifter. Little details, a little better put together maybe... but nothing that really up-graded the design. As good as the factory shifter in a Mustang can be, an upgrade makes one hell ov a difference. Because no one i know bothers to think about these things and i had (at the time) no one to ask, i ended up buying a Super Shifter 3... because it was the best one i could buy that would use my pistol grip and not involve hacking. I've since heard some bad stuff about that one too. Still haven't installed it.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 10/07/13 12:49 PM
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We are talking about kicking the clutch and tugging on the shifter at full throttle. An 833 is similar to a truck transmission and a T56 is more like a dirt bike when it comes to finding gears while racing.
BTDT, not a problem with my freshly rebuilt A833 and new Hurst shifter. Never missed a shift, never had an issue with it being other than right shifting. Now if it were all wore out and had a sloppy shifter, then yeah it's a PITA. But that's true of anything.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 10/07/13 01:21 PM
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTDT, not a problem with my freshly rebuilt A833 and new Hurst shifter. Never missed a shift, never had an issue with it being other than right shifting. Now if it were all wore out and had a sloppy shifter, then yeah it's a PITA. But that's true of anything.
100%
Posted By: Magnum
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 05:46 AM
This has nothing to do with Ronnie Sox's ability to shift a truck like 833 or your ability to not miss a shift in an 833.
I'm a huge Mopar fan and will defend an 833 for strength anyday but the fact is a T56 is EASIER to shift fast than an 833.
Go drive one before you get offended over my opinion on the 833.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 06:10 AM
Not offended at all (if you were addressing me?) I've driven a T56, nice piece, as far as ease of operation, I think that's a bit subjective but I am happy enough with an 833 design that it's a non issue with me. My BIGGEST concern is a "no cutting" installation, which is NO WAY possible with a T56. Also, my Passon 5 speed arrived yesterday so now they truly "exist".
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 04:11 PM
Scott what is the eta for putting some power through the new Passon 5 speed. What car and the specs on the basic build?
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 04:26 PM
450hp/500tq 426 stock appearing stroker small block, 3.91 8.75, Polyglass tires, stock 1971 340 Duster restoration. ETA, Summer 2014.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 05:00 PM
That will be a cool combo. Is this based on the yellow 340 car you just picked up?
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 06:58 PM
No, my other one which its evil twin
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 07:10 PM
Underside
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/15/13 07:13 PM
Bullet
Posted By: 1972CudaV21
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/16/13 12:22 AM
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This has nothing to do with Ronnie Sox's ability to shift a truck like 833 or your ability to not miss a shift in an 833.
I'm a huge Mopar fan and will defend an 833 for strength anyday but the fact is a T56 is EASIER to shift fast than an 833.
Go drive one before you get offended over my opinion on the 833.
There is hardly any throw in my Cobra T-56. But, the design is so much different from the old 833. It is like night and day.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/16/13 12:24 AM
Wonder how that Getrag M82 6 speed is for shifting....
Posted By: RylisPro
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/16/13 12:56 AM
How much are those Passon 5 speeds? I have no idea? I know the wait for one is really long!
The reason I ask is that if I were ever to break my T56 Magnum I could easily buy another brand new one for about $3k and shortly be on the road again.
Posted By: RealWing
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/16/13 01:19 AM
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How much are those Passon 5 speeds? I have no idea? I know the wait for one is really long!
The reason I ask is that if I were ever to break my T56 Magnum I could easily buy another brand new one for about $3k and shortly be on the road again.
$4,495 is Jamie's current price
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/16/13 01:41 AM
I want in car video of someone doing their best Ronnie Sox impression.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/16/13 02:06 AM
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/16/13 02:33 PM
Have seen those, I mean with the Passon 5 spd.
Posted By: dannysbee
Re: Advantages of T56 over Passion 5 speed? - 11/26/13 01:22 AM
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Wonder how that Getrag M82 6 speed is for shifting....
The m82 works good and shifts smoothly at high rpm with the throttle on the floor. Factory shifter not so much. Mount is real soft and works ok at low rpm but when pushing things it becomes a problem causing the operator two over shoot gates and causing missed shifts. I installed the Barton shifter and twin post mount. Day and night difference.