Moparts

Front Spoilers...

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 11:44 AM

So I have been eyeballing some front spoilers used on the smaller Mopars.

The factory (?) style spoilers, I dunno. I can't help but think these are just way too small and narrow to be of much good.

Then there's fellow who made a batch of his own, AAR-type front spoilers. These look very sturdy and durable, but they 'stick' out way too much and too angled to the front imo for to be used on the street.
I would think that with dailydriver, if one happens to hit a curb this will really mess up the entire front valance.

All in all, personally, I don't really like the 'look' of these spoilers.

Also, with the 'open' sides of both spoiler-styles, I would think air would just get around them on the sides and maybe even cause even more turbulence.

What does the rest think about this?


Now yesterday, I stumbled on a spoiler-topic on FABO, and a guy showed off his spoiler reproductions from a Volare/Aspen, but mounted on an 70+ A-body this time.
I must say I was quite surprised about how well this looked. The spoiler is supposedly a 3-piece unit, and also goes around to the sides up to the front wheelwells.

This spoiler looks low and enclosed enough to be of use, and not high enough so it gets crashed into things on a daily basis.


Attached picture 7710995-IMG_2698.JPG
Posted By: feets

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 03:41 PM

Looks good but I'd like to see it with the car on the ground. It would give a better look at ground clearance.
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 07:17 PM

i like it! i think its about time we get some good functional spoilers
Posted By: pro451bee

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 08:15 PM

What would be cool is easily removed and installed nose cone similar to a wind tunnel tested superbird ,that you could just fasten on at events and remove to go home.Carbon fiber and just straps to the bumper.The chevy and ford guys would freak out.
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 11:28 PM

Do you have a link to that thread? I was looking over there and couldn't find it
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 11:33 PM

I have a pic of an under construction FG one piece bumper/spoiler/brake duct for a 72 A body I 'll post tonight and have posted before. I was toying with adding wing tips as you mentioned, but adding them without a tunnel for testing, its just "Kentucky windage" (US slang for a big guess)
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 11:40 PM

The FABO-thread mainly contained talk about someone who 'was going to' make/remake a certain spoiler. But the guy (BHA43) who posted the pics and a link to the Asper/Volare-forum, pointed everyone to this topic later on;

http://www.aspenandvolare.com/showthread.php?3283-flairs-amp-such
(Recreation and pics of the front-spoiler start appearing from page 10.)

Unfortunatly no better pics are shown of this late model A-body spoiler on a early '70s Dart.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 11:43 PM

Any front spoiler with enough ground clearance to live on the street is primarily cosmetic.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/19/13 11:56 PM

I tend to agree there if you look at it from a racing point of view, but if you look at all the newer cars out there, pretty much all of the non-suv cars have some sort of airdam incorporated into their bumpers. Especially the performance cars.
The factories either find performance in this, and/or economy.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 01:03 AM

I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 02:21 AM

This pic was taken years ago, the concept was the grille was to be blocked off, and only rad air was to enter center opening, and the spoiler was intended to help make that happen plus any other benefits it furnished. For any on track use I intended to extend spoiler with hard rubber lower edge. It was for street and track use.

Attached picture 7711994-P9110125-Swinger-Frt-Spoile.jpg
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 02:22 AM

I saw this at the shopping mall a few years back, I bet it is effective on the street, but.....

Attached picture 7711997-DSCN1070-Goofy-air-dam.jpg
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 02:26 AM

but ....

Not for long, lol.

I like the idea of your "convertible" spoiler. Might be the best of both worlds.

I have a similar idea for my DD, plus blocking off my grille openings, TBD by coolant temps.
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 02:28 AM

Quote:

I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.

You are mistaken in that, the air flow is so carefully controlled that some of them will relentlessly overheat if the front spoiler is missing or broken. Even if the cooling fan is on continuously, there is not enough airflow going through the radiator. Some of the more flamboyant packages are aimed at the boy racer crowd, to be sure.
Posted By: topside

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 04:48 AM

The Penske/Roy Woods TransAm Javelins had right & left bolt-on spoiler extensions that attached to the factory spoiler. These extended close to the ground, made of plexiglass. Needed them to be bolt-on because the cars couldn't be loaded/unloaded with them on. Very effective on track.
Cooling ducts for the brakes ran from the valance opening between spoiler/bumper.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 06:01 AM

Here my little lip spoiler from Randy. It is mostly looks,but I like at least something under the front.

Attached picture 7712295-003.JPG
Posted By: Jjs72D

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 07:35 AM

Quote:

I saw this at the shopping mall a few years back, I bet it is effective on the street, but.....



That aluminum setup is funny!!!
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 01:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I saw this at the shopping mall a few years back, I bet it is effective on the street, but.....



That aluminum setup is funny!!!



looks like it's hiding 2 turbos....
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 02:05 PM

Here's a thread that has some good pics about modifying a front spoiler in the context of better cooling, lot's of pic and some good related data towards the end.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 06:12 PM

I like function, I like vintage look, I also am concerned with breakage of the front spoiler. On the street, breakage would be my fault... but on the road course tracks I want function to help for whatever it would be worth -- i'm a "competitor" before I'm a show car guy. Now, I do like the factory split T/A Challenger spoiler on my car because I can slide my floor jack under the front to lift the car (slightly lifting the front bumper just ~1/2 inch to clear the current T/A split spoliers)... and then my jack-handle easily clears between the split front spoiler!!! I feel this is important to me for working on my car, whenever needed. With a full-width solid front spoiler (such as the vintage TRANS AM Cuda spoilers (and maybe eventual Challenger) now available your jack-handle won't work. SO.. I've been thinking of how to make a 3-piece full-width front spoiler whereby the center-section would, perhaps, be flippable (hinged?) with a slight overlap (1-2"?) to each side section.. maybe the center section could be ~12" wide so to allow the floor jack to be pushed under and have the handle able to be used.... function, apperance, and user-friendly.
Posted By: 71redcuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 07:28 PM

Home made in aluminium.

Attached picture 7712789-nyalysen010.JPG
Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 08:11 PM

Does anyone know who's car these is? I'd like to see some pictures of the spoiler...
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 09:08 PM

It's an Aussie Valiant...the front spoiler (from the little bit you can see) looks almost like a copy of a Holden Torana one like my car has (factory)

Attached picture 7712906-2013-03-1614.53.44.jpg
Posted By: kab69440

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/20/13 10:14 PM

Quote:

This pic was taken years ago, the concept was the grille was to be blocked off, and only rad air was to enter center opening, and the spoiler was intended to help make that happen plus any other benefits it furnished. For any on track use I intended to extend spoiler with hard rubber lower edge. It was for street and track use.




That's a good looking piece. If it was available, I'd be falling all over myself to order one for my Charger!
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/21/13 02:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.

You are mistaken in that, the air flow is so carefully controlled that some of them will relentlessly overheat if the front spoiler is missing or broken. Even if the cooling fan is on continuously, there is not enough airflow going through the radiator. Some of the more flamboyant packages are aimed at the boy racer crowd, to be sure.



Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/21/13 03:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would argue that he "performance" cars you are thinking of have the airdam more for cosmetic reasons, to enhance the image, than practical. While the front of the cars today are cleaner, aerodynamically speaking, than our beloved musclecars, they are still subject to consumer whims and expectations.

You are mistaken in that, the air flow is so carefully controlled that some of them will relentlessly overheat if the front spoiler is missing or broken. Even if the cooling fan is on continuously, there is not enough airflow going through the radiator. Some of the more flamboyant packages are aimed at the boy racer crowd, to be sure.



Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.

Highway speed are where they are the worst, all the air is deflected away from the opening, if you look the "grill" area is really tiny in comparison to the gaping maws that older cars have and placed much lower, really out of the airstream.
You would like an example....well, I have one. It involves aerodynamics, performance(for it's time) and a comedy of errors.
The shop I was working at the time was owned by a Father/Son and the Father had a 3rd gen F-body Trans Am that developed an overheating problem-on the freeway. This car was his pride and joy and used to make high speed runs to Vegas, he had a second home there. He is a mechanic and a damn good one as is his Son, so this would not do. It was a matter of Pride as well as need that it be fixed.
After replacing the radiator, fan switch, the cooling fan (including wiring the fan to run all the time)the problem persisted. Next the heads and finally the engine-yes the engine was rebuilt- basically to stock specs..... still the same.
After all that, it was noticed that the small lip spoiler was broken. It was a modest thing only a couple of inches long, running under the body just behind the lower valance opening, but replacing it fixed the overheat.
Again, as I pointed out in my first post, there are cosmetic aspects to these things, but engineers are driven by the need to control airflow and the Mfgrs spend millions to maximize MPG and any package that gets put on a production car isn't going to cause a significant increase in drag. They can offer them through a "performance division", or just let the aftermarket deal with it.
Most of the double wings, body kits and such have nothing to do with the OE and are so poorly built and engineered that they are laughable.
As gaudy as the Wing cars are, they have very good Cd numbers and are very stable @ high speed.
Take vortex generators, those little triangular looking things that are popping up on the roofs of newer cars, with careful placement and sizing they can reduce drag and increase stability a surprising amount. If you just buy stick on ones and put them anywhere they may do nothing or increase drag. So they are only there for looks if someone decided they would look cool, not if the Aero Engineering team specified where they should be.
Ultimately the only way to KNOW if something is truly effective on my/your/anybodies car is to test it. Unless you have access to a supercomputer or a wind tunnel it's more time consuming ie coast-down tests, taping string all over your car and watching/videoing where and how it moves around, using a Magnehelic gauge to measure pressure points, Etc.
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/22/13 11:24 AM

Front spoilers work at high speeds based on my years of driving and testing ideas on the road course. No data collection devices or yarn, just a well calibrated seat-of-the-pants-o-meter and observing the operating temps, underhood temps after a run. Spoilers also affect high speed stability. Speeds over 100 mph require a spoiler.
I had a street car [E body] that would tap 130 mph every lap and adding the spoiler made a big difference in cooling and stability.

Some spoiler are better than others, some can be set up to break away. The camero spoiler on a charger is easily installed with the large black plastic push ons for easy break away when you hit that curb...
Posted By: Duner

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/22/13 04:42 PM

I put a Camaro spoiler on my rig to help get the air to stop piling up under the front of it and causing it to become a handful at speed when the front end lifted. It seems to have helped a ton in that department - but it is a pain to work around.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/23/13 12:48 AM

Quote:


Then how do they cool at lower road speeds without the airflow that is available at highway speeds?

Got an example of this in production?

I'll grant that the emphasis on clean aerodynamics has reduced grille openings to the minimum possible, but we were talking about aerodynamic improvements not cooling concerns. I still maintain that while an airdam might very well be important for cooling today's cars (not on my DD, it has a pan blocking the chin area) it is still mostly cosmetic from an under car airflow aspect. My DD has an airdam, why? I dunno for looks I guess it is nowhere near close enough to the pavement to be effective in blocking under car airflow in any useful amount and it cannot direct air thru the radiator as it is blocked off above the air dam.

Highway speed are where they are the worst, all the air is deflected away from the opening, if you look the "grill" area is really tiny in comparison to the gaping maws that older cars have and placed much lower, really out of the airstream.
You would like an example....well, I have one. It involves aerodynamics, performance(for it's time) and a comedy of errors.
The shop I was working at the time was owned by a Father/Son and the Father had a 3rd gen F-body Trans Am that developed an overheating problem-on the freeway. This car was his pride and joy and used to make high speed runs to Vegas, he had a second home there. He is a mechanic and a damn good one as is his Son, so this would not do. It was a matter of Pride as well as need that it be fixed.
After replacing the radiator, fan switch, the cooling fan (including wiring the fan to run all the time)the problem persisted. Next the heads and finally the engine-yes the engine was rebuilt- basically to stock specs..... still the same.
After all that, it was noticed that the small lip spoiler was broken. It was a modest thing only a couple of inches long, running under the body just behind the lower valance opening, but replacing it fixed the overheat.
Again, as I pointed out in my first post, there are cosmetic aspects to these things, but engineers are driven by the need to control airflow and the Mfgrs spend millions to maximize MPG and any package that gets put on a production car isn't going to cause a significant increase in drag. They can offer them through a "performance division", or just let the aftermarket deal with it.
Most of the double wings, body kits and such have nothing to do with the OE and are so poorly built and engineered that they are laughable.
As gaudy as the Wing cars are, they have very good Cd numbers and are very stable @ high speed.
Take vortex generators, those little triangular looking things that are popping up on the roofs of newer cars, with careful placement and sizing they can reduce drag and increase stability a surprising amount. If you just buy stick on ones and put them anywhere they may do nothing or increase drag. So they are only there for looks if someone decided they would look cool, not if the Aero Engineering team specified where they should be.
Ultimately the only way to KNOW if something is truly effective on my/your/anybodies car is to test it. Unless you have access to a supercomputer or a wind tunnel it's more time consuming ie coast-down tests, taping string all over your car and watching/videoing where and how it moves around, using a Magnehelic gauge to measure pressure points, Etc.



Interestingly enough, I saw one of those F bodies on the highway today, reminding me of this thread. Those Firebirds sure did have a tiny grille and I suspect you are 100% correct that it needed a dam to force air into the radiator for cooling at speed.

But that's really a different issue from using a dam to clean up the aerodynamics of the car. The dirtiest part of a car, especially today, is the undercarriage. Which is what an airdam that is extremely close to the ground can help. I see there are a couple of somewhat anecdotal examples posted of add on aero helping at higher (than highway legal mostly) speeds, which was the point of my original comment. My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.
Posted By: topside

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/23/13 03:13 AM

As far as GM F-body cooling: I ran a Chevy body shop for awhile in the '90s, and whenever the lower spoiler (the 2nd one, black, behind the front cover) was broken off from parking curbs, the Camaros would overheat.
Unrelated to that, but germaine to this discussion: back at the dawn of time I had a '64 Corvair, which had quite a bit of front-end lift on the freeway. I added a 1st-gen Z28 front spoiler and that problem disappeared with no other changes.
I've added front spoilers to a few cars since, and picked up MPG or improved cooling or both, depending on the spoiler placement. The MPG was from guiding the air to the sides rather than having it bouncing off the undercarriage.
I've also vented the hood on 3 vehicles of mine through the years, which also picked up MPG & improved airflow through the engine compartment, reducing underhood temps.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/24/13 12:48 PM

Quote:

My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.



He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/24/13 12:50 PM

Quote:

I like function, I like vintage look, I also am concerned with breakage of the front spoiler. On the street, breakage would be my fault... but on the road course tracks I want function to help for whatever it would be worth -- i'm a "competitor" before I'm a show car guy. Now, I do like the factory split T/A Challenger spoiler on my car because I can slide my floor jack under the front to lift the car (slightly lifting the front bumper just ~1/2 inch to clear the current T/A split spoliers)... and then my jack-handle easily clears between the split front spoiler!!! I feel this is important to me for working on my car, whenever needed. With a full-width solid front spoiler (such as the vintage TRANS AM Cuda spoilers (and maybe eventual Challenger) now available your jack-handle won't work. SO.. I've been thinking of how to make a 3-piece full-width front spoiler whereby the center-section would, perhaps, be flippable (hinged?) with a slight overlap (1-2"?) to each side section.. maybe the center section could be ~12" wide so to allow the floor jack to be pushed under and have the handle able to be used.... function, apperance, and user-friendly.



I had in mind building a T/A style/sized front spoiler for my Challenger, but one full piece across (basically connecting the two halves), maybe a tad larger, and out ov aluminum. I didn't even think about having to jack the car up. Back to the drawing board...
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/24/13 11:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.



He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...



Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/25/13 12:42 AM

i decided to use a camaro front spoiler with the chin spoilers - not too shabby - was only $20 brand new!





Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/26/13 11:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My old man had a Buick that would get real floaty in the front end at 100+, adding a GS front spoiler helped at those speeds. But at highway speeds the thing was not needed.



He should have just jacked up the rear about 8". My 70 Skylark saw 110-120mph regularly and it was stable till about there (at which time the $5 tires got a bit too sketchy to continue). Maybe thats the key to high speed stability...??? Enough rake to see the complete rearend from a truck driving behind it...??? Hahahaha

Oh... and another handydandy Buick aero tip: you need a better than stock rad mounting when going over 110mph in a jacked-up Buick... heh heh heh...



Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.



Uh... yyyyeeeaahh.... that was my intention totally. I was so far ahead ov my time... hahahahahahahahahahahahaha


As for these Camaro spoilers... are these the same cheap looking plastic things you see in Classic Industries catalogs? I've handled them and they never struck me as strong enough to withstand any ACTUAL force... more just an aesthetic item. Even the Mopar factory stuff seems flimsy to me. I wouldn't want something giving my valuable downforce blowing off on me at well over 100mph...
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/26/13 01:43 PM

Mine is fiberglass and has withstood 130 mph without fail. I would test it further but I either run out of road or testicle before hand. The car doesn't get light at all just vibration gets a little scary.
Posted By: Duner

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/26/13 02:28 PM

The wind pressure at 125 mph is 45# per sq ft if I remember correctly. You have to produce braces that go behind that spoiler to hold the force or it would be no better than a piece of cardboard taped to the nose. You also have to mount it to something that's strong enough to take that force pushing against it with that much leverage.

They do work.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/26/13 08:48 PM

Quote:

Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.




Isn't this more to counter possible cargoweight in the back?
I just did a Google image-search with "pickup truck" and save for a 2-3 images, I hardly see any rake in the shown pickups.
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/26/13 09:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.




Isn't this more to counter possible cargoweight in the back?
I just did a Google image-search with "pickup truck" and save for a 2-3 images, I hardly see any rake in the shown pickups.



Even with a pallet of wheel outers in the back of my truck, you can still see the front down rake to it. (all stock 2011 Chevy)

Attached picture 7719853-2013-03-1811.43.16.jpg
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/26/13 10:08 PM

Well, my 05 Ram, my 08 Silverado, the various newer work trucks I've had all have it in person.

that's why the make leveling kits so old schooler's can lift the front end and make it sit level.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/26/13 11:32 PM

jcc - nice work. Mind telling me what the bottom spoiler is adapted from? I have been going to use a 80's Ranger truck lower fascia as a buck to make a fiberglass mold from for my 66 Coronet, but yours looks like it's made from fiberglass?

Sorry about the big pic, don't know why it blows up like that using "properties" from the Moparts pic info...

Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/27/13 01:36 AM

Quote:

jcc - nice work. Mind telling me what the bottom spoiler is adapted from? I have been going to use a 80's Ranger truck lower fascia as a buck to make a fiberglass mold from for my 66 Coronet, but yours looks like it's made from fiberglass?

Sorry about the big pic, don't know why it blows up like that using "properties" from the Moparts pic info...





I think I hear laughter in the background, but I don't remember, it has been a few years, and your are absolutely correct in that it is "adapted", if you look close, you can see 2 small eyebrow reliefs I had to fill in on the spoiler, maybe that will jog someones memory on what car I got from. Sorry guys. Please post if anybody knows, since I am certain I am going mangle it in my first big off track excursion, under braking
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/27/13 03:49 PM

Quote:


Ever notice how today's vehicles, especially trucks have a nose down rake to them? Same reasoning, cheap way to clean up the undercar airflow some.



I wouldn't necessarily consider a truck an accurate comparison considering they are designed to be carry a half ton load, at a minimum, and have rake for a differing reason than a car might use rake.

In any case, some of us old schoolers discovered the positive attributes of a 2-3* nose down rake back in about 1968 when mopar began teaching it on their Super Car Clinics and then later when it was published in the chassis manual.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 04:16 AM

Mine... 5" wide strips of 18ga. steel bolted to aluminum angle attached to the flat flange under the bumper and fenders. Really stuck this thing down at 140+.

Attached picture 7723139-Airdam.JPG
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 04:19 AM

...at speed.

Attached picture 7723142-SilverStateMay2013211.JPG
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 04:27 AM

one more.

Attached picture 7723147-NORC2013atMargaritas.jpg
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 10:59 AM

Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 01:07 PM

Quote:

Mine... 5" wide strips of 18ga. steel bolted to aluminum angle attached to the flat flange under the bumper and fenders. Really stuck this thing down at 140+.



Wonder if you noticed any "drag" increase, since you are running a "limited" class, I guess the only way to really tell in the field would be a coast down test. Every areo trick has a downside, just wondering how much in your case, and would agree whatever it was, its worth it.
Posted By: feets

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 04:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Mine... 5" wide strips of 18ga. steel bolted to aluminum angle attached to the flat flange under the bumper and fenders. Really stuck this thing down at 140+.



Wonder if you noticed any "drag" increase, since you are running a "limited" class, I guess the only way to really tell in the field would be a coast down test. Every areo trick has a downside, just wondering how much in your case, and would agree whatever it was, its worth it.




jcc, take your critical crap elsewhere.

The user stated that he liked the result at 140+ mph. If that makes him happy it doesn't matter what the coast down is.
He needed to limit air flow under the car at speed. He got it.

Now, kindly go away.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 04:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Mine... 5" wide strips of 18ga. steel bolted to aluminum angle attached to the flat flange under the bumper and fenders. Really stuck this thing down at 140+.



Wonder if you noticed any "drag" increase, since you are running a "limited" class, I guess the only way to really tell in the field would be a coast down test. Every areo trick has a downside, just wondering how much in your case, and would agree whatever it was, its worth it.




jcc, take your critical crap elsewhere.

The user stated that he liked the result at 140+ mph. If that makes him happy it doesn't matter what the coast down is.
He needed to limit air flow under the car at speed. He got it.

Now, kindly go away.



I'm pretty sure the OP can speak for himself.

Getting a little obsessed are we, or sorry, is that question hitting a little close to home?
Posted By: feets

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 08:20 PM

Quote:

I'm pretty sure the OP can speak for himself.

Getting a little obsessed are we, or sorry, is that question hitting a little close to home?




Not obsessed. Just tired of reading your same old crap questioning if grass is really green.
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 10:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm pretty sure the OP can speak for himself.

Getting a little obsessed are we, or sorry, is that question hitting a little close to home?




Not obsessed. Just tired of reading your same old crap questioning if grass is really green.



The use the ignore button and stop tormenting the rest of us with your bouts of PMS.
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/29/13 10:16 PM

Quote:

Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?



Not yet. It felt rather balanced at the 135 - 140 range I was running in. It is still on the short list if it actls like it needs it.
Posted By: Lucky Dart

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/30/13 05:46 AM

Your Chargers spoiler looked effective at NORC. I did something simular to the yellow 2010 Srt Challenger that I have been running in nevada. I could feel it suck the nose down above 90 mph. The spoiler was only 1 1/2 inches off the road. Not streetable. Cut it and got to 3 1/2 clearance when I ran the Silver State.

Last year I made the conversion to the 2012 front spoiler. It is a more effective spolier "at speed" than the earlier ones. Mopar stated 12% more down force?

I can report the car felt fine at 160 mph. RPM was about 4200 at that speed. Plenty left in the car. The challenger "techs" for 165 so I didnt go any faster than 160, didnt want to get D.Q.ed. We managed to take first place in the 130 class. .23 sec off a perfect run.

There is a lot to be said for a heavier stable car in a race like the SSCC. The new Challengers are fast but not awfully quick.

Great event. Lots of home made aero ideas being actually used at high speeds.

Be in Ely Nevada in sepember. You will enjoy it!

Clay
Posted By: 67Charger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/30/13 01:29 PM

Clay,

Here's a ground level shot of your car and spoiler as compared to what everyone else was running.

Attached picture 7724584-NORC2013ClaysChallenger70.jpg
Posted By: Aero426

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/30/13 04:58 PM

Quote:

Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?



Running fast in a straight line, the car may do OK. The rear lift problem did not show until they got to Daytona with the tighter corners. When they did their pre-season testing at the huge Goodyear oval in San Angelo TX, the car handled well without the spoiler. The turns were such a large radius that the problem had not yet become apparent.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/30/13 09:49 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?



Running fast in a straight line, the car may do OK. The rear lift problem did not show until they got to Daytona with the tighter corners. When they did their pre-season testing at the huge Goodyear oval in San Angelo TX, the car handled well without the spoiler. The turns were such a large radius that the problem had not yet become apparent.

Please keep up the input, your experience is greatly appreciated.
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/31/13 02:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Did you also mount the tiny trunklip-spoiler that they also used on the Nascar-models (to counter backend lift I recall)?



Running fast in a straight line, the car may do OK. The rear lift problem did not show until they got to Daytona with the tighter corners. When they did their pre-season testing at the huge Goodyear oval in San Angelo TX, the car handled well without the spoiler. The turns were such a large radius that the problem had not yet become apparent.



Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer




Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/31/13 10:42 AM

I was looking for some windtunnel-testing videoclips of front and rearspoilers and such, when I stumbled on a number of interesting articles on Autospeed.com about spoiler and improving 'under car' airflow;

Part 1
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2455/article.html

Part 2
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2456/article.html


Earlier articles:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=109937

And...

Undertrays, Spoilers & Bonnet Vents, Part 1
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2159/article.html

Undertrays, Spoilers & Bonnet Vents, Part 2
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2160/article.html?popularArticle
Posted By: OzHemi

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/31/13 03:30 PM

Quote:

Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer



If you were looking for more width, a '69 Camaro spoiler is wider than a '67/8 one, incase you didn't know..
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/31/13 03:31 PM

YES!, I remember reading those and lost the links. A lot of good stuff on that site. Thanks for posting that.
Posted By: Duner

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/31/13 06:39 PM

Thanks for posting those links. That's interesting reading for sure.

Has anybody seen anything as far as links or write-ups for spoiling the air at the back of the cab on a pickup truck? I can see that the back window is trying to be sucked backwards out of the truck at speed.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/31/13 09:25 PM

I found this PDF-link to study of "DRAG REDUCTION OF PICKUP TRUCK USING ADD-ON DEVICES"...

http://csus-dspace.calstate.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10211.9/169/combined-finished.pdf?sequence=1


And here's a guy mounting and testing all kinds of spoilers and airdams on his Chevy Truck...
(I dig the MacGyver-factor of his front airdam-solution though.)

Front Airdam from Garden edging.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic...-effective.html

Tailgate spoiler
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic...experiment.html

Cab roof spoiler
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/roof-spoiler-pick-up-truck-cab-phase-1-a-19525.html
Posted By: Duner

Re: Front Spoilers... - 05/31/13 11:07 PM

Thanks for the links!

On my little beasty - at speed the back lexan window is sucked backwards toward the tailgate. I was thinking of trying to solve that if I could. The front and rear spoilers have really settled the truck handling down at speed, but still unsure whether it's help or hurt the ET and MPH. A block-off plate in the grill helps by about 2 mph and about 1.5 tenths.

I do know that on my tonneau cover - the last bow on the cover will be forced down on every pass over 100 mph or so. I would estimate it takes roughly 25-30 lbs worth of force to do that. Of course the wind has lots of surface area to work at generating that much down force.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/01/13 02:22 AM

Always wondered what effect these might have...... http://3rdstrikeperformance.com/images/CabFairings.jpg
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/01/13 02:35 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer



If you were looking for more width, a '69 Camaro spoiler is wider than a '67/8 one, incase you didn't know..



really? I did not know this - thanks for the info
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/02/13 12:49 AM

Quote:

I was looking for some windtunnel-testing videoclips of front and rearspoilers and such, when I stumbled on a number of interesting articles on Autospeed.com about spoiler and improving 'under car' airflow;

Part 1
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2455/article.html

Part 2
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2456/article.html


Earlier articles:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=109937

And...

Undertrays, Spoilers & Bonnet Vents, Part 1
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2159/article.html

Undertrays, Spoilers & Bonnet Vents, Part 2
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2160/article.html?popularArticle



Those are useful articles, thanks for posting, my biggest takeaway, without any testing, little can be learned, as aero "common sense" is still largely black magic, IMO.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/02/13 01:33 AM

In the 4th link BigBlock posted it refers to a air pressure differential gauge magnehelic, that seems useful for us backyard aero wannabes. They seem readily available and in the under $125 range.

Anybody have any real world experience with these gauges?

Like, wouldn't a -2.5 to +2.5" of water be a better choice?

Is That enough range?
How sensitive are readings to how pressure tube opening is oriented?
Where on a car is the reference pressure obtained? Inside the car would seem rather variable, by speed, windows up or down, defroster on off, etc
Is an analog better then the slightly more costly digital gauge?

This is the page that caught me eye.
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/Pressure/DifferentialPressure/Gages/SeriesDM-1000/Ordering
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/02/13 03:31 AM

The gauge measures pressure differential much like a vacuum gauge, much more sensitive than a vacuum gauge though. I plan on doing some testing with my Barracuda- yes I own one of those gauges, my understanding is to have the gauge in the cabin with windows/vents closed to isolate the gauge from turbulence. It wouldn't be difficult to have the reference in the engine compartment and the sense on the hood or in front of the grill, whatever you are looking to measure the difference of. The gauges pop up on E-bay, that's where I got mine. Oh ya, 0->1.0" hope that's enough range for what I want to do. If not I'll sell it and pick up another.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/03/13 10:44 AM

I 'thought' was able to cheaply fab up a front spoiler for my Dart. Just for kicks, but I found I got my butt kicked by 'geometry' here a bit in the progress.

I went to our local HomeDepot and grabbed a nice large cement bucket. These things here are made of very sturdy, but unbreakable plastic. Perfect for possible groundscraping once in a while I thought.

Once in the garage I started cutting the reinforced top edge and 4-5" down off it. Also made pie-cuts in the lip to straighten out the curvature.
But then I hit a geometric snag. Because of the taper of the bucket, the now 'straightened out' strip, was still curved along it's entire length when flattened out... Duh...
Also the curvature was the wrongway around for it to even remotely fit.
So I cut another strip, but this time from the bottom of the bucket and did a mockup on the car. Secured it with the center valance-bolt in the middle and a number of tie-raps towards the edges.
Not happy about how quickly the strip curves upwards behind the valance, I'm now looking for a 'real' spoiler.

Usually, my first attempt at making something from scratch is pretty much shoddy at best, so with that knowledge I always have better hopes for the second attempt...!




Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/03/13 07:11 PM

Quote:

I 'thought' was able to cheaply fab up a front spoiler for my Dart. Just for kicks, but I found I got my butt kicked by 'geometry' here a bit in the progress.

I went to our local HomeDepot and grabbed a nice large cement bucket. These things here are made of very sturdy, but unbreakable plastic. Perfect for possible groundscraping once in a while I thought.

Once in the garage I started cutting the reinforced top edge and 4-5" down off it. Also made pie-cuts in the lip to straighten out the curvature.
But then I hit a geometric snag. Because of the taper of the bucket, the now 'straightened out' strip, was still curved along it's entire length when flattened out... Duh...
Also the curvature was the wrongway around for it to even remotely fit.
So I cut another strip, but this time from the bottom of the bucket and did a mockup on the car. Secured it with the center valance-bolt in the middle and a number of tie-raps towards the edges.
Not happy about how quickly the strip curves upwards behind the valance, I'm now looking for a 'real' spoiler.

Usually, my first attempt at making something from scratch is pretty much shoddy at best, so with that knowledge I always have better hopes for the second attempt...!





I think I'm more blown away at the fact they have a home depot in the netherlands!
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/03/13 10:05 PM

No we don't, that's why I said 'our local' HD.
Had I said 'Gamma' or 'Karwei', as these shops are named here, no-one would have known what I was talking about.

I think I've located a suitable spoiler. Will probably be able to pick it up this saturday.
It's a brand new spoiler, for an '81 Mercedes. My guess is it will be very close in size to the Dart's width.


Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/05/13 12:13 AM

Quote:


Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer




If you want to get tricky and spend a bit more money, why not get two, and fab a longer one from both?
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/05/13 01:09 AM

Quote:

No we don't, that's why I said 'our local' HD.
Had I said 'Gamma' or 'Karwei', as these shops are named here, no-one would have known what I was talking about.

I think I've located a suitable spoiler. Will probably be able to pick it up this saturday.
It's a brand new spoiler, for an '81 Mercedes. My guess is it will be very close in size to the Dart's width.




What is the model of Benz, or part number?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/05/13 09:10 AM

The numbers listed along with the ad were;

RS 171
Mercedes S CL SS 81
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/05/13 01:07 PM

Found a couple of spoiler ads from the same (English) company.

Attached picture 7731591-RichardGrantSpoilersAdv1984web.jpg
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/06/13 07:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Interesting, which is why i went with this - I wanted more function than looks - its a 67 camaro rear spoiler and would have been a perfect fit if it was about 1 1/2" - 2" longer




If you want to get tricky and spend a bit more money, why not get two, and fab a longer one from both?



just found out from the camaro guys that the 69 is about 1 1/2" longer and same bolt pattern, so I'm gonna pick one up, I'd rather buy something off the shelf than to modify one, that way if something happened to it, I can just buy another one!
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/07/13 12:48 AM

That looks promising. Post the width at the widest point on the sides if could please...


Quote:

No we don't, that's why I said 'our local' HD.
Had I said 'Gamma' or 'Karwei', as these shops are named here, no-one would have known what I was talking about.

I think I've located a suitable spoiler. Will probably be able to pick it up this saturday.
It's a brand new spoiler, for an '81 Mercedes. My guess is it will be very close in size to the Dart's width.




Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/09/13 10:23 PM

Picked up the spoiler today and did a quick mockup.

Haven't quite figured out yet what would be the best way to mount it, but the size is very close to the car. Maybe 2-3" too wide at the most outer top edges. But since the material is flexible and can be bend inwards a bit, I don't think this will pose any problems.

Hardest part will probably be how to neatly incorporate the spoiler with the valance and lower fender on the sides.
Perhaps cutting off the upright 'flaps' to the height of the center of the spoiler will give more possibilities.


Here are some pics...










Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/10/13 01:45 AM

I like it, nice adaption, would it maybe be easier to modify a cheap run of the mill fiberglass lower valance to fit the plastic spoiler, rather then the other way around, and maybe have a better aero solution as a result?
Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/10/13 04:52 AM

Looks good, you may consider sectioning it a little to get the fit. Are those still available new? I couldn't find any. That's turnabout for all the issues you have to deal with over there. As a blatant threadjack, Do you have any particular details about the Propane conversion on the Dart? I'm considering going that direction down the road for my Barracuda. You can PM if you don't want to post it here. Thanks, Steve
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/10/13 03:06 PM

I vote please post any propane comments.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/10/13 08:22 PM

The manual that came with the spoiler was printed in '78, the spoiler itself is a few years newer for an '81 Mercedes, so I doubth they still make these.

I don't want to 'spoil' the topic too much with offtopic stuff but the propane-system in my car isn't anything special.

Here's an older topic where I listed some of the parts that are used in these systems;
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rt=all&vc=1

One of the drawbacks of a propane system could be the heavy tank-weight which being put in the back of the car usually.
My car has 2 of these tanks for some added range but it sure changes the front/rear weightdistribution of the car.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/11/13 10:01 PM

Let's add some weight to the topic by including and Imperial with a front spoiler to the mix...


http://www.imperialclub.org/Yr/1972/Wills/page1.htm

Attached picture 7739424-FuselajPorsche.jpg
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/11/13 11:09 PM

LOOKS LIKE DAVID AND GOLIATH... MAMMOTH!!! AWESOME IMPERIAL!!!.. with rear disc brakes, too?

Posted By: Lefty

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/12/13 12:19 AM

Just add little wheels to the cans...

That really looks like it would fit my 66 Coronet due to the "square" corners. I'm on a mission to find one. Thanks for sharing.

Quote:

Picked up the spoiler today and did a quick mockup.

Haven't quite figured out yet what would be the best way to mount it, but the size is very close to the car. Maybe 2-3" too wide at the most outer top edges. But since the material is flexible and can be bend inwards a bit, I don't think this will pose any problems.

Hardest part will probably be how to neatly incorporate the spoiler with the valance and lower fender on the sides.
Perhaps cutting off the upright 'flaps' to the height of the center of the spoiler will give more possibilities.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/12/13 02:30 AM

Weight? That car would likely cause a tornado pushing that much air.
Posted By: feets

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/12/13 03:30 AM

Quote:

Let's add some weight to the topic by including and Imperial with a front spoiler to the mix...


http://www.imperialclub.org/Yr/1972/Wills/page1.htm



Kenyon hasn't updated that page in years.

I like what he did with the Imperial but I don't like what he did to the Imperial. The interior modifications ruined it for me.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/12/13 11:07 PM

Quote:

Are those still available new? I couldn't find any.
...
Thanks, Steve




I did stumble on this though;

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/merc...ting-apron.html


Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/13/13 08:27 PM

Widebody Mercedes parts, cool!

Quote:


I did stumble on this though;

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/merc...ting-apron.html




Posted By: feets

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/13/13 08:47 PM

Looks like a kit to build your own 190E-16V.

Posted By: Skeptic

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/13/13 08:51 PM

I I'll pickup one of the Dakota air dams or fab something up. No time soon, I've still got carbs to finish rebuilding, fuel lines to run, put the finishing touches on the trans, finish in the stiffening kit, fab new brake lines from the master/ prop valve, prep and the engine compartment.... before I get the engine from IMM and deal with all the little touches from the engine swap, new exhaust system.....etc. Maybe next year some time
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/24/13 11:11 PM

Quote:

I vote please post any propane comments.



Propane isn't just for BBQs anymore.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/24/13 11:16 PM

Quote:

Looks like a kit to build your own 190E-16V.





A little something for the "more mature" crowd -

http://www.wingswest.com/catalog/Mercede...ont-Bumper.html

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/25/13 08:42 AM

Pricing looks mature aswell

I haven't done much with my own spoiler yet other than trim some of the top-sides and do some mocking up.
But I have to do some more trimming before the spoiler can actually be positioned in a better location under the car.

I noticed on certain speedbumps here in town, my current 'McGyver' spoiler was hitting the road occassionaly.
Looking closer under the car revealed the reason for that.. it seemed the pass.side LCA bumpstop has finally given up and bailed the car which gives slightly more suspension travel now...

I'm looking to get 1" Torsionbars from JustSuspension to stiffen up the front end a bit more and will look into making a 'substitute' bumpstop by fabbing two adjacent pieces of heathose of something, mounted to the LCA.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 12:40 AM

Quote:

I'm looking to get 1" Torsionbars from JustSuspension to stiffen up the front end a bit more and will look into making a 'substitute' bumpstop by fabbing two adjacent pieces of heathose of something, mounted to the LCA.



1" bars will sharpen the turn in and maybe corner speed. On the other hand they may be too stiff for an A Body and cause understeer. They will for sure help the high speed stuff.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 12:44 AM

I can't quite read that front plate, but I suspect it says "get out of my way"


Quote:

Let's add some weight to the topic by including and Imperial with a front spoiler to the mix...


http://www.imperialclub.org/Yr/1972/Wills/page1.htm

Posted By: V��peli

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 08:17 AM

300 with front spoiler
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 10:21 AM

Looks like someone has recycled the frontplates of his fridge and washer and made a spoiler out of it...


Quote:

1" bars will sharpen the turn in and maybe corner speed. On the other hand they may be too stiff for an A Body and cause understeer. They will for sure help the high speed stuff.




Been thinking about that indeed. My car also has a Hellwig front swaybar.
It's got 0.866" (22mm) TBars now.

One of the reasons I recently decided I want a stiffer springrate is because of the car's ride-height, the LCA's are located about 3/4" away from the framerails.
Now that one of the LCA bumpstops has bailed, I have noticed the LCA hits the frame now of then and the temp spoiler currently under the car tends to hit the road a bit more often on speedsbumps. The other bumpstop will fail soon.
The car is mainly used for hardcore daily driving where tackling roundabouts and speedbumps are it's main 'challenges'...

Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 03:49 PM

BBMopar -- What is your car/body? I assume you have a BB engine? BB cars need more stiffness to prevent dive, as well as lift and lean... you will ultimately use the sway bars to "tune" the ride, and choice of wheel/tire sizes and final "street" air pressure. You've mentioned interest in getting 1" TBs, but you will find the difference to be barely noticable... consider something a little stiffer (for hard street driving as you've suggested).. don't be afraid of TBs of 1.06, 1.10, 1.12... you wil NOT regret it and ultimately be pleased with the improvement for handling.. but it is a "package".. step up the stiffness of the rear springs/leafs as well, and get some good quality shocks.

Oh.. about the spoilers... using stiffer TBs will, again, prevent that dive that you're concerned about... consider 1.06, 1.1, 1.12.. especially if you have a BB engine.

(I have competition 1.24 TBs.. driving on the street is OK with 60-series tires.. hwy driving is fantastic... mount my 16x10 race rime/tires for competition autox and road course usage.. again.. fantastic!)



Attached picture 7756880-JolietAutobahnOct72012-Mitch'sTA,Sandberg'AAR,Andrew'sChall.jpg
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 04:16 PM

I believe Mitch is spot on in his suggestions. I usually in the past years suggest a member go from stock or whatever to a min 1" bar. The reason being is 10? years ago I was considered an outcast by most members who were afraid of a "harsh" ride going from .88" to .92" bars, little I could say could sway them ,pun intended, later I figured out as Mitch mentions, 1" really is at most now a starter TB. Although I disagree somewhat, in that a change from .88 to 1" I believe makes a big improvement, it still leaves a lot on the table and a bigger jump in most cases should be made. But getting people to make that step is often difficult. Mitch does a much better job of laying out his case.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 05:33 PM

Mitch, the car in question is a smallblock A-Body Dart. '73 with '71 front sheetmetal. Borgeson powersteering and powerbrakes with 11.75" rotors.
With 'hardcore' I ment that tongue in cheek. 'Boring' daily driving is more realistic I think.

The car urrently has a 318 with a bulky A518 OD transmission behind it.
The 318 will be replaced with a 5.7 Hemi in the future. The 518 will stay.
In the rear are 2 steel propane/lpg tanks. The rear springpacks already have 7 leafs on each side and the shock are Monroe sensatracks (with helpersprings). I'm not afraid to add an extra leaf or maybe 2 in the rear and switch to non-coilover shocks.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 07:22 PM

OK... s/b a-body... good start being lighter overall weight. The 1" TBs would be better noticable, but I'd still suggest a little stiffer.. maybe 1.06.. 1.108.. 1.10. sounds like a long-term project with lots of fun rewards!
Posted By: Secret Chimp

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/27/13 09:55 PM

Camaro spoilers seem like a good bet for later-60s B-bodies like mine. Are these what people are using?

http://www.rickscamaros.com/camaro-spoiler-front-replacement-1969.html
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 06/29/13 07:52 AM

Quote:

Camaro spoilers seem like a good bet for later-60s B-bodies like mine. Are these what people are using?

http://www.rickscamaros.com/camaro-spoiler-front-replacement-1969.html



thats what i'm using...
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/09/16 09:58 PM

Topic-revival:

I finally mounted the front spoiler on my daily driven '73 Dart;

The sides of the spoiler were cut and modelled to fit the contours of the valance and front fender better.
Currently it's mounted with 6 bolts. Used 2 existing holes in the lower valance. Might want to add 2 more in the valance.

For the time being I'm OK with the looks.







Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/10/16 01:40 AM

Originally Posted By BigBlockMopar
Topic-revival:

For the time being I'm OK with the looks.


I think it looks nice up
The problem to be most effective they often don't look nice.
I bet there is worthwhile DF, to be gained if you want by simply pop riveting(?) on a plastic/rubber 2'? vertical piece to the lower spoiler lip, just soft enough to handle a high parking curb, but still stiff enough for high speed jaunts.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/10/16 09:48 PM

The current spoiler's bottom has a nice horizontal flat where some kind of extra soft lower lip could be mounted.

Still need to add some rubber fillers to seal the area between the grille and radiator better, as the valance is still open below.
The added spoiler could now be 'drawing' some incoming air away from the front of the radiator now, which might cause it to run hotter at higher speeds.
Posted By: CJD AUTOMOTIVE

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/11/16 12:34 AM

I'll throw in my $02. I see some forward angled spoilers in the thread, behind the rear bumper. This is probably worse than no spoiler. The air pressure collects where the spoiler meets the bumper and actually pushes the bumper up, creating front lift (upside down splitter). The front valance needs to be vertical or angled slightly back with a flat splitter lip perpendicular to the road surface or raked slightly forward. The air hitting the valance will push down on the splitter lip instead of up on the bumper. The pic above shows the valence portion angled slightly back and a lip at the bottom to create downforce, but the huge hole in the middle pretty much negates any effect. The air is entering the engine compartment, pushing up on the hood, creating lift, or exiting under the car, again creating lift and horrible turbulence.

These old muscle cars have horrible frontal area, but fantastically huge, flat hoods. Combined with the windshield rake, this is an opportunity for BIG downforce. Think of the the hood as a flat trunk and the windshield as the spoiler. Lots of surface area. There are huge gains to be made simply managing the airflow coming into the the engine compartment and under the car. That is where you will see the biggest dividends from any frontal aero work.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/12/16 12:57 AM

I think your comment needs some more discussion before we move on.
What stands out to me:
1. I agree that the positive intent of the spoiler can often be negated by other features, sometimes not always first apparent.
2. In the OP's case, any air the pictured spoiler redirects, has to restrict an certain amount of under car air flow, that is a plus.
3. Some of the redirected air, but not all of this redirected air will find a path into engine compartment.
4. There are two main reasons for that, the pressure in front will be higher, and the pressure behind will now be lower, because of the under car airflow has been restricted by this spoiler.
5. It is not difficult to restrict this now higher pressure area entering engine compartment in the front, by adding simple well designed blockage, but still retaining adequate airflow for cooling.
6. The high pressure air that now has been restricted thru the radiator, has three other pathways available, back under the car, least likely, around the sides, and over the hood.
7. In the last example above, and IMO, often the most likely path, the high pressure in front will exert pressure on the underside ( and topside) of any non vertical surfaces, like the bumper ( which in the OP's car really is not a large horizontal area, as bumpers go)
8. However, this high pressure area will also exert an almost equal downforce in the same bumper from the top, showing no real change in DF from this bumper issue.
9. The real gain in DF will be from any additional flow over the hood as noted, and any reduction also found in under hood pressure.

Other then that we agree. grin

This is my solution in a similar car pic #73, note in this pic the upper grille is completely block with lexan, the brake ducks have not been enlarged, and the spoiler has separate end vanes, and with short rubber extension for streetability as I noted earlier.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbt...tml#Post1553895

EDir #2 I made to clarify my response, Craig's issue with underbumper air build negating DF certainly has merit, and is as he mentions, difficult to overcome with our older bumper set-ups
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/12/16 02:47 AM

has anyone experimented with vortex generators on our cars like they use on evos
to funnel the air towards the rear, doesn't look pretty but has always been a thought
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/12/16 03:59 AM

Ive thought about how to implement a diffuser to the rear of my car. But nothing passes the taste test. Its stable as all get out up to 150, havent stayed in it past that.
Posted By: dangina

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/12/16 04:25 AM

I would love to make my own diffuser, wish I had better fiberglass skills, I may do some out of aluminum first to see if i like it, its next on my hit list(when i finish building my new house first smile
Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/12/16 04:36 AM

Originally Posted By dangina
has anyone experimented with vortex generators on our cars like they use on evos
to funnel the air towards the rear, doesn't look pretty but has always been a thought


Having been involved in a project to put these on wind turbine blades I will say this, without a wind tunnel to test and optimize them you are wasting your time.
Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/12/16 05:48 AM

Originally Posted By dangina
I would love to make my own diffuser, wish I had better fiberglass skills, I may do some out of aluminum first to see if i like it, its next on my hit list(when i finish building my new house first smile


I have some carbon fiber experience; however, I really don't have the time or material to do so right now.
Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: Front Spoilers... - 10/12/16 01:48 PM

Originally Posted By dangina
I would love to make my own diffuser, wish I had better fiberglass skills, I may do some out of aluminum first to see if i like it, its next on my hit list(when i finish building my new house first smile


Wet layup carbon and cutting some carbon fiber "plate" to bond to it wouldn't be all that challenging. It isn't the lightest form of carbon, but it'd get the job done.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Front Spoilers... - 04/17/18 12:25 AM

Major UPDATE!!!!

...not smile


Added a small lip on the front spoiler to extend it a tiny bit further down.

Problem is, I thought the lip I ordered was a bit more sturdy, but it's just a foam-type rubber lip, so it will probably simply fold over and won't do much on higher speeds.
But for the looks I don't think it hurts much smile
Whenever I find myself a better piece of ABS plastic or rubber, I will replace it with the current lip;

Posted By: jcc

Re: Front Spoilers... - 04/17/18 04:03 PM

A street driven spoiler low enough to be real effective, is going to suffer a lot of abuse from road debris, etc. Your solution has a good chance of surviving, and will out perform any CF, windtunnel tested, engineer designed high dollar broken/shattered spoiler. biggrin up
© 2024 Moparts Forums