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looking for some suspension recommendations

Posted By: Joshs68

looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/08/13 04:02 AM

I am looking to do a few upgrades to the suspension of my car. The car is a fully restored 68 charger, 470 stroker, 4 spd 4:10 gears with a 325/50/15 rear tire and stock size front tire. I have disc brakes in front and power steering.
I am not trying to make this an autocross car by any means, just upgrade the ride. All the steering linkage, ball joints, shocks etc. are new. A few problems I see are stock small block 40 year old torsion bars and sway bar coupled with new super stock springs in the rear.
My thinking was new torsion bars, a new sway bar, Hellwig? Also new shocks all around, QA1 or Bilsteins maybe.
Any recommendations for the torsion bars, shocks and sway bar?
Will the super stock springs hurt me? They are in the upper hole allowing the car to sit as low as it can with them.

Thanks!
Posted By: BigSugar

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/08/13 05:20 AM

You've got the right ideas so far, start with your bushings and ball joints make sure they are in order, then move into a set of Bilseins or the QA1 s if you like the upgrade your swaybars, Just keep in mind what your plans are for the Charger, do lots of reasearch and stick with your plan, no need to go all out for a nice cruiser, most times a set of good shocks and a little maintenance will make you a happy cruiser.

As for your front torsion bars lots of options from PST or Firm Feel ,Mancini ,Hotchkis , A 1" diameter bar will give you a nice ride withe the bilsteins, your superstocker rear leafs may be a bit much for a cruiser but upgrading your front torsions and shocks will definatly change the ride quality. Leaf Options again from firm feel ,pst , mancini,hotchkis, that rear end ratio is nice on the track but as a cruiser id opt for a gear vendor overdrive or take it down to a 3.55 ratio just to settle the engine down a bit.


Good luck
Ron
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/08/13 06:04 AM

You just looking for a original type ride with crisper handling?

Maybe just R/T 440/Hemi T-bars, front sway bar, and front end aligned for 2-3 degrees positive caster.

See if you like that. Then it's an easy bolt on for Bilstein RCD shocks.

The stiffer the front T-bars, less weigh transfer lauching the car at the drag strip. Same with the handling shocks.
Posted By: jcc

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/08/13 12:51 PM

Not sure what a stock size front tire is
, but with 325 rear it will somewhat difficult to take full advantage of the suggested upgrades until tires are optimized.

Did the op mention frame connectors?
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/08/13 02:09 PM

One thing I would suggest, do not mix and match parts from various vendors. In a case like our kit, all of our parts from springs, sway bars and shocks are tuned to work together. We have worked very hard to get the balance, and another manufacturers parts would most likely upset that balance.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/08/13 08:42 PM

As many have stated, its an overall package that will give you the best results. I'm partial to the suggestions of torsion bars, as the small ones (which even includes the factory hemi-six-pack-t/a bars) are still weak. Don't be afraid to step up to a 1.12... as I've said before, having a big-block calls for something stiffer so to prevent diving upon hard breaking as well as cornering. A tb such as about 1.06 isn't bad at all, but you will barely notice any difference. You will not regret a 1.10 or 1.12... and you'll be very pleased with doing it once and forget it (and this is all considering your basic intentions). The choice of sway bars can be used to "tune" the handling as per your driving style. Shocks.. you get what you pay for, so spend well. Your SS leafs could/should be de-arched for improved handling. Also, consider a smaller diamter steering wheel (do you have p/steering?). And... consider better lateral-support front bucket seats... so many on the market these days... try to sit in some that will grab/fit your body frame well and comfortable... they come in different widths, etc... and prices low-med-high, very high!

Posted By: Mattax

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/08/13 11:01 PM

Quote:

I am not trying to make this an autocross car by any means, just upgrade the ride.



Fair enough. All the following comments will be with this in mind.

Quote:

A few problems I see are stock small block 40 year old torsion bars and sway bar coupled with new super stock springs in the rear.



Torsion Bars, Part 1:
Age alone is not an issue for any spring. It is the number of cycles its been subject too and/or if it has exceeded the design load. The nice thing about t-bars is you can get the hieght back by cranking in the adjusters a little. That said, normally t-bars are something to consider, so heres a few things to keep in mind.
A body bars are shorter than B/E bars. As a result an .92" diameter B/E will have less spring rate and roll resistance than the same diameter for an A.
Spring force goes up very quickly when stepping up from the stock diameters.

Quote:

with a 325/50/15 rear tire and stock size front tire.



Tires:
This is one of the most important limiting factors. Front to rear Weight, roll centers, pavement type are all up there, but the buck stops here. Stock was what? An F70D15 Goodyear crossply? My guess is that's not quite what you meant But maybe a 225 70 R15 BFG Radial TA ? On dry pavement, a front tire more closely matched to the rears with wider contact patch would be the best starting point. The decision on tires should come before the decision t-bars.

Torsion Bars Part 2:
With the front tires you currently have, I would go to the largest factory sizes, probably around .92" diameter, but not into the 1.0" bars. The stiffer the front bars, the more the front of the car will understeer. Front heavy, big rear tires, the car is already well on the understeering side of neutral - at least on dry pavement.

If you go to a more matched set of tires, and have some serious stick and bite in the front, then sure a 990 on up bar could be helpful.

Sway Bar:
Agreement here. If you want to reduce the roll a bit, then polyurethane the bushings and links and consider one of the aftermarket bars. In fact you might even consider a soft rear bar - did the factory offer anything for these cars? That would be worthy of consideration by increasing the roll stiffness but not increasing the front push. A step by step approach would be poly the stock front bar. Then add factory rear bar. If the back feels loose in any way on the highway wet, go to bigger front bar.

Shocks:
Can be a help if they really are good. If you plan to drag race, maybe look at Speedway or local shop than can hook you up with shocks that can be adjusted to something like a 90/10 and then back to 50/50 for street use. I've seen 'em but never dug into fit and availability for one of our cars.


Quote:

Will the super stock springs hurt me? They are in the upper hole allowing the car to sit as low as it can with them.



I don't think they'll hurt. Beckman runs them on the rallycuda (of course it carries 30 gallons of fuel) and E-berg ran dearched ones on the brick. They are not crazy stiff like some circle track springs - IIRC all the ones sold by MP are 160 #/in. Stock OEM was often 110 with a few applications as high as 130#/in.

Only suggestion I have is that if you drive with the pinion snubber preloaded, that's great for dragstrip launches, but if you can get away without the preload on the street, it will be bit better for handling.

edit
PS. I agree with Steve's suggestion on front alignment. Set the ride hight at the lower end of Chrysler's factory recommendations. Then camber to the most negative the factory recommendation, and then 2 to 3 degrees positve caster if you can. Finish with just a little toe in so it doesn't follow every rut on the highway (which is what happens if it goes a bit toe out).
Posted By: jcc

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/09/13 01:34 AM

Nice reply mattax ,TC, mitch and others, hope the OP is following all this, getting some good advice from the regulars.
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/09/13 01:59 AM

Thanks for all the info. Ok here goes. I would love to buy the TVS kit from Hotchkiss, but not in my budget and actually far above my goals! The car does have subframe connectors. I have stock replacement front shocks and shocks mopar sells w the SS springs in the rear. The car drives ok but feels like there is extra roll in the front. I really am just looking for original or slightly better handling. I may do the shocks, sway bar torsion bar deal. I will likely call Hotchkiss and see how I do with those pieces.
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/09/13 02:05 AM

Quote:

You just looking for a original type ride with crisper handling?

Maybe just R/T 440/Hemi T-bars, front sway bar, and front end aligned for 2-3 degrees positive caster.

See if you like that. Then it's an easy bolt on for Bilstein RCD shocks.

The stiffer the front T-bars, less weigh transfer lauching the car at the drag strip. Same with the handling shocks.




Essentially yes this is all I am after.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/09/13 02:55 AM

Quote:

Thanks for all the info. Ok here goes. I would love to buy the TVS kit from Hotchkiss, but not in my budget and actually far above my goals! The car does have subframe connectors. I have stock replacement front shocks and shocks mopar sells w the SS springs in the rear. The car drives ok but feels like there is extra roll in the front. I really am just looking for original or slightly better handling. I may do the shocks, sway bar torsion bar deal. I will likely call Hotchkiss and see how I do with those pieces.




If you already have the subframe connectors, I would tell you to get our front and rear swaybars with a set of our tuned shocks.
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/25/13 09:41 PM

OK I kept it pretty simple as all I am really looking to do is obtain an original or slighty better ride and handling. I ordered a set of MP .96 torion bars to replace the .88 bars that are original to the car. I also ordered a new 1- 1/8" sway bar to replace my factory 7/8" model.

I have not bought shocks yet, I really do not know what to get. I just want a decent ride and something in the rear that will work with the SS springs. I'm wondering if a set of something that is adjustable would not be my best option?
Posted By: jcc

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/25/13 10:19 PM

Let me blunt, the .96 bars are a waste of time, I buy from you any new set of 1" bars if you don't like them, hows that for putting my money where my mouth is?
Posted By: brads70

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 12:22 AM

I'd go one further and say 1" are a waste of time/money. I'd bet you wouldn't notice a much of a difference from the .960 bars? I had them (1")on my car (451") for one season and stepped up to 1.120" Much better IMO.
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 12:44 AM

Ok. What do you not like about the .96 bar that you liked about the larger bar.
Posted By: brads70

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 01:04 AM

Quote:

Ok. What do you not like about the .96 bar that you liked about the larger bar.




IMO ( I'm no expert) but Mopars have always been "sprung" way to light. I was a little chicken to try a bigger torsion bar due to the cost but Mopar-Mitch convinced me to try a bigger bar and I'm not disappointed in the least. I didn't want a race car ride, something that I needed a kidney belt to ride in 1.120" is not rough at all! Regular street cornering is night and day! Our family Chevy suburban could out handle my Challenger on regular streets before the swap Between the torsion bars and the sway bars it took most of the "push" in the handling.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 05:57 AM

Josh -- about the TBs (.96 and similar small other TBs) -- I applaud the back-up that others here have spoken about their own experience with weak similar bars. I can't believe anyone would even sell you such bars for improved handling -- or else they simply don't have experience, or their standards are pretty low, or they just want to make the sale.. and see you coming back for a repeated sale asking for larger TBs. Its an overall package, but the TBs are a major contributor to improving the handling potential of the car. I've spoken this so many times, from my past experience (concentrating on competiton autocross but STILL STREET DRIVEN any day). MOPARS from the past were all sprung very lightly, even the HEMI-sixpack cars (yes even AAR/T/A), and sadly advertised as "heavy-duty". TBs of 1.06 and progressively up will start to give you a noticeable ride difference.. and still will NOT be harsh at 1.12! Yes, you'll need good quality shocks, a good size front sway bar (1.125~1.25.. get a hollow bar for lightened front weight), a rear sway bar (any size ~.75 to .875... at 1" your talking competition), beefed up rear leafs (keep them near flat for improved handling), competition-type upper control arms for increased caster (and a little negative camber), poly bushings, better struts, good tires/rim package, eventually an improved driver's seat for lateral control. you could weld the k-frame and add subframe connectors. But... you need to get serious with the TBs.. and 0.96 are NOT intended for improved handling. DON'T BE AFRAID OF A TB SUCH AS A SIMPLE UPGRADE TO ~1.06, 1.10 OR BETTER YET THE 1.12 (I REALLY WANT TO SAY 1.18.. FOR THE STREET, OR 1.22 IF YOU WANT TO INCREASE OTHER COMPONENTS, TOO). YOU WILL NOT REGRET IT AT A SIMPLE 1.10~1.12.. (you'll later even consider the 1.18.. yes for the street!... but they are a little hassle to change.. so do it once and forget it. YOU WILL REGRET THE 0.96.. A TRUE WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY. (I've also said it before... I'd never give up my 1.24 TBs from my Challenger.. and it is street/hwy driven.. and it is competition raced in autocross and road course events.... and its admittadly a little harsh with 1.24 TBs on some local streets (not the highway... very smooth and stable and pure joy to drive on the hwy!) , but still completely acceptable to drive on the street (by my standards... similar to other ppl's and brand-X cars having them setup for improved handling).

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Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 06:12 AM

I took these guys advice and used a 1.06 bar on my A body and have no regrets at all with it. Dick has it spec'd at 250lb rate.
Posted By: Mattax

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 01:16 PM

OT: An A-body t-bar is shorter than an B/E body t-bar.
Both length and diameter factor into the spring rate.
A b-body bar of the same diameter will have a bit lower spring rate.

On topic:
I don't know why you all are insistant this gentleman will be unhappy with his tbar upgrade considering his base and objectives. Take a look at the tires, rear springs and the types of use he has in his objectives. The tbars and swaybar selected will both noticibley reduce the roll he is experiencing. Could it be even higher roll resistance? Sure. But for his combination there are other places to make changes that ought to go with higher roll rate. Plus if some drag strip launches are part of the plan, which it seems to be, then staying on the soft side with the t-bars can be used to advantage.

For a good launch, 90/10 on the front shocks would a useful function. Not many companies offer that with an option to go back to near 50/50 for the street, so that will limit the options. On the drag race forum you may find some people who know off the top of their head. On the rear, it would pay to measure the shock length at reat and at compression and extended as it may not fall in stock parameters any more.

Finally, an alignment that is more favorable to the handling characteristics will make a difference too. Especially if you are going to modern radial tyres that tend to prefer a bit more negative camber than bias and cross-plies. This is true even for general use street tires like the BFG Radial T/A. Set the ride hieghts, a bit negative with the camber, and 2-3 degrees positive caster if you can, and then a very little toe in (static). The higher rear may make it harder to get even 2 degrees caster, but each car is a little different, just do the best you can.
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 02:27 PM

Quote:

OT: An A-body t-bar is shorter than an B/E body t-bar.
Both length and diameter factor into the spring rate.
A b-body bar of the same diameter will have a bit lower spring rate.

On topic:
I realize all of that Mattox, that is why I pointed out the rate. Closest bar to that rate is a 1.12 in a B/E body. BFG T/A radial suck on anything.
Posted By: VincentVega

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/26/13 03:08 PM

Quote:

OT: An A-body t-bar is shorter than an B/E body t-bar.
Both length and diameter factor into the spring rate.
A b-body bar of the same diameter will have a bit lower spring rate.

On topic:
I don't know why you all are insistant this gentleman will be unhappy with his tbar upgrade considering his base and objectives. Take a look at the tires, rear springs and the types of use he has in his objectives. The tbars and swaybar selected will both noticibley reduce the roll he is experiencing. Could it be even higher roll resistance? Sure. But for his combination there are other places to make changes that ought to go with higher roll rate. Plus if some drag strip launches are part of the plan, which it seems to be, then staying on the soft side with the t-bars can be used to advantage.

For a good launch, 90/10 on the front shocks would a useful function. Not many companies offer that with an option to go back to near 50/50 for the street, so that will limit the options. On the drag race forum you may find some people who know off the top of their head. On the rear, it would pay to measure the shock length at reat and at compression and extended as it may not fall in stock parameters any more.

Finally, an alignment that is more favorable to the handling characteristics will make a difference too. Especially if you are going to modern radial tyres that tend to prefer a bit more negative camber than bias and cross-plies. This is true even for general use street tires like the BFG Radial T/A. Set the ride hieghts, a bit negative with the camber, and 2-3 degrees positive caster if you can, and then a very little toe in (static). The higher rear may make it harder to get even 2 degrees caster, but each car is a little different, just do the best you can.






FWIW I have found that the largest factory big block cop TBars (.96 or .98 I can't remember) work wonderfully on the smallblock version of the same car, and still play nicely with the largest stock swaybars and over the counter shocks. that spells convenience and doesn't break the bank

Yeah, it'll be a bit softer with a big block, but still will be fine to drive. I had the same thoughts about weight transfer. The last thing you want with big horsepower and tires is a car whose front-end won't move. In fact, from a drag race perspective, .96s are thick. it's all about striking a balance, and your personal expectations.

yes, you certainly will be able to feel and see the difference with .96s. No, you won't be winning any corner carving contests. and you may not care about that. I'd definitely try that 1.25" hollow swaybar from FirmFeel, that's on my own list of things to get. This is like "pick my camshaft" - thousand people w/ thousand answers
Posted By: sparcy

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 04/30/13 04:33 AM

I have. 0 98 tb on my 69 charger bb but have done all the other mods too many to list TBOXES with subfrm contrs was huge from auto rust techs. and h kiss front sway bar a pro to type bar I got from john h himself years ago !! IM now building a shock tower brace and my front is almost done LOL never . DAN is rite think about everything all working together bigger is not always better !! my car can hang with the best of them I followD a new vet to a car show thursday and WE TOOK THE OFF RAMP TOGETHER AND HE COULD NOT LOSE ME !!
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 05/12/13 05:30 AM

Torsion bars are here, sway bar should be here on Tuesday. Will be a week or two at least before I install anything, work.....
Posted By: ThermoQuad

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 05/12/13 11:55 AM

The amount or size of torsion bar required is directly related to how much stiffening has been done to the car including a welded up/reinforced K frame.

Project black n blue has a welded reinforced k frame and lots of welding underneath with hemi leaf springs, torsion bars with FF sway bars and qa1 shocks. It is lowered to the minimum ride height with no compromises and only uses a 26 inch tall 10 inch wide tire...and some how it eats SRT8 Challengers on the road course with ease...


Who is ahead of whom in the picture?????....
And btw both drivers are very good...

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Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 05/13/13 01:36 AM

Ive had subframe connectors on the car since 07. Always wondered about torque boxes. Can I put them on correctly without repainting the rockers? Or do they not weld there?
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 05/15/13 05:24 PM

FWIW, I get the same amount of front roll couple with .96 t-bars and a 1.25 s-bar as I do with 1.22 t-bars and a 1.125 s-bar. Same results, different formula.

Go with what you've got on order and if you don't like it, you can always change. I can appreaciate only wanted to update a car once, but in any activity where personal perception/feel are invovled, it may have to happen.

Heck, I sure most joggers have tried out a few different shoes in their effort and very few are still using the same shoes brand shoes they started with. Cars are no differnet, they just take a bit mroe effort to change than lacing up shoes.
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 05/24/13 03:46 AM

Ok I put on the sway bar only so far and took a long drive. Nice noticeable difference. I hope to get the torsion bars on soon. Not much extra time working 65+ hours a week with 2 little kids... Oh well so far very happy w just the sway bar.
Posted By: mcmopars

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 06/02/13 06:10 PM

did you get the bars on??? really wanting to know your opinion.
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 06/10/13 03:36 AM

No. I hope to this week. I want to coordinate with a front end alignment and it has been raining here a ton, almost every day and I am afraid of melting if it gets wet.... I hope this week.
Posted By: mcmopars

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 06/22/13 01:17 AM

you need to stop what you are doing.this will ruin your car.i mean stop right now before it is too late.i will take this car off your hands before its too late.i will save you from all the headaches for an agreed amount of 10 k. i will be waiting for your reply.
Posted By: Joshs68

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 06/23/13 01:34 AM

So. No update really other than a ridiculous amount of rain and lots of weekends with the kiddos. I am very glad I got this car done before we had kids, and they both like to go for rides. I will put the bars on eventually but just the sway bar made me very happy.
10 k would be a nice deposit!
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 08/21/13 04:30 AM

Tom Quad,

What size bar is on the Black N Blue Charger again?

I thought I had read .990" before but I see Firm Feel doesn't carry a .990" bar?
Posted By: CPCuda

Re: looking for some suspension recommendations - 08/22/13 03:33 PM

I agree 100%. Go big or go home. You want to run with the bowties you have to go to 1.24's on a b or e body (1.14 on a body). If you want to ride like a Chrysler, buy one.
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