can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse

Posted By: AndyF

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/10/13 07:28 PM

Best chance would probably be to start with an older Viper. If you put the Viper on a diet, toss the V10 into the trash and drop in a road race version of the 6.1 or 6.4 then you might be able to hang with the big boys.

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/10/13 07:52 PM

It would take about the same $135,000 they will charge you for that car, might be less if you do lots of it yourself.

Posted By: RodStRace

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/10/13 08:09 PM

Domingo, you are a smart guy.
Why would you ask if ANY old car can be made to beat the most modern, high dollar race car currently on the market?
Seems to be a loaded question for arguing OR a fantasy of a 15 year-old.

Since you are a smart guy, I will give you an answer. Get the most up to date race car from the past and build from there.
Maybe something like this with a modern V8...
http://www.allpar.com/racing/shelby-dodge-canam.html

Posted By: domingo

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/10/13 09:01 PM

well, yes, maybe its the fantasy of a 15 year old....

I was at the local races yesterday, and a guy bought one of those mustangs, he even had 2 guys from the US come down here to set up the car for the race (who are experienced with the car) and it was fast in a straigh line, but the car was kinda heavy, had to brake sooner into the turns than the others (maybe it wasbecause it was too fast in the straights???), and it was tail happy around turns, like it needed bigger tires.

Down here, you dont have many classes, you just run what you bring....This one was on the "open class".

he obviously spent a lot of money.

Some locally built cars were faster, Mitsubishi evos and some older BMWs.

Money was defintely not the issue here.

The drivers were good, well at least one of them, he has won the national circuit championship, so that was not an issue either.

Yes, its a 15 year old dream....I like the old mopars and I thought it would be cool to build something just for the kick of it...even if it takes a complete frame and suspension swap.

Cant cost 135k no way to build something that handles good.

remember, no class rules here, so you can get away with things like huge tires, liter weight, etc.

Im gonna put the Hotchkis total suspension system on a cuda for starters and go spin some....I know it will run like a turd compared to these other cars, but oh well.....i just want to turn some laps with an old mopar....

and cant help but fantasize about what could be done...within reason of course.

Posted By: amxautox

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/10/13 09:06 PM

Yup, I have my own fanticies about an old Mopar beating the rest of the world in road races.

but I don't have the money to even try.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/10/13 09:06 PM

'65 Barracuda,275s front,295s rear,400" W9 dry sump, sequential 5 or 6 speed,coilovers and rack done.

Posted By: dangina

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/10/13 11:52 PM

for that kind money you could just buy a new nissan GTR that would spank that mustang

if I wanted to beat it cheaper, probably a modified EVO or STI should do it for less than half that

all the modified mustangs that come out to autox never seem to be in the top 10, more like around the middle of the pack - have never been impressed with them handling wise...

as for our mopars, that is my goal! don't know if it'll happen

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 12:00 AM

Here is a spec sheet for the 2 different road racing Mustangs they offer

http://www.fordracingparts.com/competition/bosscompare.asp

Posted By: RodStRace

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 12:09 AM

Hey, we all dream!

Too bad this ad is 3 years old...

http://www.viperalley.com/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=5011

Wonder if an Atom with an aluminum Hemi would be considered a Mopar? I really like the idea of 2 Hyabusa 4s merged into a V8 tho...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GVfFCH-7_c

Posted By: domingo

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 01:40 AM

Quote:

for that kind money you could just buy a new nissan GTR that would spank that mustang

if I wanted to beat it cheaper, probably a modified EVO or STI should do it for less than half that

all the modified mustangs that come out to autox never seem to be in the top 10, more like around the middle of the pack - have never been impressed with them handling wise...

as for our mopars, that is my goal! don't know if it'll happen

the owner of that mustang drives a 2012 gtr on the street!

here is his car....my original 440.6 4 speed shaker cuda beside it.

Attached picture 7583455-roadtrippuntasal.jpg

Attached picture 7583455-roadtrippuntasal.jpg

Posted By: animal8324

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 01:48 AM

Put a 90 yr old with clacoma (sp?) Behind the whell of the stang and it'll be buried in the forst corner.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 02:11 AM

Quote:

Put a 90 yr old with clacoma (sp?) Behind the whell of the stang and it'll be buried in the forst corner.

Put a 90 year old with glaucoma behind the wheel of the Stang and it'll be buried in the first corner.

Translation provided free of charge.

Posted By: animal8324

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 02:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Put a 90 yr old with clacoma (sp?) Behind the whell of the stang and it'll be buried in the forst corner.

Put a 90 year old with glaucoma behind the wheel of the Stang and it'll be buried in the first corner.

Translation provided free of charge.

Thanks

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 03:34 AM

Someone said they wanted to merge two Hayabusa engines together.....check it out

The Hayabusa V8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YAFMZyBPI4

Posted By: topside

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 03:46 AM

Bang for the buck, it's hard to beat a last-year's sorted racecar, then add power & tire and reduce weight where you can if you're not limited by rules.
As far as an older car, I like the idea of using a modern tube car and putting vintage body panels on it. Obviously wheelbase & track width of the chassis need to work with the proportions of the body, depending on how original you want it to look.

Posted By: dangina

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 03:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

for that kind money you could just buy a new nissan GTR that would spank that mustang

if I wanted to beat it cheaper, probably a modified EVO or STI should do it for less than half that

all the modified mustangs that come out to autox never seem to be in the top 10, more like around the middle of the pack - have never been impressed with them handling wise...

as for our mopars, that is my goal! don't know if it'll happen

the owner of that mustang drives a 2012 gtr on the street!

here is his car....my original 440.6 4 speed shaker cuda beside it.

sweet! probably the car I'd buy when I retire...30 years from now, by then i could probably afford it lol

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 05:11 AM

Here is how you make an old Mopar out handle that race prepped Mustang:

Get a copy of Mopar Action June 1994

How to cut 4 seconds off your ET for $10

http://www.moparaction.com/Next/history/june1994.html

So if you cut enough of your car away you will eventually beat that Mustang and if you think of it this way, once the weight cut out of the car you should be able to get away with a 0.84" diameter torsion bar and have some excellent cornering capabilities......

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 05:24 AM

I hope you know I am just kidding with that last post.

Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 06:02 AM

Yes, it can be done. Lots of recipes to get there, too. None of them particularly inexpensive, though.

Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 07:02 AM

Lightweights, I swear

S/F....Ken M

http://glennbunch.com/gallery/dodge-challenger/grassroot-motorsports-utcc-at-vir-2010#

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 02:10 PM

The mustang continental spec tire is a 275/35/18. I don't know how much hp they run in that series, but I doubt it's over 600.

To beat him:
Put 335/30/18's on all 4 corners
get the center of gravity as low as possible while still maintaining a minimum travel
Ensure your suspension maintains a good contact patch in the corners
Beat his weight to power ratio across the rpm band you'll be working in
Upgrade your braking system to ensure no fade at threshold braking lap after lap

I have a similar yet lesser goal. Keep up with a C6 Z06 & a porsche GT3. I'll be running 275/35/18's on all 4, factory suspension geometry, a 3G Hemi, and 14x1.25 with viper calipers on all 4. I should be running in a few weeks and racing in a few months, so that should give you a baseline on what to improve on. Shoot, Tim's valiant and Peter's dart are both good cars to base a build off of with your goal in mind.

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 05:46 PM

Quote:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=11545

what would it take?

One of these.... http://glennbunch.com/ inside is the 40 year history of what it takes to make one of these cars a world beater on an international racing stage. It ain't easy, nor cheap and there are lots of pitfalls along the way.

Here is a comparable GTO doing the same; http://gtoroadracer.com/

Again, not easy or cheap, and to be honest, there is not much of the original cars that remain in either case. However, with Dodge getting out of Nascar, I'm sure there are a lot of W9/P5 race engines out there that can be had cheap. Reskin an older cup chassis with an old PLymouth and boom, instant classic car with high speed capability ala Ray Evernham's recent '64 Plymouth build.

Neat thing about doing something like this with a Charger or Road Runner is that they already have coke bottle styling to contain the wide rubber. No flares required.

Posted By: RodStRace

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 06:18 PM

Quote:

Someone said they wanted to merge two Hayabusa engines together.....check it out

The Hayabusa V8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YAFMZyBPI4

That's the engine in the Atom I posted too...
Neat stuff....

Agree that a cup car reskinned would be a good start. Trouble is, they only make a couple road course cars for many speedway versions, and Domingo didn't say what the course is like.
If it's more like an autocross, a cup car is going to be like a bull in a china shop...

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 09:49 PM

It depends. The basic chassis may be built pretty symetrically since Nascar imposes rules on how much offset and bias can be built into the chassis. Changing control arms and spring rates to balance the car out for right and left turns should be a simple bolt on effort if the car is a symetrical design. Actually a Nationwide or Late Model series car may also be an alternativesince they are built on slightly shorter wheelbases to different requirement levels.

For that matter, you could probably have Racefab, Alston, BMR, Howe or any other supplier put one together specifically for your requirements. Heck, Howe even offers a TA2, GTA, and GT2 chassis package if you are so inclined: http://www.howeracing.com/Adobe/HoweTA20811.pdf with a base price tag of $72.5k for an LS3. Since they will do any engine and body combo, all it takes is some more money for a change to a Hemi and a Challenger body and you should come in around the same price tag as the Mustang listed above. In the oval track chassis, they do offer symetrical or offset chassis builds in various stages of completion. Prices start at $2700 and go up from there. http://www.howeracing.com/p-7331-perimeter.aspx

If you really want to keep it mopar based and do it all yourself, there are enough reproduction parts out there that you can buy all the core pieces from an E body to reproduce the old Mopar Kit car program chassis for around $3500 and then add all the associated tubing for the cage and other structure for a few hundred more. After that, you can skin it in darn near any body you want. Run t-bars and leafs, XV L2, AlterK, or whatever suspension suits your fancy.

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 10:57 PM

Here is a pic of that 1964 race prepped Imperial:

Attached picture 7584624-64Imperial.jpg

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 11:33 PM

Perfect! I was about to pull the trigger on the Mustang but I will get one of those Imperials and a torch instead! You just save me $134,000...

Posted By: amxautox

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 11:35 PM

Quote:

Perfect! I was about to pull the trigger on the Mustang but I will get one of those Imperials and a torch instead! You just save me $134,000...

...and you sure don't need a top or sides on your car in the Great Snowy North...

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 11:41 PM

Well I was riding my dirt bike yesterday.....

Attached picture 7584666-540956_10151626531898135_1974867957_n.jpg

Posted By: amxautox

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 11:43 PM

...why are you steering to the right while turning to the left?

I know, I know. Same as what Doc told Lightening in the 'Cars' movie.

Posted By: topside

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/11/13 11:59 PM

There's a tube-chassis GT car with a C4 body Dzus-fastened to it in Hemmings right now for $11,900. Imagine that with a suitable vintage Mopar body on it...it'd be great with an early Valiant body - tell me it wouldn't drive the other guys nuts - but that's too narrow without flares or seriously bulged fenders & quarters.

Posted By: PHJ426

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/12/13 06:22 AM

Imagine if they would have been tracing where the center of gravity was moving around as the weight was removed from the 1964 Imperial.

The last move should have been lowering that car down some more that is one high riding go cart when they finished up with it.

Posted By: savoy64

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/14/13 02:18 AM

you guys should check out the AMXperience web page--check the Silver State Races---check the stories about the Great White--piloted by Tony Z---this is a steel body 1970 javelin, built 401 ($35000) T10 4 speed driven by a self taught road racer---he has set all the records at the silver state beating the foremost race cars from around the world ferraris-maseratis-lamborginis-vipers-calloway corvettes---in fact the only car ever to go a tad faster was a carbon fiber body camaro on a nascar road chassis with the largest crate engine made,driven by a nascar driver and it went only ONE mile an hour faster---tony Z"s wife has used this same car to break all of Craig Breedloves wifes bonneville records....probably the venerable GREEN BRICK built by mopar muscle could run with this mustang---have faith.....bob

Posted By: amxautox

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/14/13 02:21 AM

http://www.amx-perience.com/

The Great White Javelin and California Classic AMC;

California Classics

Posted By: savoy64

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/14/13 02:27 AM

the Tony Z story is about a self built car--his largest expense was $35000 for a 401 motor built by a nascar engine builder that was known for racing AMC's in his youth---in fact Tony was so broke on his first race he had to borrow a set of nascar road course tires---so i would imagine he did his car for way less than $100,000---maybe even less than $50,000....bob (639)

Posted By: topbrent

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/15/13 09:45 AM

I would enjoy watching Tim Werner's Valiant take on that Mustang.

It would be interesting to hear Tim's or AndyF's comments regarding performance comparisons.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techa...track_day_prep/

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/18/13 12:34 AM

Did they not put a new engine in that car a few years back? I think it was a 500hp small block.

Posted By: 74yellowduster

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/19/13 04:59 PM

there's a guy here building a track car
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=215832

for a powerplant, you could go with a stroker (451 or whatever) running 13:1 compression on E85 with a quickfuel E85 carb. big block B or RB with aluminum top end weighs about 470lbs, or a bit less than an original all iron small block

with the chassis set up right, light car, powerplant you would smoke him.

i dont know about getting your cuda light enough, but it might be doable. abodies get a head start on weight reduction.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/20/13 05:55 PM

Quote:

there's a guy here building a track car
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=215832

for a powerplant, you could go with a stroker (451 or whatever) running 13:1 compression on E85 with a quickfuel E85 carb. big block B or RB with aluminum top end weighs about 470lbs, or a bit less than an original all iron small block

with the chassis set up right, light car, powerplant you would smoke him.

i dont know about getting your cuda light enough, but it might be doable. abodies get a head start on weight reduction.

He's building a C-prepared autocross car. Not a really a track car.

John Sandburgs 70 AAR Cuda has own SCCA national in C-prepared ladies class. It's has a fabricated front end, 12" wide rims.... And most of all 40+ years autocross car building experience.

Still, this is not optimized to be an competitive track/road course car.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/20/13 06:45 PM

Quote:

Did they not put a new engine in that car a few years back? I think it was a 500hp small block.

Yep, Tim's car got a 427 inch SB which made about 500/500 on the dyno. We pulled the car apart in 2011 to make some changes and it hasn't gone back together yet.

Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/20/13 08:58 PM

A cpl great pics of John Sandberg's AAR SCCA C/Prepared autocross car... he and I met at a solo race (actually, a hi-speed solo road course event at Blackhawk Farms, ~90 miles w/nw of Chgo) in June of 1975 and have remained best friends ever since then.

Attached picture 7596281-JolietAutobahnOct72012-Mitch'sTA,Sandberg'AAR,Andrew'sChall.jpg

Posted By: Explodo

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/20/13 09:16 PM

I saw a magazine article that was comparing the mustang, corvette, and GTR on a track with a professional driver and full race logging gear. The mustang was handicapped by the absurdly stupid solid axle that they still put in them. It could hang in the straights and even catch up a little but it lost so much in the corners that it really didn't matter.

Build a light car with a full cage and fully modern and sorted independent suspension and modify it enough to put big tires under it. In the end you'll end up with something akin to the '64 Plymouth that Everham motorsports just did. It will have the outer look of an old car, but it will not be the same car at all.

Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/20/13 09:22 PM

I hate it when comparisons are made between apples, oranges and tomatoes... especially by a publication/magazine that's supposed to be respectable.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/21/13 04:13 AM

Quote:

I saw a magazine article that was comparing the mustang, corvette, and GTR on a track with a professional driver and full race logging gear. The mustang was handicapped by the absurdly stupid solid axle that they still put in them. It could hang in the straights and even catch up a little but it lost so much in the corners that it really didn't matter.

...

Mustang has seating for 4 too.

It's base $20K car modified into a car in the ballpark of those two fully designed super cars. One with a $50K msrp for the most basic version, the other $101K.

What they started out at, really isn't a good excuse. But the Mustang seats 4 and more trunk room.

Posted By: HyperPerformance

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/21/13 04:35 AM

I had the pleasure of taking my buddies Boss Mustang Laguna-Seca out for a couple of laps around VIR. For an out of the box car it is an amazing piece of engineering. I also had the chance to take a few laps in the 2013 Shelby - I thought it would be a dog, but it was amazing to say the least. I had clutch issues in my race car that weekend (its a 95 Cobra R 351 full-out race) so I couldn't compare how well I could keep up or blow by, but from the few laps I did get in I was having to work it pretty damn hard to match lap times.

Hopefully I'll be able to report how a modified '68 Dart will do out there in a year or two....it will be hard to keep up with all the electronic stability controls, ABS and the high-winding Mod motors. Take the electronic crap away from the new Mustangs and I might have a shot!

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/21/13 04:48 AM

Boss 302R on e-bay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...n#ht_1206wt_566

No weight or HP specs listed but I hear they are 3100lbs and make 520HP. Don't think I would want to try outrun in on a race track. You might have a shot a street Boss 302 with an older car with a bit of work.

Posted By: HyperPerformance

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/21/13 05:00 AM

That ad looks like one of the Rehegen Racings Continental Tire Challenge cars. Dean Martin at Rehegen took the American Iron podium with a Boss 302R last year - but due to class rules it was only around 345 HP. With my old Cobra I can't keep up with him through the twisties at all (and I tried!) Dean is one heck of a driver!

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/21/13 05:13 AM

I think this is the engine it has :

http://www.roushyates.com/EnginePrograms/RoadRacing/ContinentalTireSeries.aspx

Looks like it is restricted to 420hp.

It's the cammer engine that makes 520hp which I think was in the older 302R

http://www.roushyates.com/EnginePrograms/RoadRacing/DaytonaPrototype.aspx

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/21/13 05:24 AM

I don't see why Mitches Challey couldn't whip it with a 100hp boost and some A6 rubber. Those Stangs are well built yes, but not THAT unbeatable.

Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/21/13 08:29 PM

72Swinger/Emil... Thanks for the suggestive compliment that my Chally could outrun the late model cars... one factor is critical... the "nut behind the wheel" (I'm a little rusty and trying to get back into scene as time/$$ allows).

T/Ake care,
Mitch

Attached picture 7597451-DSC08405.jpg

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/24/13 12:47 AM

More mustang specs here, lots of nice pictures of a modern factory road racer.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2013-Ford...#ht_33751wt_941

Posted By: doggs330

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/24/13 05:21 AM

I believe this '64 would. With the modern nascar chassis. R5/P7 and a four speed.

http://blogs.hotrod.com/ray-evernhams-mo...l#axzz2LmlysnLe

http://blogs.moparmusclemagazine.com/6790159/miscellaneous/ray-evernham-64-plymouth-belvedere/

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse - 02/24/13 03:02 PM

I like that car! I really like the cage work in both the mustang and the fury , in Ray's car the way they went around the fuel cell is a thing of beauty.

can an old mopar be built 2 outrun this on a racecourse