Moparts
Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg
Posted By: PHJ426
Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/24/12 02:05 AM
I like the way they welded the splined section into the coupling pot.
Only question I didn't see answered was what kind of pressure are they assisting the newer box with? Did they perform the shim upgrade to knock the assist down to the 850 PSI range or is it still the stock 1969 pressure over assist going to the newer box?
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/24/12 02:10 AM
I did a write up on this months ago. The effort is around a stage 2 box from FF.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/24/12 02:16 AM
Pete did you see how they welded the splined insert into the pot coupling.
Does the column still have to be cut doing the install this way?
I would think knocking the assist pressure down to 850 psi would obviously add more effort to steering input. Maybe make it more like a stage 3 box?
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/24/12 02:44 AM
I have not tried playing with the pressure. I saw Ricks creation , but I doubt Borgeson will do anything. Frankly I don't think this box will be around forever due to the price. Few really appreciate what this is in my opinion. The only reason for the plunge coupler Rick made was for E bodies. And even at that, one of these cars is usually modified to be much stiffer than oe with additional bracing, etc. In that case the plunge coupler may not be necessary. All the rest have collapsible shafts to take up any play. I cut my steering shaft for the install. I would not even consider going back to a stock box.
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/24/12 09:06 AM
Is this something covered in Mopar Action magazine?
My subscription expired...
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/24/12 02:44 PM
current issue..
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/25/12 12:23 PM
It says so on the cover of MA.
Too bad I can't buy a single mag on their site. This is one issue I might be interested in reading rightaway, even just in PDF-format.
I've got a Borgeson-box waiting installation for my daily heap, but one of the things holding me back at the moment is the supposed need to cut the existing steeringshaft. Not sure how easy Rick could reach parts on the car in his article, but with the engine installed in my '73 Dart, there's pretty much NO room at all to cut or modify anything. Unless the entire steeringcolumn is removed from the car that is or maybe the exhaustmanifold.
I think my steeringbox installation has to wait until I'm ready to pull the 318 and go for the 5.7 Hemi installment.
Was there something special done to the coupler before welding?
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/25/12 12:44 PM
Im in the procces of installng one.
I dont have any mags but thats how i did it.
Cut the splined part of both couplers and weld in the new splines to stock coupler.
Aldough paying $130 for the borgeson coupler and only use the splined part kind of sucks.
And the supplied adapter fittings only fit the box not the stock hoses.
And i had to grind some on the box to even make it fit.
I really do not think its worth the money no matter how good it drives.
For those kind of money i dont think there should be any kind of fab involved.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/25/12 03:35 PM
Quote:
I really do not think its worth the money no matter how good it drives.
For those kind of money i dont think there should be any kind of fab involved.
You and me brother.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/25/12 09:54 PM
Rick showed the guys at Borgeson the area of the box that needs to be ground down to fit in the K frames.
From the article it sounds like they will be addressing that.
He also lists the place that modified the steering pot by welding in the splined insert. Incase Borgeson decides not to supply the modified pot couplers.
Posted By: BirdinPieces
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/25/12 11:47 PM
I looked at it and thought it was a great idea until it came to the part about cutting off the steering shaft. The welded coupler should have been included from the very beginning. I would think it would be cheaper for them to make the coupler instead of the adapter they have now anyway.
Besides, then it would be truly "bolt in"...
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 07:25 AM
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I looked at it and thought it was a great idea until it came to the part about cutting off the steering shaft. The welded coupler should have been included from the very beginning. I would think it would be cheaper for them to make the coupler instead of the adapter they have now anyway.
Besides, then it would be truly "bolt in"...
I think this is the only reason holding most of the mopar community back from buying it...
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 08:38 AM
This is the reason why the Mopar community is abandoned by the aftermarket, all the pissin and moaning. Find another column shaft to cut and save the numbers matching golden nugget shaft for a rainy day. Or do what Booger did. It is an expensive box though. Borgeson products as a whole are over priced.
Posted By: cogen80
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 01:03 PM
i don't see what the big deal is about cutting your column? but i also don't know why they couldn't have made a plug and play type of thing either. seriously how hard could that have been?
Posted By: DynoDave
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 06:05 PM
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This is the reason why the Mopar community is abandoned by the aftermarket, all the pissin and moaning.
Really? I've NEVER heard a vendor use that as a reason. Generally, vendors are in business to MAKE MONEY. They'll sell to the Studebaker crowd if there's a business case to support it. And the lack of a good Mopar business case (lower volumes) has always been the reason I have heard for less support Vs. GM or Ford.
And to be honest, I always felt that this lack of comparative aftermarket support made the Mopar crowd a hardier, more self sufficient bunch Vs. those who can simply order a whole car via the mail (say, the '65 Mustang for instance).
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 06:44 PM
Well, I'd say the pissin' and moanin' happens in the virtual world which then leads to confusion with casual readers and translates into a reluctance to buy, which leads to even lower volumes than what mopars are already notorius for. Add to that constraint that the handling mopar crowd is THE smallest segment of the mopar hobby, and we are automatically set up for a lot of "do it yourself".
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 07:04 PM
I'll reward inovation for something I need, especially if it saves me time, money, modifying my original parts, or all of the above, and will be the first in line to buy from the first guy who comes to bat with something complete. Such as in this case, a true bolt in no modification steering box upgrade. Offer a ready to use no welding or steering column modification required bolt in coupler, a bolt in box with no clearance grinding required, all of the appropriate hoses and fittings (and even pump if required) credit card in hand awaiting the call.
Posted By: Keith Black®
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 08:41 PM
Does anyone have some pics? Maybe of an install?
Cheers
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 10:12 PM
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This is the reason why the Mopar community is abandoned by the aftermarket, all the pissin and moaning.
Really? I've NEVER heard a vendor use that as a reason. Generally, vendors are in business to MAKE MONEY. They'll sell to the Studebaker crowd if there's a business case to support it. And the lack of a good Mopar business case (lower volumes) has always been the reason I have heard for less support Vs. GM or Ford.
And to be honest, I always felt that this lack of comparative aftermarket support made the Mopar crowd a hardier, more self sufficient bunch Vs. those who can simply order a whole car via the mail (say, the '65 Mustang for instance).
That is my point, this is nothing new. After 50 yrs we have a decent alternative to the dinosaur steering box we have been stuck with and it should also be cheap and bolt in.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/26/12 11:00 PM
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After 50 yrs we have a decent alternative to the dinosaur steering box we have been stuck with and it should also be cheap and bolt in.
Actually, not IMO. I'd be happy with either or, but would prefer and pay more for one that simply bolted in. The current price tag PLUS the fab work? No thank you!
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/27/12 12:51 AM
From the article it appears Rick has shed some light on how to make this product better by:
A. Showing them where the box needs to be clearanced to fit all the Mopar K frames.
B. How to build a pot coupling box instead of using the U joint.
C. Coaxing them into making adapter fittings for the box so factory Mopar hoses fit.
Why is everyone so cranked up about a modification being truly "bolt in" heck even them Chinese crankshafts from some vendors require machining to fit in your Factory Mopar blocks.
And welding a K frame requires welding
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/27/12 02:55 AM
Quote:
From the article it appears Rick has shed some light on how to make this product better by:
A. Showing them where the box needs to be clearanced to fit all the Mopar K frames.
B. How to build a pot coupling box instead of using the U joint.
C. Coaxing them into making adapter fittings for the box so factory Mopar hoses fit.
Why is everyone so cranked up about a modification being truly "bolt in" heck even them Chinese crankshafts from some vendors require machining to fit in your Factory Mopar blocks.
And welding a K frame requires welding
If Borgeson needed input from someone external to make their product actually fit it's intended application one has to wonder how much research they put into it. Comparable boxes for other makes from Borgeson do not cost as much nor need as many mods to fit. One has to wonder if Borgeson slapped together something that could be made to work, slapped an extra tariff on it since Mopars are stepchildren in the aftermarket and used the magazine hype to sell them.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/27/12 03:12 AM
My Borgeson box in my Falcon requires similar mods & while it uses a much better box than the OE unit it doesn't use as good of a box as the Mopar offering... If you actually drive you car you get more information feed to you by the steering box than virtually an other component... If you want the best driving experience it's worth it to step up.....
Posted By: sshemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/27/12 09:53 AM
Quote:
My Borgeson box in my Falcon requires similar mods & while it uses a much better box than the OE unit it doesn't use as good of a box as the Mopar offering... If you actually drive you car you get more information feed to you by the steering box than virtually an other component... If you want the best driving experience it's worth it to step up.....
Thats what i was thinking too + its lighter than stock.
I guess what i am most upset with is the adapter fittings i bought together with the box that i can now throw in the trash can.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 01:49 AM
Quote:
current issue..
i went to the store and picked up the current issue of ma and i don't see any article on installing this box
on the cover it says million dollar beeper with a 69 runner on the front , Feb 2013
Posted By: DynoDave
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 02:37 AM
Quote:
Quote:
current issue..
i went to the store and picked up the current issue of ma and i don't see any article on installing this box
on the cover it says million dollar beeper with a 69 runner on the front , Feb 2013
Your store is an issue behind. "Current" is the April 2013 issue, with a Petty blue '71 Plymouth Superbird creation on the cover.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 04:39 AM
thats what i get for living in a small city in southern alberta
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 06:03 AM
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i don't see what the big deal is about cutting your column? but i also don't know why they couldn't have made a plug and play type of thing either. seriously how hard could that have been?
Cutting the column?
SOME of us have one year only steering columns...1970 B body A/T type. If I screwed mine up I'd be stranded for awhile looking for another, which certainly means spending mucho Dinero.
This is a situation where price is proportionate to ease of assembly. If it were only $200, you'd be an idiot to complain about having to modify things a bit. Ramp that price to $500 or more, then things had better fit right and work properly.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 06:36 AM
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i don't see what the big deal is about cutting your column? but i also don't know why they couldn't have made a plug and play type of thing either. seriously how hard could that have been?
Cutting the column?
SOME of us have one year only steering columns...1970 B body A/T type. If I screwed mine up I'd be stranded for awhile looking for another, which certainly means spending mucho Dinero.
This is a situation where price is proportionate to ease of assembly. If it were only $200, you'd be an idiot to complain about having to modify things a bit. Ramp that price to $500 or more, then things had better fit right and work properly.
One year only steering shaft? The shaft itself is what gets modded not the column.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 07:02 AM
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One year only steering shaft? The shaft itself is what gets modded not the column.
Yup.. Nobody seems to realize the lower shaft can be swapped from quite a few other cars & since you modding the one for the Borgeson you might as well swap the lower shaft before you cut it...
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 07:21 AM
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Yup.. Nobody seems to realize the lower shaft can be swapped from quite a few other cars & since you modding the one for the Borgeson you might as well swap the lower shaft before you cut it...
Yes, they are interchangable, however if Borgenson would just supply a proper coupler in the first place tearing into the steering column wouldn't be neccessary at all which relates to my initial comments.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 08:11 AM
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Yup.. Nobody seems to realize the lower shaft can be swapped from quite a few other cars & since you modding the one for the Borgeson you might as well swap the lower shaft before you cut it...
Yes, they are interchangable, however if Borgenson would just supply a proper coupler in the first place tearing into the steering column wouldn't be neccessary at all which relates to my initial comments.
I agree it would be great if they offered a OE style coupler as an option but when you realize how limited the market is & the expense of a part like the coupler body which requires quite a few machining steps then needs to be hardened to a proper level...
I'm not thrilled with the idea that any length variation is shifted from the coupler to the collapsing slip joint
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 05:49 PM
Quote:
I agree it would be great if they offered a OE style coupler as an option but when you realize how limited the market is & the expense of a part like the coupler body which requires quite a few machining steps then needs to be hardened to a proper level...
I'm not thrilled with the idea that any length variation is shifted from the coupler to the collapsing slip joint
I'm not so sure the market is all that limitted, in fact I think it's a good sized niche they could fill if they went about offering a COMPLETE product along with the right marketing effort to raise awareness. They don't strike me as a company that can't afford to do them right if they so choose, I feel pretty comfortable that even if it hurt a little they could do it if they wanted to and still keep the doors open. Doing something the right way isn't usually cheap or easy, but the rewards are also likely to be better if it's done right.
*On a side note: I always get a kick out of comments from companies who come to market with a poorly done product for a specific niche and then drop it after a while saying they don't make the product anymore because the demand was too low from (Insert market niche name here). They never want to accept the blame for producing a part that wasn't accepted by the target buying audiance that was actually due to the short commings of thier offering.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 06:29 PM
Yet Mike Ross has made a number of expensive parts with allot of $$ invested only to find the market won't support a high quality reproduction part....
They've provided the basis of a much needed upgrade, If you feel the market will support a custom coupler make it & see how it sells...
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/28/12 06:51 PM
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Yet Mike Ross has made a number of expensive parts with allot of $$ invested only to find the market won't support a high quality reproduction part....
Mike and I talk often, I don't think that statement is entirely true. Probably more of a case of there weren't enough cars remaining to be restored that still needed said parts than the quality or the $ invested in the parts, that combined with the poor economy and slowing musclecar market trending towards fewer nut and bolt restorations that might use said parts over cheaper or used parts alternatives.
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They've provided the basis of a much needed upgrade
I agree, a basis, now finish the job!
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If you feel the market will support a custom coupler make it & see how it sells...
Yes, I think THEY should, that and grind the boxes so they fit without further mods. 
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 02:54 AM
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I'm not so sure the market is all that limitted, in fact I think it's a good sized niche they could fill if they went about offering a COMPLETE product along with the right marketing effort to raise awareness.
I dunno. Mopar buyers are automatically at a 4:1 disadvantage compared to Chevy or Ford potential sales market. Once you can actually penetrate the mopar market, it is populated predominately of drag racing and restoration activities. This box is heavier than drag racers want and it is no where near correct for the resto crowd.
It took how many years of prodding to have this forum spun off from moparts general menu? Despite that, there are still only 37 members who have logged their combinations and I know four of those are mine. Compare that to the e.t. bracket list of fastest cars on moparts with hundreds of entries, and you could say we are a niche of the niche of the niche. Handling mopars are a very, very, small segment of the market.
They are so small in fact, that the Goodguys organization jokes about creating a bounty for mopars to show up at their autocross events because the turn out is so small. To put that in to a perspective, a vendor will sell 16 boxes to other guys for every one mopar box that is sold. Sure, maybe they could sell one additional unit if it was completely engineered as a turn key deal, but again, they don't seem to be pursuing that market segment. IMO, this is more of a situation where they look at fitting mopars as a by product of their production, not a target of the production, therefore they see no value in engineering additional components to reach one additional sale for every 16 they make with practically no effort.
Borgeson reps feel free to dissect this view and prove me wrong by providing market research numbers. If you're doing product planning, you will have these numbers.
Posted By: shakerjoe
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 04:29 AM
I for one, would be more inclined to spend the money/my money, on a completely engineered kit ready to install with all parts required and included - than to cut/hack/weld - I don't own a welder so I'd have to bring to someone to do it - hopefully correctly - the first time - so I could complete the install. I think if a company wants to bring a product to market to sell, the "kinks or bugs" should be as worked out as possible - whether it be for A,B,C or E body or whatever - they are charging a premium price and I wouldn't argue they don't deserve the money for a premium product, but I just don't think selling it - for me anyway - that I should have to do the involved labor to get it to work is right - charge a few more bucks if you have to so as it works the first time out of the box for the installer; not all of us have the means or funds to go to the well twice or more to get it right and have a product they can enjoy on install. I've been thinking of a FF3 kit for my project - more weight, less money - but is a straight up install as far as I know...my
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 04:46 AM
When we installed an '88D100 cab on my '79W150 the steering column shaft had to be lengthened, so it was lengthened and welded. Not a big deal. But ita work truck not a #'sw2 show car. So on that mindset I understand its not a a 100% match to being oem. This box is not for that application.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 06:01 AM
Quote:
Thats what i was thinking too + its lighter than stock.
I guess what i am most upset with is the adapter fittings i bought together with the box that i can now throw in the trash can.
why is this? sorry i dont have the article. dont you need to buy the coupler with the box?
Posted By: sublimehemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 08:51 AM
can somebody post pics how eberg did it in the write up....or rick if your reading this.... post up some pics here please.......everyone here is complaining....look,shipping your old steering box back and forth to firm feel will beat least 70 bucks plus 359 for box your at $430..summit has new box for $640 and is currently out of stock on them on both splines...so they must be selling them cause last time i checked they had both in stock......you can sell your old for 200 or more depending on your condition...and its a wash.... i am in the market for the new box and going to buy it soon... i am waiting to see if summit will do 15% in a few days like they did last year... then its $544
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 09:06 AM
Quote:
can somebody post pics how eberg did it in the write up....or rick if your reading this.... post up some pics here please.......everyone here is complaining....look,shipping your old steering box back and forth to firm feel will beat least 70 bucks plus 359 for box your at $430..summit has new box for $640 and is currently out of stock on them on both splines...so they must be selling them cause last time i checked they had both in stock......you can sell your old for 200 or more depending on your condition...and its a wash.... i am in the market for the new box and going to buy it soon... i am waiting to see if summit will do 15% in a few days like they did last year... then its $544
The magazine is available on newstands now. This type of helpful info comes because people purchase the magazine to support it's content.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 10:02 AM
Pick up a copy. Unless your in Europe you should be able to pick up a copy, if your doing an install or contemplating its well worth it.
The question I have for Rick after reading the article a couple of times was what is his opinion of running the box on 850 psi instead of the stock pressures our ps pumps deliver.
Posted By: BirdinPieces
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 04:12 PM
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Yup.. Nobody seems to realize the lower shaft can be swapped from quite a few other cars & since you modding the one for the Borgeson you might as well swap the lower shaft before you cut it...
Yes, they are interchangable, however if Borgenson would just supply a proper coupler in the first place tearing into the steering column wouldn't be neccessary at all which relates to my initial comments.
You cant go back once you cut the shaft either(without a lot of work). If I want to sell my car later, I will have a harder time selling it with hacked up and/or not original parts. If I have the original box waiting to get bolted back in and it can be easily, all is good.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 04:36 PM
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Quote:
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Yup.. Nobody seems to realize the lower shaft can be swapped from quite a few other cars & since you modding the one for the Borgeson you might as well swap the lower shaft before you cut it...
Yes, they are interchangable, however if Borgenson would just supply a proper coupler in the first place tearing into the steering column wouldn't be neccessary at all which relates to my initial comments.
You cant go back once you cut the shaft either(without a lot of work). If I want to sell my car later, I will have a harder time selling it with hacked up and/or not original parts. If I have the original box waiting to get bolted back in and it can be easily, all is good.
With the column on the bench I can have the lower shaft swapped out in under ten minutes...
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 05:46 PM
Randy, you are a reasonable guy and we tend to agree on many things here on Moparts, and I see your point of view and understand that it can be done if you so choose.
My point (and others here) was that some of us would rather not go through the process of removing the steering column, swapping shafts, or whatever else just to do a steering box swap. If this box were all scienced out (as i feel it should be) it would not require modifying the box, steering column, or require Rube Goldberg'd fitting and hose connectors. These are all things they could handle if they really wanted to, heck Ehrenburg even did the R&R for them and made possible suggestions (that seem to have fallen on deaf ears?).
IMO people are too quick to accept mediocrity in todays market place, it leads to a bunch of half azzed products that fills the niche enough that other quality competitors avoid any attempts. What happened to doing things right?
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 06:14 PM
I agree it would be better if they had taken the project to a higher level, & I agree in the case of restoration parts not getting the final details right is a deal breaker and poisons the market for another vendor to offer a superior product.... But this steering box isn't aimed at a resto project, it's aimed at someone that wants performance... I haven't seen make performance parts that truly are bolt on, you need to modify.... Borgeson has their roots in Hotrods not restorations, I don't see them making a coupler, though I've certainly been wrong before... They have the equipment & skills to do it. A fairly simple CAD program, a block of steel & a trip to a heat treater & they could make a short run to see if the demand truly is there....
FWIW my point is swapping just the lower shaft of a collapsing column isn't difficult & since your cutting it anyway the original application of the lower shaft isn't critical....
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 06:25 PM
Understood but let me add this. Case in point, my own my 71 340 Duster, it is a ground up and highly detailed restoration but I will be straying from originallity by adding some bolt on aftermarket suspension parts (a bunch of them in fact) to add some spice to the drivability. My already restored stock parts all bagged and tagged in storage. I already have a StageIII Firm Feel box but would consider a Borgenson if it was a simple swap out, however I'd rather not remove and modify my completely restored and detailed steering column to do it, in fact, if that were my only option I'd just stay with what I have. I want any additions to my car to be 100% reversable in a short period of time with no additional parts or fab to my car required.
So, bottom line. If things remain as they are with this setup Borgenson has lost a potential sale, and I'm sure I won't be the only one.
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 06:48 PM
This is where being a junk collector pays off having six or seven extra columns. A parts column out of the pull a part or a swap meet can be had for $30 or less seeing we only need the shaft.
But I'm too cheap to spend $600 on a steering box. If you have $600 for a steering box you can afford to spend extra to make it fit.
If you are doing a prissy car where everything has to be perfect doing a major change like this doesn't make sense. But if you are going to let it all hang out no big deal in cutting a column.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 08:09 PM
Quote:
If you are doing a prissy car where everything has to be perfect doing a major change like this doesn't make sense.
Maybe not to you anyway show us what YOU are working on?
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 08:35 PM
I only have old junk.
Tried having a nicer car but that wasn't any fun. My last suspension mod was switching frames, cutting the column, grinding the shaft to make it work. Rack and pinion is going to be nice!
http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab141/moparpollack/132.jpg
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 09:19 PM
i haven't read the article and i can't buy it yet in my hometown, I have a 71-74 bbody column, so theres no collapsing joints, just a straight shaft, I know with the box they reccomended the universal coupler :
http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1724i was wondering if one couldn't use a rag joint instead?
http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand...g-joints?page=2They had these rag joints on some of the columns to reduce vibration (i think the slang term was hockey pucks) what would be the superior one to have?
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 09:31 PM
The last one I bought was $65 from Parr automotive 36 spline .75". We just welded it on the shaft and used the set screw.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 09:33 PM
Quote:
i haven't read the article and i can't buy it yet in my hometown, I have a 71-74 bbody column, so theres no collapsing joints, just a straight shaft, I know with the box they reccomended the universal coupler : http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/product.php?productid=1724
i was wondering if one couldn't use a rag joint instead?
http://www.summitracing.com/search/brand...g-joints?page=2
They had these rag joints on some of the columns to reduce vibration (i think the slang term was hockey pucks) what would be the superior one to have?
The U-joint design is tight & positive, assuming it lives, if there is movement that the joint can't deal with it fails & then things get real sloppy.... The rag joint can absorb all sorts of angularity issues plus it eliminates noise transfer... But because it is flexible it also dampens steering effort very slightly... That all said here's my Falcon coupler...
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 09:44 PM
Reason for the hole in the floor? The Borgeson box I'm usin was intended for a Mustang which has about 4" more room in the engine compartment so the coupler would be in the enginge compartment... On my Falcon it's in line with the firewall.. My solution...
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 11:09 PM
Quote:
Reason for the hole in the floor? The Borgeson box I'm usin was intended for a Mustang which has about 4" more room in the engine compartment so the coupler would be in the enginge compartment... On my Falcon it's in line with the firewall.. My solution...
looks good
what spline is the bordgeson box? 36?
I don't understand how the ujoint alone is $130
Posted By: 58pwrwgn
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/29/12 11:50 PM
Borgeson came out with a complete kit, but I agree that cutting the steering shaft wasn't the best solution. Rick looked at the product and had some ideas on how to improve on it. If you read the article Rick tried the box on multiple K frames from 62 to 89, some he found needed clearance grinding. It also said borgeson was working on hose adapters and if they didn't make the coupler, Rick has a machine shop that will modify yours. There is a part 2 in the next issue. This box is new and will take time for the word of mouth to spread.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/30/12 04:29 AM
There will always be people that see a half empty glass
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/30/12 04:49 AM
Quote:
looks good
what spline is the bordgeson box? 36?
I don't understand how the ujoint alone is $130
11/16-36
They are damn proud of their U joints....
Posted By: Stroker
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/30/12 05:10 AM
I sent Borgeson an email after I read the article to ask if they were going to make couplers.
They said they weren't planning to.
I was hoping they would. How could that not help the box sell?
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/30/12 05:18 AM
Well, repeated emails to Jaimie Passon convinced him to offer service parts for his yet-to-be-released 5 speed trans. Maybe if the BigWigs at Borgeson get enough calls/emails, they may consider it.
I just read Ehrenbergs article today. It sounds tempting though I have no complaints with my stage 3 FF unit with fast ratio arms.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/30/12 05:43 AM
I need to call Dick and see if he can do something with my FF stage 2 box, maybe since it does not have many miles on it he can upgrade it to the stage 3 or 4 box with the fast ratio arms.
And do a price difference between the two of these options.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/30/12 08:22 AM
Quote:
I sent Borgeson an email after I read the article to ask if they were going to make couplers.
They said they weren't planning to.
I was hoping they would. How could that not help the box sell?
I'm sure their way of thinking is anyone who really wants one will mod the coupler or do a bit of grinding.
Posted By: 58pwrwgn
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 12/30/12 04:34 PM
The article said Borgeson would grind clearance in future boxes.
Hose adapters: Rick noted that the stock hoses line up with the new box. All that was needed was an adapter for the metric fitting instead of new hoses. Article: "Borgeson is said to be working on simple adapters.".
Coupler: Rick modified his coupler at a local machine shop. His first version worked but was short. Said " We'll show the final part in an update next issue.". He also gave the name and number of the machine shop that modded his. They made a fixture and will be happy to mod your coupler.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 02:07 AM
I finally made a proper pot coupler setup. You don't need to buy a Borgeson fancy U-joint just for the splined piece, they sell just the splined insert, cheap. Relatively easy job, next issue will have an update. The "new" pot coupler makes it a 100% bolt in in any '62-up Mopar. You could make it with a 1" drill bit and a couple of roll pins in the driveway! Just need any '66-up coupler body.
The pot (plunge) coupler is a 100% necessity on virtually any Mopar, and 110% on E-bodies and any '66-down Mope.
Wish Borgeson could sell it cheaper, but probably not gonna happen - it requires sacrificing three cores, one of which is a real oddball.
Rick
Posted By: mopardamo
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 03:34 AM
I didn't figure you were going to let this just slide. Thanks Rick
Damon
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 04:12 AM
Quote:
- it requires sacrificing three cores,
So, is it perfectly legal to cut and weld steering components?
Will my car pass a mechanical inspection with this steering box and these modifications done?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 04:59 AM
If they red flag that, they would probably already be having a heart attack when they look at the welds holding the steering box and idler arm to the k member.
Posted By: Jeremiah
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 05:36 AM
Quote:
If they red flag that, they would probably already be having a heart attack when they look at the welds holding the steering box and idler arm to the k member.
So true.
Posted By: moparAL
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 05:57 AM
Rick,
Which k members had clearance issues, particularly E-bodies.
AL
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 06:36 AM
Rick,
What kind of assist pressure should be supplied to the new power steering box?
Any benefit to reducing the assist pressure on this box like on the facory units?
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 06:53 AM
Thanks for chiming in Rick. Couple questions; Do you have any plans of fabbing some of those up for sale? Does that coupler eliminate the need to cut the shaft?
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 07:27 AM
in his post Rick says the new pot coupler makes it 100% bolt in for 62 later Mopar install.....
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 07:37 AM
I can read, just trying to clearify. He could have easily meant bolts right in after you cut the shaft....
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 08:06 PM
I have the magazine here in front of me. I read through it a couple of times and checked all the detail pictures .....no mention of cutting the steering shaft.
My only question after reading the article for Rick is what power assist pressure is required to supply the Borgeson box?
Any benefits in knocking my Saginaw power steering pressure output down to the 850PSI range for the Borgeson box, like Rick did with the shims and a factory box ?
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 09:21 PM
Quote:
Rick,
Which k members had clearance issues, particularly E-bodies.
AL
I tried A, B, E. All hit. But the fix was a cinch and they say all henceforth will be fixed.
Rick
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 09:22 PM
Quote:
Thanks for chiming in Rick. Couple questions; Do you have any plans of fabbing some of those up for sale? Does that coupler eliminate the need to cut the shaft?
Me? No. But my local shop will do it for $75 (you send a pot body and the splined piece).
Then it is a 100% bolt in, and 100% reversible.
Rick
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 09:24 PM
Quote:
Rick,
What kind of assist pressure should be supplied to the new power steering box?
Any benefit to reducing the assist pressure on this box like on the facory units?
Since it uses a rack-type valve, I don't think the pressure is critical.
Rick
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/04/13 09:39 PM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me? No. But my local shop will do it for $75 (you send a pot body and the splined piece).
Then it is a 100% bolt in, and 100% reversible.
Rick
Thanks!
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/05/13 03:06 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Rick,
What kind of assist pressure should be supplied to the new power steering box?
Any benefit to reducing the assist pressure on this box like on the facory units?
Since it uses a rack-type valve, I don't think the pressure is critical.
Rick
Thanks Rick.
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/05/13 07:14 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Rick,
Which k members had clearance issues, particularly E-bodies.
AL
I tried A, B, E. All hit. But the fix was a cinch and they say all henceforth will be fixed.
Rick
Rick:
That really speaks volumes of how little Research and Development has been put into this ABORTION.
Since you avoided my question Rick, you probably have no clue that welding on steering components is a big No-No. So, here it is, in black and white and in all places: the Borgeson site. The last sentence of the first paragraph sums it up perfectly.
First paragraph.
Posted By: mopardamo
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/05/13 08:54 AM
That was specifically talking about steering joints. It went on to talk about grease, needle bearings, yolk and seals to confirm the subject of the discussion. Each paragraph discussed specific parts/components. I do not think is was meant to be used indiscriminately
Damon
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/05/13 04:25 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Rick,
Which k members had clearance issues, particularly E-bodies.
AL
I tried A, B, E. All hit. But the fix was a cinch and they say all henceforth will be fixed.
Rick
Rick:
That really speaks volumes of how little Research and Development has been put into this ABORTION.
Since you avoided my question Rick, you probably have no clue that welding on steering components is a big No-No. So, here it is, in black and white and in all places: the Borgeson site. The last sentence of the first paragraph sums it up perfectly.
First paragraph.
As far as clearance: It was minor, and depends on the K-member stamping. I can see why they didn't catch it. No biggie.
As far as welding: Agreed. I, too, would MUCH rather have a one-pc. cast housing. However, with the quantities that they'd sell (in Mopar version), that would make it a non-starter. These guys have been welding cast steel for decades and have it down to a science -- I witnessed their procedure. The welds appear to be way stronger than necessary.
I'm gonna try to get a bare housing (w/welds) and try some destructive tests. If this happens, it will be unscientific -- I'll smash with hammer, press, etc. If the casting breaks before the welds, I'll call it good.
I haven't read any state statutes (NY has none), but I'd be willing to bet that the intent is to discourage / prevent linkage welding. Many Mopars have, OEM, welds in the column, K-member mount, etc.
If you are referring to the coupler sleeve weld, it is also press fit and could easily be pinned, thru-screwed, etc. Since is is only used with P.S., there's little stress on it anyway.
Rick
Posted By: moparx
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/06/13 01:30 PM
look at a late model[example :K car/minivan] steering shaft sometime. the ujoint body is welded to the shaft from the factory. i don't have any concerns about that weld breaking and i drive my "bus" every day. we all know how crappy factory welds can be........
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/06/13 02:58 PM
Quote:
look at a late model[example :K car/minivan] steering shaft sometime. the ujoint body is welded to the shaft from the factory. i don't have any concerns about that weld breaking and i drive my "bus" every day. we all know how crappy factory welds can be........
Hmm, the u joint isn't welded to the steering shaft on any late model I own.
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/06/13 03:14 PM
Don't let the inspection bureau know your car is welded together they might impound it.
All this
about what might happen because a part is modified sounds like Chicken Little crying the sky is falling.
Posted By: moparx
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/06/13 03:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
look at a late model[example :K car/minivan] steering shaft sometime. the ujoint body is welded to the shaft from the factory. i don't have any concerns about that weld breaking and i drive my "bus" every day. we all know how crappy factory welds can be........
Hmm, the u joint isn't welded to the steering shaft on any late model I own.
i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is how the shaft is connected to the joint. this pic is of an unmolested phone co. B van, but the Kcar/minivan is similar. the aluminium [2 dissimilar materials make up the joint yokes 
] yoke joins the box splines.
.jpg "7535119-pic100(Small).jpg")
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/06/13 08:23 PM
Thank-you, Rick, I really appreciate your response.
Quote:
[As far as welding: Agreed. I, too, would MUCH rather have a one-pc. cast housing.
Flaming River has this power steering in 12, 14, and 16:1 ratios. All brand-new components and dedicated casting, these Guys are with the program.
$150.00 cheaper than the Borgeson butcher-job and would require the same amount of fabrication to make it work.
It would'nt hurt to send them a few requests do a Mopar version of this box, after all, they have already done the manual box. If they built it, I'd buy it.
Fast-ratio power steering.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/07/13 12:27 AM
Quote:
Thank-you, Rick, I really appreciate your response.
Quote:
[As far as welding: Agreed. I, too, would MUCH rather have a one-pc. cast housing.
Flaming River has this power steering in 12, 14, and 16:1 ratios. All brand-new components and dedicated casting, these Guys are with the program.
$150.00 cheaper than the Borgeson butcher-job and would require the same amount of fabrication to make it work.
It would'nt hurt to send them a few requests do a Mopar version of this box, after all, they have already done the manual box. If they built it, I'd buy it.
Fast-ratio power steering.
Awesome! I will see if I can light a fire under them...
Rick
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/07/13 12:31 AM
It would be nice to know if the Flaming River box offers the same or improved performance/feel improvement over the Firm Feel Stage III piece as the Borgenson unit does.
Posted By: BirdinPieces
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/07/13 01:04 AM
Quote:
It would be nice to know if the Flaming River box offers the same or improved performance/feel improvement over the Firm Feel Stage III piece as the Borgenson unit does.
If it was designed the same way (engineering wise) as the Borgeson box, it should be similar.
Posted By: sublimehemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/07/13 08:21 AM
hi rick can you post the name and number of the machine shop that modifies the steering parts?
thanks
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/08/13 12:03 AM
Quote:
It would be nice to know if the Flaming River box offers the same or improved performance/feel improvement over the Firm Feel Stage III piece as the Borgenson unit does.
I believe the Flaming River box is manual only. The Borgeson box is an adaptation of GM parts into a MoPar and is power, only. Not sure you can compare the two. The FF Stage III box has the benefit of fitting without mods and looking correct if that matters. Not to mention cheaper. Dunno if the "differences" between the Stage III and the Borgeson unit matter enough to account for the issues and costs involved.
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/08/13 12:54 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Thank-you, Rick, I really appreciate your response.
Quote:
[As far as welding: Agreed. I, too, would MUCH rather have a one-pc. cast housing.
Flaming River has this power steering in 12, 14, and 16:1 ratios. All brand-new components and dedicated casting, these Guys are with the program.
$150.00 cheaper than the Borgeson butcher-job and would require the same amount of fabrication to make it work.
It would'nt hurt to send them a few requests do a Mopar version of this box, after all, they have already done the manual box. If they built it, I'd buy it.
Fast-ratio power steering.
Awesome! I will see if I can light a fire under them...
Rick
I was going to order a Borgeson but I will wait your feedback on this one first 
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/08/13 05:52 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Thank-you, Rick, I really appreciate your response.
Quote:
[As far as welding: Agreed. I, too, would MUCH rather have a one-pc. cast housing.
Flaming River has this power steering in 12, 14, and 16:1 ratios. All brand-new components and dedicated casting, these Guys are with the program.
$150.00 cheaper than the Borgeson butcher-job and would require the same amount of fabrication to make it work.
It would'nt hurt to send them a few requests do a Mopar version of this box, after all, they have already done the manual box. If they built it, I'd buy it.
Fast-ratio power steering.
Awesome! I will see if I can light a fire under them...
Rick
I was going to order a Borgeson but I will wait your feedback on this one first
Don't hold your breath.
The box pictured above is just a stock Saginaw 600 box for GM applications. It's unmodified to fit speciality applications. So of course it's cheaper, they didn't cut it in half, shorten it, and put it back together.
The 3 of the 4 bolts are used when you put it in an older car application. Or if you are trying to save weight in a racecar, you can cut off the 4th bolt hole.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/08/13 05:00 PM
Quote:
hi rick can you post the name and number of the machine shop that modifies the steering parts?
thanks
Aldo's Automotive Precision
3260 Us Highway 9W
Highland, NY 12528
(845) 691-8222
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/08/13 05:44 PM
Quote:
Quote:
This is the reason why the Mopar community is abandoned by the aftermarket, all the pissin and moaning.
Really? I've NEVER heard a vendor use that as a reason. Generally, vendors are in business to MAKE MONEY. They'll sell to the Studebaker crowd if there's a business case to support it. And the lack of a good Mopar business case (lower volumes) has always been the reason I have heard for less support Vs. GM or Ford.
And to be honest, I always felt that this lack of comparative aftermarket support made the Mopar crowd a hardier, more self sufficient bunch Vs. those who can simply order a whole car via the mail (say, the '65 Mustang for instance).
There is no money from the mopar community because they are 
about doing anything that is not a true bolt in , look at Kiesler , to appease the mopar owning they come out with a kit that is a compromise and it screws up the drivline angle , then the cry because of the mess they are left with for their 4.5 k ... ... .
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/08/13 10:51 PM
has anyone used this box yet with the fast ratio pitman/idler arm?
Posted By: sublimehemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/09/13 04:09 AM
thanks for posting rick ... just ordered a box with summit code
Posted By: sublimehemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/12/13 07:05 AM
the summit price now for borgeson box is $711.55
im so happy i ordered mine the other day when it was 640 plus 10% off i ended up paying $576.36
i knew it was good value....now everyone here is going to really complain again..lol...
i also picked up the current issue of mopar action..thanks again for the nice write up rick but have a question...how big were the front tires and what was the back space on the vehicle that was installed on? you mentioned it will rub with big meats...and i wonder if installing one of the aftermarket disc brake kits that widen the front track width slighty would solve the over-steering problem of the new box with big front tires....also if running the new pro touring pan from milodon like i am we might have problems with the idler arm smacking the pan??can this box be modified for limiters???
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/12/13 09:52 AM
Quote:
the summit price now for borgeson box is $711.55 im so happy i ordered mine the other day when it was 640 plus 10% off i ended up paying $576.36 i knew it was good value....now everyone here is going to really complain again..lol...
i also picked up the current issue of mopar action..thanks again for the nice write up rick but have a question...how big were the front tires and what was the back space on the vehicle that was installed on? you mentioned it will rub with big meats...and i wonder if installing one of the aftermarket disc brake kits that widen the front track width slighty would solve the over-steering problem of the new box with big front tires....also if running the new pro touring pan from milodon like i am we might have problems with the idler arm smacking the pan??can this box be modified for limiters???
damnit why the up in price??? i knew i should have bought it 
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/12/13 11:55 AM
Quote:
damnit why the up in price???
Probably as an expected 'Customer Service phone-costs compensation' for the whining Moparts-members
Posted By: BrianShaughnessy
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/12/13 02:34 PM
Quote:
.how big were the front tires and what was the back space on the vehicle that was installed on? you mentioned it will rub with big meats...
69 Road Runner ( Bold Beeper ). 245/40/17 on 17x9 Hot Wheels 0 offset. 70 K member with AR Engineering Viper conversion with 11.75 rotors.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/13/13 12:27 AM
Quote:
Quote:
damnit why the up in price???
Probably as an expected 'Customer Service phone-costs compensation' for the whining Moparts-members
lol I was gonna order one at the end of the month but not at the new price 
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/13/13 04:46 PM
I feel like an idiot for not pulling the trigger during the 10% sale now. I'd get mine from Bergmann now.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/13/13 04:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Thank-you, Rick, I really appreciate your response.
Quote:
[As far as welding: Agreed. I, too, would MUCH rather have a one-pc. cast housing.
Flaming River has this power steering in 12, 14, and 16:1 ratios. All brand-new components and dedicated casting, these Guys are with the program.
$150.00 cheaper than the Borgeson butcher-job and would require the same amount of fabrication to make it work.
It would'nt hurt to send them a few requests do a Mopar version of this box, after all, they have already done the manual box. If they built it, I'd buy it.
Fast-ratio power steering.
Awesome! I will see if I can light a fire under them...
Rick
Left 2 very detailed messages for their marketing guy...no call back so far (been a few days). Doesn't look good, I may try one more call, giving them the benefit of the doubt (vacation?)
RIck
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/13/13 05:18 PM
Thanks for going to bat for all of us, Rick.
I'm staying positive on this because they brought the manual box to market. The number of views on this thread and the content of it presents a pretty strong case for Flaming River.
Perhaps they could get you to work "in-house" with them on this..........
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/15/13 01:08 AM
Quote:
Thanks for going to bat for all of us, Rick.
I'm staying positive on this because they brought the manual box to market. The number of views on this thread and the content of it presents a pretty strong case for Flaming River.
this..........
Just looking at how fast Summit were to increase their price it must be because there is a buzz after Rick's article and this thread... Another proof that there is demand
Posted By: sublimehemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/15/13 09:59 AM
this place has them for 649.99
http://www.performanceonline.com/Borgeson-Universal/summit should be able to beat this with the price guarantee..
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/15/13 09:18 PM
hey rick in your article you mention you got the powersteering lines from borgeson that are metric on the box end and hooks up to our saginaw pump, do you have the part # of these lines?
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/17/13 05:47 AM
Quote:
this place has them for 649.99 http://www.performanceonline.com/Borgeson-Universal/
summit should be able to beat this with the price guarantee..
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/18/13 05:45 PM
TC -- moving back a little on your statements about the GoodGuys events and Mopars/bountys, etc, back about 2010 the GoodGuys held an event at Chicago/Joliet Rt. 66. Well, John Sandberg came with his SCCA Solo C/Prepared race AAR... and, although he was allowed to take runs on their mini-autocross course, and having his race slicks just as he'd typically compete with his car at any SCCA Solo/autocross... John's AAR set Fastest Time of Day... each day of FRI-SAT-SUN... and he allowed many people to ride along as a passenger... everyone was exstatic who ran in his car... he was the most popular car in that event the entire weekend!... and Popular HotRodding mgzn placed a photo and small blurb about his awesome car into their magzn coverage on that event. The Fords/GMs were in awe as they watched with envy! One of these years I'll take my T/A to their event (having 200 tread wear tires as that's the minimum allowable) and see what I can show them!.. the fastest cars at those events typically all have the minimum tread wear ratings of ~200... as that's a key/critical factor in their competition for anyone to place high.
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/22/13 02:16 AM
Quote:
this place has them for 649.99 http://www.performanceonline.com/Borgeson-Universal/
summit should be able to beat this with the price guarantee..
That's only if Summit has it in stock and they don't!
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/22/13 03:39 PM
Mitch, I hear ya.
IF I get my engine together and IF I can get it installed and hooked up and operating, then I may try to hit the Goodguys show in my area this year. I already know a number of chivvy guys that have been talking smack about it, so even though my car is ugly, I'm really trying to get it out this year.
Posted By: astjp2
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/22/13 06:43 PM
Has anyone installed the Borg box and checked it for bump steer? The chassis manual allows us to shim the box to fix bump steering issues but I was wondering if Borgensen actually builds up the new housing to duplicate the original or if they just weld it and hope for the best.
Tim
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/22/13 07:17 PM
Quote:
Has anyone installed the Borg box and checked it for bump steer? The chassis manual allows us to shim the box to fix bump steering issues but I was wondering if Borgensen actually builds up the new housing to duplicate the original or if they just weld it and hope for the best. Tim
Why would they precision machine and weld up the box to put it in the wrong location? They build lots of other direct replacement modified boxes. It's not a new company.
I know that may seem like an assumption. And stranger things have happened in this industry. But I think if it was off Ehrenburg would have noticed it.
Posted By: astjp2
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/22/13 07:39 PM
I was just looking at where they added the new mount to the box, if its not the same as the original box, there might be some issues in getting the box and pitman in the same plane as the factory box. Even the factory boxes needed shims in some circumstances because of K-member variations. Tim
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/24/13 12:30 PM
Quote:
I'll reward inovation for something I need, especially if it saves me time, money, modifying my original parts, or all of the above, and will be the first in line to buy from the first guy who comes to bat with something complete. Such as in this case, a true bolt in no modification steering box upgrade. Offer a ready to use no welding or steering column modification required bolt in coupler, a bolt in box with no clearance grinding required, all of the appropriate hoses and fittings (and even pump if required) credit card in hand awaiting the call.
I am making the modified couplers now and I'm a Borgeson dealer if anyone is interested. PM sent to Scott.
Posted By: roadrunninMark
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/24/13 05:35 PM
What is the price of the new coupler and does one need to supply anything?
Posted By: astjp2
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/24/13 06:04 PM
I know that the mid to late 70's Dodge truckes used a saginaw box with the coupler, maybe you can find one of those to work. I remember rebuilding mine several times years ago. Tim
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/24/13 08:03 PM
If anyone is interested pm me.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 01/24/13 11:08 PM
Ill call you to discuss
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/04/13 03:50 AM
I won't get my box until mid feb - but was wondering has anyone made a high pressure line from this box to the saginaw pump yet?
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/04/13 01:17 PM
Now that I'm done with the couplers I am working on conversion fitting so you can use your original hoses. I will be selling complete packages including boxes that are clearance to fit the K frames.
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/08/13 10:00 PM
Quote:
Quote:
this place has them for 649.99 http://www.performanceonline.com/Borgeson-Universal/
summit should be able to beat this with the price guarantee..
That's only if Summit has it in stock and they don't!
Summit now have the box in stock so I've called them to see if they could match the same price and since the Performance online site does not show the same P/N than Summit they don't want to match the price... This is BS! BTW the guy on the phone was really grumpy...
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/09/13 03:40 AM
Performance online us in violation of the MAP policy - min advertised price. The bs is on the crappy retailer.
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/09/13 03:49 AM
Quote:
Performance online us in violation of the MAP policy - min advertised price. The bs is on the crappy retailer.
According to the law in some states MAP policy isn't accepted as legally binding..
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/09/13 06:00 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Rick,
What kind of assist pressure should be supplied to the new power steering box?
Any benefit to reducing the assist pressure on this box like on the facory units?
Since it uses a rack-type valve, I don't think the pressure is critical.
Rick
Sorry for last post... did not mean to start anythig so back to what really mathers I want to purchase a new PS pump and I can order it pre-set at 1200psi or 850psi... I don't know how to interpret the answer from Rick above, what would you guys use as a starting point?
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/13/13 08:13 PM
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/13/13 08:28 PM
$100 Starting bid? I'm in!
Quote:
If anyone is interested, I've set up the steering box packages and couplers on ebay. The direct fit fittings should be available in about 4 weeks.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261169316013?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261169310569?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/13/13 08:45 PM
Good job! It will be nice to be able to buy a complete kit if I ever put one of these in a car.
Posted By: racealittle
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/13/13 10:44 PM
Quote:
If anyone is interested, I've set up the steering box packages and couplers on ebay. The direct fit fittings should be available in about 4 weeks.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261169316013?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261169310569?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
Sounds great. Can you PM me with a price if I lose the bidding. I am Canadian but shipping is to Detroit area.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/13/13 11:04 PM
Its set up as a buy it now.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/14/13 05:17 AM
Quote:
$100 Starting bid? I'm in!
Quote:
If anyone is interested, I've set up the steering box packages and couplers on ebay. The direct fit fittings should be available in about 4 weeks.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261169316013?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261169310569?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649
parts look great! I'll be buying one from ya - are you selling (or will be selling) A high pressure line from the boregson to the saginaw pump? (not an adapter for the oem lines but a new line with the proper ends that fit on the saginaw and boregson)
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/14/13 12:17 PM
I'll be selling adapters so you can use a stock line.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/14/13 05:06 PM
Quote:
I'll be selling adapters so you can use a stock line.
I'm converting to ps from a manual car so I have no stock lines - do they have the line to go from the boregson to saginaw without the use of adapters?
Posted By: 70moparmike
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/14/13 08:29 PM
anyone put one of these on a 69 b body with tti header's? pic's for clearence. thanks moparts
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 02/14/13 11:29 PM
I'm sorry but no. It doen't make sense for me to make lines for every application when you can buy whatever lines would belong on your car if it has ps. The factory box does the pressure line the same way in most cases where it converts from female thread on the box to male thread. Most factory pressure lines use a female thread on the end of the hose, which is the same as the adapter I'm making.
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/08/13 03:45 PM
Got the Box & modified coupler from Bergman, Good price, Fast shipping and the coupler is extremly well done. Very happy with my purchase.
Unfortunatly I live in Canada so I will need to wait until spring to try it and report here...
BTW, About the price of this box, When you are living outside US like me it would have cost a fortune to pay twice for the shipping of my old HEAVY core to Firm Feel and back to me. So with this box at the end I have a more modern lighter box for about the same price so it was a no brainer for me.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/08/13 04:14 PM
Quote:
Got the Box & modified coupler from Bergman, Good price, Fast shipping and the coupler is extremly well done. Very happy with my purchase.
Unfortunatly I live in Canada so I will need to wait until spring to try it and report here...
BTW, About the price of this box, When you are living outside US like me it would have cost a fortune to pay twice for the shipping of my old HEAVY core to Firm Feel and back to me. So with this box at the end I have a more modern lighter box for about the same price so it was a no brainer for me.
Gives us some feed back when you get it installed. This should be a nice upgrade, just hope it keeps its feel longer than the stock boxes do.
When I last bought a Firm Feel box I called a local scrap yard in their area and had them bring a core to Firm Feel, the shipping from Canada was over $100 at the time.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/08/13 05:12 PM
Ive had this in the car for over 6 months now. No comparison to the stock boxes and I've had them all.
Posted By: BrianShaughnessy
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/09/13 12:09 AM
Quote:
When I last bought a Firm Feel box I called a local scrap yard in their area and had them bring a core to Firm Feel, the shipping from Canada was over $100 at the time.
Wish I'd have thought of that. Shipping a core back from NY cost almost half the $150 core charge.
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/09/13 01:00 AM
Quote:
Gives us some feed back when you get it installed. This should be a nice upgrade, just hope it keeps its feel longer than the stock boxes do.
When I last bought a Firm Feel box I called a local scrap yard in their area and had them bring a core to Firm Feel, the shipping from Canada was over $100 at the time.
Pretty clever! That being said I like restomods so no regrets for the box.
Last year I have upgraded my suspension with Hotchkis parts (except I kept my OE sway bars for now) and I have put 18 inches Mags so the loose in the box became more obvious and almost dangerous so I cannot wait to see the improvement this year, it should complement the suspension upgrade very well!
I only wish someone would have tried to lower the pressure to see if it's providing the same improvement as for the OE box, I guess I will have to be the first to experiment with that.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/13/13 10:06 PM
Well when I get my tax return I will probably pull the trigger. My car is a manual car now and I'm thinkin a circle track pump and reservoir would be lighter and I could use AN fittings and line. Also wonder if I could just collapse the column shaft enough to make it work without pulling the column.
Posted By: sublimehemi
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/14/13 12:52 AM
Quote:
Well when I get my tax return I will probably pull the trigger. My car is a manual car now and I'm thinkin a circle track pump and reservoir would be lighter and I could use AN fittings and line. Also wonder if I could just collapse the column shaft enough to make it work without pulling the column.
well here is what i mustered up...new jones alum racing pump has 6 an on both feed and return....
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/14/13 04:36 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Well when I get my tax return I will probably pull the trigger. My car is a manual car now and I'm thinkin a circle track pump and reservoir would be lighter and I could use AN fittings and line. Also wonder if I could just collapse the column shaft enough to make it work without pulling the column.
well here is what i mustered up...new jones alum racing pump has 6 an on both feed and return....
sick setup you have there!
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/14/13 06:05 AM
Yeah that pic made me forget all about power steering....
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/15/13 02:26 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Well when I get my tax return I will probably pull the trigger. My car is a manual car now and I'm thinkin a circle track pump and reservoir would be lighter and I could use AN fittings and line. Also wonder if I could just collapse the column shaft enough to make it work without pulling the column.
well here is what i mustered up...new jones alum racing pump has 6 an on both feed and return....
Looking good!
Where are those pulleys sourced from?
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/23/13 06:36 AM
This might have already been covered...
How much pressure can the box take? What is ideal? What pressure did the factory boxes this came from run?
I ask because my factory box is now leaking. It's probably the original box with original seals. I'm using a 5.7/6.1 power steering pump now, which might have played a part in my new leak.
I'm thinking a number of guys have successfully run a factory 3G Hemi pump with a factory old school power steering box- anyone have firsthand experience?
If I'm not mistaken the Hemi pump runs up to about 1450 psi.
Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 03/24/13 11:48 AM
I have not checked pressures, but I have run hemi pumps with stock boxes sucessfully. However, the Delphi box has been used in so many modern vehicles that I have to imagine it will be fine with a variety of pumps without issue.
Posted By: Slider
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 04/03/13 07:35 PM
Sorry I am late to this dance! I just saw this, and have not read the article(s) yet. (It is doubtful that I will be able to, given how much time has passed.) But, can anyone tell me the advantage of the Borgeson steering box over, say a Firm Feel Stage III box? Weight, or something more?
Thanks!
Posted By: 1_WILD_RT
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 04/04/13 02:00 AM
Some weight savings, more room for headers, the ratio is slightly quicker, but mostly improved feel... You now how much better the Firm Feel stage III is than most reman boxes? Well the Borgeson box is about the same kind of improvement over the Firm Feel box.... I still haven't bought one, I've driven enough new GM stuff to know how good the box feels so I'm still planning to do it, just haven't yet... Spring is here & I've already got to many parts to install with not enough time....
Posted By: Slider
Re: Borgeson steering box install by Rick Ehernberg - 04/05/13 12:02 AM
Guess I will check them out a little closer, then!
Thanks, Randy!