Moparts

Firm Feel sector support kit.

Posted By: MoparMarq

Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 06:24 AM

Had to take my box to Dick to fix a leaky seal on the sector (cross) shaft. Since the pitman nut had to come off, might as well get the kit.
Pick up my box (manual) and the rest of the kit.

Directions are sparse, but plain enough. They do state to check EVERYTHING else on your steering system to assure that this isn't simply to cover some other problem up. 'Nuff said.

First thing is to mock it up and see where to drill the holes in the K-frame rail. Now, I don't know about your K-frame, but mine apparently is not a factory-perfect example, even though I had Firm Feel gusset and weld it up and check it. The k-frame does curve and the bracket is flat. Additionally, the k-frame flanges are not super-wide, so positioning the bracket to fit best is limited. This pic shows how the holes ended up where mine fit best, and even then the bracket required some massaging. Enough meat on the one near the edge, and the other one has barely enough on the other side for the washer on the bolt.

Attached picture 7309565-SectorShaft_1.jpg
Posted By: MoparMarq

Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 06:26 AM

This is how the bolts look coming out the bottom side of the k-frame. Clearly the curvature is apparent here.

Attached picture 7309567-SectorShaft_2.jpg
Posted By: MoparMarq

Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 06:33 AM

Here is where it gets interesting. After drilling the holes (I checked the locations twice), the curvature of the k-frame and the angle of the bracket with respect to the axis of the sector shaft combine make for a slight problem. The directions state that the bearing can be swiveled in the housing slightly to compensate for any slight lack of perpendicularity of the bracket to the sector shaft, but this looked a little extreme to me. So I had to massage the bracket a bit to get the correct angle. Additionally,I had to slot the holes slightly to get the sector shaft nut centered over the bearing.

My lack of brake or a decent vise (since my workbench has not built itself yet) necessitated the use of a couple pair of vise grips.

Attached picture 7309576-SectorShaft_3.jpg
Posted By: MoparMarq

Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 06:35 AM

In this pic, you can see the curvature I attempted to put into the bracket to minimize the installation warping when torqued down onto the k-frame. Not pretty, but at least it's under the car.

Attached picture 7309579-SectorShaft_4.jpg
Posted By: MoparMarq

Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 06:41 AM

By this point, my back was getting sore from all the vise grip pulling and tweaking, so I called it good and depended on the slight bearing race/bearing retainer sphericity (is that a word?) to adjust the bearing to perpendicularity to the sector shaft. You can still see the off-kilter of the bearing to the retainer. Fortunately, the bearing itself fits snugly on the sector shaft nut, so keeps itself aligned that way. I was able to check its fit fairly easily by rotating the inner race around the sector shaft nut before tightening the set screws to assure that there wasn't any off-axis load on the bearing.

Attached picture 7309586-SectorShaft_6.jpg
Posted By: MoparMarq

Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 06:48 AM

Done and car back on its wheels. (Cotter pins have been installed where they were missing in earlier pics.) The support is slightly lower than the oil pan, about even with the small aftermarket skid plate on the k-frame. Not as low as the headers, but not nearly as far back either, so shouldn't be a worry. Set screws are facing aft to avoid being boogered up by rocks.

How does it drive? I don't know. About this time, my 6 year old fell off her scooter and was having a meltdown about needing a band-aid on a scrape that wasn't even bleeding. Another reason this car is 8 years in restoration... (I've got an 8 year old, too.)

Sorry, should have mentioned before: '72 Road Runner.

Attached picture 7309594-SectorShaft_7.jpg
Posted By: DynoDave

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 03:03 PM

Thanks for posting this MoparMarq.

I must admit...this thing looks nothing like what I expected. Pictures are worth a thousand words.
Posted By: dart4forte

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 03:12 PM

Quote:

Done and car back on its wheels. (Cotter pins have been installed where they were missing in earlier pics.) The support is slightly lower than the oil pan, about even with the small aftermarket skid plate on the k-frame. Not as low as the headers, but not nearly as far back either, so shouldn't be a worry. Set screws are facing aft to avoid being boogered up by rocks.

How does it drive? I don't know. About this time, my 6 year old fell off her scooter and was having a meltdown about needing a band-aid on a scrape that wasn't even bleeding. Another reason this car is 8 years in restoration... (I've got an 8 year old, too.)

Sorry, should have mentioned before: '72 Road Runner.




I feel your pain. I too have a 71 RR and installed mine several months ago. Not a simple bolt on. The car didn't feel any different.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/27/12 09:28 PM

Quote:

The car didn't feel any different.



I think even Eburg said this wasn't a mod that was going to get a big "seat of the pants" improvement thumbs up, but rather would help minimize other deflection problems when pushed to the limit with big tire and aggressive alignments.
Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/29/12 06:18 AM

I have a spare K member that I welded up several months back. I added the gussets to reinforce the steering box mounts, but have been lazy in doing the k member swap. This sounds like a decent alternative for many people.

Attached picture 7311924-DSCN1111.JPG
Posted By: migsBIG

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 07/31/12 01:24 PM

Thanks for posting that. I was considering this as an upgrade option on my 72' charger plus k-member mods. I have a spare k-member and was going to weld and reinforce it with some FFI parts (fast ratio arm, Stage II box, lower control arm pins) to really help it out. By the discription and requirements of my car, this isn't the part for me. Still, very cool to have that option if your don't/can't pull your k-member.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/17/12 02:27 PM

This whole deal was my idea / design so I guess I should take any barbs. OK!

If you look at how far the sector shaft is cantilevered below the lower bearing, the stock setup basically has to impart lots of stress on the chuck mount. Of course, you can reduce this with gusseting, but even the shaft itself has some flex. The new 3rd bearing cuts that to near zero.

As far as fitment, the K isn't a precision piece, esp. at the pinch-weld area. But a few flatwashers under one or the other end of the bracket (sandwiched) will get everything where it needs to be. The pillow-block-style bearing will self-align - no binding.

The 2 cars I installed the prototypes on went from very visible chuck movement (PS, engine at idle, wheels on ground, turning s/ wheel to and fro about 6") to virtually zero. And it bolts on in 15 minutes.

Rick
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/17/12 04:44 PM

Quote:

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/17/12 11:32 PM

599 ?
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/17/12 11:58 PM

I think you are not understanding Ricks observations, the entire #ucking box moves .100+ " at the lower sector, not just the sector shaft by its self. When the center link only moves 6" +/- that amounts to a lot of drift in the steering. The sector support stops about 90% of the flex the box has at the sector..... These numbers are approximate depending on tire size and wheel alignment.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 12:05 AM

Posted By: astjp2

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 01:07 AM

Every mopar product I have ever owned has had the box flex and some bearing slop, this fixes the problem with little modifications to the system. The offroad guys that have jeeps like mine are doing the same thing. It works and people want to argue with it. Tim
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 01:27 AM

Posted By: Winchester 73

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 06:36 AM

Quote:

This is the first i have heard of bearing slop and that it needs to be corrected. I'll wait and see what others say about this iisue that rick neglected to mention.



wow man theres a lot to getting a mopar to handle!after all the money spnt why not just use a rack and pinion with a custom bar to mount it from frame rail to frame rail ?less lbs less rod ends no idler arm no pitman arm no hollow tie rods.sure seems to me the suspension companies like selling treatment instead of cure under the guise of keeping our cars mor origional and making instals "bolt in"
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 08:08 AM

The rack systems dont really work well in a mopar, a few have tried, not many do the job right. Tim
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 04:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

but even the shaft itself has some flex. The new 3rd bearing cuts that to near zero.

Rick


Its difficult to imagine a sector extending 1.5"?
and 1"+ in diameter, mainly torsionaly loaded, flexing any significant amount, worth correcting. The mounting is another story however, imo. I have read the numerous positive comments others have made, and suspect it offers an improvement. But "sector" flex is not the problem being solved. I do suspect that by using the sector as leverage arm mounting point to negate the oem cantilever sector box design, that this add on fix may now INCREASE actual sector flex. However I can't believe this miniscule increased sector flex, if even measurable, would be a hindrance, and that this likely stops the entire unit from moving a great deal, and is therefore a positive trade off. I guess my biggest complaint is the label "sector support kit" is misleading, it is not as I see it, bracing the sector, but simply using the sector as an effective anchoring point.

Yours truly as always


4.599



The bottom line: Just raise the hood of any muscle-era stock Mopar with the tires on the ground. Move the s/ wheel a few inches CW and CCW. You'll see the flex...it will be very apparent. it doesn't really matter what the source of the flex is (probably 95% K, 5% chuck). Now bolt on the FFI kit. Flex almost totally gone.

Yes, I admit copying this from the truck guys. I even tried to get the truck guys to make the kit before I offered the idea to FFI. I went over all that in the original article.

Rick
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 05:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

but even the shaft itself has some flex. The new 3rd bearing cuts that to near zero.

Rick


Its difficult to imagine a sector extending 1.5"?
and 1"+ in diameter, mainly torsionaly loaded, flexing any significant amount, worth correcting. The mounting is another story however, imo. I have read the numerous positive comments others have made, and suspect it offers an improvement. But "sector" flex is not the problem being solved. I do suspect that by using the sector as leverage arm mounting point to negate the oem cantilever sector box design, that this add on fix may now INCREASE actual sector flex. However I can't believe this miniscule increased sector flex, if even measurable, would be a hindrance, and that this likely stops the entire unit from moving a great deal, and is therefore a positive trade off. I guess my biggest complaint is the label "sector support kit" is misleading, it is not as I see it, bracing the sector, but simply using the sector as an effective anchoring point.

Yours truly as always


4.599



The bottom line: Just raise the hood of any muscle-era stock Mopar with the tires on the ground. Move the s/ wheel a few inches CW and CCW. You'll see the flex...it will be very apparent. it doesn't really matter what the source of the flex is (probably 95% K, 5% chuck). Now bolt on the FFI kit. Flex almost totally gone.

Yes, I admit copying this from the truck guys. I even tried to get the truck guys to make the kit before I offered the idea to FFI. I went over all that in the original article.

Rick



I've seen the kit before and it really interested me. I'm going to throw a runout gauge on the car next time I have it on the drive-on lift.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/18/12 06:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

but even the shaft itself has some flex. The new 3rd bearing cuts that to near zero.

Rick


Its difficult to imagine a sector extending 1.5"?
and 1"+ in diameter, mainly torsionaly loaded, flexing any significant amount, worth correcting. The mounting is another story however, imo. I have read the numerous positive comments others have made, and suspect it offers an improvement. But "sector" flex is not the problem being solved. I do suspect that by using the sector as leverage arm mounting point to negate the oem cantilever sector box design, that this add on fix may now INCREASE actual sector flex. However I can't believe this miniscule increased sector flex, if even measurable, would be a hindrance, and that this likely stops the entire unit from moving a great deal, and is therefore a positive trade off. I guess my biggest complaint is the label "sector support kit" is misleading, it is not as I see it, bracing the sector, but simply using the sector as an effective anchoring point.

Yours truly as always


4.599



The bottom line: Just raise the hood of any muscle-era stock Mopar with the tires on the ground. Move the s/ wheel a few inches CW and CCW. You'll see the flex...it will be very apparent. it doesn't really matter what the source of the flex is (probably 95% K, 5% chuck). Now bolt on the FFI kit. Flex almost totally gone.

Yes, I admit copying this from the truck guys. I even tried to get the truck guys to make the kit before I offered the idea to FFI. I went over all that in the original article.

Rick



I've seen the kit before and it really interested me. I'm going to throw a runout gauge on the car next time I have it on the drive-on lift.



You will be my hero.

I try not to repeat myself, but there is little doubt the add on stiffens the assembly, flex of the shaft and now the newly discovered bearing slop is the meat of my beef.

I suspect the most difficult decision on the run out test will be what to use as a base measuring point, hope at least one of those is on the housing right next to the sector.

Regardless i'll. Hip in on six pack of diet dr pepper.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/24/12 09:55 PM

Quote:

Yes, I admit copying this from the truck guys. I even tried to get the truck guys to make the kit before I offered the idea to FFI. I went over all that in the original article.

Rick




Thanks for clearing that up. The brace was invented about a decade ago by a clever guy named Darin. The problem trying to be solved that gave birth to the idea was death wobble and steering wander on 4x4 Dodge Rams with the mighty Cummins under the hood. The invention was 1st posted on the Turbo Diesel Register back then. Darin was making them for a while, but eventually these guys took over production and marketing -

http://www.solidsteel.biz/

Does it work? Like Richard said, take a look at the sector shaft while turning the steering wheel back and forth with the engine running. It ain't pretty. Will you feel the difference? Yes, but only if you drive fast enough. Just like people who put disc brakes on the rear of their Mopar and say they can't stop any faster, you will only feel the difference when driving on the edge of traction during braking or corning. That only happens during panic stops or on a race track.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/24/12 10:01 PM

Quote:

you will only feel the difference when driving on the edge of traction during braking or corning.



Yea, my rear disks really improved my traction.
Posted By: Lefty

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/24/12 10:15 PM

I'm talking about being able to feel when the rear tires are just on the edge of locking up and being able to modulate the brakes so they don't lock up the wheels. It's easier to do/feel with rear disc brakes vs rear drums.
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/24/12 10:20 PM

Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/25/12 05:24 PM

Quote:

I'm talking about being able to feel when the rear tires are just on the edge of locking up and being able to modulate the brakes so they don't lock up the wheels. It's easier to do/feel with rear disc brakes vs rear drums.



This gets complicated. Bottom line: The Bendix duo-servo setup 99% of us have on the rear was designed, originally, to be heavily self-energizing so medium-weight cars would stop OK w/o a booster. The flip side of this is that they are very difficult to modulate near the max-G "lock point". You really need to be a near-pro to drive (read: threshold brake) these near the limit. There really wasn't a big fade issue, and weight-wise, cheapo disc setups are similar. It was the ease of "near the limit" modulation that finally convinced me to 4-wheel disc on most of my Mopars.

Rick
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/25/12 08:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm talking about being able to feel when the rear tires are just on the edge of locking up and being able to modulate the brakes so they don't lock up the wheels. It's easier to do/feel with rear disc brakes vs rear drums.



This gets complicated. Bottom line: The Bendix duo-servo setup 99% of us have on the rear was designed, originally, to be heavily self-energizing so medium-weight cars would stop OK w/o a booster. The flip side of this is that they are very difficult to modulate near the max-G "lock point". You really need to be a near-pro to drive (read: threshold brake) these near the limit. There really wasn't a big fade issue, and weight-wise, cheapo disc setups are similar. It was the ease of "near the limit" modulation that finally convinced me to 4-wheel disc on most of my Mopars.

Rick



How would you identify a "cheepo rear disc setup" that doesn't modulate well to one that does?
Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/25/12 09:27 PM

"and weight-wise, cheapo disc setups are similar"
Posted By: jcc

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/25/12 09:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm talking about being able to feel when the rear tires are just on the edge of locking up and being able to modulate the brakes so they don't lock up the wheels. It's easier to do/feel with rear disc brakes vs rear drums.



This gets complicated. Bottom line: The Bendix duo-servo setup 99% of us have on the rear was designed, on, and weight-wise, cheapo disc setups are similar. It was the ease of "near the limit" modulation that finally convinced me to 4-wheel disc on most of my Mopars.

Rick



I say this jokingly, blah, blah, blah. Botomline, if your rears are locking up first, your fonts aren' t working hard enough. Any modulation should be of the fronts, and discs shine in THAT. use.
Posted By: Rick_Ehrenberg

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/27/12 02:57 AM

Quote:


How would you identify a "cheepo rear disc setup" that doesn't modulate well to one that does?



I wouldn't! The cheapo ones I'm referring to use Eldo or Exploder calipers, Ford or Cherokee rotors, etc. They generally work fine, they're just no lighter than the drum setups. Either way, the ease of precise modulation is there -- they are dead linear: EG: 2X line pressure = 2X clamping torque.

Rick
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 08/27/12 03:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:


How would you identify a "cheepo rear disc setup" that doesn't modulate well to one that does?



I wouldn't! The cheapo ones I'm referring to use Eldo or Exploder calipers, Ford or Cherokee rotors, etc. They generally work fine, they're just no lighter than the drum setups. Either way, the ease of precise modulation is there -- they are dead linear: EG: 2X line pressure = 2X clamping torque.

Rick



Thank you for clarifying.
Posted By: challenger70

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 02/10/14 06:28 AM

Is this worth doing in addition to the firm feel K-member welding and reinforcement? Dick talked me out of it, but it seems like this might help too.
Posted By: dart4forte

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 02/11/14 08:41 AM

I run the entire Firmfeel setup on my 71 RR. I had a figment issue as well. with the cr sterling box and pitman arm I really didn't feel a differance.
Posted By: floridian

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 02/18/14 07:31 PM

Can this be used with the Borgeson steering box?? Not sure what pitman arm is used on the mopar/borgeson install??
Posted By: dangina

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 02/19/14 04:06 AM

Quote:

Can this be used with the Borgeson steering box?? Not sure what pitman arm is used on the mopar/borgeson install??



any one you want, doesn't need a special one, just make sure you buy a pitman that matches your sector (large or small)
Posted By: floridian

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 02/21/14 03:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Can this be used with the Borgeson steering box?? Not sure what pitman arm is used on the mopar/borgeson install??



any one you want, doesn't need a special one, just make sure you buy a pitman that matches your sector (large or small)



OK, I meant does the Borgeson box use a stock mopar pitman arm or something different..

Per your comment does the borgeson box come with the small and large shaft for the older and newer pitman arms??
Posted By: dangina

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 02/21/14 05:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Can this be used with the Borgeson steering box?? Not sure what pitman arm is used on the mopar/borgeson install??



any one you want, doesn't need a special one, just make sure you buy a pitman that matches your sector (large or small)



OK, I meant does the Borgeson box use a stock mopar pitman arm or something different..

Per your comment does the borgeson box come with the small and large shaft for the older and newer pitman arms??



Yes it uses the stock pitman arm. Comes in both sizes, small and large sector. Just pick the one you want when ordering.
Posted By: Mike Roberge

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 03/21/14 05:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Can this be used with the Borgeson steering box?? Not sure what pitman arm is used on the mopar/borgeson install??



any one you want, doesn't need a special one, just make sure you buy a pitman that matches your sector (large or small)



OK, I meant does the Borgeson box use a stock mopar pitman arm or something different..

Per your comment does the borgeson box come with the small and large shaft for the older and newer pitman arms??



Yes it uses the stock pitman arm. Comes in both sizes, small and large sector. Just pick the one you want when ordering.



Yes, Dick’s selector support does work with the Borgeson box.
I installed one on my ’71 Charger last fall. It bolted up just as if it were connected to a stock Mopar steering box.
Posted By: floridian

Re: Firm Feel sector support kit. - 03/21/14 06:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Can this be used with the Borgeson steering box?? Not sure what pitman arm is used on the mopar/borgeson install??



any one you want, doesn't need a special one, just make sure you buy a pitman that matches your sector (large or small)



OK, I meant does the Borgeson box use a stock mopar pitman arm or something different..

Per your comment does the borgeson box come with the small and large shaft for the older and newer pitman arms??



Yes it uses the stock pitman arm. Comes in both sizes, small and large sector. Just pick the one you want when ordering.



Yes, Dick’s selector support does work with the Borgeson box.
I installed one on my ’71 Charger last fall. It bolted up just as if it were connected to a stock Mopar steering box.



Thanks for the info..