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quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems

Posted By: kilroy

quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/05/12 10:57 PM

Ive been running a home made caltrac system for years after I got tired of bending front spring segments. I never really optimized it but it did work. But it rides tough and Im looking to change the attitude of the car from straight line to high po road car.

I looked up this thread https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Number=5888138 but it was a little ambiguous and now that we have a handing forum I thought I would revive it. So my question is how does a quad shock setup like this http://firmfeel.com/QuadShock_abcefmjT.htm work for cornering and will it help me stop bending front segments if I go away from my 'caltrac' system.

I realize that several mustang styles used them but how about us.

Of course I will fabbing my own stuff but I theories first.

Attached picture 7278830-QuadShocksGB.jpg
Posted By: dangina

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/05/12 11:18 PM

on a different note how about using a coilover with the leafs instead? I had two roadrunners that had the old coilovers (non adjustable) on them and they handled fine. I wonder why no one has matched the new coilovers of today with the leaf spring setup
Posted By: EV2DEMON

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/06/12 12:45 AM

I think a quad shock system can work well if the right shock is used, and you have room to package it effectively. However, I don't really see how it would fix a spring bending issue? A kicker shock can calm the hop effect, but if you're bending the front of the spring regularly, I'd look into other root causes. Is the spring correct for the application, is something causing a bind, etc....

Quote:

I wonder why no one has matched the new coilovers of today with the leaf spring setup



I can't see a single good reason to combine coil overs with leafs other than to provide a band aid to worn out leafs. If your leaf springs are in good shape and have proper rates, there is absolutely no reason to add more spring to the suspension.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/06/12 12:51 AM

Firm Feel has worked on a quad shock setup. Give them a call, I'm sure they can tell you what works.
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/06/12 02:19 AM

Quote:

Firm Feel has worked on a quad shock setup. Give them a call, I'm sure they can tell you what works.



I see that, this is the pick and link I have posted....

BUT I hate being a jackazz and given em a call and pumping them for info when I have no plans on spending money with them . Makes me Feel like a hypocrite freeloader.

Im bending springs up right behind the shackle. No binding, it actually is to free and causing severe spring wrap up on heavy car. Though I have free up about 300lbs from the last time I bent springs.

The only way I know to combat this would be to put more leafs further up, like ss springs, but I dont want a really huge spring rate or body separation.
Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/06/12 02:53 PM

Your loosing alot of tire space with that setup, no? If your have tire hop, look at other areas of the rear suspension first, rather then going to a offroading setup.
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/06/12 03:58 PM

Quote:

Your loosing alot of tire space with that setup, no? If your have tire hop, look at other areas of the rear suspension first, rather then going to a offroading setup.



If done right you could put the second shock up between the frame and the spring or set it up inboard.

What got me to thinking about this was the last issue of mopar action and I thought if good enough for our nascar teams of the past (which were hardly off road setups) what about on a street car.

Attached picture 7279754-nascarwheelhop.jpg
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/06/12 07:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Your loosing alot of tire space with that setup, no? If your have tire hop, look at other areas of the rear suspension first, rather then going to a offroading setup.



If done right you could put the second shock up between the frame and the spring or set it up inboard.

What got me to thinking about this was the last issue of mopar action and I thought if good enough for our nascar teams of the past what about on a street car.

Problem with that was it didnt work and was tried by Trans Am guys back in the day. It causes binding because is doesnt flow well with leaf spring geometry. Im gonna use my pinion snubber until I can afford a 3 link with a Watts.
Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/07/12 01:49 AM

Quote:

...I thought if good enough for our nascar teams of the past (which were hardly off road setups) what about on a street car.



Drum brakes, cast iron rocker arms, heavy pistons, heavy valves, antiquated shocks... were also all good enough for Nascar teams of the past.

Getting a good shock will help big time against wheel hop. Also springs with a thick front segment.

Is this wheel hop only under acceleration from a stop? Basically a drag race start?

I've got Hotchkis road race springs and Bilstein shocks. I don't see any wheel hop: http://youtu.be/TLOrFexa6Fk and back view: http://youtu.be/hfMf9NzpY7E

Maybe barrow a mini cam, video it, and see what's happening down there???
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/07/12 06:36 AM

Nothing now with my home made caltrac, and not so much then as more of a spring bending below front shackle issue. I just thought maybe that would take some of the hit out on the intial and then some out on braking but....

...It looks like what I really need to do is build a spring pack with a couple of spring extending clear to front shackle and tailor the height and rate to something softer.

Was just looking for some real world experience with them.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/07/12 09:06 PM

Quote:

I got tired of bending front spring segments.


Quote:


Im bending springs up right behind the shackle.



Based on these comments, I'd say you've got a big problem with your homemade traction device binding your springs and reaching yield points in the main leaf. Is it really in both ends? If so, you do have major issues. Since you had asked about a cal-trac set up in a handling application some time ago, I think you may have answered your question as to why they aren't real popular.

Myself, I'm not a big fan of the cal-trac/slide-a-link set ups for the simple fact that they are designed to make symetrical (non mopar) springs act more like a asymetrical (mopar) springs. The mopar design is already there so it doesn't need the same type of tuning that a ford or chevy needs. BTW, you know the cal-trac designer is a Ford racer, yes?

Traction shocks may not prevent the damage from occuring, they just slow down the reaction to the load that creates the damage. Ultimately they will eventually run out of travel and the spring will bend again or you'll create a new binding point and bend somethng else.
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 12:36 AM

Kilroy, On your Charger are you running a super stock spring, I ask since you mentioned your going from drag racing to handling.

If you are dump the super stock springs, install an XHD set (I used two left springs to keep the rate same on both sides of the car, handling not drag racing here) Or you can go with some XV, Firm Feel Oval track or Hotchkis leafs out back first.

Dump the cal track deal that is only designed to stiffen up the front segment of the spring for a drag car on launch. It does nothing for handling to stiffen the front segment.

Get a good set of shocks QA1 or Bilstiens seem to be the ones to use.

I installed the XHD (2 left springs) with the Firm Feel adjustable rear leaf hangers with them installed at the 1" lower hole to bring the car down more. Lower CG = better handling.

My old setup was SS leafs, 275/60R15 drag radial tires

New tires all around are 255/50R16's on my 72 Road Runner. Car rides like a dream and I need to get the better shocks I still have them KYB's on the car until I free up some more $$$$. The car road on the street like a 1 ton truck with no load in the bed before now it rides more like a car should..........

Attached picture 7281787-265.jpg
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 01:05 AM

Let me clear up some issues as it seems I have posted illiterately.

I WAS bending springs upward just behind the front hanger, NOT the rear shackle, BEFORE I installed my caltracs. I installed my caltrac to COUNTERACT this bending issue, which it has. Now Im NOT bending springs, but with the caltrac it slams around on the street so I was looking for an alternative. I AM running XHD mopar springs order sometime in the late 90's, NOT ss springs. Though I am running a left and a right (not two lefts which is brilliant by the way).

I hope this clears up some confusion, , and I do appreciate the ideas you all are putting forth. I will probably be implementing them soon in the form of rebuilt spring package and eventually shocks. Ill listen some more if anyone wishes to continue.
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 01:12 AM

What gear, converter and HP are you running with the Charger?

Do you know when you are bending the spring on launch at the drag strip on a prepped track with slicks or?

Has the car ever been hit (accident with frame damage) in the back or any where?

Have you had the car on a 4 wheel alignment rack to confirm everything on the frame wise is straight and true?

Just for comparison the 72 RR above has a 508" sixpack with stage VI heads. Hyd flat tappet cam, 9.5" TC and a 2:94 gear in the 8 3/4" Obviously the XHD springs out back and currently there is NO pinion snubber, (factory or adjustable) or traction device (cal track or slapper bars) in the car.

So far I havent bent a "new" Mexican XHD leaf spring on this car to date. These springs have been on since the end of March this year and put probably close to 500 miles on it now in this configuration.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 05:12 PM


Sounds like it is time to build up our own spring pack.

As a 73, you have dumped all the iso clamp crap?

To build a pack, choose the main leaf you want to run. Align your second leaf so the tip of its front edge is directly under the spring eye of the main leaf. Drill the new mounting hole to match the housing alignment bolt. Align the balance of the pack to similar spacing as it was before as you redrill each leaf to its new position. Add or subtract leafs until you reach a rate you're comfortable with.

If you want to copy the Hotchkis principle, you can cut a single leaf to be square on each end and mount on the top of the main leaf to run from the spring eye area to the axle housing pad.
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 05:42 PM

I forget the 73 had that Iso spring deal here are the parts you need to remove that:

http://www.firmfeel.com/Isodeletekit_b73up.htm

Or just get all the parts used off of a 72 or 71 B body and your good to go.

And these hangars with the shorter length for the stock 22" front segment spring with the 2 different height holes for the front spring eye.
Will get that large B body closer to the ground.
Lower CG = better handling.......

http://www.firmfeel.com/leafhang_b.htm

Then after you get rid of that your rear springs will be exactly like on my 72 and I have not bent my new bought this year Made in Mexico XHD springs yet or build your own......those should not bend
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 09:57 PM

I need to do something quick since my driveshaft is hitting the floor without a snubber. It actually tore a weight off my brand new driveshaft. Not impressed. I think these Hotchkis springs would be fine on a smaller tire that breaks loose easier. My 335s are like glue after first gear which is awesome but not awesome for these springs. So im gonna use a stock snubber with 2 poly bumpers that are 2" tall and about 1.25" from the floor and see how that works.
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 10:26 PM

Ya, the only thing that I havent got rid of are the front iso bushings in the Kmember and those are going out this winter. I hate the front shock selection for the 73 and up car, the shocks are so short. I have even gotten rid of the iso torsion bar holder and welded in old style tbar holders in the trans member so I could get the shorter tbars and better tbar rates that come with them.

In the back I got rid of the iso stuff years ago and, regardless of what controversy there is, I flipped the spring hangers and lowered the car 1.5" give or take (and love it!)

Im now running a 4speed but I was bending springs with an auto, I then switched to a homemade caltrac and a 4speed and have stopped bending but am unhappy with the spring/rear action. I also used to have a stock rear sway on the car when I was bending springs and I will probably be putting it back on soon once I rebuild the spring packs and take the homemade caltrac off.
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/08/12 10:28 PM

Quote:

I need to do something quick since my driveshaft is hitting the floor without a snubber. It actually tore a weight off my brand new driveshaft. Not impressed. I think these Hotchkis springs would be fine on a smaller tire that breaks loose easier. My 335s are like glue after first gear which is awesome but not awesome for these springs. So im gonna use a stock snubber with 2 poly bumpers that are 2" tall and about 1.25" from the floor and see how that works.



I know where you are at. This is how you bend springs

Not laughing at your problem, i know how you feel. I stopped it with my home made caltrac but all posted above.....
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/10/12 02:54 PM

Quote:

I hate the front shock selection for the 73 and up car, the shocks are so short.



Shock trick for these - gusset the bottom of the control arm to box it in. Then hole saw the top of the control arm so it has a large enough hole to pass a shock body through it. Then buy 1st gen Camaro shocks. The lower bar mount of teh Camaro shock can be bolted to the added gusset, the upper bayonet mount fits right into the stock mopar hole. Loads of choices in shocks that way.

The leaf trick I described above is outlined in the Mopar Chassis manual. It is an old trick at making stock length leaf springs provide the same support as a super stock set without going to the shorter length and higher rate that come with SS packs.

If you really want to get gonzo, you can do what the 4x4 guys do and have the second leaf run full length and provide a second wrap around the eyes.
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/10/12 06:56 PM

So if I understand the problem better.......the car under acceleration rotates the axle up like they all do. Since the car is lowered there is no pinion snubber due to clearance issues.

In this config the car rotates the axle too much bending the spring just behind the front hanger.

You added the cal track type bar to the car and now it doesnt bend the springs.Makes sense since this limits axle rotation.

This is wild. I need to check my car over and make sure I am not bending anything as well.

Outside of a pinion snubber a stiffer front spring should hold the axle from rotating too much.

How much room do you have from the bottom of the car to the pinion snubber moynting pad?
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems *DELETED* *DELETED* - 07/11/12 01:20 AM

Post deleted by kilroy
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/11/12 01:23 AM

TC@HP2

thanks for the great idea! I never thought of this and was thinking of ways to extend the top of the shock mount up, BUT this is WAY BETTER!! LOVE IDEAS LIKE THESE. If you happen to have a pic would you please post?

PHJ426,

Just keep watch your springs over time as it took aprx a summer or two for them to bend, one day you will look at them and be suprised.

In fact when I was bending springs I was also running a pinnion snubber aprox 1" from the floor and was wraping the springs up so bad it litterally tore the pinion snubber rubber off the mount! Course I was really pretty hard on stuff on the street but still that was ridiculous. I started to bend my XHD springs but then I made my caltracs and they have sense recovered. I know this seems a little out there but

pedal , break, rebuild , repeat.

So I think I will be building a new spring pack this winter and probably adding the sway bar back on, building new shock mounts.

THANKS AGAIN GUYS, , keepem coming if you think of more.
Posted By: PHJ426

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/11/12 03:54 AM

kilroy,

I will be keeping an eye on this thanks for posting the topic!

How sticky of a tire are you running? And this is just from driving on the roads or were you taking the car to the drag strip on a prepped surface with a really sticky tire?

Ill keep the eyes on them springs as I currently do not think I can fit even a factory pinion snubber in there w/o trimming up the rubber bumper?

Currently the rear gear in my car is pretty tall.. 2:94 so the launches are pretty good considering the gear that is in there.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/11/12 02:13 PM

Quote:

[Email]TC@HP2[/Email]

thanks for the great idea! I never thought of this and was thinking of ways to extend the top of the shock mount up, BUT this is WAY BETTER!! LOVE IDEAS LIKE THESE. If you happen to have a pic would you please post?





I do have a picture of one I did on an F body. I'll post it up later.

You could also extend the top up as well. Use an upper shock mount off an early Falcon or Mustang. They extend about 3" above the inner fender and could be bolted in so they are removable in the future. http://www.mustangdepot.com/OnLineCatalog/Suspension/upper_shock_towers.htm
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/11/12 11:30 PM

Ya know now that I think about it (i was bending springs about 10years ago so forgive my memory) I do remeber I had to cut about an 1.5"-2" off the metal part of the adjustable snubber to get it to fit. Good thing I dont run it anymore.

I was only running street radial, and not sticky ones either BUT I was always brake loading the torque convertor, doing burnouts, and alway at full throttle.

It had a few drag passes on it but not a well prepped track by any means.

I think it was just big and heavy at the time and I think more people probably have bent springs they just dont realize it.
Posted By: kilroy

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/11/12 11:36 PM

Quote:


You could also extend the top up as well. Use an upper shock mount off an early Falcon or Mustang. They extend about 3" above the inner fender and could be bolted in so they are removable in the future. http://www.mustangdepot.com/OnLineCatalog/Suspension/upper_shock_towers.htm



I dont think that will work as slick as bolting in because the upper mount is part of the k-member, not the inner fender like earlier models. I imagine I could fab it in somehow but I like your short shock 1gen camaro shock idea, like you said there will be a billion shock for it then.
Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 07/12/12 01:17 AM

This is the only picture I can find of it. I built this back in the mid 90s on an F body Aspen. I wasn't too diligent about documenting things back then because I was just building hot rods.

Looking at the lower edge of the arm, you can see the shock mounting cross bar slightly protruding from the arm. I added tabs down the edge of the arms, drilled mounting holes for mounting and slide the shock up through the arm, after opening up the hole on the top of the arm.

Attached picture 7288172-aspen11.jpg
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 04/28/13 03:51 AM

Well I had to try something so here is my imitation of a CalTrac for my Dart. My bars are 20" long and 2.5" down from center of main leaf F&R. Heim joint at axle and poly bushing at frame end. Ive been using a snubber about 1.5" from the floor and the lack of up travel sucks. I feel this might be the lesser of 2 evils until I can fab up a 3 link/Watts setup. Here is a mock up pic with a Sharpie circle indicating where the leaf contact bolt will go give or take. First pic is full droop.

Attached picture 7684935-droopcaltrac.jpg
Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: quad shock (anti hop) setups v other traction systems - 04/28/13 04:03 AM

Here is ride height. I was going to mount them in reverse and have them pushing against the frame but it would have had bind during suspension droop.

Attached picture 7684948-compression.jpg
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