Holy Crap! Check this out!

Posted By: DynoDave

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/21/12 05:16 PM

Quote:

With real quick ratio boxes you have to be very carefull when driving on the street and have an emergency manuvour. I have a 12 to one box and had a fool half way across the center line on a blind curve in the hills. If I hadn't been used to the box then I would have been into the bank nose first. It's great for the autocross, but probably way too quick for a real road course.

I nice development indeed!

amxautox has a good point. You would not want it to be too quick of a ratio.

These folks are offering a new Delphi box with a 14:1 ratio, which appears to be the same ratio as the WS6 TransAm box, from what I read.

WS6

What scares me more is the $750 pricetag!

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/21/12 09:01 PM

3.5 lock to lock is the same, ergo ratio is the same.

Posted By: Grizzly

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/24/12 07:06 AM

I don't know what passes inspection in your districts, but a weld on any steering component here is an automatic "fail". Actually, it's serious enough that a welder can have all of their credentials taken away.

Before considering this item, check your local regulations first.

Attached picture 7177281-Untitled.jpg

Posted By: Jjs72D

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/24/12 07:36 AM

Is this thing supposed to be a direct fit for Power OR manual steering columns?
NOT that I am interested. They just failed to mention it in the ad. PLUS, $750...??? You can take a POS from the junkyard, spend $350 for a Firm Feel rebuild, add Fast Ratio idler and pitman arms for another $250, and have 12 to 1 ratio for $100 less.
Jeff

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/24/12 08:22 AM

Quote:

Is this thing supposed to be a direct fit for Power OR manual steering columns?
NOT that I am interested. They just failed to mention it in the ad. PLUS, $750...??? You can take a POS from the junkyard, spend $350 for a Firm Feel rebuild, add Fast Ratio idler and pitman arms for another $250, and have 12 to 1 ratio for $100 less.
Jeff

For only $100 more, IMHO you are getting a brand new box and lighter weight. It's faster ratio than stock. And to some a better all around ratio. Seems like many sporty new cars have around 14:1 steering.

The long arm method doesn't work with certain headers in some cars. No A-body will work with long pitman and headers at all.

Also the Delphi box is lighter. And it's NEW. Not rebuilt.

I heard this was being worked on a 1 1/2 years ago from someone. Glad it came out. Sort of bummer on the price.

I specifically asked Borgeson at the SEMA show last November about adapting a Dephi box to a Mopar... They said they had no plans. But that was just one of the guys in the both. And probably can't show all thier cards.

I think the 3.5 turns lock to lock is mis-information.

Fact is the Dephi box is 14:1. The Mopar box it 16:1

Dephi also makes a 12:1 or around that box. IIRC, it's the same casting/body as the 14:1 box. So that could/should be in the future.

The welding doesn't concern me as much as the what looks to be lack of gussets and support between the plate and the output shaft tube. The regular Delphi boxes have a long output shaft tube.

It's nice that they designed it using the stock pitman (or any stock pitman). That lowers the cost when it wears out needing replacement.

Posted By: HUSTLESTUFF

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 02:09 AM

They reported it as a remanufactured unit.

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 11:02 AM

I wonder how much it will clear the engine in a Dart with a newerstyle Hemi in it.

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 03:46 PM

thats not the only weld either

Posted By: Challenger_Nut

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 04:04 PM

The price is RIDICULOUS!!!!

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 05:45 PM

Quote:

The price is RIDICULOUS!!!!

The fast ratio (12.7:1 vs 14:1) alternative is $100 less (~15%). Also the Delphi unit is much lighter and might give you better header clearance. Lets see one in a car; clearance might be worse. Also the fast ratio alternative will not fit a significant number of cars.

I'd like to see better support between the mounting plate and output housing.

Posted By: Grizzly

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 07:40 PM

Quote:

thats not the only weld either

Yup. Looks like something some backyard mechanic put together with JB Weld after smokin' a big fat Marley. This has to be some kind of a joke.

Happy Birthday there, Big Guy!

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 08:10 PM

Borgeson has been converting boxes for 55-57 Chevies for over twenty years, Mustang boxes for about seven years... Everyone I've known that has bought on has been very happy so I can assure you it's not a joke... I have one of their Mustang boxes in my Falcon, it's the best option available for that application IMO... Likely the Mopar box won't be well received because from what I've seen very few aftermarket upgrades are... If you have a better steering box option spend the money to bring it to market & we'll vote with our wallets...

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 08:15 PM

Delphi is good s##t! I agree, what are your other options? Im glad to see someone ATTEMPTING a better box that bolts in. I guess its better and more cost effective to convert the whole front end over to a rack setup to get power steering and Big Blocks as well as Gen III Hemi to work in A bodies......

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 08:28 PM

Quote:

Borgeson has been converting boxes for 55-57 Chevies for over twenty years, Mustang boxes for about seven years... Everyone I've known that has bought on has been very happy so I can assure you it's not a joke... I have one of their Mustang boxes in my Falcon, it's the best option available for that application IMO... Likely the Mopar box won't be well received because from what I've seen very few aftermarket upgrades are... If you have a better steering box option spend the money to bring it to market & we'll vote with our wallets...

How much did the Falcon box cost you?

What do they retail for?

Posted By: Jjs72D

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 08:59 PM

That picture doesn't show if there is the crucial THIRD bolt position to the left of the sector. Without it, this thing is worthless. It would be nice to see another angle.

Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 09:21 PM

Heres a thought, Why wouldnt a steering quickener work out of say a dirt late model? They are somple and all they do is change the speed the shaft turns versus what your steering wheel is moving. I might see if a budy has one laying around, and see if it will fit.

Posted By: Borgeson

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 09:25 PM

Hey all. Jeff from Borgeson here. I'm not on this forum to directly sell this product as we are well distributed and have enough dealers to do that for us.

I would just like the opportunity to introduce myself and to help answer any questions or concerns on this rapidly developing new product.

The picture above and in the recent press releases and even on our own web site is of a non-functioning pre-production piece. We had to rush this one out to get it entered in new products at a recent trade show. We will have much more information such as dimensional drawings and additional photo's once the production boxes are finished.

The quick details are 14:1 ratio, smaller & lighter with a tight modern feel.

The new box will be welded just as we have done for all the other conversions we offer. This box will also have the crucial third mounting position as required.

Please post up any other technical questions an I will be happy to answer them.

Posted By: 70VcodeCoronetRT

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 09:37 PM

Thanks for the info.

Is this a manual steering only box? Also what is the weight of this box? Thanks again

Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 09:38 PM

Quote:

Hey all. Jeff from Borgeson here. I'm not on this forum to directly sell this product as we are well distributed and have enough dealers to do that for us.

I would just like the opportunity to introduce myself and to help answer any questions or concerns on this rapidly developing new product.

The picture above and in the recent press releases and even on our own web site is of a non-functioning pre-production piece. We had to rush this one out to get it entered in new products at a recent trade show. We will have much more information such as dimensional drawings and additional photo's once the production boxes are finished.

The quick details are 14:1 ratio, smaller & lighter with a tight modern feel.

The new box will be welded just as we have done for all the other conversions we offer. This box will also have the crucial third mounting position as required.

Please post up any other technical questions an I will be happy to answer them.

Thanks Jeff, Nice to have someone with frist hand knowledge of something for once!

Posted By: Borgeson

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 09:51 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the info. Is this a manual steering only box? Also what is the weight of this box? Thanks again

This is a power steering box. The box internally is a 14:1 ratio, this should equate to about 2.75-3 turns lock-to-lock on the car. This will be measured off a production box. The box weighs 25lbs.

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 11:20 PM

Quote:

How much did the Falcon box cost you?

What do they retail for?

I got it through Summit when Summit was having a rare 15% off internet deal... Normally $520ish I paid $450 delivered... They offer a kit for the Mustang with the Steering shaft, hoses, a pump & brackets but since I'm doing a Falcon & the firewall/column is different I'm fabbing what I need... And since I'm doing a 5.0 HO w/EFI I'll be keeping the serpentine drive & the CII pump so I'll make my own hoses & do what I need to do to make it work...

Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/25/12 11:28 PM

The one thing I dont like seeing on anything that has to do with steering are welds. I'm sure you guys tested it, but I dunno.. it shouldn't be there.

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 12:07 AM

Yeah, you can't trust welds.....

Attached picture 7179606-758px-USS_San_Franciso_drydock_Sm_edit.jpg

Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 01:39 AM

Did it hit something? All I'm saying is on certain things I don't trust welds, otherwise I like em

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 02:16 AM

Quote:

Did it hit something? All I'm saying is on certain things I don't trust welds, otherwise I like em

Yeah, it hit an undersea mountain at a depth of 550 feet cruising at 30+ knots..... See the buckled steel behind the guy standing on the catwalk? That's buckled over two feet & there are welds all around it... If any had failed we wouldn't be looking at pictures of it.... If the welder knows what he's doing the weld is as strong if not stronger than the surrounding area... I've looked at the welds on my Borgeson box, they don't look anything like the welds Chrysler used to put these cars together... Closer to what I used to see when I was stationed on the floating drydock shown above...

Posted By: DARTH V8Я

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 02:25 AM

Well I trust your judgment 100%, if you say the weld is good, its good!

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 03:14 AM

Our entire freakin cars are welded together mang......

Posted By: 1_WILD_RT

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 04:30 AM

Quote:

Well I trust your judgment 100%, if you say the weld is good, its good!

I'd say Borgeson is betting their reputation on the fact the weld is good... They've done this a long time, no rookies...

Posted By: Jjs72D

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 04:31 AM

I'm impressed that Mr Borgeson logged on to help.
Jeff

Posted By: astjp2

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 05:21 AM

I am suprised we were noticed! Tim

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 06:32 AM

Quote:

Hey all. Jeff from Borgeson here. I'm not on this forum to directly sell this product as we are well distributed and have enough dealers to do that for us.

I would just like the opportunity to introduce myself and to help answer any questions or concerns on this rapidly developing new product.

The picture above and in the recent press releases and even on our own web site is of a non-functioning pre-production piece. We had to rush this one out to get it entered in new products at a recent trade show. We will have much more information such as dimensional drawings and additional photo's once the production boxes are finished.

The quick details are 14:1 ratio, smaller & lighter with a tight modern feel.

The new box will be welded just as we have done for all the other conversions we offer. This box will also have the crucial third mounting position as required.

Please post up any other technical questions an I will be happy to answer them.

Jeff,

Thanks for repsonding to this market.

Will a 12:1 box be an option or in the future?

Does the projected price come with the hardware (customer to install) to connect our steering columns to it?

Will it run with the Saginaw or Federal power steering pumps that come stock in our cars in terms of pressure and volume.

Are these units rebuilt or new?

Is the pitman shaft 100% new with new gear? Or resplined original/used unit? Or otherwise?

Thanks,

Steve Wall

Posted By: Borgeson

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 02:12 PM

Quote:

Jeff,

Thanks for repsonding to this market.

Will a 12:1 box be an option or in the future?

Does the projected price come with the hardware (customer to install) to connect our steering columns to it?

Will it run with the Saginaw or Federal power steering pumps that come stock in our cars in terms of pressure and volume.

Are these units rebuilt or new?

Is the pitman shaft 100% new with new gear? Or resplined original/used unit? Or otherwise?

Thanks,

Steve Wall

Steve,

Components exist to theoretically create a 12.7:1 box. This may be a possibility in the future pending core component availability.

The steering box comes with hose fitting adapters to be used with OEM Mopar P/S hoses. The column joint is not included in the price but available separately for much less than other Mopar column adapters on the market.

Our power steering box will be compatible with either the Saginaw or federal power steering pumps. For in-house testing and development we always use Saginaw P/S pumps. The Saginaw pumps are easily adjusted for pressure and flow to fine tune the characteristics of the power steering.

I prefer the term "re-manufactured" This steering box is actually constructed with three different production Delphi 600 series power steering boxes. The boxes are completely reworked / re-machined and reassembled with new bearings & seals. It is important to note that the Delphi 600 series boxes that we disassemble as cores show almost no signs of wear on any internal components.

The sector shaft we use is from one of the three Delphi 600 cores. It is shortened, re-splined to either 1.125" or 1.25"and re-threaded.

As with all of our power steering boxes this one will have our 3 year warranty. As to the welding comments there are only two people we trust to weld our steering boxes, they are artists. That coupled with filler material specific to our application has allowed us to produce over 10,000 welded power steering conversion boxes with no issues.

Thanks, Jeff

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 02:19 PM

Are there any dimensional drawings available to compare your steeringbox to the stock powersteering box?

Reason for asking is that besides myseld, a number of folks are looking into installing a modernday Hemi into their Mopar A-body, while retaining powersteering.
Currently, at the driversside, the Hemi's exhaust will interfere heavily with a stock powersteering box.
It would be nice to see if your box provides more space so it won't be necessary to install a rack&pinion system for instance.

Posted By: Borgeson

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 02:37 PM

Quote:

Are there any dimensional drawings available to compare your steeringbox to the stock powersteering box?

Reason for asking is that besides myseld, a number of folks are looking into installing a modernday Hemi into their Mopar A-body, while retaining powersteering.
Currently, at the driversside, the Hemi's exhaust will interfere heavily with a stock powersteering box.
It would be nice to see if your box provides more space so it won't be necessary to install a rack&pinion system for instance.

As soon as the paint dries on the first production run I will capture multiple images at different angles and create a dimensional "drawing" like we do for our other conversions. You can see one here (full sized Ford) www.borgeson.com/imageCD/800115DIM

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 02:57 PM

Sounds and looks good.
Thanks.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 03:00 PM

Quote:

Are there any dimensional drawings available to compare your steeringbox to the stock powersteering box?

Reason for asking is that besides myseld, a number of folks are looking into installing a modernday Hemi into their Mopar A-body, while retaining powersteering.
Currently, at the driversside, the Hemi's exhaust will interfere heavily with a stock powersteering box.
It would be nice to see if your box provides more space so it won't be necessary to install a rack&pinion system for instance.

One of the problems with A-body Hemi conversions is the variation of motor placement. I was a close observer/hand lender in the development of the new TTI A-body Hemi headers that were prototyped from Troy Bray's Hemi Dart.

At the recent Spring Fling show the "off the shelf" A-body Hemi K-member Ed Debevic gave TTI did not put the motor in the correct placement for thier headers. TTI had to make adjustments to that display K-member they currently have with entire front end for mockup.

But I could get measurements from Troy's Dart and could go down to TTI and test fit this new Borgeson box in TTI's mock up/test front end. That would tell the story.

There are so many things going on in 3 dimensions a 3-view drawing I don't think will cover the uber tight fit situations.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 03:07 PM

Id be willing to test fit one with my Big Block Dart. Let me know Borgeson, I gots yous!

Posted By: moparAL

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 07:12 PM

Hello Jeff from Borgeson,

1. You mention your new PS box will be compatible with Saginaw & Federal pumps, Correct? With regards to pressure and flow, is it compatible with the new Saginaw TC style pumps???

2. Your power steering boxes use the standard OEM pitman arms in each application. Say on a E-body big block with aftermarket TTI 1 7/8 headers they will fit and clear with no mods the factory Chrysler PS Box with a standard OEM (NON TA) pitman arm. No mods or clearance problems. Will your PS box and a standard pitman arm in the same car, RB block same motor, and TTI 1 7/8 headers still clear everything with no mods???

3. In my opinion a lot of Mopar car owners that would be interested in your product will have headers and respectfully if you can't answer my earlier question about header compatibility it might be wise to consider sending one of your PS boxes to TTI (probably the largest seller of Mopar aftermarket headers) and see if they can confirm what headers will clear your PS box.

4. Thank You- VERY COOL NEW PRODUCT!

Posted By: Borgeson

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 09:09 PM

Quote:

Hello Jeff from Borgeson,

1. You mention your new PS box will be compatible with Saginaw & Federal pumps, Correct? With regards to pressure and flow, is it compatible with the new Saginaw TC style pumps???

2. Your power steering boxes use the standard OEM pitman arms in each application. Say on a E-body big block with aftermarket TTI 1 7/8 headers they will fit and clear with no mods the factory Chrysler PS Box with a standard OEM (NON TA) pitman arm. No mods or clearance problems. Will your PS box and a standard pitman arm in the same car, RB block same motor, and TTI 1 7/8 headers still clear everything with no mods???

3. In my opinion a lot of Mopar car owners that would be interested in your product will have headers and respectfully if you can't answer my earlier question about header compatibility it might be wise to consider sending one of your PS boxes to TTI (probably the largest seller of Mopar aftermarket headers) and see if they can confirm what headers will clear your PS box.

4. Thank You- VERY COOL NEW PRODUCT!

1. Yes, the TC pump is also easily adjustable for pressure and flow to fine tune it

2. Right now I would say yes. I do want to dimension a production piece compared to a factory Mopar power box and that will provide the final answer. Just did some quick measuring in the QC room. Mopar power = 1.5" from center of sector to edge of casting, Mopar manual= 1.25" from center of sector to edge of casting, Delphi 600= 1.25" from center of sector to edge of casting. The nose (input / valve body) of our box is much smaller than an OEM mopar.

3. I appreciate the info and if it comes down to it we have worked with header manufacturers in the past to verify fitment, no reason to stop now.

4. Thank you & Your welcome!!!

Posted By: Joe Dokes

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 04/26/12 10:01 PM

As others have said this might be an important product for those of us swapping a GEN III Hemi into an A-Body.

To have a good idea if this is going to allow power steering with a GEN III Hemi we need measured drawings of an OEM power box, and OEM manual box, and the Borgeson unit. By comparing all three will have about a 99% understanding of whether this will succeed.

Obviously, we won't know for sure if this is going to fit until we get a the Borgeson unit, a set of TTI headers, and see if we can cram it into an A-Body with a Hemi.

All that being said, based upon the one measurement provide by Borgeson, that the measurement from the center of the sector to the edge of the casting is the same on the Brogeson unit and on the Manual box is VERY encouraging.

I look forward to seeing more pics with dimensions.

Several people have commented on the price. It is a bit pricey, but when one considers the price of a new flaming rive manual box is $500.00, this box, IF if allows power steering with a GEN III Hemi, it will be an important addition to the Mopar aftermarket. Also for the Hemi swap crowd, the Power Steering delete pulley is between $156.00 and $300.00 depending upon the source. So if you had to buy a new box + the pulley your basically at the same price point.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

Posted By: HEMIDOG 70

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 05/01/12 10:04 PM

I'm very interested in these measurements also. I'm real close to having to

on my tti gen2 hemi headers to make it fit. 70 e body 528 hemi. Need a test fittment mule?

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 06/13/12 01:01 PM

Any updates on this steeringbox?

Or did I read the release-date wrong?

Posted By: Joe Dokes

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 10/01/12 08:47 PM

Here's a dimensioned drawing from Borgeson.

I don't have a manual box handy, so I don't know how it compares to a factory manual box.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

Attached File

7402517-BorgesonPSBox.pdf (147 downloads)

Posted By: sbhpcb

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 10/01/12 09:44 PM

JEFF I wonder if this Gear box is compatable wth the stock late model Hemi Power steering pumps? This would help greatly as I understand that is 1 item folks are having to work on (spend Money)is that the Stock Late model 5.7 Hemi Power Steering pumps have a high operating PSI? That is not compatable with the stock Gear boxes.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 10/02/12 06:22 PM

Quote:

JEFF I wonder if this Gear box is compatable wth the stock late model Hemi Power steering pumps? This would help greatly as I understand that is 1 item folks are having to work on (spend Money)is that the Stock Late model 5.7 Hemi Power Steering pumps have a high operating PSI? That is not compatable with the stock Gear boxes.

Those are the TC pumps he was referring to a few posts above.

Posted By: dart4forte

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 10/02/12 07:33 PM

Quote:

Yeah, you can't trust welds.....

That sub hit an undersea mountain. The welders who build ours subs are probably the best in the world.

Posted By: Joe Dokes

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 10/02/12 08:01 PM

As I recall, various pumps put out differing amounts of pressure. Most Mopar boxes put out between 900 PSI and 1300 PSI, the higher the PSI the less effort it will take to turn the wheel. Great at low speeds but at high speeds this leads to less "road feel."

Big Block Dart has an article on the various pumps and pressures used by Mopar. You can read the article here:

http://www.bigblockdart.com/techpages/pspumps.shtml

Most GM pumps put out between 800 PSI and 1000 PSI, thus if you have a mopar box with 900 PSI you're probably pretty close, though the steering might be a little lighter.

If the steering is too light, or you wish to be able to adjust the level of effort in your steering, you can install an adjustable power steering valve from Heidts Hot Rods.

You can find it here:

http://www.heidts.com/steering_kits_components.html

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Joe Dokes

Posted By: moparAL

Re: Holy Crap! Check this out! - 10/02/12 08:22 PM

When I talked to Borgeson months ago as I remember they tested it in the shop with a GM TC pump and then tested it in a early Charger on the road. Thanks Joe Dokes for the info on the adjustable valve.

Holy Crap! Check this out!