430" small block build

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I bought a R block last year to build a Big Inch small block, but after talking to RyanJ on what I had. At this point I will be going with a stock block build. Since I have a 9.20" 59 degree 48 babbit cam tunnel block with a 3.990 hone finish bore.
What happened with that R3 block was Mopar line bored the cam tunnel in those 59* Siamese bore 9.20" R3's accidentally oversize to the 48 degree dimension.... the problem with that is no camshaft core ever existed for a 1.998" journal on all 5 cam journals AND 59 degree lobe spacing & bank angle. Basically what I'm telling you is there is no camshaft you can buy to install in your bock.

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The only thing i dont like is that much stroke,after taking a buddys 445 sbf apart you can see the small end on the rod bushing was getting bet to death[you can see by eye how bad one side is wore ]to much side loading. he is going back to a 4 inch stroke

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Well so much for ford junk, thought this was about small block mopars.

Ive several strokers from 410s to a hair over 450 inches, have not noticed any rods issues on inspection and they often see over 7k.

More and more we will see the 4 plus stroke cranks as common as the 4 inchers.

40Ford can fill folks in on what an X block will take or just read some of his postings, its pretty clear you can knock the sides out of anything if you try hard enough.

But other then some cast crank posts I dont see many small blocks, oem or afterm, X R with there guts spit out as we do so many stock block BB motors.

Dont see how a small block ford plays into this, the small block stroker has proven itself as a good solid combo. And im sure Dave knows the right people to get it done.

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Well so much for ford junk, thought this was about small block mopars.

Ive several strokers from 410s to a hair over 450 inches, have not noticed any rods issues on inspection and they often see over 7k.

More and more we will see the 4 plus stroke cranks as common as the 4 inchers.

40Ford can fill folks in on what an X block will take or just read some of his postings, its pretty clear you can knock the sides out of anything if you try hard enough.

But other then some cast crank posts I dont see many small blocks, oem or afterm, X R with there guts spit out as we do so many stock block BB motors.

Dont see how a small block ford plays into this, the small block stroker has proven itself as a good solid combo. And im sure Dave knows the right people to get it done.

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All i did was put out a comment on a similar combo that i have personal seen. i also have two 4 inch motors right now but have not been together long engough or torn down to see what things look like.i dont think i will ever go bigger than a 4 inch stroke.

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as far as the ford junk comment there is nothing in it thats ford , dart block callies crank gas ported pistons and so on. car went 9.50s na and 5.70s on spray. i think it had a 4.100 stroke and a 4.155 bore
i think.6.200 on rod length.

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How much spray and does anyone think that could be a contributor to the condition?

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4+ inch stuff I typically won't spray or boost, side loading increases with cylinder pressure regardless of stroke or rod ratio so (obviously IMO) if you have long stroke short rod combo it's a little harder on the block with your normal cylinder pressure.

I like the 4+ inch motors when I'm looking for a true Big block 'behind the wheel' experience and where you run good (but not necessarliy "great") heads that limit the RPM (and more importantly piston speed) to a moderate (5800-6200 ish) range.

If you're boosting or spraying, I keep the stroke shorter and the rods longer, if I'm looking for a dual/purpose motor with Longevity. That said the +4 stuff works very very well on the street when set up for the purposes I described above. Torque motors are sweet on the street!

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4+ inch stuff I typically won't spray or boost, side loading increases with cylinder pressure regardless of stroke or rod ratio so (obviously IMO) if you have long stroke short rod combo it's a little harder on the block with your normal cylinder pressure.

I like the 4+ inch motors when I'm looking for a true Big block 'behind the wheel' experience and where you run good (but not necessarliy "great") heads that limit the RPM (and more importantly piston speed) to a moderate (5800-6200 ish) range.

If you're boosting or spraying, I keep the stroke shorter and the rods longer, if I'm looking for a dual/purpose motor with Longevity. That said the +4 stuff works very very well on the street when set up for the purposes I described above. Torque motors are sweet on the street! Imagine a blueprinted 440 six pack....but with an 1850G bobweight and 100+ less poundage on the nose

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Thats why you dont see mopars at headsup events, you have to be willing to run stuff hard.most mopar guys are happy with high 10 sec 4 inch motors. i have come to find that over 4 inch is hader on parts.my indy headed 408 dont even come alive till over 5500. also the lack of head choices out there for that many cubes.where iam my car is the slowest and it runs 126 1/4 mph and drive it all the time.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kht95C3vO4

The great equilizer

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THAT was a bang !

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Devilbrand,

The decision for a strokeer motor to me is where you're looking for broad mid range and a target horsepower, if you want say right around 500 hp with a sub 6000 rpm peak, it's very easy to achieve. The essence is you're using moderate piston speed through the mid range (where you're not over stressing the block) with a goal of not spinning it up to high (because you don't have to).

A 4.25 arm spinning 6000 rpm has the same piston speed and about the same airflow as a 340 spinning 7700 rpm. the way I build em with say 270-ish cfm heads Both can easily make over 500 hp....but which one would be a better 'real world' better driver? And which one gets to use up 500hp worth of head flow (or closest to it) more often in real dual purpose driving? Which one can pull away and roll-on in any gear at any throttle position?

strokers spinning way up high is like winding a car out past it's power peak, the motor still gains RPM....but it's out of the sweet spot....with a long stroke and the right cam the sweet spot is so broad you don't really have an urge to wind it up tight. BTW I consider durable to go at least 30-40K miles of whatever I want to throw at them, that's a lot of miles for a "toy" and they'll no doubt go further, but I'm gonna be bored by then and want to swap in something else by then.

Another key point, with 4+ " small block stroker torque motors I actually deliberately slightly undercam the motor so as the power naturally falls off right around 5800 or so, after torque peaks the VE (pumping efficiency and rpm gain per sec) naturally starts to fall off as well, so I kind of build-in my rev limiter so to speak.

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Thank you for the detailed answer!

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Bobby you have way more exp them me, and not to go to far off topic, but I see your reference to 30 40k miles, and I guess your talking a wide lobe sep cam and a semi long service life. Far from a race motor.

Using alot of dur 280-s and at 106 we are still pulling after 7k so why not use it if the heads support it, what is wrong with rpm if the heads/setup supports it and many are running there strokers past 7k.

Are you leaning more towards a 30-40k daily driven motor in that thinking vs somthing that gets tore down every couple years or when needed??? Another member here just tore his stroker apart after a year of abuse at 7k plus only to find no issues.

Im asking this trying to learn, not be a smartazz. I just dont understand why I want to shift at 6k when im still making power to 7k as many are doing? Is alot of it for longer life? Im just a bit confused, your talking 30-40k mile build in the race section.

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with quick77, who's talking about 500hp street motors? you can't tell me large ci SB with good heads wont make more hp. and capeable of higher rpm

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Kht95C3vO4

The great equilizer

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i dont think it was the 4" crank that went boom

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I am also considering a 4.125 crank for my fully ported SB edddie heads. What I'd like to know is would it be cost effective to replace my 4" crank 10:1 motor with a 4.125 crank and 11.5 motor? The heads aren't ideal, but would they still build more HP on a bigger CI motor? The extra compression and cubes will allow for a bigger cam. My hydraulic roller is all done at 6000RPM anyway. In my mind, a 40-50HP bump would justify the expense. I just don't know if we're at the law of diminishing returns with the eddies and these big cranks.
Tom

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But to stay on track, any cam info on this motor Dave????

Seems like alot of nice parts for a big power build, can you share your thoughts on what you want the end result to be?

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I switched from fully ported eddys to w-2s on a 421cu in,went from 10.70s to 10.50s.This was a batten w-2 made rectangular port real nice head,bought used already ported, was told they flow 305cfm at .600 never had them checked.Not impressed with that set up.So I then switched to 360-1 245cnc heads and went to a 9.97.This was a little less compression because the indys had a larger camber then the battens.This all was on the same shortblock with the same cam.

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BobR,

tell me more about your junk

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BobR,

tell me more about your junk

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care to comment on the side loading - side discussion here then?

dealing with the long stroke at almost 10 grand has to show you alot if there was an issue.

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care to comment on the side loading - side discussion here then?

dealing with the long stroke at almost 10 grand has to show you alot if there was an issue.

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You guys are talking about a 4.25" stroke. We couldn't put that much stroke in our Ford motor due to rod to cam clearance. Read that we don't have enough. We have to slightly grind the big end of the rods for 4.09 stroke.

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Bob, on other forums I've commented (and questioned) the combination of this low rod to stroke ratio on this package in regard to ring seal and ultimately life span... Any comment on a 1.3 compression height and 1.5 R/S? My assertion is that it should be expected to live a shorter life than a 4" arm and that the gain in power for that little more stroke isnt worth the expense.

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while i wont comment on the CH, RS ratio or any balancer issues ( LOL) I will tell you that I put the BPE crank, Pistons and compstar rods together cheaper then a 4" stock mopar rod sized combo - rod's pistons come with pins and rings and it was in fact cheaper then a standard 4" stroker combo.

OK - Whew - what a long day yesterday was - went to the machine shop for about 4 hours yesterday and got the following information:

Block - Sonic'd out good and magged good - .400+ on the thrust sides ( X block) and mostly 200 - 300 on the other sides of the cylinders.

after the steel shot machine the thing looks good as new -

Before :


After:




On to the Crank -

We checked a number of things to determine the overall quality and condition of the crank. - all measurements were taken at 62 degrees F

1 - straightness - .001
2 - OD of the Mains - 2.4998
3 - OD of the rod journals - 1.9995


4 - Taper of rods and mains - ( worst one ) .0002
5 - Out of round - NA
6 - OD of the snout ( to fit balancer later ) 1.532
7 - Stroke - we came up with 4.133" for all throws except one - that was the 3,4 journal and it was 4.134"


The stroke was longer then anticipated, and adds 2 cubic inches to the build, but they are all consistent with one being one thou longer.

We can play with deck heights to get thins to work out fine, so it's not an issue and the other measurements were impressive to say the least. I dont know if the colder temps ( 62 ) had anything to do with the measurements since i think the standard is in the 70's.

Just another thought when i got home last night I went to callies site and looked at the $1100 dragonslayer crank specs and what they guarantee their cranks to spec out at - here is the quote -

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These shafts are machined to the tolerances demanded by today’s high performance engine builder. Roundness and taper are held to less than .0003 on all rod and main journal diameters. Our final polishing procedures produce excellent load carrying surfaces that ensure extended bearing life and trouble free operation.

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So for half the price I got a crank within the spec of the Callies Dragonslayer - not bad in my opinion!

Last thing we checked for was the oiling holes were indeed drilled all the way - and they were!


Didnt want to leave any stone unturned with a new part and have an issue later.

BIG THANKS to Fonse Performance - they took good care of me yesterday!

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Thanks for this post. I'm planning a simular build w/my X block & indy 360-1 CNC.This is to out power my 408 W-5. What is your bore size going to be ? My X block has some core shift between the cylinders(.180-.200 thickness currently) and I will most likly offset bore that bank .030-.050 and fill w/hardblock.I was hoping to bore mine 4.1-4.125.Thanks again for the post & pictures.

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I doubt you get that much, sonic check it.

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Thanks for this post. I'm planning a simular build w/my X block & indy 360-1 CNC.This is to out power my 408 W-5. What is your bore size going to be ? My X block has some core shift between the cylinders(.180-.200 thickness currently) and I will most likly offset bore that bank .030-.050 and fill w/hardblock.I was hoping to bore mine 4.1-4.125.Thanks again for the post & pictures.

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While the deck was flat - and this block was machined at a very reputable shop in the 80's the machinery of today has brought inconsistencies like this to the forefront of modern engine building.

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.012 was unattainable in those days.. Just pickin.. good thread.

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Looking good Dave.

What made you go with the rattler balancer vs an ATI?
Just curious.

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.............and since the block is tubed the ability of the lifter to pushrod oil is not going to be used.

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Can you share any insight on the cam and head flow for this beast?....I happen to be running the same springs but with the Ti retainers.

also are you looking for a moderate RPM motor or a high-winder?

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I was prepared to go TI if I had to but Ryan recommended against them - stating they would get chewed up by the damper of the spring. I researched it and Manley and Comp also concur with Ryan. I never doubted Ryan, I just wanted to see if there was a common knowledge I was missing, and apparently the manufacturers are aware of the issue.

just an FYI - I have no idea on the longevity we are talking about but the tool steel is regarded when used with any damper.

Ryan was kind enough to spec out a comp custom roller for me to coincide with his heads - The comp specs:

Dur 258/262, Lift .639/645 w/ 1.5's






I'm looking at this point to make this a midrange motor - 3000 - 6500 - Ryan stated he could throw a bit more duration for more top end, but stated it was a safe, killer piece from 3200 - 6400.

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Can a guy put these 4 bolt main caps on a stock block and use a main girdle with them too??

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Steel 2 bolt caps with studs seems to work good on factory blocks

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- There is no meat for the outer bolts to attach to - The filled rails of the X block are the only thing to make that happen.

I went with the angled bolts to attach to more material then the straight setups -there just is not alot there.

If this was a stock block I'd stud and cap it with 2 bolts.
anything else to a stock block is just compromising the strength IMO.

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I love this build. I just finished my 414 stroker about 9 months ago, and I'm already starting to think of the next one. An R block was in the plans, now it looks like a 4.125 crank will be as well. You guys cause me to spend way too much money.

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A nice build indeed.Great info.Will this block need hard block?

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What kind of HP you looking to get out of it??

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as much as I can....

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why would you need to meausure crank throws for cl?
Is it because of the caps?

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Earlier in this post I thought you said you were going to use ported heads with 2.05 valves.

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I am surprised you didn't machine the cap and shorten the main stud rather than use a bolt. Nice looking build, will be interesting to see the various results

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Thanks for sharing.

What ignition box and coil did you use?

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1 5/8 hooker comps were on there for testing - I didnt want to waste any time with a larger tube and a stock head.

I tried a few spacers, but it really didnt change much - I tried a couple 1" but with similar results.

I really thought one carb setup would walk away from the other but it really didnt...

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Granted thats alot of cubes for a set of stock heads
but I wonder if your choke was the 1 5/8 headers...
hard to say... if you cant get it out you cant get
it in... nice torque out of it

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impressive numbers man!

...makes me think I might build another smallblock rather than do up a bigblock...lol

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Maybe it's just me,but I don't think you will see much of a gain until you put the bigger camshaft in it.
On the header subject,1 3/4" headers seem to be the ticket with mine. I ran 1 7/8" before thinking they were necessary. My dyno testing lately shows a hole in the torque curve that just does not get made up for up top with the bigger headers.
In anything that launches at or below about 4500 rpm anyway,I am learning to like 1 3/4" headers more and more.
Keith

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Same puny 1 5/8" headers?

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more cam and bigger headers

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Too bad ya dont have a super vic to test, Thanks for the post its been good from the start

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out with the old:



In with the new:

MCH CNC heads - 2.055 in / 1.60 ex
COMP Solid roller - Dur 258/262, Lift .639/645 w/ 1.5's
Ported Eddy Super Victor intake
1000 hp Holley

Going for a 1 3/4 to 1 7/8 step header as well to test

( paint looks red in my pix, but it's orange )

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I'm going to be curious of this next set up... much
closer to my set up.... got the total specs on the
cam like LSA..... with the header change I think its
gonna really start to show some numbers.... good luck

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I have the same pan on my engine. How much oil are you running?

Any why the switch between SDSS ported heads and the MCH CNC'd heads? Kind of adds another variable to the equation.

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I'm going to be curious of this next set up... much
closer to my set up.... got the total specs on the
cam like LSA..... with the header change I think its
gonna really start to show some numbers.... good luck

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How much compression does it have now? It would've been great to see the other combo with a different set of headers. Maybe you could run both sets on this configuration for a A to B comparison.

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