Moparts
1964 Hemi hardtops
Posted By: YGBSM
1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 02:53 PM
Who can tell me about the 1964 Hemi hardtops? Jim Schild's book Maximum Performance says that as many as 12 Dodges and 12 Plymouths were made, all on one day in June 1964. I only know about one- the Dodge 440 hardtop that used to be in the Otis Chandler collection. Anybody have pictures of others?
Did the hardtops have the two headlight grilles like the sedans?
Just curious in general about the differences between the 1964 Hemi hardtops and sedans.
I have production figures courtesy of Darryl Davis. I will try to post later. The street cars had 4 headlights, judging by the car formerly owned by Otis Chandler. I'm sure someone will post more info here.
Posted By: SV_MOPARS
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 03:37 PM
i have never seen one except in a magazine, if i'm not mistaken they were considered "a-864", if i'm wrong i'm sure the corrections will be coming.
Posted By: B G Racing
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 03:45 PM
Marvin Hughes in FL owned a green one at one time.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 04:15 PM
I think there was about 35 Plymouths.Dodges less.Lots of them lost to Nascar Racing.Wasn't there a couple at the Hemi-reunion?
Posted By: gtx6970
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 04:29 PM
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Marvin Hughes in FL owned a green one at one time.
Marvin Hughes car and Otis Chandler cars are one and the same.
As to the original question,,,, I can't answer with confidence - otherwise heres a bump for the op
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 04:47 PM
LO23M8B owns a 64 hardtop steel nose Belvedere.
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LO23M8B owns a 64 hardtop steel nose Belvedere.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 05:04 PM
I have got one, if you want to see pictures (since I don't post very well) is go to Car craft mag and Look up Rico Petrini and 1964 Superstock Hemi Belvedere. That will give you some information on the cars. Better yet google Greg Lane and His Max wedge/Hemi pages. Greg and Darrell Davis are the guys to talk to about those cars. As far as numbers go There were 55 Dodge 330 (lightweight front end cars) 35 Dodge 440 (all steel cars) with the Hemis. As far as Plymouth, there were 55 Savoys (light weights) and 35 (all steel) Belvederes made. Not many of either Dodges or Plymouths left. Lightweight cars had an aluminum front end, no backseat, A-100 van seats, single exhaust (from factory) single headlight grill and were post cars. The hardtops were pretty much as you would see a typical 6-cylinder car on the street. Pretty slim in the creature comforts. They had two headlights, full interior, radio heater delete, and just a few lightweight pieces on them. Both versions had the Battery in the trunk for weight distribution. There is still debate on the A-864 A-990 programs. Some say they were all A-864 and I have since service bulletins that refer to the 64' cars as A-864. Some say A-990, I can't tell you who is right. Greg Lane is a wealth of information on those cars. Check him out.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* *DELETED* - 01/27/10 05:24 PM
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Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 05:34 PM
My Darrell Davis book doesn't have the dealer codes in it. I do have a copy of the Chrysler IBM card though. It says mine went to University Motors out of Chicago. I can't imagine a racer going to Chicago. You would think it would have gone to the South, where most of them were out of. I agree with you that not all of them were racers.
Posted By: Aero426
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 05:41 PM
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I think there was about 35 Plymouths.Dodges less.Lots of them lost to Nascar Racing.Wasn't there a couple at the Hemi-reunion?
Mike, I'm really skeptical that most went to NASCAR. I assume you've seen the old historical blueprints/build info for the race cars. With the amount of modifications done to these cars, I can't imagine Chrysler sending race teams anything other than rollers to chop to hell. Reed would absolutely know more on this.
My understanding is that in '64 as they were just getting started with Mopars, Nichels Engineering tore down complete cars to convert for NASCAR, etc. How many? I don't know. But Nichels himself relayed this story before he passed. Whether they were Hemi cars, I can't say either. Those 1964 cars were modified pretty good, but not to the extent of the late 60's stuff.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 05:43 PM
Posted By: 383man
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 05:47 PM
One of my books shows a 64 Dodge bought by a guy named Ferguson and says he drove it home to save the $13.50 shipping. He is the guy that ordered a Max Wedge but they had stopped the Max Wedge run so he got a Hemi !
Ron
Posted By: klunick
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 05:54 PM
Is that a sedan that is in Floyd Garret's collection?
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 05:55 PM
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I think there was about 35 Plymouths.Dodges less.Lots of them lost to Nascar Racing.Wasn't there a couple at the Hemi-reunion?
Mike, I'm really skeptical that most went to NASCAR. I assume you've seen the old historical blueprints/build info for the race cars. With the amount of modifications done to these cars, I can't imagine Chrysler sending race teams anything other than rollers to chop to hell. Reed would absolutely know more on this.
For those of you who have DD's book in front you, are the dealer codes given for the 70 cars? If so, how many different dealer codes are there? Is there any one dealer that received multiple cars? Anybody have access to dealer code locations?
What I'm getting at is this, if the dealers are spread across the country, instead of concentrated near the racer's shops, it would be hard to argue that all the cars went to racers.
I should have said some went to Nascar.Many cars were wrecked and some were fixed but many were replaced.I think most of the mods were done by the teams and remember they did not have any Hemi stuff at first so it would make sense to ship complete cars.The cars were not heavily modified in those days.I know of one or two that actually was sent back unused and sold in Detroit at a dealer.It was a drag car,they were converting it to Nascar but stopped late in the year due to the problems with rulings concerning the Hemi.Sitting right there in the front row.
Posted By: Aero426
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 06:02 PM
These pics are from the Nichels Engineering shop. In the early days of Chrysler's involvement, Nichels, Cotton and Petty built cars from tear downs. Props go to Doug Dempsey for finding and scanning these fantastic shots. I believe these are from cars being prepped for '65, but it will give you an idea what was being done.
USAC Champion driver Norm Nelson. In the off season, Chrysler would send people from their teams to Nichels to work on cars for the coming year.
Jerry Kulwicki (Alan's dad) was Norm's engine builder for many years.
As you can see by the trunk weatherstrip being removed, and the tail light areas, this was a complete car that was torn down.
Race K frame on the jig in the tool room.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/27/10 06:15 PM
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Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 06:23 PM
No, mine doesn't show any dealer codes for either of the Dodges or Plymouths. I wish it did, which might shed some light on the cars themselves.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/27/10 06:26 PM
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Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 06:34 PM
Yes, my book doesn't have any dealer codes for the lightweights or the all steel cars. You know my car ended up in South Carolina, that is where the previous owner found it. Sold in Chicago and ended up in South Carolina. Also, mine was number 17 in the build of 35..right in the middle. You would have thought that more cars than that went to the racers in the south. Would they have sold it out of Chicago to a racer in the South? I wish we had more information on these cars, becuse they sure have a lot of unusual stuff about them.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 06:53 PM
Dave, I just went and found a second book that I have and it does show the dealer codes for all the 64' Plymouth hemi cars. They are only showing numbers for the Dealers. Not names or locations. The first book by DD did not have them. Also, this book is only showing Plymouth. I imagine that if you want the Dodge information, you would have to buy the Dodge book. If you want, I could copy and fax the codes to you. Who would have the Master sheet of dealerships? Also, most of the cars went to different dealers according to the codes. It looks like dealers got just one car. They were spread out pretty good.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/27/10 07:09 PM
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Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 07:20 PM
Seems logical to me. My car had a June 23rd ship date. The earliest ship date I can see is June 15th for the vry first vin on the all steel cars. The dealer code for that car is #5104.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 08:12 PM
The first book I have is kinda the short version, pocket size, by DD. The 2nd one gives all kinds of good information. It called the Complete guide to the 1964 Plymouth Super Stock III and Super Commando Package by Darrell Davis. Check it out. You can order it off of his website.
Posted By: topside
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/27/10 08:49 PM
Like Porsche, the Chrysler codes (A864, A990) are in a numerical order by timeline of creation, not necessarily by sale date or availability. IIRC, the '50s Indy Gen 1 Hemi was an A-311.
864 was the '64 Hemi, 990 the '65 version, but that doesn't explain the variations within the year (NASCAR vs Drag Race spec), which seems vague to me.
There was a red/red '64 Belvie 864 Hemi that showed up in a few magazines in the '80s, apparently an original car, and IIRC it was the single 4-barrel NASCAR motor.
In '65, when the Melrose Missile was to be converted to the full-on AWB from its 2% version, Chrysler shipped a body in white and boxes of parts to facilitate the conversion, since it was not done at Amblewagon but in Calif.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/27/10 09:41 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
"In '65, when the Melrose Missile was to be converted to the full-on AWB from its 2% version, Chrysler shipped a body in white and boxes of parts to facilitate the conversion, since it was not done at Amblewagon but in Calif."
Melrose Motors received a complete & running DIPPED 65 A990 Ply that Tommy Grove said didn't take much to make true 2%'er - block of wood and a sledge on the rear, etc. - I have copies of the receipts of the AWB parts that were sent to convert the car after it's ONE race as a 2% car - Tommy said the car was a "big pain" to do bodywork & paint the first time, much less cutting it apart and redoing it and repainting it again - they had concrete blocks under the floor to support the two guys inside the car holding up the roof so the bodywork could be done ! Tommy said he braced the seat the way the factory told him to and being a 4-speed car, the first launch off the line the seat ripped out of the floor and he fell in the backseat area !!
Trivia for the day - Reed in Neb.
Posted By: Barnstorm
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 12:01 AM
The few that I have seen have had Carter carbs. Some say all early 64's had Carter carbs[A-864]
Posted By: fastmark
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 01:26 AM
There is another guy here on the board that( he lives in Dallas) that owns a 64 htp hemi Dodge. He just bought it a few years ago.
Posted By: KD800X
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 02:25 AM
Tommy said he braced the seat the way the factory told him to and being a 4-speed car, the first launch off the line the seat ripped out of the floor and he fell in the backseat area !!
Trivia for the day - Reed in Neb.
That there is funny!!!
Posted By: PLATINUM6BBL
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 03:49 AM
Were all the steel nosed Plymouth's done as Belvedere's? Back in 83 I looked at a 64 steel nose Hemi Plymouth and I swear it was a Fury. It was a red 4spd car. When I saw it it hadn't been out for a really long time and still in the hands of the second owner who had bought it in 70. The last time I talked to the guy who introduced me to the owner it was still in the same location. It was taking up space w/ a 66 Hemi Satellite convertible and a factory Pontiac race car.
Posted By: topside
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 04:21 AM
Reed, I think the 2% car was delivered, one of 2 Plymouths & 2 Dodges; I'm not aware of the car ever having a standard wheelbase. I'm referring to the 10"/15" AWB conversion of that body. As a 2% car it had the relocated front suspension & K-frame, clearly visible in photos when the car wore "650" as its #, mag fronts, black steel rears. My point is that at that time Chrysler would ship bodies & parts to its contracted racers; that's what Cecil got to facilitate the car's later conversion.
I would think that the "block of wood & a hammer" is a bit of understatement; it would appear to reference the rear axle location, which of course would also require centering/locating pins & holes and shortening the driveshaft. I've thought Chrysler did the 2% mods because they were pretty deliberate about only building 4 2% hardtops, using the '64 2% parts on those specific 4 '65s. I'll check with Cecil on that, as it's certainly possible that they just shipped the stuff to Melrose. That would be consistent with the logic of their later shipment for the 10/15 inch deal. I can post a clarification if anyone's interested.
My dads car,Aluminum nose hemi hardtop. IBM card has limited info. No dealer designation? An exception to the rule?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/28/10 04:43 AM
Post deleted by 64Post
Everyone seems to have a clue but who knows. I asked Tom hoover about early cars being wedge cars pulled off the line and being converted to hemi cars. He told me "THAT NEVER HAPPENED" a few months later Galen had an article claiming it did happen. Seems like its an early engineering car.
"I would think that the "block of wood & a hammer" is a bit of understatement"
I agree Steve, sorry I wasn't more item specific.
However, I do know for a fact that the parts were shipped to Melrose Motors to convert the 65 car to a 10/15 AWB and they did the conversion in the Melrose Motors shop. I have Tommy Grove's resignation papers and he didn't leave Melrose Motors until Feb 14, 1965 - Tommy and his crew(including Cecil Y.) built and tested the 65 car - I'll ask Tommy if he ever raced it or just tested it and also how they received the 65 car to begin with. I'll call Charlie Debari too for additional verification.
"My point is that at that time Chrysler would ship bodies & parts to its contracted racers; that's what Cecil got to facilitate the car's later conversion."
Wasn't quite sure what you meant ? Are you saying that there was another body or just parts that were shipped to Melrose Motors to facilitate the car's later conversion ?
Thank you for any clarification.
Reed in Neb.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 05:08 AM
I have a theory I'm working on.
I'd be curious as to what that was.... I wonder why Chrysler (Dodge/Plymouth) would release so many cars right before th 65' season. I mean they could have waited a month or so and made them all A-990 cars. What is with that? Were the cars late replacements for Max wedge cars that were ordered? Why would Chrysler make a similar number of each Dodge and Plymouth lightweights at 55 each and all steel cars at 35 each. Seems like someone thought about it enough to order even amounts of production. And for what purpose in the numbers? If they were just replacements for max-wedge orders, chances are they would be an odd number for each? What gives?
Posted By: mr_340
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 05:13 AM
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My dads car,Aluminum nose hemi hardtop. IBM card has limited info. No dealer designation? An exception to the rule?
Kind of strange to see that car with single headlights and the MW scoop. Did it come like that from the factory? Maybe they ran out of the Hemi scoops and put the MW scoop/hood on instead.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 05:26 AM
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My dads car,Aluminum nose hemi hardtop. IBM card has limited info. No dealer designation? An exception to the rule?
Kind of strange to see that car with single headlights and the MW scoop. Did it come like that from the factory? Maybe they ran out of the Hemi scoops and put the MW scoop/hood on instead.
Also it is not a post car. Single headlights, should be an aluminum front end post car. Not a hardtop with the Max-wedge scoop. Can you post the IBM card?
exception to the rule?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/28/10 06:25 AM
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Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 06:53 AM
Dave the car I spoke of in my earlier post that was sold at a Detroit dealer was a lightweight not steel front end Belvedere 4sp hardtop.It was sold in early 65.The location of the car today is known.Also what is known about this car? Looks to be steel 64 Hemi car, pic enclosed.Hood appears to be Hemi not Maxi. Owner or driver Bill Dill.
Note: picture description stated early 64. How early? That I do not know, but it was racing a 64 Thunderbolt.I also have a theory that indeed some cars were replacements for Maxi cars.
here is an article i have from a few years back
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/28/10 07:22 AM
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Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 12:33 PM
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exception to the rule?
That car shows up as a Plymouth Belvedere Super Stock III, Aluminum front end car, in DD'S book. If you want, I will PM you the rest of the vin to verify that.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/28/10 04:50 PM
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Posted By: SSDA5006
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 05:59 PM
Can't speak for all the hemi hardtops but the one raced by Gary Ostrich here in Iowa was originally purchased by a man wanting a max wedge. Ordered a max wedge 64 Plymouth in January and was informed production stopped but could get a hemi later.
When the hemi arrived in June/July he didn't want it and Gary ended up with it. This is the car now owned by Pat Goff in MN.
As for the Nichels Engineering cars I've seen paperwork on some of the race cars with the vins listed and they do not match any of the hardtop hemi cars.
As previously stated the stock cars were primarily built in early 64 and the hemi hardtops were built in the summer.
FYI,
Alex
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exception to the rule?
That car shows up as a Plymouth Belvedere Super Stock III, Aluminum front end car, in DD'S book. If you want, I will PM you the rest of the vin to verify that.
Nice job, Rico. Where would we be without Darrell Davis?
John, thanks for posting the punch card. It helped me figure out how the aluminum option was designated on the card. Looks like you finally got your answer. Great car! 
I sure wish Darrell knew why this was done? Like i have said. Its known it was a supposed to be a wedge car, but it never left the factory with one
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 07:36 PM
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I sure wish Darrell knew why this was done? Like i have said. Its known it was a supposed to be a wedge car, but it never left the factory with one
I was just getting ready to ask if it had the inverted shock tower for the Hemi!
Wow, that's interesting.... 
If it didn't have that it'd be relatively easy to assume it was a Max car converted to Hemi by someone.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 01/28/10 08:48 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
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I sure wish Darrell knew why this was done? Like i have said. Its known it was a supposed to be a wedge car, but it never left the factory with one
Can you confirm the tower mod was done before the car left the factory?
Can you confirm the Hemi was in the car before it left the factory?
The shock towers were issued by Chrysler and given to racers to be retrofit on the cars that either, didn't have them when they left the factory, or for guys to drop Hemis into their cars.
No i cannot confirm that. I wasn't there. but either can anyone else. If i could we wouldn't be having this conversation. I can tell you when my dad stripped the black paint that had been bombed in the engine compartment there was red paint over that area. I doubt someone would take the time to metal finish and then paint when doing a "conversion" there had to be a first!!!!
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 09:48 PM
Can someone tell me if the 1964 Ramcharges Dodge 330 is the real deal hemi car? Tim Hennessey/Bill Drakes 1964 Hemi Car is that still around? The 1964 Hemi Car with the Blown Dual plug Hemi in it, is that car still in that condition.
Also is the 1964 Dodge and Plymouth Hemi/maxie books, do they have the same information as the 1963 books. If so could someone look up how many Dodges and Plymouths were shipped into Canada.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/28/10 10:17 PM
I have DD's '64 Dodge book, it has region & dealer codes for the HEMI hardtops (all shown as 440s).
it shows:
7 - company cars
6 - eastern region
7 - midwest region
8 - central region
2 - southern region
5 - western region
They went all over, with only two originally destined for the south.
Accounting for the 35 HEMI Dodge 440 hardtops, no showing for any cars shipped to Canada unless I'm missing something.
man where'd everyone go
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/29/10 05:09 AM
I gotta go do my stuff and make the wife popcorn, and watch 500 days with her... ain't nothing like a chick flick with the wife after talking about hemi cars
ain't life good..
Posted By: Barnstorm
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/29/10 02:34 PM
Are those 3705 Carters on a Hemi manifold?
Posted By: wkroncke17
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/29/10 02:41 PM
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I gotta go do my stuff and make the wife popcorn, and watch 500 days with her... ain't nothing like a chick flick with the wife after talking about hemi cars ain't life good..
Good man.....my father always told me no peace during the day.....no piece at night.
I have to scan in and post a pic of my Dads '64 post Hemi car. I enjoy looking at and learning about all of these cars.
Wally.
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Are those 3705 Carters on a Hemi manifold?
3861's almost identical to a 3705 though.
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3861's almost identical to a 3705 though.
Yep, and it's the "norm" for a 64 Race Hemi to have them (although I'm fairly certain the fuel filters should have red ink stamps not blue). That intake manifold is wild with such an early date, I can only surmise that it's a VERY early experimental piece or possibley a casting error with the year being wrong (which is not all that rare, I've seen that on other manifolds).
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3861's almost identical to a 3705 though.
Yep, and it's the "norm" for a 64 Race Hemi to have them (although I'm fairly certain the fuel filters should have red ink stamps not blue). That intake manifold is wild with such an early date, I can only surmise that it's a VERY early experimental piece or possibley a casting error with the year being wrong (which is not all that rare, I've seen that on other manifolds).
The filters im really not sure on. I seen em and had to have em. The intake i believe is an early piece. when compared to a 65 or later intake it has the thick front and rear flange were the later ones were thin for the cork gaskets
Post some pics of the intake in full and show the flanges if you can, be some good oddball tech stuff to archive away. As far as the filters go, every vintage photo I've seen (and there aren't many) show the red filter stampings on both Max Wedge and Race Hemi's, 66-67 Street Hemi's had the blue filters (for certain). The same vendor who made yours (Quiery Engineering) also makes them with the red stamps.
65 hemi (magnesium) intake 1/4 thick
63 hemi (aluminum) intake 3/8 thick
Scott if you can be specific on what you would like pictures of that would help. Im not the best at photos (well my camera isn't anyways) so that would make it a little better. I can tell you cosmetically it looks nothing like a 65 intake. The 65 mag intake is basically "as-cast" on the outside were this 63 and the 64 intake thats on the car are ground or machined smooth on the sides above the valve cover and on the edges
I also spoke with Darrell Davis this morning and he didn't have much info other then what has been collected here already. He did say it should be an interesting story though
Photo suggestions:
Is the 63 dated intake bolted to an engine? If so please try to remove as many parts as possible to unobstruct the details of the manifold, crank up the indoor lighting (your photos are a bit dark, likely due to poor lighting and a long exposure time), and shoot a pic straight down on it, from each side, and each end, capturing the entire intake in one shot in each pic. If it's possible to get a side by side with the 65 intake (same angles) that would be awesome! Also, for better/clearer shots, pictures taken with no flash using outdoor natural sun as lighting (in the shade or under overcast skies is best) are usually the easiest conditions to take pics with good results.
Very nice job! Now, carefully pack each on in a well insulated box, then put that box into a second well insulated box and ship them to:
Scott Smith
9807 E. Broadway Ave.
Spokane Valley, WA 99206
Thank you!
Here, save you all a bit of eye strain....Quite a number of differences!
Now on the filters scott, everything i have seen says 60-63 for red print? and 64 up for blue? Haven't confirmed thats just what there listed as
The pics I've seen were of original 64 and 65 engines so I know at least some (probably all) got red ones. If I can locate the pics (been a while) I will post them.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/30/10 07:25 AM
Where are all the 1964 Nascar cars? We see a ton (give or take) of 1964 NHRA cars, but where are the NASCAR cars. Who has one. What are the vins? How did racers get them? I think there were something like 60 NASCAR Races in 1964. There has to be a few cars floating around. Maybe 1 or 2...ya think? That might help solve this mystery.
Posted By: curbman68
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/30/10 03:48 PM
I thought all the aluminum crossrams had this date. I guess at least 2 did.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 01/30/10 04:15 PM
It is a fairly good bet that some cars were reskinned as 65's.They never threw away anything they could use. Yes I know that the boycott of Nascar went on in 65 and there was not as many cars running until late in the year. As I posted earlier some cars were damaged.There was no boycott in USAC for 65 so perhaps some filtered over to that series.Others likely were sold and ran in local races.Regardless of the fact that they were either bodies in white or reworked complete cars most just became old broken down race cars that ended up stripped of the good stuff and the rest discarded.I am still checking how many teams received at least one or more complete cars.Two so far.
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 01:58 AM
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Can someone tell me if the 1964 Ramcharges Dodge 330 is the real deal hemi car?
Tim Hennessey/Bill Drakes 1964 Hemi Car is that still around?
The 1964 Hemi Car with the Blown Dual plug Hemi in it, is that car still in that condition.
The Ramchargers race team had a couple of 64 Dodge's, one was a 64 max-wedge hardtop, and the other was a 64 Hemi sedan 2% car.
And yes I also remember Tim Hennessey's white 64 Hemi Plymouth sedan. It was featured in a couple of magazines back in the late 80's, but I don't know of it's where-abouts today.
I'm not sure of the 64 w/blown hemi you speak of, was it a hardtop or sedan.
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 02:29 AM
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Also what is known about this car? Looks to be steel 64 Hemi car, pic enclosed. Hood appears to be Hemi not Maxi. Owner or driver Bill Dill. Note: picture description stated early 64. How early? That I do not know, but it was racing a 64 Thunderbolt. I also have a theory that indeed some cars were replacements for Maxi cars.
Here are somemore 64 Plymouth hardtops that were posted before on Moparts. In the first pic, this is a real 64 Hemi Plymouth hardtop racing a 64 thunder-bolt, and I believe the owner was from Minnesota.
I'm not sure about these other two pics though because there were several racers that raced 64 Dodge & Plymouth hardtops, be it max-wedge or hemi cars, and would be real hard to document them just by old photo's unless you personally knew of the car.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4864489-scan0029_001.jpg
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4865455-2017261-TRITAK1.jpg
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4883969-scan0258-vi.jpg
I also recall Dave Wren racing a 64 Plymouth hardtop out of the north-west.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:11 AM
Thanks for the post. Hopefullly more 64 Hemi guys will chime in.
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:33 AM
Quote:
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Can someone tell me if the 1964 Ramcharges Dodge 330 is the real deal hemi car?
Tim Hennessey/Bill Drakes 1964 Hemi Car is that still around? The 1964 Hemi Car with the Blown Dual plug Hemi in it, is that car still in that condition.
The Ramchargers race team had a couple 64 Dodge's, one was a 64 max-wedge hardtop, and the other was a 2% 64 Hemi sedan.
I'm not sure about the other one you speak of, was it a hardtop or sedan.
I believe the 2% car started out as a Max Wedge.
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:35 AM
Quote:
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Also what is known about this car? Looks to be steel 64 Hemi car, pic enclosed. Hood appears to be Hemi not Maxi. Owner or driver Bill Dill. Note: picture description stated early 64. How early? That I do not know, but it was racing a 64 Thunderbolt. I also have a theory that indeed some cars were replacements for Maxi cars.
Here are somemore 64 Plymouth hardtops that were posted before on Moparts. In the first pic, this is a real 64 Hemi Plymouth hardtop racing a 64 thunder-bolt, and I believe the owner was from Minnesota.
I'm not sure about these other two pics though because there were several racers that raced 64 Dodge & Plymouth hardtops, be it max-wedge or hemi cars, and would be real hard to document them just by old photo's unless you personally knew of the car.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4864489-scan0029_001.jpg
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4865455-2017261-TRITAK1.jpg
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4883969-scan0258-vi.jpg
I also recall Dave Wren racing a 64 Plymouth hardtop out of the north-west.
Depsite the hood scoop, the Tritak & Morgan car was a Max Wedge as far as I know, and so was Luke Garner's Gratiot Auto Supply car.
Dave Wren raced the '64 Plymouth as a one year only rule change thing in 1969. It started off as a plain old Fury hardtop according to Dave Koffel, who built the car for him.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:57 AM
So the Lynn Ferguson - Marvin Hughes - Otis Chandler & others '64 HEMI Dodge 440 HT is 62422392xx and was sold in REGION-42 (DETROIT) at DEALER-#52550 which according to the book
"American Muscle" was Lundy Motors (Dodge Dealer) in St. Johns, Michigan. GOOGLE maps shows St. Johns, MI to Hamtramck, MI to be 107 miles (the
"American Muscle" story says 90 miles, close enough). The story also says three other HEMI cars were there waiting to be shipped when Lynn picked his car up. According to DD's book there are two other Dodges with the same shipping date 6/18 (one a "company car" - the other destined for the St. Louis region) is there a lone Plymouth with the same date?
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 06:14 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Also what is known about this car? Looks to be steel 64 Hemi car, pic enclosed. Hood appears to be Hemi not Maxi. Owner or driver Bill Dill. Note: picture description stated early 64. How early? That I do not know, but it was racing a 64 Thunderbolt. I also have a theory that indeed some cars were replacements for Maxi cars.
Here are somemore 64 Plymouth hardtops that were posted before on Moparts. In the first pic, this is a real 64 Hemi Plymouth hardtop racing a 64 thunder-bolt, and I believe the owner was from Minnesota.
I'm not sure about these other two pics though because there were several racers that raced 64 Dodge & Plymouth hardtops, be it max-wedge or hemi cars, and would be real hard to document them just by old photo's unless you personally knew of the car.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4864489-scan0029_001.jpg
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4865455-2017261-TRITAK1.jpg
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/4883969-scan0258-vi.jpg
I also recall Dave Wren racing a 64 Plymouth hardtop out of the north-west.
Depsite the hood scoop, the Tritak & Morgan car was a Max Wedge as far as I know, and so was Luke Garner's Gratiot Auto Supply car.
Dave Wren raced the '64 Plymouth as a one year only rule change thing in 1969. It started off as a plain old Fury hardtop according to Dave Koffel, who built the car for him.
Correct,I knew Luke very well always a Max Wedge.
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 12:00 PM
(Race&Resto) - The Ramchargers race team had a couple of 64 Dodge's, one was a 64 max-wedge hardtop, and the other was a 64 Hemi sedan 2% car.
(sixpakdodge) - I believe the 2% car started out as a Max Wedge.
I personally don't think it ever had a max-wedge engine in it, or at least raced with one, because I've never seen any old photo's to confirm this. But I do believe this 64 Dodge sedan was slated to become a max-wedge car, because it had a max-wedge scoop on it, but it never made it out the door. I believe it was given to the Ramcharger's team and converted to the first Hemi mule car.
That's my theory, unless someone can provide some photo's of this 64 Ramcharger sedan with a max-wedge engine shot? Infact I could have bought this 64 Hemi sedan from an Iowa seller in the late 80's, but Mike Guffey eventually ended up buying it about a year later. I talked with him several times over the next couple of years about this car, we discussed several things on it and he told me there was no VIN plate or fender tag on the car, and he did find a November/63 build date under the rear package tray.
So take that info for what it is, unless someone knows one of the Ramcharger team members that remembers how this car was built exactly? It would be interesting to find out the build dates of the other 64 Dodge & Plymouth 2% cars, (four cars were built, two Dodge's & two Plymouth's).
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 03:17 PM
Quote:
(Race&Resto) - The Ramchargers race team had a couple of 64 Dodge's, one was a 64 max-wedge hardtop, and the other was a 64 Hemi sedan 2% car.
(sixpakdodge) - I believe the 2% car started out as a Max Wedge.
I personally don't think it ever had a max-wedge engine in it, or at least raced with one, because I've never seen any old photo's to confirm this. But I do believe this 64 Dodge sedan was slated to become a max-wedge car, because it had a max-wedge scoop on it, but it never made it out the door. I believe it was given to the Ramcharger's team and converted to the first Hemi mule car.
That's my theory, unless someone can provide some photo's of this 64 Ramcharger sedan with a max-wedge engine shot? Infact I could have bought this 64 Hemi sedan from an Iowa seller in the late 80's, but Mike Guffey eventually ended up buying it about a year later. I talked with him several times over the next couple of years about this car, we discussed several things on it and he told me there was no VIN plate or fender tag on the car, and he did find a November/63 build date under the rear package tray.
So take that info for what it is, unless someone knows one of the Ramcharger team members that remembers how this car was built exactly? It would be interesting to find out the build dates of the other 64 Dodge & Plymouth 2% cars, (four cars were built, two Dodge's & two Plymouth's).
All 4 of the 2% cars started off as Max Wedges.
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 03:25 PM
See attached.
Posted By: ademon
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:00 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Are those 3705 Carters on a Hemi manifold?
3861's almost identical to a 3705 though.
Here's a few pics of a 3861s, this one is not stamped on the ear, making it a production line carb, the only way to identify a production line 3861 is by the aluminum tag. Replacement carbs have the tag and stamp. BTW this carb must have been run for a very short time, it still has a "861" ink stamp in the bowl, notice no vacuum ports.
.jpg "5779023-Parts(94).jpg")
Posted By: ademon
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:02 PM
2nd
.jpg "5779025-Parts(93).jpg")
Posted By: ademon
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:03 PM
3rd
.jpg "5779028-Parts(97).jpg")
Posted By: ademon
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/03/10 04:04 PM
last
.jpg "5779029-Parts(99).jpg")
All 4 of the 2% cars started off as Max Wedges.
They were MW BODIES but became the first Hemi cars. All had Hemi's installed and were tested in Calif. a week before the Winternats and as Cahill told me "They couldn't fall out of a tree".
All four 2% cars were single headlite with MW Scoops.
The 2% is a misnomer, they were more than 2% - They were the first Factory AWB's !
Reed in Neb.
Quote:
All 4 of the 2% cars started off as Max Wedges.
They were MW BODIES but became the first Hemi cars. All had Hemi's installed and were tested in Calif. a week before the Winternats and as Cahill told me "They couldn't fall out of a tree".
All four 2% cars were single headlite with MW Scoops.
The 2% is a misnomer, they were more than 2% - They were the first Factory AWB's !
Reed in Neb.
Reed,
do you know what any of the build/ship dates are on the 2% cars?
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/04/10 01:21 AM
Posted By: 426Savoy
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/04/10 01:47 AM
Been reading Darrell's 64 Plymouth SS book this week.
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/04/10 01:02 PM
So getting back to the original topic of 64 Hemi Dodge & Plymouth hardtops built late in the model year, built in June 64 if I recall as in early August production was shutdown to change tooling for the new 65 models.
So it would be safe to say that when the "max-wedge engine was dropped" that all of the steel & aluminum front-end 64 Hemi Sedans & hardtops that were built after were originally left over max-wedge bodies then?
Maybe Chrysler had some sort of promotional deal where they offered some dealers a chance to sell the new Race Hemi to the public or local racers, if they saw one sitting in the showroom floor, or on the dealership lot? This would just be another way they used to sell more high perf cars to the public because the Race Hemi's were cleaning everyone's clocks on the strips & ovals.
I'm just speculating here but I'm all ears and open to here anyone else's thoughts why they built those 70 units of Hemi hardtops. Anyone get a hold of Greg Lane yet, maybe he can chime in and shed some light on this subject?
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/04/10 05:50 PM
You have to remember as well that the Hemi's had the inverted shock towers where the Max Wedges did not, so they could not be "leftover Max Wedge" bodies. This wouldn't even be possible if you think about it. The cars came down the line with every other Slant 6, 318, 361 and etc. They were not sequentially tagged.
The only reason I could see these cars being built is to sway Nascar, since the teams were running hardtops in '64.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/04/10 08:02 PM
shipping date info from DD's books:
330 Dodge sedans (55 cars) - May 13th to June 13th
440 Dodge hardtops (35 cars) - June 11th to August 18th
Belvedere Plymouth hardtops (35 cars) - June 15th to July 21st
The last 10 cars are all "white" with "gold" interior Dodges (bewtween 7/27 to 8/18), all completed after the last Plymouth. Five are "company cars", does anyone have info on a known car that is listed as a "company car"? What was the deal, how did this work? Four of the remaining cars went to the same dealership.
region # - 33 (Philadelphia)
dealer # - 56031
Reedman Dodge Inc.
Langhorn, PA
None of the Plymouth hardtops are listed as "company cars".
Did the Plymouth Dealership network do a better job of promoting/selling these cars?
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/05/10 12:29 AM
Quote:
You have to remember as well that the Hemi's had the inverted shock towers where the Max Wedges did not, so they could not be "leftover Max Wedge" bodies. This wouldn't even be possible if you think about it. The cars came down the line with every other Slant 6, 318, 361 and etc. They were not sequentially tagged.
The only reason I could see these cars being built is to sway Nascar, since the teams were running hardtops in '64.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough when I said these cars were left over max-wedge bodies, perhaps I should have said they were "max-wedge ordered cars". The reason I said this is because it is a known fact that some customers that had placed a order for a new max-wedge car, but they received a new Race Hemi instead! So technically wouldn't that now mean that the max-wedge ordered cars were now modified with the shock towers, hemi hood scoops, etc. Does that make any more sense now?
There may be something to your other point though, does anyone out there know if the 64 Nascar rules said anything on the total number of cars needed to be build before you were allowed to race, (just like the 69-70 wing car rule.)
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/05/10 07:33 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
Nicely stated - Reed in Neb.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/05/10 09:30 PM
Quote:
I wish someone would step up with the dealer codes, we might be able to figure something out.
So the other dark turquoise metallic/4-spd '64 HEMI Dodge 440 HT is 62422395xx and was shipped to REGION-31 (BOSTON) at DEALER-#56719 which is/was Al's Auto Sales Inc. on Saybrook Rd. in Middletown, Connecticut.
It's a two way street - having the opportunity to ask the right person the right question with the desire to learn something.
Quote:
Many guys have researched these cars and are unwilling to share what they know because they've spent years acquiring the proprietary information or tracking down the original drivers/cars. It doesn't mean that no one out there knows the answers. Open source info via TSB and books ( D.D's, DRFS, etc. ) are another story.
What could be "proprietary" about any of this? What would anyone have to gain by not sharing info about these cars? I don't see anyone trying to locate any of these cars with some type of financial gain in mind?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/05/10 10:26 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
As far as Galen, Daryl, or anyone elses business, I can't comment. As far as the question you pointed at me, no, I don't authenticate cars for free, that's a service I offer as part of my business and for the record is more involving than a simple sharing of information, public or otherwise. On the other hand I quite commonly share information and details for free here on Moparts and on the phone (no credit card required), in many cases this information is not public or commonly known, so what? It's not always about money or profit (IMO anyway) I suppose some think it would be better to hoard info they might have until they die off and the history dies with them?
Anyway, I'm not attempting to confront anyone here, just curious why everyone is so tight lipped about sharing some history? I really don't see how answering any of the questions posted so far would cause anyone to lose potential profits? If I missed something please feel free to let me know?
Still
Quote:
As far as Galen, Daryl, or anyone elses business, I can't comment. As far as the question you pointed at me, no, I don't authenticate cars for free, that's a service I offer as part of my business and for the record is more involving than a simple sharing of information public or otherwise. On the other hand I quite commonly share information and details for free here on Moparts and on the phone (no credit card required), in many cases this information is not public or commonly known, so what? It's not always about money or profit (IMO anyway) I suppose some think it would be better to hoard info they might have until they die off and the history dies with them?
Anyway, I'm not attempting to confront anyone here, just curious why everyone is so tight lipped about sharing some history? I really don't see how answering any of the questions posted so far would cause anyone to lose potential profits? If I missed something please feel free to let me know?
Still
Scott, You didn't know? Thats part of the mopar heritage. You know, when you own it, its nothing but when i have it, it's gold. I find it pretty sad when you have what could be THE FIRST HEMICAR EVER BUILT (yeah i said it) and everyones tight lipped because they are overwhelmed by there ego's 
It's ok i know what it is, I don't need some J,O, to tell me
Posted By: Barnstorm
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 01:09 AM
A few of us have been around since these cars were brand new. Front clips interchange and were dirt cheap then. Unless you class raced[most didn't] aluminum fronts were so dent prone, some traded them for steel. We knew factory workers back then but when you ask them what color crayon they used to OK stuff they[and rightly so] said "who cares...we were either drunk or irritated at the company". Makes documentation even more of a guess than.......These cars are big fun and "special info" will always be debated.
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 03:30 AM
Quote:
I also spoke with Darrell Davis this morning and he didn't have much info other then what has been collected here already. He did say it should be an interesting story though
prochargedhemi, I'm sure Darrell Davis has a wealth of information that he's found by going through Chrysler's old records and writing some books on it, but it looks like he couldn't answer your question either?
Although you did get some information on you dads 64 Plymouth hardtop by sending in your VIN info and getting an IBM card from Chrysler, and found out the build & shipping date and got some other specific info from DD. I sure hope you find out more info on that early mystery car of yours.
And yes we all know of people out there that hoard their info & facts that they've found themselves over the years. But I guess that's their right if they don't want to share or help out. Well that's fine with me because I've been through all that BS before with people like that, and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
Yes we all know about the first four 2% cars that were built and their race heritage because they were the first Hemi mule cars built, but what were their build & shipping dates? I would really like to know that info myself as well, anyone?
Yes we've all seen the black & white photo the front-end shot of the 64 Hemi Dodge sedan with the two guys from the factory standing beside it, but I wouldn't mind seeing some other factory photo's.
Yes the 64 Hemi production figures state there were 110 sedan's built, (55 Dodges, and 55 Plymouths). Along with the 70 hardtops built, (35 Dodge's and 35 Plymouth's), for a grand total of 180 units built, (supposedly).
The earliest build & shipping dates that I've read about was from the owner of the Landy 64 Hemi sedan, with a scheduled production date of May 21/64 and shipping date of May 27/64. He goes onto say that all of the surviving or remaining 64 Hemi sedan's have higher build & shipping dates. But I guess that's up for debate as well.
I would be interested myself in helping you find out more info about the early Hemi cars too. I did do some research myself over 20 years ago on these early Hemi cars, but sometimes life has different plans for you. Well after a long hiatus, the interest in these old Hemi cars is back! So this is what I would like to find out:
What was "the exact date" the last max-wedge motor was installed into a car from the factory?
And what was "the exact date" of the first production 426 Hemi motor installed into a car from the factory?
So any other info & help would be appreciated!
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 04:16 AM
Quote:
As far as Galen, Daryl, or anyone elses business, I can't comment. As far as the question you pointed at me, no, I don't authenticate cars for free, that's a service I offer as part of my business and for the record is more involving than a simple sharing of information, public or otherwise. On the other hand I quite commonly share information and details for free here on Moparts and on the phone (no credit card required), in many cases this information is not public or commonly known, so what? It's not always about money or profit (IMO anyway) I suppose some think it would be better to hoard info they might have until they die off and the history dies with them?
Anyway, I'm not attempting to confront anyone here, just curious why everyone is so tight lipped about sharing some history? I really don't see how answering any of the questions posted so far would cause anyone to lose potential profits? If I missed something please feel free to let me know?
Still
Scott, I gotta agree with you. I have called you and you were very upfront with me about that WO car here in California. You gave me great information and didn't charge me a dime and I respect and appreciate that. Greg Lane was an unbelievable source of information to me and also provided help in locating correct parts. I have talked to him much about these cars and you know, he would just talk for hours and the wealth of information he gave, just because he loved them, and wanted to share it. Darrell Davis I have talked to as well and he was very much the same. I don't mind paying for any of that stuff, because I know it does have value to the right people. But share it, if you have some top secret documentation about an individual car, well then go ahead and charge, no problem with that. I would gladly pay for any info on the history of my individual car, that could be documented. Give us some idea that you have that knowledge. But general stuff, like, why the cars were built, were they raced? were they just max-wedge replacements? In my opinion should be shared. Why hoard that information? Get it out there before all the guys that are in the "know" about these cars die- off. Is there any harm in that?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/06/10 04:22 AM
Post deleted by 64Post
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 04:28 AM
Thanks for chiming in Dave, you and I have talked much about these cars as well. Hopefully if we keep it going (and I agree 2000 posts) someone will chime in. Are you going to the MATS?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/06/10 04:44 AM
Post deleted by 64Post
Posted By: FC7cuda
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 07:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
You have to remember as well that the Hemi's had the inverted shock towers where the Max Wedges did not, so they could not be "leftover Max Wedge" bodies. This wouldn't even be possible if you think about it. The cars came down the line with every other Slant 6, 318, 361 and etc. They were not sequentially tagged.
The only reason I could see these cars being built is to sway Nascar, since the teams were running hardtops in '64.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough when I said these cars were left over max-wedge bodies, perhaps I should have said they were "max-wedge ordered cars". The reason I said this is because it is a known fact that some customers that had placed a order for a new max-wedge car, but they received a new Race Hemi instead! So technically wouldn't that now mean that the max-wedge ordered cars were now modified with the shock towers, hemi hood scoops, etc. Does that make any more sense now?
There may be something to your other point though, does anyone out there know if the 64 Nascar rules said anything on the total number of cars needed to be build before you were allowed to race, (just like the 69-70 wing car rule.)
I believe the first part of your statement is true if I'm understanding the story of the Ferguson car. He ordered a Max Wedge and they built him an early hemi car. He drove it home from the factory.
Regarding Nascar rules on production, I believe that refers to models and not specific engines in those models...so the 64 hardtops are eligible for Nascar.
Enjoy the thread, some of the 2000 hits are mine...
Tom
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 03:23 PM
Here is a shot of the Ramcharger's 330 2% car at Detroit Dragway. I don't believe for a minute that this car ever had a max wedge motor in it. I also have a shot of Dave Stricklers '64 330 and it also has the max scoop and two headlight grill and yes it has the Hemi engine.
hairbender out of Sioux Falls SD. Was an aluminium front end car. If I remember right dad said it was an auto and the guys that ran it after Dick hansen/Gordan Stewart(owner of stewarts school of hir styling) put a 4 speed in it or it was the other way around. Ron Roddel owned it then sold it and it went somewhere in Ia then last I heard it was in Fl.
2
Posted By: KD800X
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 05:39 PM
According to 'We Were The Ramchargers" book. The original reason for moving the rear wheels on the Dodge was to compete with the Plymouths which had a shorter wheel base.
According to the book, the first new Hemi Car was there car and it was built in there garage with the F/X enhancements.
Then it goes on to say that eventually 3 other cars were built, a Dodge for Strickler, and Plymouths for the Commandos and Tommy Grove.
They went to Lions to test before the Winter Nat's and the Hemis did not run any better than the Wedges, so they decided not to run the Hemi's at Pomona instead they brought the Wedges back out for that race. The first race with eh 64 Hemi was at Detroit Dragway, (with Holleys).
This car according to the book, was the "worlds first and fastest 426 Hemi car", and it was sold to Eddie Smith (West Virginia Hemi.
The book does not mention anything about 2dr Hardtops, or how many hemis were built in 64. All it shows is 330 sedans with Max Wedge Hood scoop then in another picture it has the Hemi Scoop so I'm guessing they changed scoops in the middle of the year.
There is one picture with a 64 Plymouth way in the back ground. It's hard to see but it's a hard top with a Max Wedge Scoop and it looks like it has only two head lights instead of 4.
Maybe if someone knows Tom Hoover could call him and possibly shed some light on the subject.
I thought those 4 cars were built by the alexander brothers?
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 06:50 PM
According to some info in Jim Schilds 1964 Hemi booklet, there were more cars than the four 2% cars that everyone is familiar with delivered to the Alexander bros shop for work prior to Pomona. He does mention that some received more mods than others. A recently uncovered 1964 magazine article speaks of this in detail and pretty much says the same thing. Is this were Jim got his info?
Posted By: KD800X
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 07:44 PM
Ok, here it is. Page 140, "We Were The Ramchargers" Thorton says, The construction of the new Hemi Cars was performed with heightened security at the Ramchargers garage. It was not only the first new Hemi drag car built but aslo incorporated chassis enhancements for the Factory Experimental class. (I'm quoting from the book". Then Thorton goes on to explain how he come up with the idea of moving the K member forward 3" etc etc.
Then in the last paragraph on page 140 I think this is still Thorton talking.... " At this point, we had a lot of confidence in the Alexander Brothers, and they did a lot of work for us. Eventually, three other cars were commissioned - another Dodge for Strickler and Plymouths for the Commandos and Tommy Grove - which probably tells you something about the pecking order nationally."
Judging from the rest of the book, the Alexander Bros, did all of the Ramchargers paint work. They talk about the in 1963 painting there car, and they talk about them painting the T/F car. They are not real clear but maybe they did some body work for them?
Hey what do I know.... I was 5 years from being born.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/06/10 07:49 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 08:00 PM
" At this point, we had a lot of confidence in the Alexander Brothers, and they did a lot of work for us. Eventually, three other cars were commissioned - another Dodge for Strickler and Plymouths for the Commandos and Tommy Grove - which probably tells you something about the pecking order nationally."
I believe this should say Plymouths for Grove and Eckstrand (post car). GC's,CMG etc built their own 2% cars.
Posted By: KD800X
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 08:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
This car according to the book, was the "worlds first and fastest 426 Hemi car."
I call BS. This is yet another historically inaccurate book brought out by some know-nothing that had no intimate knowledge of Chrysler's involvement in drag racing. Speculation always trumps facts. We ALL know who has the real first Hemi car, now don't we? 
[sarcasm]
Were Tornton and Hoover even a member of the Ramchargers??.. 
Posted By: KD800X
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 08:39 PM
Quote:
" At this point, we had a lot of confidence in the Alexander Brothers, and they did a lot of work for us. Eventually, three other cars were commissioned - another Dodge for Strickler and Plymouths for the Commandos and Tommy Grove - which probably tells you something about the pecking order nationally."
I believe this should say Plymouths for Grove and Eckstrand (post car). GC's,CMG etc built their own 2% cars.
Yha, that paragraph was not real clear as to what part the Alexander Bros played in the whole deal. Besides Grove drove the Missle, so I'm sure your right there, so it must have been Eckstrand.
Posted By: John_Kunkel
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 09:28 PM
Coming in late on this thread.
I have memories of a '64 Hemi Sport Fury, turquoise with matching interior, sold new by Diener Dodge in Roseville, Calif. Yes, a Plymouth ordered from a Dodge dealer because the buyer had pull there and wanted special handling.
Posted By: Tim S.
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 09:44 PM
This guy
www.moparponderosa.com sold one a few years ago i think. It was a Fury Hardtop, all original HEMI car. I saw the car but my memory is shaky. I think it was turquoise. had lots of paperwork.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/06/10 10:02 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
Posted By: Tim S.
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/06/10 10:04 PM
Quote:
Quote:
This guy www.moparponderosa.com sold one a few years ago i think. It was a Fury Hardtop, all original HEMI car. I saw the car but my memory is shaky. I think it was turquoise. had lots of paperwork.
I think that was Marvin's car, and it was a Dodge.
You're probably right, Polara. This was several years ago.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/06/10 10:05 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
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This car according to the book, was the "worlds first and fastest 426 Hemi car."
I call BS. This is yet another historically inaccurate book brought out by some know-nothing that had no intimate knowledge of Chrysler's involvement in drag racing. Speculation always trumps facts. We ALL know who has the real first Hemi car, now don't we? [sarcasm]
You seem to have all the "FACTS" so enlighten us please
Unless I'm missing something the only 64 Sport Fury's in the book are Max Wedges.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/06/10 11:39 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
What do oldtimers from the midwest have to do with hemi prototypes? This car has NEVER left the motorcity (THE CAR CAPITAL OF THE WORLD) Have you ever even looked at this car, other then the pictures posted here? All the info you and others know is what is on an IBM card. I guess the other 2% cars aren't hemi cars either since the IBM would reflect a MAX WEDGE. I have never said it was "THE FIRST" i did say it "COULD BE" please explain to me why its NOT
I don't have a VIN but this one is reported to be real (the VIN is anyway), it's formerly owned by Steve Attwell, now owned by a man in Washington state. Anyone know this one?
Engine
Posted By: curbman68
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 03:27 AM
Nice looking car, but is that the speedo cable coming out the hole where the transignitor wiring should be?
Beats me, I just took the picture and wandered off, I didn't ask any questions as the owner was involved in another conversation.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 05:59 AM
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Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:26 AM
"The last 10 cars are all "white" with "gold" interior Dodges (between 7/27 to 8/18)"
Just a thought but I wonder where they built these cars.The plant had to be down for changeover (3 weeks) at least part of the time listed.Clairpointe maybe? That may enter largely into the overall discussion on this post now that I think of it.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:53 AM
There are actually 14 Dodges HEMI hardtops white with the gold interior.
Yes, Hurst (in '64) was 13 miles as a crow flies from Reedman. I found an ad where they were promoting the "big secret" prizes for the Summernationals.
It appears they gave away Hurst sponsored Barracudas. (again)
There was only one HEMI sedan running at Pomona for the '64 Winternationals.
edit: wrong year/wrong event - there were NO HEMIs at 2/64 Winternationals
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 07:04 AM
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Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 07:11 AM
Quote:
I don't have a VIN but this one is reported to be real (the VIN is anyway), it's formerly owned by Steve Attwell, now owned by a man in Washington state. Anyone know this one?
Thanks for posting that car. Last year at the MATS some guy showed me a photo (not very good) of that car and said it was an original Hemi car. I wish I got his name. Anyway, I could not tell much by his picture. Yours are much better. It would be nice to know the vin of that car. Or the guy that owns it.
Posted By: 383man
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 07:13 AM
There is a red 64 Plymouth Hemi car here in Md owned by Jim Dowell the owner of Racer Brown cams. He had it out about 4 years ago but never brings it out anymore. All I know is he said it is a real one. Ron
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 07:35 AM
Post deleted by 64Post
Rico he's a very private person, I sent you a PM.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 07:36 AM
6 of the white & gold Dodges are "company cars"; there are 2 pairs based on "dealer" (department/company use?) numbers.
With the exception of the four "REEDMAN" cars the remaining 60 cars all have various zones and individual dealers all around the country.
Quote:
What is your point about Pomona?
I thought I had something close by to add - more on that later, but would the HEMI hardtops even been a pipedream with the sedans just being sorted out?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 07:42 AM
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Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 07:44 AM
Quote:
Dodge gave away 2 440 cars at the Winter Nats. One each to the winners of Stock Eliminator and Top Stock (Sox and Grove, respectively). Ronda won the Super Stock class and got the cuda.
NHRA 4th annual Winternationals were February 14-16 '64 - the Barracuda didn't exist yet. Neither did any of the HEMI cars sedan or hardtop listed in DD's book.
I think the dates and/or venues are getting a little mixed up, maybe on my part also.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 07:51 AM
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Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 07:51 AM
Quote:
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Rico he's a very private person, I sent you a PM.
Is it the "concrete guy"
You missed your calling for sure. CSI Dave
64, yes there are some folks here that might know of him, it's not a huge secret as to who he is, but some owners (I'm sure you can appreciate this) don't want their personal property details splashed around the internet. I was/am simply showing the owner some due respect. The car was displayed in public at a show so I consider the pics I posted are fair game.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 08:08 AM
I'd hazzard a guess that it was to build street cars (at least as streetable as the Max Wedges) to legalize the HEMI for NASCAR, to give in to the crying that it wasn't a "production" engine or what ever the NASCAR rule book spelled out. 34 of 70 cars have heaters, none have 999 paint or 999 interiors. Then when NASCAR ruled no HEMIs, the street car idea was canned, no need for '65 street HEMIs.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 08:15 AM
Quote:
I'd hazzard a guess that it was to build street cars (at least as streetable as the Max Wedges) to legalize the HEMI for NASCAR, to give in to the crying that it wasn't a "production" engine or what ever the NASCAR rule book spelled out. 34 of 70 cars have heaters, none have 999 paint or 999 interiors. Then when NASCAR ruled no HEMIs, the street car idea was canned, no need for '65 street HEMIs.
That thought is one that I agree with. Again, if you were just replacing max-wedge cars, why wouldn't you just build that number. Instead Chrysler built 35 of each dodge and plymouth hemi hardtops and 55 of each hemi post cars. The thought, that Chrysler was just trying to apease NASCAR sounds logical to me.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 08:25 AM
& Dodge advertised the '65 HEMI Coronet just like it was another engine choice for the Coronet. I'll take a look and see if these ads were throughout the model year or if they were only in print early & then dissappeared (after the "street car" idea was shelved as unnecessary?).
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 08:43 AM
4th Annual NHRA Winternationals
BIG GO WEST L.A. County Fairgrounds Pamona, CA
February 14, 15, 16, 1964
-- class -- prize -- sponsor -- driver -- engine --Top Gas Eliminator - '64 Ford Falcon Sprint hardtop - FORD & NHRA - Danny Ongias - Chevy
Top Fuel Eliminator - '64 Ford Falcon Sprint hardtop - FORD & NHRA - Jack Williams - Chrysler
Stock Eliminator -
'64 Dodge 440 hardtop 4-speed - HURST - Tom Grove - PlymouthFactory Stock Eliminator -
'64 Dodge 440 hardtop 4-speed - HURST - Ronnie Sox - MercuryCompetition Eliminator - 426 Plymouth Stage III engine - PLYMOUTH DEALERS - Charlie Smith - Chevy
Street Eliminator - 426 Plymouth Stage III engines - PLYMOUTH DEALERS - Ron Root - Dodge
6 Eliminator runner-ups - big 119 pc. Craftsman tool sets - SEARS
all 71 class trophies - AUTOLITE DIV. of FORD
door prize - '64 Mercury Comet Caliente - LINCOLN-MERCURY
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 08:49 AM
Wasn't Ronnie Sox racing a 64 Mercury for the 64 season, and if he won a brand new Hemi car from Chrysler (that didn't exist either yet) at the Winter-Nationals, maybe he received it later on, along with a new contact to drive for them in 65. So instead of him taking the Hemi Dodge that he supposedly won, he took a Hemi Plymouth and switched teams, (yeah I know it's a long shot, but it's possible).
And as far as those 10 extra white hardtops you're all talking about, are you 100% sure they were all Hemi cars, or just regular Polara 440 hardtops? You do know that Hurst had several promotional giveaways over the years right, and I can't see Chrysler handing out "Race Hemi cars" either to winner's from various races, there would have been some kind of print about that! Hell I remember seeing the ad "Win a new Street-Hemi motor" in the 66 magazine's, but I can't imagine them giving away complete running 426 Race Hemi cars?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 09:20 AM
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Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 09:31 AM
6bblgt, I like how you added in all that extra info & ad in, then high-lighted the 64 Polara 440 hardtop info, this only after I mentioned it in my post above, lol. And it still doesn't say anything about anyone winning any 64 Race Hemi vehicle's as a prize either! But it does say someone won two 426 Stage III engine's from Plymouth though!
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 09:35 AM
Any chance you can scan or photograph & post the picture/page?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 09:42 AM
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Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 09:46 AM
Quote:
6bblgt, I like how you added all that extra info in and high-lighted in about the 64 Polara 440 hardtop's, only after I mentioned it in my post above, lol. Still doesn't say anything about anyone winning any Race Hemi's though.
I'm digging through magazines trying to come up with accurate info, my computer has been locking up so I've posted after some typing and added some missing info.
Drag racing in '64 wasn't the big business it is today. Selling the prize car for gas money probably isn't too far from the truth, but there was prize money involved also. I wonder if Mercury would let him keep it? One of these magazines has to have award/prize/trophy presentation pics with the cars in the background. A voucher (in February) for a car not yet deteremined to be built does not sound logical.
These pics are from HOT ROD April '64. Looks to be one of the convertibles in the last pic. At this point I'll "assume" those are two 383 4-speed hardtops. & the two give-a-way Falcons in front of it?
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 10:05 AM
6bblgt, so are these some of the 10 extra white/gold 64 Polara 440 hardtop's that you guys have been talking about for the last few of pages. Because I recall you talking about Chrysler building 10 more extra cars that were white/gold 64 Dodge Polara's, (remember earlier on) and you then added these 10 extra units to the list of the 35 Hemi Dodge 440 hardtop's that were built mid-summer.
And 64Post, yes you can clearly see in the photo that photo was taken at the Winter-Nationals and those white/gold 64 Polara hardtop's were there. But would you happen to have any "engine shot's" of any of these 10 white/gold Polara hardtop's supplied by Hurst?
I honestly think that both of you guys got your info & facts mixed up on the time-lines & production dates of these Race Hemi hardtops & regular Polara 440 hardtop giveaway cars. That's what threw you guys off trying to figure everything out, but it's just an honest mistake, and it's no big deal.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 10:25 AM
I think someone was trying to make these give-a-way cars, HEMI cars. They are there at the event in mid-February of '64. There were NO HEMI drag cars at this point (maybe a test mule or two, but none of the production cars) let alone street cars to give to the top Mercury driver. From what I hear the DAYTONA 500 (same month - ran 2/23/64) was the big prize and getting enough engines and parts to Florida was a priority. The Daytona 500 is rumored to be the reason that a HEMI never made it into the Charger I show car. All the press and promotion for the car said it had one, but I don't think there is any evidence that it actually ever had a HEMI.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 10:32 AM
Here's another pic of the Dodge tow vehicle & Ford "give-a-way" cars.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 10:47 AM
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Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 12:30 PM
Here's a good article on the Hemi's debut in Nascar, (about half way down).
http://www.allpar.com/racing/petty-plymouth-racing.htmlI was wondering if anyone here knew someone that actually went to the 64 Daytona 500 race!
Posted By: wkroncke17
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 01:18 PM
Quote:
Ronnie was the one saying he won a Hemi Dodge, but there's no reference to when he said it. Who knows if he even saw a car?
Gotta get some sleep... and find another form of entertainment.
I just wanna thank you guys for staying up all night and debating this!! I really have enjoyed reading it all while havin a few cups of coffee!
I plan on posting a pic of my dads '64 Dodge Hemi (post) just to try to ad to the mix.....
Thanks guys!
Wally.
Posted By: PLATINUM6BBL
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 01:48 PM
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 02:01 PM
Good find on some racing from Detroit dragways, it shows two 64 Hemi sedan's with dates of March 7 & June 6 printed on the flyers, (time-line) at the bottom of this link.
http://www.waterwinterwonderland.com/drags.asp?id=1335&type=6Does anyone here got any old National Dragsters or Drag News issues from 1964, those newspapers would have dates, photo's & specific info in them. (lots on ebay I guess)
Quote:
Oh, and can you shoot me a picture of the passenger side inner fender ( top and inside view ) from the shock tower to the firewall?
Dave, I figure this is what you are looking for. No its not operational but it is there.
Posted By: SSDA5006
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 05:29 PM
Here's a 64 hemi hardtop at the WPC museum. Just took this photo last weekend. What's the story on this one? Listed as an A-864 package on loan from the Ronzello family. I assume since it's in the museum it must be an authentic car.
Quote:
I assume since it's in the museum it must be an authentic car.
I would never suggest making that assumption
Posted By: FC7cuda
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 05:58 PM
Quote:
Here's a 64 hemi hardtop at the WPC museum. Just took this photo last weekend. What's the story on this one? Listed as an A-864 package on loan from the Ronzello family. I assume since it's in the museum it must be an authentic car.
Nice looking car, I wish they had to hood up to show off the motor....should'nt it have the hemi hood scoops?
Tom
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:19 PM
That looks like Ralph Ronzelloes stock car. The stock cars ddn't use the hood scoop option. I took these engine photos a few years ago when it was at the Mopar Museum.
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:20 PM
another:
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:21 PM
Learning while I reading whith my coffee this morning (I stayed up til 1 reading this and Engel's 'complete book of stock-bodied drag racing).
What I surmise is in early 64 only mw stIII were available to the thinned heard of ss racers as many moved up to afx cars.
The hemi came out in february 64.
Rhonda and Leal chased the Hot Rod series and Rhonda ultimately was the points leader and won a Barracuda.
As the 64 season wore on lightweight hemi mopars turned the tide on the thunderbolts.
A speculative question here: What happened in the void of the approval of hemis for racing and the production of factory hemi cars?
My guess is that chrysler did not have a line-up of cars in the back lot, but did have crated motors available to quickly retrofit into the existing fleet already in the racers hands.
I don't have any of DD's books, are the production dates of the earliest 64 hemis available?
Were the earliest race hemis sold only with a bill of sale (not for street use?).
P>S> In the book i refrenced above ramchargers 980 car is pictured as well as mayflower V, both sedans.
Posted By: 426Savoy
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:35 PM
Unless I'm reading the DD book incorrectly, the first shipment date I saw was May 19.
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:46 PM
May 19, 64? That would leave about a 3 month lapse between approval of hemis and first production.
The book I referenced identifies the mayflower V as a lightweight aluminum hemi.
Can anyone verify when he recieved it, and dates it was campaigned.
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 06:54 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I assume since it's in the museum it must be an authentic car.
I would never suggest making that assumption
A lot of questionable things in the Chrysler Museum.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 07:15 PM
Quote:
another:
Clone made from Petty parts and pieces acquired many years later.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 08:33 PM
Quote:
Good find on some racing from Detroit dragways, it shows two 64 Hemi sedan's with dates of March 7 & June 6 printed on the flyers, (time-line) at the bottom of this link.
http://www.waterwinterwonderland.com/drags.asp?id=1335&type=6
Does anyone here got any old National Dragsters or Drag News issues from 1964, those newspapers would have dates, photo's & specific info in them. (lots on ebay I guess)
The Sunday March 7th flyer would be 1965. I've got early & late '60s Nat'l Dragster, but none from the summer of '64.
The Saturday July 4th "new '64-1/2 HEMI" is 1964.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/07/10 09:01 PM
Quote:
Clone made from Petty parts and pieces acquired many years later.
It appears to have a BS made up story (history), but does it have a HEMI '64 hardtop VIN#?
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/07/10 09:45 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
Dave, is there any other pictures i can get for you?
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 03:57 AM
In
this article dave f says "...photographic archives can prove, the Race Hemi drag cars were also ready for action by the end of February 1964".
Above, first hemi production was may 19. Does anyone else think these first race hemi's were retrofitted mw sIII's?
If not what were they and is there any ibm cards to support their existance?
If I'm missing something, please step in.
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:05 AM
Good Thread !
This article is in Nov 64 issue of Hop-Up .
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:08 AM
love the trailer
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:10 AM
Yep...that washer welded on the wing nut will keep em out
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:13 AM
you think they would have put a cover on the trans park cable hole.
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:16 AM
next page
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:19 AM
Hop-Up mag was published in New York.This issue is Vol 3 # 25 ...kinda wierd # system.
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:21 AM
Thank you f/m! From the article it appears at least one wedge ht was converted to a hemi.
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:22 AM
Pulisher was Jamie Publications.They also put out Speed Mechanics and Custom Craft.There are some good pics and articles in these old mags it's too bad they were not printed on better quality paper.
Quote:
love the trailer
Yea, nothing special for sure....AMHIK! 2,000 pounder but trustworthy and tows great!
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 04:55 AM
Quote:
In this article dave f says "...photographic archives can prove, the Race Hemi drag cars were also ready for action by the end of February 1964".
Above, first hemi production was may 19. Does anyone else think these first race hemi's were retrofitted mw sIII's?
If not what were they and is there any ibm cards to support their existance?
If I'm missing something, please step in.
This has already been discussed, the first four Hemi cars were the 2% Sedans that started off as MW cars.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/08/10 05:14 AM
Post deleted by 64Post
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 05:56 AM
Two items I'm unclear on:
MW conversions were only into 2% cars?
Is there a chance some of the 64.5's were crushed by chrysler when the 65's came out.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 06:10 AM
Here is a bit more from the 2005 Hot Rod Mag "Where it all Began" issue titled the 1st on page 25.Quote: "HRH's Ray Brock handed in the film in what appears to be a Ramchargers Dodge on Feb 10,1964". The 2% car? The picture clearly shows a Maxi car brake line and cable entry for the ign box on the pass side.It does not look to have a modified shock tower with the edge cut off,however the angle of the photo may be in play as far as that goes.Car appears to have a fender tag also.Carter carbs are present.Another pic on the page show a Nascar engine with a casting date of Feb 3 1964.In the mags first Hemi article April 64 it shows a block cast Dec 30,1963
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 06:21 AM
Quote:
Two items I'm unclear on:
MW conversions were only into 2% cars?
Is there a chance some of the 64.5's were crushed by chrysler when the 65's came out.
IMO the answer is no on both counts.Some went to the dealers and were sold as the car was I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.That car is still alive somewhere everyone who ain't talking here knows it.The car is a 100% factual car that I looked at, rode in and was on tape racing at Motor City Dragway in 1965.Sold right off the floor (not the front row as I mentioned earlier) of McCoullogh-Ricci Chrysler-Plymouth
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/08/10 06:35 AM
Post deleted by 64Post
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 06:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Two items I'm unclear on:
MW conversions were only into 2% cars?
Is there a chance some of the 64.5's were crushed by chrysler when the 65's came out.
IMO the answer is no on both counts.Some went to the dealers and were sold as the car was I mentioned in one of my earlier posts.That car is still alive somewhere everyone who ain't talking here knows it.The car is a 100% factual car that I looked at, rode in and was on tape racing at Motor City Dragway in 1965.Sold right off the floor (not the front row as I mentioned earlier) of McCoullogh-Ricci Chrysler-Plymouth
I don't think they were crushed either, as most of them are shown going to dealers across the country.
I don't doubt the Ricci/Dill car exists. In fact, the car should be easy enough to verify through DD's book.
The Ricci car is not the Dill car.Sorry if I misled you.
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/08/10 06:42 AM
Post deleted by 64Post
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/08/10 07:01 AM
The Ricci car was from Detroit.The Dill car from Minnesota I think.Sorry Dave, whats a obs*^&%?
Dave,
You still haven't answered any of my questions? Everything you have asked for i have given. Im not trying to hide or mislead any "FACTS". It is what it is. You obviously cannot prove otherwise or can anyone else. Thanks for your time
Posted By: 64Post
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/08/10 11:32 PM
Post deleted by 64Post
Dave,
So who is this "inner circle" since you are obviously not part of it? Or better yet Im sure if they have all this proprietary info that you "claim" they will know how to get in touch with me. my name is listed in my profile as well as the phone book. Let me just ask you one question: Is it or is it not a chrysler enginnering vehicle?
Good day
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 12:10 AM
I appreciate the info I was able to gleen from this thread.
In 64 I was 7 years old, yet my favorite cars were from 62 to 68 as I followed super stock drag racing by getting discard magazines from a older neighbor kid.
Occasionally I got to see some racing.
I've been fortunate enough to have started in this hobby with a 383 car back in 73 and have had a few performance models because I stayed with the hobby.
I recently picked up a gennie mw block to build a clone as my finances and space will not allow another real car in the fleet.
I will say I find it odd (and too bad) that info is not shared well on these rare cars (mw/hemi 62-71) as they are on other models.
Never had I been snubbed until I got into a performance car.
Don't get me wrong there are a majority of people that freely share to the betterment of all, there are exceptions however. Seems like more so since the mid 90's.
I think everyone should chill and remember why we're in the hobby. If it for the fun or history, or if it's the profit.
My own feeling is that the info should be freely shared between hobbiests and the profiteers can pound salt.
Posted By: sixpakdodge
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 12:28 AM
Quote:
Dave,
So who is this "inner circle" since you are obviously not part of it? Or better yet Im sure if they have all this proprietary info that you "claim" they will know how to get in touch with me. my name is listed in my profile as well as the phone book. Let me just ask you one question: Is it or is it not a chrysler enginnering vehicle?
Good day
Chrysler Engineering means nothing. A friend has been driving a '65 A990 Belvedere for the original owner for the past 30 years. It was an original Chrysler Engineering car. It only had 19 miles on the odometer when they got it from Chrysler and there was nothing special about the car. It looked like every other white/fawn 4-speed Belvedere they built.
Just because it was a Chrysler Engineering car, doesn't mean they did top secret things with it.
Prove it?
Ok guys lets get your IBM cards out, how many 64, 65 cars have a region of #15 and a dealer code of #81101. Lets see how many guys wanna post up what they have. I did and its there for all to see.
While were at it how many 64 max wedge cars came with transistor boxes from the factory? I bet theres a bunch of these.
you guys are making this way too easy.
Hey peanut gallery (inner circle lurkers) lets get some input from you guys too. or do i have to pay for it
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 01:29 AM
prochargedhemi, I was just curious about a couple of things and have a few of questions myself about your 64 Hemi Belvedere hardtop. I think you stated earlier in this thread that the car never left the Michigan area, correct. So do you know any of the previous owners, any past race history, or any race names that were painted on this car before at one time?
Again I'm just curious on what you know about this 64 Hemi Plymouth hardtop, because it seems that it might have been connected to someone close to the factory, or at least an independent racer early on in it's life?
First owner = never lettered (no idea how he aquired it)
second owner = never raced never lettered
third owner = matched race husband&wife team lettered as you see it now
Posted By: Furyman
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 01:37 AM
It would make sense that if the last MW's that came off the line were converted to Hemi's they would have to have late build dates.Where is your dads car on the DD list...is it one of the last? A couple of guys here have the list....how many have later VIN's ?
Does your dad still have the 64 ?
LAST POST
I GUESS YOU GOTTA PAY TO PLAY!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 03:03 AM
Nice article there Furyman!
Quote:
It would make sense that if the last MW's that came off the line were converted to Hemi's they would have to have late build dates.Where is your dads car on the DD list...is it one of the last? A couple of guys here have the list....how many have later VIN's ?
Does your dad still have the 64 ?
This makes sence, maybe he should ask DD if it shows up on the Max-Wedge list, because this would explain the Hemi conversion done later on by someone perhaps with connections to the factory that did all the modification's to the car? And yes I think he said that the Belvedere hardtop is still in the family.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 03:44 AM
Quote:
It would make sense that if the last MW's that came off the line were converted to Hemi's they would have to have late build dates.Where is your dads car on the DD list...is it one of the last? A couple of guys here have the list....how many have later VIN's ?
Does your dad still have the 64 ?
That car is basically in the middle of the Superstock III build. It was supposedly shipped on January 15, 1964 It is number 19 of 39 cars built in the Plymouth Belvedere Super Stock III. The last one built was February 14Th of 1964. The earliest car was December 18th of 1963. So I guess you could say that it was a fairly average car. Not early, not late. Right in the middle. The earliest Hemi cars (according to production schedule from DD) were in June, and July for the Belvederes. SO a HUGE GAP in time. That kinda shoots the max-wedge to hemi theory down. Although who knows, I don't. Hopefully someone will chime in.
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 03:53 AM
I don't know if you'd find the info you're seeking in the publication and sometimes history on cars are lost.
fwiw in might be worth the effort to pick around
dd's site and maybe invest in some of his books.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 03:59 AM
Quote:
I don't know if you'd find the info you're seeking in the publication and sometimes history on cars are lost.
fwiw in might be worth the effort to pick around dd's site and maybe invest in some of his books.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 04:15 AM
Does any one know if the region-15 dealer-81101 is "Chrysler Engineering"?
Are the 2% cars still in existence?
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know if you'd find the info you're seeking in the publication and sometimes history on cars are lost.
fwiw in might be worth the effort to pick around dd's site and maybe invest in some of his books.
Good advice ..... '64 hardtops had dual exhaust & full interiors ..... sounds like a "street car" to me.
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/09/10 04:28 AM
Post deleted by hemicar1971
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 04:32 AM
Quote:
Does any one know if the region-15 dealer-81101 is "Chrysler Engineering"?
Are the 2% cars still in existence?
Good advice ..... '64 hardtops had dual exhaust & full interiors ..... sounds like a "street car" to me.
6bblgt, how do you figure this on your last point? He's posted pictures of all the modifications done on the car, he posted pic's of the inverted shock-tower, pic's of the firewall, said it's had an aluminum front-end and Hemi engine installed early on in it's life. This to me would be one hell of a street-car if someone built this thing! So the question is who did all of the work to this 64 Belvedere hardtop, someone in the Detroit area must remember this thing?
hemicar1971, so what's the story on that blown 64 Dodge sedan that you posted, and where was that pic taken?
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 04:41 AM
two stand alone questions & a statement about HEMI hardtops after some reading on DD's website
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 04:50 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Does any one know if the region-15 dealer-81101 is "Chrysler Engineering"?
Are the 2% cars still in existence?
Good advice ..... '64 hardtops had dual exhaust & full interiors ..... sounds like a "street car" to me.
6bblgt, how do you figure this? He's posted pictures of all the modifications done on the car, he posted pic's of the inverted shock-tower, pic's of the firewall, and said it had an aluminum front-end and hemi engine installed early on in it's life. This would be one hell of a street car if someone built this thing! so the question is who did all this work, someone in the Detroit area must remember this thing?
hemicar1971, so what's the story on that blown 64 Dodge sedan that you posted and where was that pic taken?
Someone in Detroit surely must remember that car in one form or another. It still doesn't mean that it was a "factory Hemi car" It has some confusing stuff on and about it, no doubt. Could that stuff been added later? Definitely. I wish we had some history on the previous owners of the car. That would help. But again, the car shows a mid-build, max-wedge. Nothing more, nothing less. That does not mean that something did not happen in the early years. Chrysler as we all know did some strange stuff, so you can never say never. I would like to see some history on the car. Other than that, I would still like to know what happened to this original thread? We have gotten sidetracked. Why were these cars built, and who knows about them?
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 06:01 AM
So who's to say that someone who worked for Chrysler at the time on the assembly line decided to order & build this car for themselves? Just the same way those other 4 Hemi mule cars were converted, because it's in the same "time frame" that those cars were built.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 06:27 AM
Quote:
So who's to say that someone who worked for Chrysler on the assembly at the time bought this or built this car the way the other 4 Hemi mule cars that were built? It's in the same time frame that those were built?
That is my point exactly. We can't say anything other than what is subjection at this point. Until something shows up differently, i.e. first owner and documentation, then it ((the car) is just a big question mark.????? I have no problem with it either way, but show me something other than speculation and I will buy into it. That car is not my concern at the moment. The thread is about 64' Hemi Hardtops and how they got here and why. Not and individual car and it's authentication. Right now, I would like to hear about all of them, not one single ambiguious car. There are enough people around that can properly decode that car. Give Greg Lane a call. PM me and I will give you that number. Other than that, why were ALL of those cars built and what was their purpose? Again, was it to apease NASCAR for the 1965 Season? Ford was complaining loudly about the Hemi, could it have been to say that the hemi cars, were production cars for Nascar purposes, knowing how late they were assembled. I mean look at how close to the 65 year that they were made. Then when Nascar outlawed the Hemi for the 65' season, that's when Chrysler killed the program and went drag racing with the 65' A-990 cars. Just thoughts...
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 06:31 AM
There's something about the car. There's no telling here whether anyone really knows what it started as, or if it's evolution has been lost.
I think that based on timelines and such it just might hold some secrets.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 06:35 AM
My post on page 5 spoke about the Ramchargers car as reported by Ray Brock of HRM.The picture clearly shows NO Hemi mods to that car and shows that the 1st of the 2% cars was a Maxi car.Other than the Hemi engine (w/carters in the pic),the ign box wiring and the wheelbase change they were not converted.That is my point.It is accepted as the first Hemi car by most people.
I just received my DD book today.I have just quickly scanned it.If I read it correctly it shows no lightweight 2dr HT Belvedere's and no 4spd's.
Sorry that is incorrect.
On the subject of dealers and exec's having pull it is 100% true esp in those days.Anything was possible after the parts were available.The stories are almost unbelievable but many times have been found to be true.Do I believe that the records are even correct? Yes but not 100%. I would like to check my old cars against the records and see if they completely jive with what I know about them.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 06:35 AM
No question about that, until something shows up that is concrete, we only have a theory. And right now, at least for me, I have bigger questions. That car could possibly or not hold an answer. Time will tell.
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 06:44 AM
Rico,
One thing is stuck in my mind. I wonder if they were a phantom. To built those cars late was bad business.
Once the cards were punched out can it be varified they were all built and shipped all over the country?
With the 65 model year in the planning phase I find it unlikely that much effort was spent filling this run.
I don't know if the known cars are sprinkled all through the so# (vin?) range, or not.
One thing for sure is there are not many around today and I find it very unlikely that they all went to the tracks and were wasted.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 06:44 AM
with most of the people gone that were involved we may never know the complete story.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 07:18 AM
What I can see on the Plymouth side (since I don't have any dodge stuff) is that the so# are scattered all over as well as production dates and dealership codes. WHich makes me think that because of the even numbers, Chrysler could have sent one of the cars to assorted dealers around the US and it would not hurt anyone. And then Chrysler has and can say that the Hemi is a production car for NASCAR. No dealer as I see it got 2 cars. Why is that? You would think that someone would go hey, we got a hot car here and order more than one. That goes back to my theory that they were just made to apease NASCAR and a production count so that the Hemis could run in the races. Otherwise if Chrysler didn't produce the 180 cars (total dodge and Plymouth) then maybe they couldn't run in NASCAR.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 07:54 AM
Let's not forget the NHRA.If you recall they made Ford build 50(or less lol)T-bolts just a year earlier.That might have been in play here.
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 07:59 AM
That is my thinking. Did they actually build them?
Was it a paper trail smoke screen?
To me it seems likely the earliest ones (feb to may) were converted mw and then
some of the production run cars were built and went to dealers or racers.
I base this on the re-tooling required late in the production year, the desire for the hemi to be raced (and nothing more than my convoluted thoughts).
Some pics on this
Link, all known cars?
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 09:00 AM
Quote:
Let's not forget the NHRA.If you recall they made Ford build 50(or less lol)T-bolts just a year earlier.That might have been in play here.
I think there were a total of 111 Thunder-bolts built in 1964, they were built in two batches.
Quote:
That is my thinking.
Did they actually build them?
Was it a paper trail smoke screen?
Yeah I'm starting to think all these production number's for those 70 units claimed to be for 64 Hemi hardtop built are fudged figures! So where the hell are they all then, you would think more than just a couple of them survived today, and more people would have seen them over the years? (unless there is actual proof of their VIN#'s, build & shipping dates). They probably just built a handful of units, then stopped production and started gearing up for the 65 model run.
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/09/10 10:58 AM
Post deleted by hemicar1971
Posted By: ThermoQuad
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 12:18 PM
Quote:
Here's a 64 hemi hardtop at the WPC museum. Just took this photo last weekend. What's the story on this one? Listed as an A-864 package on loan from the Ronzello family. I assume since it's in the museum it must be an authentic car.
From my research in the 80's about Chrysler Super Stock cars I believe this car to be the real deal.
I was the feature editor for Classic Chrysler Quarterly, I did a lot of research and kept my files...
Summer 1988 issue.
"When Chrysler began to build hemi powered cars in 1964 for Grand National Racing a "Track Package" was developed to give a racer a complete car. On March 2,1964 a price bulletin was issued covering the new super commando hemi head engine designed for drag racing competition.. in addition the bulletin stated the single 4 barrel track option version for this engine was available by ordering the necessary conversion package from Chrysler p/n2532496. this was only available on 4speed steel body Belvedere hardtop.
Chrysler did not start producing "track cars" until May-June of 1964."
Fall 1987 CCQ
"There is no list of race or street hemis production numbers that can be believed as 100% correct. Chrysler kept a fairly good record of models shipped to customers but poor record keeping of models produced as preproduction prototypes, engineering cars, exported cars and cars produced in Canada. Production for 1964 & 65 Super Stock cars is believed to be 271 engines for 1964 and 360 engine for 1965. the is good indications that 50 Dodge Coronets and 15 Plymouth Belvederes were equipped with the 426 race hemi in 1964."
From 1987 I have a 5 page hand written letter from Ralph Ronzello regarding the car...
In the letter according to his conversations with Maxwell "Track cars from Chrysler were all built and sold with the dual carb setup and the track option was sent along with the car to be installed by the racer."
More notes
Nascar X-9 race car, 2 air cleaners shipped with car for short & long tracks. Valve covers are made form 3 pieces of welded aluminum.
According to an Chrysler internal document 660342
"the production of several hundred engines was competed by the end of 1964 model year."
Whats the deal with "64post" deleting his posts???
There is more, I don't have time right now to scan the documents, but if you guys play nice about this I will take the time.
Some of you are not being nice.... 
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 04:40 PM
Anything you have on these cars would be appreciated. I will be "play nice" I promise.........
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 05:10 PM
Not to start anything but it is well known that Ford played with the numbers on the T-bolts. Double counting the same cars in some cases.
My original post was not to verify the car here that everyone is questioning it was to state the facts as I knew them.The 2 dr Ht Belv I spoke of was returned from a Nascar team and sold as new at a Chrysler dealer (even with slight mods).It was late in the year after the Nascar ban.If 1 car was returned I am sure there were more.
That would at least bring in to play the idea that during the year cars that were wrecked were replaced.No Nascar teams ran sedans only hardtops. Cars built in June would be ready for the second half of the Nascar season.Perhaps Nascar wanted some HT cars built.
One more point.At that time the Nichols team controlled the distribution of Nascar parts and likely cars.That would be the reason cars were not shipped to the south in larger numbers.
When the Ronzello car surfaced I was sure it was the same car I spoke of but it is not.A similar story and a similar looking car but not the same car.
Posted By: mr_340
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 05:52 PM
Quote:
There was also one car at the Hemi Reunion that was a real 1964 Hemi built car. It was restored by Doug Miller and Ray Deprie and was sold at the Meccum auction the summer before. It was a red car under one of the tents. I believe the car was found in New York state.
Was it this car? This is a sedan. I wouldn't think I would have missed a HT, but this was the only one I could find in my photos that seemed to fit. I'll check with Stewart P. to see if he has a picture of it.
Posted By: mr_340
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 05:54 PM
Side view.
Quote:
Side view.
Based on the dip in the center of the scoop I'd guess it's a glass scoop?
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 07:23 PM
I would attribute the sway backed hood scoop to shoddy metal work. I see a lot of restored scoops turning out that way. I have the original magazine article of the Mayflower '64 hemi sedan and you can clearly see that the hood scoop was all jacked up in the center trying to gain a little more air. That is the legitimate car.
Quicksilver. I am not bagging on the car or calling it a fake, just observing. I have seen and studied ALLOT of original 64-67 hood scoops because I used to sell metal replicas. Most I've seen that looked like that one turned out to be fiberglass, but originals being thin/fragile aluminum, it's certainly possible that the center sway on that one was caused by heavy hands. In fact I have mint original aluminum scoop hanging here next to me on the shop wall to compare it to.
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/09/10 08:21 PM
Post deleted by hemicar1971
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/09/10 10:00 PM
Quote:
From my research in the 80's about Chrysler Super Stock cars I believe this car to be the real deal.
I was the feature editor for Classic Chrysler Quarterly, I did a lot of research and kept my files...
Summer 1988 issue.
"When Chrysler began to build hemi powered cars in 1964 for Grand National Racing a "Track Package" was developed to give a racer a complete car. On March 2,1964 a price bulletin was issued covering the new super commando hemi head engine designed for drag racing competition.. in addition the bulletin stated the single 4 barrel track option version for this engine was available by ordering the necessary conversion package from Chrysler p/n2532496. this was only available on 4speed steel body Belvedere hardtop.
Chrysler did not start producing "track cars" until May-June of 1964."
Fall 1987 CCQ
"There is no list of race or street hemis production numbers that can be believed as 100% correct. Chrysler kept a fairly good record of models shipped to customers but poor record keeping of models produced as preproduction prototypes, engineering cars, exported cars and cars produced in Canada. Production for 1964 & 65 Super Stock cars is believed to be 271 engines for 1964 and 360 engine for 1965. the is good indications that 50 Dodge Coronets and 15 Plymouth Belvederes were equipped with the 426 race hemi in 1964."
From 1987 I have a 5 page hand written letter from Ralph Ronzello regarding the car...
In the letter according to his conversations with Maxwell "Track cars from Chrysler were all built and sold with the dual carb setup and the track option was sent along with the car to be installed by the racer."
More notes
Nascar X-9 race car, 2 air cleaners shipped with car for short & long tracks. Valve covers are made form 3 pieces of welded aluminum.
According to an Chrysler internal document 660342
"the production of several hundred engines was competed by the end of 1964 model year."
Whats the deal with "64post" deleting his posts???
There is more, I don't have time right now to scan the documents, but if you guys play nice about this I will take the time.
Some of you are not being nice....
Thanks for chiming in with your post, and yes if you have anymore additional information regarding the 64 Hemi Dodge & Plymouth hardtops & sedans built. Anything like TSB/technical service bulletins, factory photo's, or any other interesting documents/data that you might have from Chrysler would be greatly appreciated!
And yes it does get a little heated on here sometimes. 
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/10/10 12:34 AM
Post deleted by hemicar1971
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 01:13 AM
Post it please,
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 01:22 AM
Yeah Scott I know. I do make and restore them as well and it that is a tough piece to restore once it is really stretched out. I do have plenty of originals myself. If you have ever looked at the restored Bud Fauble 330 Hemi Dodge, it has a really raunchy scoop on it. We looked at the car back a few years at Carlise expo center and it almost touched the hood it was so bad, but the rest of the car is beautiful! JC.
Posted By: FC7cuda
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 01:23 AM
Quote:
Maybe someone can keep score in this thread. Meaning taking all the information and making a list of all the possible and known 1964 Hemi Cars. Put each cars information in a folder and try to amass the amount that possibly was built by Chrysler. It will have to be someone with passion for these cars and hold a vast knowledge of these cars.
A 64 Hemi Registry
I didn't realize it was you (Tinman)
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 04:43 AM
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 04:47 AM
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 04:49 AM
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 05:01 AM
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 05:03 AM
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 05:09 AM
Quote:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/featu...edge/index.html
BINGO! The cars were all built for the NHRA. Now we are on to something. The Aluminum cars were running S/S and the "all steel" cars were running a lessor class in NHRA. By the way, I just ordered my 3rd book from Darrell Davis. This one on the Dodge Superstocks. Can't wait to get it. You guys that are interested should get some of his stuff. The books are very informative. Now, I wonder how many cars are really left?
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 06:12 AM
Summer 1988 issue.
"When Chrysler began to build hemi powered cars in 1964 for Grand National Racing a "Track Package" was developed to give a racer a complete car. On March 2,1964 a price bulletin was issued covering the new super commando hemi head engine designed for drag racing competition.. in addition the bulletin stated the single 4 barrel track option version for this engine was available by ordering the necessary conversion package from Chrysler p/n2532496. this was only available on 4speed steel body Belvedere hardtop.
Chrysler did not start producing "track cars" until May-June of 1964."
Looks like Nascar for the Belvedere.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 06:38 AM
I just noticed the post about the 440-6 72 Charger."Sunroofcuda" posted the window sticker.On the list is "company car".At the top the code 81100 and to the right is 15.That's Detroit region-15/engineering-81100.Sold from the St Louis assembly plant to Chrysler Corp.
Looks to be relevant to our discussion here.
Quote:
http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/classic-muscle-cars/1964-dodge-426-hemi.htm
Martin,
That's the car (of course it's a sedan not a hard top) that was sold at the AZ BJ auction a couple auctions back, it was raced as the "Snorkasaurus III" back when it was new, reportably restored by Top Fuel crew chief Dale Armstrong. It's a nicely restored cars with the aluminum front end etc. It did have some reproduction engine parts (intake, etc.) but was a pretty nice example.
Same cars engine
Same cars Exhaust (had the single tail pipe/ transverse muffler setup)
Other side
Posted By: FC7cuda
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 08:24 AM
Correct exhaust for 64 Hemi HARDTOP
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 08:35 AM
Quote:
Quote:
http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/classic-muscle-cars/1964-dodge-426-hemi.htm
Martin,
That's the car (of course it's a sedan not a hard top) that was sold at the AZ BJ auction a couple auctions back, it was raced as the "Snorkasaurus III" back when it was new, reportably restored by Top Fuel crew chief Dale Armstrong. It's a nicely restored cars with the aluminum front end etc. It did have some reproduction engine parts (intake,
etc.) but was a pretty nice example.
As IV
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 08:46 AM
Quote:
I just noticed the post about the 440-6 72 Charger."Sunroofcuda" posted the window sticker.On the list is "company car".At the top the code 81100 and to the right is 15.That's Detroit region-15/engineering-81100.Sold from the St Louis assembly plant to Chrysler Corp.
Looks to be relevant to our discussion here.
How are we getting ENGINEERING from this?
The '72 Charger appears to be a company car for a Chrysler executive, the execs name and current car's VIN# is on the bottom of the window sticker. St. Louis built car shipped to Detroit for said exec.
DETROIT is region 42
Earlier in this post we have a claim that 81101 is Chrysler Engineering ... is that true?
There is only one '64 HEMI for 81101 a Dodge 330 sedan?
There are NO '64 HEMI cars with 81100 for the dealer code, which appears to be "company exec. car" or similar.
Posted By: QuickSilver
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 01:50 PM
Well I can say that there is at least one(1) 1964 Hemi Belvedere 2dr hdtp car built with the region 15,81101 engineering code and that is my friends PP1 red car everyone is blowing off as just a lowly Max Wedge car. You can't argue with the IBM card. How many 64 Max cars had that 81101 engineering code? One(1) and I believe there is a very good reason for this. As A864 Hemi production drew near, the max wedge was fading away. Why is it so hard to believe that as those mass production dates got closer the ones in may through june, at some point those engineers had to figure out what it was going to take to fit the A864 Hemi engine pkge into these "B" body cars and make it reasonable to wrench on. You can't argue the fact that at least one other car which turned out to be one of the 2% cars were pulled from the assembly line the same day. After all there were only 10 more aluminum cars built after his and to me that is right were my buds car fits in the so called "Hemi" time line. It only makes sense when here you have an already basically built lightweight car to start with. Yes the shock tower in at least one of the 2% cars was not modified, but that modification was going to be necessary to build the large production run of cars coming up. Well they had to start somewhere and I believe that is where my friends PP1 red car enters this picture. Over the years I have had the opportunity to view a lot of cars and never has that shock tower mod turned up like his is, because it was the first one modified while they figured out what it was going to take to make the production run cars for 1964. I have grown up around his car and I have spent a very good deal of time with it over the years and when you take in everything as a whole it becomes reasonably clear that this car is basically a virgin survivor lightweight. The Aluminum has never been taken off, it still has red over spray where it should, it even has the aluminum stone shields in place. How many of these have been seen? The "K" frame appears to be original and looks like it has been there since day one. Of course there is also the neat aircraft type brake lines on the rear axle and as a result it also has these lower shock extenders that move the shocks further back! Can this be yet another form of suspension tricks that those slick engineering guys were trying out? Who knows. You guys are correct when you make statements such as it is not a production Hemi steel nose hardtop, when in fact it is a Hemi prototype, 81101. Thanks for the rant. JC.
Posted By: ThermoQuad
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 01:56 PM
A short story:
What I learned from the hand written 1987 letter from Ralph Ronzello regarding the 1964 Hemi Belvedere track car currently in the Chrysler museum…
NOTE: I am not enjoying having to write this disclaimer.
DISCLAIMER: I am taking what is written in the letter the truth as he has no reason to lie-do you understand that all you moparts policemen??
It’s 1987 and these are just used cars at this point…. I did not inspect the car or get Galen Govier’s stamp of approval. I apologize to the majority of you whom are enjoying the sharing of information and don’t act like tools. Remember I am recounting a hand written letter and I am not investigating what is written, just reporting it
The car in the museum is a real 4 sp hemi belvedere [former drag racing car of unknown heritage] with the track option package & short track air breather. It was restored as a track option car as built by Chrysler BEFORE it was modified to be raced. This is the only known example of a 64 hemi hardtop 4 speed with the track option. It was called the “track option” not a NASCAR car, and only avail on a belvedere 4 speed hardtop steel car.
The track option parts were collected with lots of help from Petty Enterprises and the car was restored as a NASCAR track car. [Did you even know there was a track option in 1964-65?] The real hemi car is a former drag race car. There are no reproduction parts, all parts are the real deal. The car has orig 64 hemi exhaust with the track extension going out the side under the doors. The correct hand built 3 piece welded track valve covers have 2 breathers & a tall oil fill neck tube. They are not a stamping and weigh 1.5 lbs. The authentic wheels were reproduced by Clemont [I can’t decipher the handwriting so the spelling may be off] Wheel Industries. The 15x8 wheels with a 4-5/16 offset allows the stock car Goodyear tires to clear the stock body and suspension.
The track option part numbers
2468904 Engine code 09 12.5:1 for manual trans $1750.00 retail $1435.00net
2563496 Track code X9 $369.50 retail $ 303.00 net
1964 Track package:
1964 Hemi Belvedere w/ dual quad hemi under the hood
Alum single carb intake w/ Holley center float carb manual choke-shipped in trunk
Special oil pan
Special exhaust
Sway bar and large brakes – actual config unknown
Short & long track air breathers
Internal engine modifications
The family visited with the Petty’s during the research phase of the restoration.
From the horse’s mouth [as told in the letter] Maurice Petty states:
The car that won the 64 Daytona 500 was a body in white. They had 5 or 6 cars in 64 and only 2 actually arrived from Chrysler with a hemi under the hood as those 2 cars were built in may/june of 64 [like the museum car and the rest of the 64 hemi cars.]
Stock motor mounts were used as well as stock headers.[I do not understand what "stock" headers were] The battery was relocated to behind the left front wheel. Maurice suggested that Chrysler lost interest in making the track car factory package since the race cars got cut up and reworked so much that is was cheaper for everyone to go back to the body in white stock car with the engine in a crate. The cars were required at the time to be raced in full trim which presented some challenges keeping the stuff on the car at track speeds. Any Petty records/pictures of the 64-67 years are gone as they were lost in a fire in the 70’s.
As for the 660342 Chrysler Engineering white paper - I have to read it first and attempt to scan it.
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 02:34 PM
Tom,my intent is not to bash the Ronzello car it is a very nice piece and a very impressive time capsule.However it was not built by Chrysler or the Petty's. No one is playing Moparts police here,just trying to get the facts straight.After reading your post I am convinced that the "track car" has been cloned into the car that I spoke of earlier in several posts.Problem is that that is not how the car was built or sold off the show room floor at a Detroit Chry-Ply dealer.It is not the same car. That car had the "Petty floor" but NOT the track pack as sold at the dealer.Again the location of that car is known.
As far as what does engr have to do with anything the point was that that was a car that was not supposed to be built at all.440-6 engines were cancelled for the 72 model year.That was only reason for the post.
Quote:
As IV
Yes, had a brain fart, same car
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 07:38 PM
If anyone is interested i have a original Chysler corp issued 10 or so page supplement that appears to been given with a purchase of a 64 race hemi Dodge.
Its starts off with congradulating on a purchase of the car lists some of the car options and lists very detailed engine specs with part #s.
I have had this booklet for over 23 years and was given to me from someone who worked for RacerBrown when the were in Ca.
I can scan it from cover to cover if their is any interest when i get a chance.
Absalutely! Fire up that scanner!
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 07:56 PM
That would be great. Scans should also be sent to alaska ta as he has a nice literature library on line.
Posted By: LO23M8B
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 08:10 PM
Count me in on that deal!
Posted By: FC7cuda
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 08:12 PM
Quote:
Count me in on that deal!
Me too. 
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 08:36 PM
YES Please!!
Posted By: Frito
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 09:14 PM
One more if you will. Thanks
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 11:36 PM
Commando Option Price in Feb 64
$482 or $415 <- Link
Super Comando Option Price in Mar 64
$1058 <-Link
Why the name and price change? Hemi instead of Wedge?
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/10/10 11:39 PM
I will try and post the booklet info tomorrow morn, as far as i can see the called the 64 Dodge hemi a "Hemi Charger"
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 05:30 AM
Quote:
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/featu...ando/index.html
Ain't this so cool, hey kid you want to come see a "space age" engine, lol.
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 03:28 PM
Ok, this is the manual cover to cover....
.jpg "5797181-racehemi1_0001(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 03:29 PM
next
.jpg "5797186-racehemi1_0004(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 03:30 PM
...
.jpg "5797188-racehemi1_0005(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 03:32 PM
....
.jpg "5797191-racehemi1_0006(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 03:40 PM
Im having a problem resizing the other 6 texts, this amendment is dated 5-64
.jpg "5797206-racehemi1_0003(Large).jpg")
Posted By: srt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 05:11 PM
Thank you for taking the time!!
DOes there happen to be a date on any part of the pamphlet? (maybe the back cover?).
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/11/10 06:30 PM
I was just curious on how the restoration of a fellow moparts member aluminum 64 Dodge 330 sedan is coming along? Does anyone here know if this car has had any new updates done to it lately?
The Nice Guys.
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops *DELETED* - 02/12/10 12:36 AM
Post deleted by hemicar1971
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/12/10 01:10 AM
More of the booklet for those who have any interest?
.jpg "5798263-racehemi2_0001(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/12/10 01:11 AM
more...
.jpg "5798267-racehemi2_0002(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/12/10 01:14 AM
more specs
.jpg "5798272-racehemi2_0003(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/12/10 01:15 AM
Most Important? Part #s
.jpg "5798277-racehemi2_0004(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/12/10 01:16 AM
last pages
.jpg "5798279-racehemi2_0005(Large).jpg")
Posted By: Thread Ender1
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/12/10 01:19 AM
Rear cover, the only date was on the on the back cover 4-64 and revised amendment dated 5-64
.jpg "5798287-racehemi1_0002(Large).jpg")
Posted By: 426Savoy
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/12/10 01:38 AM
Quote:
Ok, this is the manual cover to cover....
Seems like I have the Plymouth version of that book around here somewhere.
Posted By: hemicar1971
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/13/10 02:12 AM
Mr 340 I think this is the car I was talking about. 1964 Dodge 330 aluminum front end. Car was sold new in Michigan.
http://public.fotki.com/srettaw/all-hemi-reunion--q/631.html
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/13/10 02:59 AM
SB_Duster, thanks for posting that info from the 64 Hemi Dodge manual, good stuff.
426Savoy, yes if you wouldn't mind posting the 64 Hemi Plymouth version of that manual.
Posted By: Race&Resto
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/13/10 04:11 AM
These photo's of a couple of 64 Plymouth hardtop's were taken at the All Hemi Reunion in 08. I see Gary Ostrich's name on the black cars front license plate, does anyone have any more info on these two cars?
Black 64 Hardtop.Red 64 Hardtop.
Posted By: 6bblgt
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/13/10 05:27 AM
Not all NASCAR hardtops were hardtops
found the pic but no other info?
Looks like a Cotton Owens car.
![Attached picture 5801008-Untitled-Scanned-23s1[1].JPG](https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/5801008-Untitled-Scanned-23s1[1].JPG "5801008-Untitled-Scanned-23s1[1].JPG")
Posted By: mike s
Re: 1964 Hemi hardtops - 02/13/10 06:31 AM
Looks to be David Pearson in the 64 Dodge.
