Moparts

How to do a fresh 4 speed conversion in an afternoon

Posted By: sunroofgtx

How to do a fresh 4 speed conversion in an afternoon - 02/05/07 11:29 PM

Well, the North East Ohio crew came armed with knowledge and strong backs. With help from 2 guys with 3.5 hour drives also,the 12 of us involved ourselves with a "how to" seminar of epic proportions, and we all walked away knowing a little bit of what's in that crazy head of FourgearSavoy. He not only was able to show us how to do the install, but why and where to do what was needed. Besides, he's a full time certified mechanic as well..

Before I start, if I forgot a step or you see something I typed was way off, please add your details, so this can be a perfect reference for future projects.

We started off examining the said project car,a perfectly clean and painted, 71 Satellite Sebring Plus. It was the perfect candidate. Several years ago, I set out to do this to another car. So I started gathering parts. First call was to Brewer's Performance. They had everything, and I mean everything in stock for the conversion. I then purchased the 23 spline, dual shifter padded tranny from Dave Johnson of Syracuse, NY at the Norwalk show 3 years ago. After I found the Satellite in Reno, Nevada, I started getting to the nitty-gritty of setting up the car how I wanted. In talking to dozens of friends and Moparts member's, I concluded I was going to go with the CenterForce Dual Friction clutch package. For some reason I thought it would be cool to go with an aluminum flywheel. I had worked out a deal with Jamie Passon at the Nat's last year, and he sent it out to me. I went with an 11 inch setup because of parts found, and never thought an 11 inch flywheel would only have 130 teeth. I needed 143 and quick. It was 5 days until the install, and had to make the decision of
1) Swapping everything over to 10 1/2 inch
2) finding a billet 11 inch flywheel,BUT, in doing this, TTI says you have to "dent" the headers I have of theirs. That sucks.
3)Moparts Member RobbMc chimes in and tells me he's engineered a mini-starter that is made to clear TTI headers, and will work with the 143 tooth, 11 inch flywheel.
#3 was the winner, so I contacted Passon to work another deal on a Billet 143, 11 inch flywheel, and ordered the RobbMc starter. Jamie Passon cme through in a pinch, he got the flywheel , somehow, from someone and got it to my house by Friday Morning !! RobbMc sent that beauty starter immediately also.. These were the final parts I felt I needed for the complete 4 speed conversion. Here are most of the parts I started with, not including the trans, pedals, starter or correct flywheel.



Ok, so the men start showing up , Sat. morning. FourgearSavoy was going to be running the seminar, so I made sure he was happy. He brought along his good friend Fireman Rick. We started inspecting parts and we got to work. Fluffy and Katfysh then showed up, each driving over 3 hours each to get to the show. Notacharger and NorthcoastMopar were right behind them. Northcoast brought along an incredible carb-plate device used to tilt the engine when needed. The Jim500 Sr and Jr show arrived just as we began our day..even Fran and IMBILL swung over to eat some soup and chips.
Posted By: KatFysh

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/05/07 11:49 PM

Okay, here we go. This is what I've been waiting for...
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 01:30 AM

First and foremost, you should check to make sure you either have a 4 speed crank, or have it drilled to accept an input shaft, and measure your input shaft hole depth to make sure the shaft will go all the way into the crank without bottoming out. We were fine.

Our assembler brought his own pilot shaft to help with alignment throughout the assembly process. Another important point is having to preassemble everything to make sure it will all work together. This was already done by me during the week, just so there were no unseen surprises. I also chased all of the thread holes to ensure ease of assembly.. Our first major task was to dial in the bellhousing to block. One wants to make sure it centers the tranny to the crank centerline as possible. without it close ,the engine will slowly eat itself to death, and bad vibrations will tell the tale of it being off. We used new dowel pins to get a baseline of where our bell to block lined up. we cleaned them up with emory and a drill press.


First off, clean the flywheel, and bolt it onto the crank, leaving one bolt out for the magnetic dial indicator assembly.


Next, clean each surface that will be mated to each other. You need nice, clean surfaces to work with.
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 01:41 AM

Next, bolt and torque the bell to 55 ft lbs, as per Chrysler specs.

You want to line up the indicator to the bell opening for referencing. Have your slave-boy spin the crank from the front slowly to get a starting reference number and zero out the gauge. Turn the crank while watching the needle sweep, and get the maximum number read.After it was all said and done, were within 8.5 thousandth's. We were all impressed with the number and left it at that.

Next, take off the bell and prep the clutch assembly. Making sure all surfaces are clean, align to correct boltholes and assemble. Make a reference mark for final assembly correctness.

Preassemble the clutch onto the flywheel for correct fit. You can use the plastic tool, or like our seminar VIP, use an actual input shaft.
Clean all clutch surfaces, and reassemble , using brand new bolts. Always use brand new bolts if you can on everything.


Torque to specs..
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 02:04 AM

While we were prepping the clutch assembly and final installing, we had Jim Sr and Jr preassemble the drivers side header and that awesome RobbMc starter.. Perfect fit.. It is an incredible piece..

And Gus gave it his authorization..


After everything is torqued down, check for proper alignment again..

Next, final assemble the bell to the block, again, try to use new bolts and thread lock on all of the bolts used in assembly.

Now for the actual transmission prep. Gus wasn't happy with how reverse shifted, so we loosened all of the sidecover bolts, and worked the synchros smoothly, while tightening opposite side bolts to the case. Make sure all of the bolts have the same size washers.

Preassemble the shifter, rods and shifting levers also. You must align and preset the swivel brackets to near proper position. You do this by aligning the holes above the arms and stick in a 1/4 rod. Set all forward gears this way. Reverse can be done in the car. Final adjustment will be done test driving the car.

Make sure there is a speedometer gear and seal in the gear assembly, clean and install.
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 02:47 AM

Now is a good time to fill the trans with 3 quarts of non-synthetic gear lube. Just make sure you have a yoke in the rear to keep it all in !!!


After preassembling all levers, actual shifter and brackets for proper fit, take it all back apart and get ready to install the engine assembly into the car. We had plenty of help to insure ease and safe entry into the engine compartment. Make sure the trans mount and crossmember are all ready to go also..Get all bolts and threadlock close also..
Make sure motor mounts are tight and where you think they need to be. Hook the motor and roll it into the engine bay.Lower onto K member and adjust so motor mounts are lined up and bolt into place.


Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 03:10 AM

The starter was already bolted into the bellhousing before engine was installed into place The headers needed to be finessed in when lowering the motor down into the engine bay..


Next, before installing the trans, install your throwout bearing and clutchfork assembly. It's better to know exactly what your doing, or grab a manual if winging it. It's all been pretty basic up to now. Now it starts getting alittle more complicated, and it was tuff to get pics of Gus's handi-work..



I don't have any pics of the Z bar or pivot shaft installation process.



We also had a fireman/Mopar buddy Aaron over to weld in the pivot shaft bellmount bracket to the frame. Here is where to put it. You really need to feel and even get a torpedo level on it to know where it goes..Put it alittle closer towards the outside of the car. It will aid in removing and the movement of the pivot shaft (Z Bar)..

Next, we obviously had a lift, so you get that trans somehow ,through the clutch and into that pilot hole. Do not let it sit unbolted , as you will positively bend various imprtant objects in there !!!

Get your trans to bell bolts going in, and also your tranny crossmember and mount bolts in also. Torque everything to factory specs..

We actually completely installed the trans before we welded the frame bracket into place. For those that care..
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 03:36 AM

More info to follow tomorrow, sorry if you are in the middle of installation..!!






Posted By: KatFysh

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 04:40 AM

Nice step by step.. Hey Fluffy, didn't he tell us to shush for the pic..
Posted By: Fluffy

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/06/07 04:43 AM

Looks like Bob was about to pull out his 9 and busta cap.



... nice shot, you caught me as I was making sure my lipstick was ok.
Posted By: ProSport

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/06/07 11:13 AM

Wow, I wasn't ready for a photo, that's terrible.
I was reaching for my camera to get a photo of the car. Our son's in his dirtbike uniform and my wife thinks we're all crazy.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/06/07 11:08 PM

That was really fun to hang with some of the guys on this site and help get a very cool Mopar on the road.I think it will be a nice street/strip ride that is fun to drive.Hey Rick I wan't to make a pass down the 1/4 in that car.
Gus
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 01:03 AM

Quote:

That was really fun to hang with some of the guys on this site and help get a very cool Mopar on the road.I think it will be a nice street/strip ride that is fun to drive.Hey Rick I wan't to make a pass down the 1/4 in that car.
Gus



I treally was. Hey Gus, can you make the details and I'll post the pics for the upcoming pics ?? I'll do my best , but I was locked in up ontop of the lift...
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 01:08 AM

Ok, I'll post some more pics, and Gus can chime in. I was locked in my car, up ontop of the lift.. I helped with the pedal end of adjustments..
Here is a pic of how the RobbMc starter fits

After bolying in the cross member and mount, we move to the shifter rods and shift levers.

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 01:20 AM

You need to make sure all of your shift levers are up. If you don't, and one is mounted wrong, your shift pattern will be wrong, or reverse won't work !!It's also easier to bolt them on before the swivel's, for ease of alignment and time !!! This is another good time to read the manual, for adjusting directions per Mopar spec's..

This billet shifter bracket is really trick, and is stronger than OEM.
Posted By: KatFysh

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 01:27 AM

In this pic..



I was trying to show the clearance of the headers to the inner tie rod end and the a bad shot of how you can actually get to the starter.

I was really impressed with the TTI header clearance. Especially since all I've done anything with is Super Comps.. Man, night and day..

I think I sent ya 1 or 2 more to show clearances.
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 01:36 AM

Here are the pics of the clutch adjustment rod and assembly. We got advise to upgrade right to the metal swivel, instead of the factory rubber grommet. It makes for a smoother shifting assembly.



Here is where the pivot shaft, or Zbar , should be lined up in the area given to service the ball studs. The ball stud should be greased , and affixed with white, plastic grommet's. Make certain if using used ball studs, that they are free of any burrs, and try your hardest to change them out to new ones. This is important. DO THIS WHILE THE BELLHOUSING IS OUT OF THE CAR !! Don't ask me how I know..




Posted By: CokeBottleKid

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 01:40 AM

nice job , but you did forget to check one critical thing... flywheel face runout
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 01:45 AM

Quote:


I was trying to show the clearance of the headers to the inner tie rod end and the a bad shot of how you can actually get to the starter.

I was really impressed with the TTI header clearance. Especially since all I've done anything with is Super Comps.. Man, night and day..

I think I sent ya 1 or 2 more to show clearances.



Good points, this setup has to be the easiest out there. It just has to be..

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 02:14 AM

Quote:

nice job , but you did forget to check one critical thing... flywheel face runout




Not blowing you off, Eric, just waiting for our tech to chime in...
I think we did this ?? Here is what it is, and how to do it..
http://www.roadranger.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@roadranger/documents/content/rr_clmt-1296.pdf
Posted By: CokeBottleKid

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/07/07 06:32 PM

I don't see any pics
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 12:10 AM

Well as this was an OEM block,crank,bell,transmission,and OEM style clutch that measurement would not be an issue with most of the guys on this site.It will not effect the operation of this project.
I knew that some of you guys with aftermarket parts and $3000.00 clutches and and old Pro-Stock cans with Lencos would pipe up with all the "racecar"measurements,we didn't measure the finger height with a dial indicator,balance our wheel with the plate,or check plate clearance with the pedal on the floor.These are all things that are needed with a "RACE" tranny installation.This was intended to be viewed as a guideline to install a transmission for a "STREET/STRIP" fun car.
Gus
Posted By: 10secGTX

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 12:24 AM

I have 1 Thing to say about this post..this whole " How to most do a four speed swap " should be retitled " I invited a bunch of MOPARTS fourspeed people over and did a swap then fed them" It was a good time I had one the more important jobs you don't see much of me because I was the lift operator (very intense work)
Posted By: 10secGTX

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afternoon - 02/08/07 12:26 AM

Quote:

Looks like Bob was about to pull out his 9 and busta cap.



... nice shot, you caught me as I was making sure my lipstick was ok.




"EXCUSE ME WHILE I WHIP THIS OUT"

Attached picture 3278231-Prosport.jpg
Posted By: MrBelvedere

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 01:24 AM

Quote:

It was a good time I had one the more important jobs you don't see much of me because I was the lift operator (very intense work)




You must have a sore finger
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 01:44 AM

Quote:

I have 1 Thing to say about this post..this whole " How to most do a four speed swap " should be retitled " I invited a bunch of MOPARTS fourspeed people over and did a swap then fed them" It was a good time I had one the more important jobs you don't see much of me because I was the lift operator (very intense work)




Don't forget food tester. We were lucky to have Fran there.. He made sure the soup was hot enough so when we were done working, it would be just right...


It was an amazing day. To set the record straight, I didn't ask one of the workers to come out, each one volunteered to come, and some came and didn't even let me know that they were coming. That's friendship. I will surely be letting a few "key" people take it around the block, and even one lucky fellow down the track. I just need to get that digital 6 Plus box in there to prevent 7500 RPM shifting...

We are lucky all of the cards fell in line, and stars also..

Here is a pic with an old broken console. I have a perfect slapstick I'm going to clone...

Posted By: KatFysh

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 02:02 AM

I'm just glad that I didn't have something come up at the last minute,like it usually does with me. Even though the weather on the way home wasn't the best, I am glad I made the trip out. I have no regrets and I had fun. Like I said before, Its always GREAT to meet new people. 'Specially MOPAR people..By the way, did ya ever get to the chicken??
Posted By: 10secGTX

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 03:01 AM

Don't forget food tester. We were lucky to have Fran there.. He made sure the soup was hot enough so when we were done working, it would be just right...


I'm not going to tell how...OR what part of ME, I used to make sure the soup was at the proper TEMP!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: How to do a fresh 4 speed conversion in an afternoon - 02/08/07 03:13 AM

WOW, one question.....whats the combined weight of all parties involved......healthy folks?

Looks very well done......
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 04:24 AM

Was that "wisht"soup? Some veggies,spices,and broth and you wished you had some meat bow bow bow
It was good stuff,nice flavor
Gus
Posted By: Fluffy

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 05:05 AM

The picture of your Twin sister, Rick.. was quite a shock.
Posted By: KatFysh

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 11:41 PM

A twin sister. . I bet nobody EVER knew 'bout that..
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/08/07 11:58 PM

DO NOT make me give her your address's. You think I can do silly strength trick's... Hmmmfff..
Posted By: KillerBee

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/09/07 12:12 AM

Where did you buy the metal clutch rod ball swivel?
I've seen them on E-bay from time to time.
I would like to get rid of my grommets.

Looks like a good time was had by all
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/09/07 12:54 AM

Quote:

Where did you buy the metal clutch rod ball swivel?
I've seen them on E-bay from time to time.
I would like to get rid of my grommets.

Looks like a good time was had by all




Passon Performance pulled a favor from another job.. He is all about the customer. I swear, it's like he cares and it proven over and over... But yes, ebay has them too.. The one seller, has a ton of great stuff. I am giving him a ton of $$ for brake parts and misc..rehenburg I think
Posted By: KillerBee

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/09/07 01:51 AM

Thanks.

I'm pretty sure they were original equipment on 70's and 80's dodge vans and trucks with manual trannys.
The metal ball is definitely better feeling and working than the grommets.
The ones on E-bay are a little expensive.
Some guys are using a rocker pivot ball off a Chebbie.
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/11/07 06:31 PM

Thanks for all of the pm's.. Glad to help.. We were lucky we thought about taking pics and documenting the swap...
Posted By: KatFysh

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/11/07 07:08 PM

I'll have the bellhousing tool made this coming week sometime. I'll post pics to let ya know..Glad I came out for the day. Finally got back @ it with the Dakota..
Posted By: bonefish

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/11/07 10:05 PM

RICK,where did you get that engine lift bracket ?id like to have one of those. i already have an engine stand like yours but i think its a radial.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/11/07 11:20 PM

NorthcoastMopar brought that handy item to the thrash.He said he found it on Ebay.I put the ratchet on that thing when we lowered the engine in and it works like butter
Gus
Posted By: bonefish

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/12/07 01:31 AM

RICK, i cant seem to locate that lift bracket on the bay is there anyway you could get the info off the bracket so we can find the maufacturer(is that a word)?
Posted By: ProSport

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/12/07 02:00 AM

I'd be afraid of the bolts or studs pulling out of the intake holes with that engine lift plate. It looks like a hot setup but I know it's happened before, I think DoubleD dropped an engine with a plate that bolts to the intake.

I like those engine tilters that bolt to all 4 corners of the engine but my hoist won't raise up high enough for that.
Posted By: bonefish

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/12/07 02:08 AM

Quote:

I'd be afraid of the bolts or studs pulling out of the intake holes with that engine lift plate. It looks like a hot setup but I know it's happened before, I think DoubleD dropped an engine with a plate that bolts to the intake.

I like those engine tilters that bolt to all 4 corners of the engine but my hoist won't raise up high enough for that.


my engine is set back too far for anything else to work,i shure hope i can find one like that it looks like a good peice.
Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/12/07 02:11 AM

Try PM'ing NorthcoastMopar. John brought it.. The threads went down to the max of the manifold.... I hated doing it too, but there have been a lot of posts showing what people have lifted using them (intake plate's).. Good luck..
Posted By: CopperDodge

Re: How to mostly do a fresh 4 speed swap in an afterno - 02/15/07 04:36 AM

Quote:

Well as this was an OEM block,crank,bell,transmission,and OEM style clutch that measurement would not be an issue with most of the guys on this site.It will not effect the operation of this project.
I knew that some of you guys with aftermarket parts and $3000.00 clutches and and old Pro-Stock cans with Lencos would pipe up with all the "racecar"measurements,we didn't measure the finger height with a dial indicator,balance our wheel with the plate,or check plate clearance with the pedal on the floor.These are all things that are needed with a "RACE" tranny installation.This was intended to be viewed as a guideline to install a transmission for a "STREET/STRIP" fun car.
Gus




This is an inspiring thread, for sure... but I have a slight thread jack.

If I am taking the NV-3500 from the back of my stock 5.2 Magnum and bolting it on the back of a 360 LA block, do I need to do all the flywheel to bellhousing run-out measurements? The bellhousing and trans case are one piece and there is no way to get a dial indicator in there, etc. etc. We are setting up the clutch and flywheel to be in a completely stock configuration. I'm using a steel flywheel and a Spec CLutch assembly.....

Any tips, Gus?

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the threadjack.
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