Moparts
modern alt. swaps for BB, highest idle amps? update
Posted By: whiplash
modern alt. swaps for BB, highest idle amps? update - 11/19/06 09:33 PM
Chasing some gremlins, low idle voltage at noght with headlights and fans on, have the stock 65 amp 2 field alternator.
Between the headlamps, electric fans, efi, and ignition, I am probably real close to that number. I would lie to know:
what is the rating at idle of the more common modern alternator swaps that you have done?
Which is the easiest to do?
Do they have a press on pulley? or is the shaft the same dia as the std mopar unit?
thanks
Posted By: dave571
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/19/06 10:41 PM
If you want to stick with that style and case, I believe 78 A is the biggest option.
If you want to go to something new....here's a link to a swap to a newer style alternator
denso alt swap
Posted By: Jerry
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/19/06 10:54 PM
i'v egot a 120 on ym serpentine big block setup. this same style also has a 140 amp available.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/19/06 11:19 PM
i put on a 100 watt one with no issues
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 02:08 AM
Quote:
i'v egot a 120 on ym serpentine big block setup. this same style also has a 140 amp available.
Jerry,
More details, please.
pic, alt year models, any mods to the stock brackets, etc...
Posted By: Blackwidow69
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 02:37 AM
Whiplash,
I converted over to a one wire internal regulated Powermaster unit and have had good luck. I don't have all the electrical stuff you do but I bought the 74191 model from Summit and it does only say 75 amp but mine came with a Proof of Performance tag that shows 56 amps at idle and 91 amps at highway speed. Although it does say 2400 rpm below the idle statement so not to sure who idles their engines at 2400 rpm. Either way it outperforms the 75 amp stated number and should be enough for you. Plus it gets rid of the voltage regulator if you have one and knocks down the number of wires that may be causing you issues. It also mounts right into your current bracket as it is the same type of housing. I put in a Mallory Unilite as well so no ballast resistor for me either which really simplifies my engine compartment. But be careful putting any of these big alternators in if you are using a stock wiring harness anywhere. Good luck with your hunt.
Todd
Posted By: Jerry
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 03:20 AM
heres a pic of the kit...
i primarily built this kit so i wouldn't have to futz with all the different bracket and pulley combos. also i switch the engine over to efi with a megasquirt computer and have had no electrical problems. i also run dual electric fans and nice stereo.
i know this might now fit with your supercharger setup, but i'd be willing to look into modifying it since i'm hoping to put a supercharger on my 440 as well.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 12:36 PM
Quote:
Whiplash,
I converted over to a one wire internal regulated Powermaster unit and have had good luck. I don't have all the electrical stuff you do but I bought the 74191 model from Summit and it does only say 75 amp but mine came with a Proof of Performance tag that shows 56 amps at idle and 91 amps at highway speed. Although it does say 2400 rpm below the idle statement so not to sure who idles their engines at 2400 rpm. Either way it outperforms the 75 amp stated number and should be enough for you. Plus it gets rid of the voltage regulator if you have one and knocks down the number of wires that may be causing you issues. It also mounts right into your current bracket as it is the same type of housing. I put in a Mallory Unilite as well so no ballast resistor for me either which really simplifies my engine compartment. But be careful putting any of these big alternators in if you are using a stock wiring harness anywhere. Good luck with your hunt.
Todd
You wouldn't happen to have a part number, would you? I'm a little hesitant to go with a non-OEM application that I can't get at a local parts stor because it is my daily driver, I'd have to borrow a car if the alt cr@ps out....
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 12:38 PM
Jerry,
Do you have a kit for just the alt?
And is the alt a press fit? I have a march serpentine setup that is a press fit alt pulley.
What about the guys who adapted the mid-late 80's GM style alternator? how are they at idle for amp capacity?
Thanks all...
Posted By: Jerry
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 12:46 PM
i don't think the nippondenso alternator i used will fit with the march serpentine belt kit. the pulley on this alternator is a bolt on. also this alternator is longer than the original and will need to be spacer forward. i run a single belt setup even with power steering. the original march kit used 2 belts. if your not running power steering it might work but it might also mess up your supercharger pulley alignment.
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 03:03 PM
Quote:
What about the guys who adapted the mid-late 80's GM style alternator? how are they at idle for amp capacity?
I know this isn`t a serpentine pulley but they are available with one, I went with this specific piece because it comes with a V and that`s what I needed, All of the later GM`s will have a bolt on pulley and March makes a pulley for them so that is a minor issue. I looked thru alot of different case styles and this app fits OE brackets with no mods, the only thing that needs to be fabbed is a rear spacer, It needs to be 3 inches long, it is off of a 89 caddy with a 5.0 liter, I`ve seen 46 amps out of it at idle (850 rpm) and it is rated at 105. With all the crap on my car I have had no issues and to date it has slightly over 180 6500+ rpm shift 1/4 mile passes and 8-9000 street miles with no issues. The plus is it is easily available, which was a concern..
There are lots of ways to upgrade, this is just my 
worth.
Rick
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 04:00 PM
Blown,
That's the kind of alternator I was looking for, now I just need to find the application with a 6 rib pulley, I don't mind running the stock 6 rib while I shake things down..
How did you wire it up?
thanks again.
Posted By: Jerry
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 04:32 PM
whiplash, the other option is to put a smaller pulley on your current alternator. i believe the march serpentine kit maybe an underdrive kit as well. this in itself will cause you all kinds of problems with low RPM charging. let me know if you need a custom pulley fabbed up for your alternator. just figure your RPm ratio from the stock pulleys and we can decrease the diameter a little so its still within reason.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 04:41 PM
Jerry,
Not a bad idea, the march crank pulley is 6", don't know what the stock ratio is.
Do you have the capability to make crank pullies? I was lloking for a crank pulley that has a 6 rib and 8 rib of 6-7" in diameter, can you do that?
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 05:34 PM
If I remember right there is a application for the same year caddy with a different engine that has the same case clocking with a serpentine pulley, tho I don`t remember how many ribs.
Personally and after fighting the OE cryco alternator(3 of them), I wouldn`t even try to use one with anything other than a bone stock configuration, the only way a OE chrysler alternator will even come close to the output of any late alternator especially at low speeds is if lightening hits it. Just my injectors (16) draw close to 22 amps at 60%..add in 2 fuel pumps,fans,inverter for a laptop,ECU,MSD,and just the load of the normal crap in the car and a OE alternator dosen`t stand a chance.
Wiring diagram is attached, i`ve done several of these for people and walked several others thru doing it for themselves and everybody has been satisfyed. If you subscribe to the madelectrical theory (I don`t) You can run the "S" (sense) wire to a common distribution point for "supposedly" better voltage sense, but that is your choice.
Rick
edit: I`ll add this to....if you are running EFI with a OE chrysler alternator and you think it is ok, Go take a look at your Gross Voltage correction (if you have this ability)while at idle and cruise, you won`t like what you see.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 06:27 PM
Here is a 90 amp Toyota Land Cruiser alt swap that I did for a guy. These late model IR Denso alternators put out a lot of amps at idle.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 06:30 PM
Here is a preview of a new kit that is coming from Mancini Racing. It hangs the 120 amp Denso alternator from the 90's era Dodge trucks onto any B/RB block. You can still run a mechanical fuel pump with this kit and the alternator is the Mopar external regulated so you don't have to rewire. These alternators come with a v groove pulley so it is a pretty simple swap.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 08:22 PM
Quote:
Feets
If I remember right there is a application for the same year caddy with a different engine that has the same case clocking with a serpentine pulley, tho I don`t remember how many ribs.
edit: I`ll add this to....if you are running EFI with a OE chrysler alternator and you think it is ok, Go take a look at your Gross Voltage correction (if you have this ability)while at idle and cruise, you won`t like what you see.
exactly what is driving this post.
Is that a CS-130 alternator?
In the wiring diagram, that assumes a 1 field application, correct? I upgraded to the 2 field with the solid state regulator, so what do I do with the other field wire?
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/20/06 09:30 PM
Quote:
Is that a CS-130 alternator?
Yes
Quote:
In the wiring diagram, that assumes a 1 field application, correct? I upgraded to the 2 field with the solid state regulator, so what do I do with the other field wire?
Having an isolated or grounded field alternator is moot at this point, all that is required is a 12 volt switched feed to the "turn on" on the CS (wire with the resistor) I drew up that diagram for someone that had a isolated field system hence the reference to hooking it to the existing field "feed" wire, you can get that switched feed from anywhere you want. It is internally regulated so just tie back your added field return wire and toss the external regulator.
Rick
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 02:06 AM
(insert smiley with lightbulb turning on overhead)
got it, thanks!!
Posted By: challengermike
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 04:15 AM
So is it ok to leave the factory amp gauge hooked up?I see in the diagram it is.I have heard that the connection at the bulkhead connector and the amp gauge couldn't handle that may amps?Or is it OK because you have another wire going to the battery also?
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/21/06 04:28 AM
Andy are you doing these for small blocks?
Posted By: AndyF
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/21/06 05:39 AM
What is a small block?
I have a couple of kits for SB's but none with the big amp stuff. I have a 60 amp Denso kit and a kit for racing that uses the super tiny 55 amp Powermaster alt. There is a factory bracket kit that hangs the 120 amp unit on a SB so I didn't bother designing my own. Just hit the wrecking yard for that swap. (it is kind of ugly though and rather heavy)
Posted By: 65rbdodge
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/21/06 01:28 PM
i got a 1 wire powermaster alt. and brackets from
www.magnumhp.com it was a really easy swap. my car used to not charge at idle now it charges great.
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 02:44 PM
Quote:
So is it ok to leave the factory amp gauge hooked up?I see in the diagram it is.I have heard that the connection at the bulkhead connector and the amp gauge couldn't handle that may amps?Or is it OK because you have another wire going to the battery also?
challengermike
The way that is wired it effectivily bypasses the factory amp guage, which is a must on any alternator upgrade, the factory wiring and bulkhead connector will not tollerate any of these late model higher output alternators for even a short time.
That diagram was done that way (keeping existing wire to alternator) so as not to hack up a factory harness for those that may want a better charging system, but have the option to return everything to stock with little effort.
Rick
Posted By: defiance
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 03:32 PM
I'm using a 150A stinger GM style big case alternator. Works perfectly with the March Perf serpentine kit. The only think I had to do differently is the adjuster bar for the alt - I had to move the mounting point to one of the timing chain cover bolts. The spacer is pretty close to the harmonic balancer (around 5mm clearance at the top), but that hasn't been a problem so far.
I've got an MS, A/C, 1400W (RMS) stereo, alarm, aftermarket lights (soon to be HID), 4 (ran 5 for a while) electric fans (2 for a/c condenser, 2 for radiator) etc.etc. and I can idle with everything on @ 800rpms at 14.5v.
Here's some pics of the alternator, brackets, pulleys, etc...
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2324498/4Unfortunately, the changed rod mounting point isn't really visible in the pics... I'd take a pic of the changed bracket, but everything's all apart right now for a rebuild.
Posted By: feets
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 07:30 PM
I've got a link at home to someone that makes a kit for 100+ amps out of a square back and round back alternator.
What's wrong with doing that and keeping the stock looking unit?
Posted By: Dragula
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 07:32 PM
I had a big issue with needing a good amount of amps at idle.
I currently run a 8mm cog system with GM 100amp unit over driven 2:1 with a 8mm cog pulley from these guys
http://productengr.com/alternators.htmand a BDS blower pulley cut down to 0.75 wide for the crank and a low mount bracket from Jegs for a BBC....Works very well even with a 100amp alternator.
See attached pic
Posted By: challengermike
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 11:03 PM
Ok,i am still confused.In that diagram the orignal amp gauge wire is hooked to the battery wire where the positive post is on the alternator.Now the original wire stills goes through the bulkhead connector and to the amp gauge,correct?If you get rid of the orignal amp gauge wire there will be no power to the inside of the car,correct.So is there not the same amount of amperage because it is no longer going to the amp gauge and back out to the battery like it did origanaly?I would really like to do this swap,but i want to get it right the first time.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/21/06 11:19 PM
Quote:
I've got a link at home to someone that makes a kit for 100+ amps out of a square back and round back alternator.
What's wrong with doing that and keeping the stock looking unit?
I would love to do that, but if that alt [Email]cr@ps[/Email] out, I have to sideline my daily and only car and borrow one while i mail order another. If I can fine the correct vehicle application for a cs130, it is:
-a direct bolt in
-available at 90% of parts stores across the US
-capable of providing the amps I need
-allows me to remove the voltage regulator
-simplifies the wiring harness
-I can relocate my ignition box (really only my concern)
on top of that, it was my understanding that most of the "rebuilds" that promise more amps accomplish it but at the sacrifice of idle amps, which is where I really need it.
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 02:07 AM
Quote:
I've got a link at home to someone that makes a kit for 100+ amps out of a square back and round back alternator.
What's wrong with doing that and keeping the stock looking unit?
Show me one of those that actually will have ANY idle output amperage and i`ll go back in my hole, as I said before THE only way any of the old style mopar alternators will do anything worthy of getting excited about is if lightening hits them....You can put perfume on a pig....it`s STILL a pig.
challengermike
The original feed for the inside of the car comes from the fuse link at the starter relay stud, which is hooked to the positive battery cable, in the wiring diagram you will notice there is a 8 guage wire from the alternator output stud to the battery positive, With the original amp guage wire ALSO hooked to the alternator stud you have now essentially jumped across the 2 amp guage wires eliminating current flow thru the guage but giving you 2 wires and close to double the current carrying capability to feed the inside.
THE sole reason it is wired this way is to give the owner a option to have a better charging system and NOT have to hack up a factory harness should it be needed to be returned to stock.
It is NOT necessary to hook it up this way if you either prefer to do an internal guage bypass at the cluster and feed it directly from the battery/starter relay, or don`t care about keeping things so they can be returned at some point. All that is required and mandatory is the 8 guage from the alternator to the battery positive. No matter which way you choose, PLEASE make sure this wire is protected either by fuse link or a proper sized fuse/breaker.
Rick
Posted By: challengermike
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 02:21 AM
I understand now,Thanks,So instead of all the current going through the inside of the car and back out it can split the current to half in the car and half directly to the battery.But because the 8 gauge wire is directly to the battery the inside of the car isnt alternating current anymore its direct.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 02:49 AM
Quote:
I've got a link at home to someone that makes a kit for 100+ amps out of a square back and round back alternator.
What's wrong with doing that and keeping the stock looking unit?
I installed on of those kits and yes it does increase output, I measured a peak of 94 amps. The downside is it DROPS idle output by .5V 
and this is with a 10Ga wire running direct to the battery, amp gauge bypassed, bulkhead connector eliminated.
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 05:28 AM
I installed on of those kits and yes it does increase output, I measured a peak of 94 amps. The downside is it DROPS idle output by .5V and this is with a 10Ga wire running direct to the battery, amp gauge bypassed, bulkhead connector eliminated.
What brand of alt are you talking about?
Im looking at going with a tuffstuff 100 amp, single wire unit, stock case style. The alt is rated for 58 amps at a idle speed of 750, assuming a 3 to 1 pulley ratio. Just wondering what brand you have.
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 05:44 AM
I have a 140 amp 1 wire, that fit with my stock big block alt brackets.
want a picture?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 12:26 PM
Quote:
I have a 140 amp 1 wire, that fit with my stock big block alt brackets.
want a picture?
absolutely, plus who makes it, if its a stock application, etc. thanks.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 01:39 PM
Blown71x,
I found an auction for a cs130, parts stores around here are only selling remans. Is this the one I need to fit the stock brackets?
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 02:35 PM
Quote:
I installed on of those kits and yes it does increase output, I measured a peak of 94 amps. The downside is it DROPS idle output by .5V and this is with a 10Ga wire running direct to the battery, amp gauge bypassed, bulkhead connector eliminated.
What brand of alt are you talking about?
Im looking at going with a tuffstuff 100 amp, single wire unit, stock case style. The alt is rated for 58 amps at a idle speed of 750, assuming a 3 to 1 pulley ratio. Just wondering what brand you have.
read the quote in my post
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 03:05 PM
Quote:
I've got a link at home to someone that makes a kit for 100+ amps out of a square back and round back alternator.
What's wrong with doing that and keeping the stock 
looking unit?
Posted By: Verga
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? *DELETED* - 11/22/06 03:27 PM
Post deleted by Verga
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 04:18 PM
mine looks like it the same as blown71x but chrome,
its 140 amp 1 wire,
it cost 275.00 at valley alt. in canoga park ca.
they had to build it,
14 volts at idle with my both my fans on and fuel pump and msd.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 04:23 PM
c'mon, guys, I'm trying to get somewhere here, just the facts...
I went to pep boys, found an alt for a 95 impala, cs130, with a serpentine pulley, the bolt holes are 12/6 o'clock (180°, opposed) that looks like it will fit.
The stock alternator has a bolt to bolt distance around 6.5", this one is 7.25". The spacer I should need up top is 3", as stated above. I should be able to rotate the bottom braket down a little and still have some adjustment for tightening...
Now, I need to find a connector for it, the connector on the alt is square, 1 larger connector and 3 smaller ones
blown, is this plug similar to what you have? where did you get the connector? thanks again.
Posted By: Verga
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 04:38 PM
Quote:
c'mon, guys, I'm trying to get somewhere here, just the facts...
Me too. I need the info also. 
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 04:45 PM
Posted By: Verga
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 04:49 PM
Quote:
mine looks like it the same as blown71x but chrome,
its 140 amp 1 wire,
it cost 275.00 at valley alt. in canoga park ca.
they had to build it,
14 volts at idle with my both my fans on and fuel pump and msd.
I realize Im borderline hijacking this post, but Im gonna give them a call. In case anybody else need the number here it is (818) 882-7511.
Posted By: Jerry
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 04:50 PM
the connector your looking for can usually be found in the help section as a repair part. there are millions of the cs alternators running around. if the pepboys your going to doesn't have it then go to an autozone.
Posted By: JeffC
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 06:00 PM
Quote:
Blown,
That's the kind of alternator I was looking for, now I just need to find the application with a 6 rib pulley, I don't mind running the stock 6 rib while I shake things down..
How did you wire it up?
thanks again.
Cadillac went to the serpentine belt in 91 on the RWD fleetwoods with the 5.0. That mite be what your looking for. ac-delco pn 321-1068 100amp
Posted By: Clair
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 06:16 PM
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 06:18 PM
As mentioned above, The pigtails are available at any of the dime store auto parts places.
Rick
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 07:32 PM
if you have a 1 wire you dont need a pigtail
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/22/06 09:07 PM
Quote:
if you have a 1 wire you dont need a pigtail
True...BUT..as was posted, He is wanting something that is easily available in most auto parts stores in case something dies, One wire`s are not.
With this extremely simple wiring setup an "off the shelf" unit can be used without fear of having to find a one wire....which personally I don`t care for anyway.
Rick
Posted By: Dakota_Don
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/23/06 02:05 AM
i looked at advanced autos web site, and for 89 caddy i didnt see a 5.0, but it looks like any other GM CS series alt, an according to them is a 120 amp, and the price starts at about 95 bucks online, can the cs series be clocked??
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/23/06 02:42 AM
Look again
1989 caddy Fleetwood brougham 5.0
Advance part number:P79223
Posted By: Dakota_Don
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/23/06 03:44 AM
k ill look, looked at all but that one, but i assume they use the same alt
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/24/06 02:55 PM
I googled that part number, here's some more stock applications to ask for, and a link to a checy site that also shows the retrofit for older chvy's:
Link>>>>
http://home.centurytel.net/rshannon/cs130.htm Are there any size differences between the CS130 and the CS144?
CS series wiring pin-out:
S = Heavy gauge wire to the battery supply (loop to output post on rear of alternator).
F = not used.
L = Small gauge wire that comes from the idiot light and energizes the alternator.
P = not used.
AC Delco sells a SI-to-CS adapter pigtail or you'll need to purchase a new end for the CS alternator. I got mine from the local salvage yard for $2.50. If you go the conversion pigtail route, be aware that there are TWO TYPES, a non-resistor model for use WITH the idiot light, and a resistor model for use WITHOUT the idiot light.
Non-resistor adapters: use WITH idiot light
- AC Delco: 8077
- Haywire: 2110
- Painless Wiring: 30707
Resistor adapters: use WITHOUT idiot light
- AC Delco: 8078
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
105 AMP CS130
Get a 105 amp alternator for a 1989 Pontiac Safari Wagon 5.0L. This saves you the trouble of having to swap pulleys as the Safari came with a v-groove pulley, not the serpentine. From Advance Auto Parts the part # is Premium P79223. $78 with a $35 core charge.
Other options are:
(1988-90) Buick Estate Wagon 5.0L
(1988-90) Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham (RWD) 5.0L
(1988-90) Chevrolet Caprice 5.0L
(1988-90) Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser 5.0L
(1988-89) Pontiac Safari Wagon 5.0L
Replaces:
Delco 1101229, 1101275, 1101292
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
140 AMP CS144
If you want a bad boy 140 amp CS144 Series, they're used on:
(1994-96) Buick Roadmaster 5.7L
(1993-96) Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham (RWD) 5.7L
(1993-96) Chevrolet Caprice 4.3L, 5.7L
(1995-96) Chevrolet Impala 5.7L
(1992-95) Chevrolet Lumina APV Van 3.8L
(1992-95) Oldsmobile Silhouette 3.8L
(1992-95) Pontiac Trans Sport 3.8L
Replaces:
Delco 10479891, 10480201
You'll have to swap pulleys on this model as they came with a six-groove serpentine set-up.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/24/06 03:16 PM
more info:
pdf file withthe list of delco part number, amp ratings, series, and clocking:
http://www.acdelcotechconnect.com/pdf/tas_alt_clock_cs.pdf More pictures and info on the CS series:
http://oljeep.com/gw/alt/Alternator_Theory.html#Section_3 this is good stuff, I'm thinking about going with the cs-144, looks like it has the same dimensions, the 140a version has 40 amps at 1600 or so rpm. Pics to follow.
Maybe this should be in the tech archives?
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/24/06 04:31 PM
Isnt that 40 amps at 1600 alt rpms, not crank rpm's? Basically 40 amps at 500 or so crank rpms assuming a 3 to 1 pulley ratio?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/24/06 04:46 PM
Quote:
Isnt that 40 amps at 1600 alt rpms, not crank rpm's? Basically 40 amps at 500 or so crank rpms assuming a 3 to 1 pulley ratio?
yes, I think so.
Posted By: Verga
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/24/06 04:50 PM
Sweet. That is great info!!!
I too am interested in the CS144. I do see where someplaces list as having a bigger case than the CS130, about 14 mm bigger. But I see in your link it says the CS--- numbers refer to the size of the stator. I wonder if a bigger stator means a bigger case and if so if 14mms will matter?
Posted By: dbdartman
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/24/06 05:06 PM
Quote:
Maybe this should be in the tech archives?
As soon as this has been all played out, let me know & I'll make sure it's moved there!
Posted By: Dakota_Don
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/27/06 02:44 PM
kool great info, and as you said above it will work with the stock brackets, makes this swap even better,
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/27/06 07:33 PM
OK, some updates,
I found the pigtail, napa online or at the store, part number EC#101, or ECHEC101, $9.49.
Only come with 3 wires, but you only need to hookup the big one and one other, not sure which one, but I'll find out later.
As soon as I get some time, I'll swap out the old alte and go for it, maybe later this week...
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/30/06 02:17 AM
did some more searching, the local pep boys did not have any cadillac stuff so I tried a
95 chevy impala
95 chevy cavalier
Both different, both NO GOOD.
So, now I'm in search for the caddy one, called a local parts store, they say they have it, we'll see tomorrow.
application for serpentine belt is 1990 cadillac fleetwood broughm, 5.7L TBI,
AC delco number 321-381 (or try 10463090)
application for v belt is 1990 cadillac fleetwood broughm, 5.0L 4BBL,
AC delco number 321-397(or try 334-2351, or 10463106)
pic of the serpentine one, the positioning of the mounting holes is what's important here. Blown, is this where your mounting holes are?
pic of the v belt one:
As said, I'm going to see if they have it tomorrow, and put it in. I have the 8 ga wire, but all I could find was 12 ga fusible link, not 10. I hope the 12 ga fusible link will work, gotta go research fusible link max loads....
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/30/06 02:43 AM
Quote:
gotta go research fusible link max loads....
And I just did, seems like the recommended size drop is 4, so for the 8 ga wire, I 12 ga fusible link is correct. From Mad enterprises:
18ga. Fusible Link protects 14ga. or heavier wired systems
16ga. Fusible Link protects 12ga. or heavier wired systems
14ga. Fusible Link protects 10ga. or heavier wired systems
12ga. Fusible Link protects 8ga. or heavier wired systems
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/30/06 03:15 AM
Quote:
application for v belt is 1990 cadillac fleetwood broughm, 5.0L 4BBL,
AC delco number 321-397(or try 334-2351, or 10463106)
Are the numbers for a CS130 or CS144?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 11/30/06 12:13 PM
numbers are for a cs-130, for the c144, try same year but a seville or other caddy I'm pretty sure.
I hada cs-144 in my hand, they are pretty big, the mounting points and depth are teh same, but it is significantly bigger. Honestly, when you look at the amp vs rpm graphs, the cs130 is all any of us will need unless you are rock climbing at night with 2000w of lights or are winching or welding. EFI guys like myself and blown need 40-60 amps at idle with electric fans and pumps and ECU, etc. The cs130 is around 80a output at idle, plenty of juice. And it is smaller than the stock mopar unit, cleans up the engine compartment a little.
Posted By: CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/30/06 03:44 PM
I run a 200 amp alternator, it's a Ford application, I think the case looks more "MoPar-ish" than the GM alternators....?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 11/30/06 05:36 PM
Got the alternator, definately looks like the one Blown is using. Unfortunately, it has a 5 rib instead of a 6 rib serpentine belt but that is no big deal as a pulley swap is easy with my impact gun.
AC DELCO's website is awesome for parts searching and reference pictures:
http://198.208.187.182/internet/InternetMain.jsp Here, based on the AC delco reman number and info fromt he other links regarding clocking and styles are the ones I think we should be looking for:
Part******Amp.**Series**RemanNo.*Style? Clock?
321-283***100***CS-130**10497119*A 9
321-303***100***CS-130**10463004*A 9
321-340***85****CS-130**10463046*A 9
321-381***100***CS-130**10463090*A 9
321-397***105***CS-130**10463106*A 9
321-435***85****CS-130**10463144*A 9
321-436***105***CS-130**10463145*A 9
321-1034**105***CS-130**10463414*A 9
321-1036**100***CS-130**10463416*A 9
321-1064**105***CS-130**10463529*A 9
gonna go install it tonite, pictures to come.
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/01/06 01:53 AM
Quote:
Blown, is this where your mounting holes are?
Sorry i`ve been away for a couple of days, Yes that is the same as I run
Rick
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/01/06 02:19 AM
Quote:
numbers are for a cs-130, for the c144, try same year but a seville or other caddy I'm pretty sure.
I hada cs-144 in my hand, they are pretty big, the mounting points and depth are teh same, but it is significantly bigger. Honestly, when you look at the amp vs rpm graphs, the cs130 is all any of us will need unless you are rock climbing at night with 2000w of lights or are winching or welding. EFI guys like myself and blown need 40-60 amps at idle with electric fans and pumps and ECU, etc. The cs130 is around 80a output at idle, plenty of juice. And it is smaller than the stock mopar unit, cleans up the engine compartment a little.
Thanks for the numbers. Again great info.
Im gonna need around 60 amps at idle (plus lights) , so I think I'll try one out.
Fans 26 amps
Water Pump 10 amps
Fuel Pump 10 amps
Ignition Box 10 amops
Lights ?? amps
I should be good at 80 amps at idle.
Anyway, pics of the your install would be great.
Are you using a stock bracket?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 03:33 AM
SUCCESS!!!
I was having an issue where the alternator was not charging, had the alt tested and it was good, did some more research onthe net and on this nova site:
http://www.novaresource.org/alternator.htm I found this paragraph:
Quote:
You need to purchase a conversion adapter that is just 2 short wires and 2 connectors. One is a CS connector to plug into the alternator, the other is a female connector to accept the SI plug from your original harness. There are two different types of conversion adapters. One is a non-resistor and the other has some resistance built-in it. The "L" wire that energizes the alternator needs some resistance (35 ohms or more) in it otherwise it will cause the alternator to fail. If you have a warning light in the dash then that bulb serves as the needed resistance and you should use the non-resistor adapter. If you don't have that bulb or have less than 35 ohms resistance in the "L" wire then you will need the adapter with resistance built in. If the "L" wire has more than 350 ohms then there is a problem with that wire and it will need to be fixed.
even though I measured 220 ohms in the wire as suggested by blown71x and other internet sites, the above information cased me to think, lets try another resistance, so I swapped out the 220 ohm resistor for a 100 ohm resisteor and whala! the alternator charges!!
now, I get 14+vdc at idle, and with all the accessories and the 30 amp electric fans on, I get 13 vdc, charging issues solved...
The only problem I have, and it could be an issue, is that with the 383's, the bottom mounting hole does not line up, so I made a 1.5" extension piece of flat metal to extend the bottom bracket so it does not hit the fan. While it looks hokey and backyard, it works. For the RB motors, looking at the geometry, it looks like this is a direct bolt in, butthe fact that the b blocks have less height in them it changes the geometry just enough where the alternator fan hits the bottom bracket.
When I get a chance I will post some pics of the "modification" and tehn get to work on making a new bottom bracket.
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 03:51 AM
so what did you spend?
and how many amps is it?
Posted By: Blown71X
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 03:56 AM
Quote:
The only problem I have, and it could be an issue, is that with the 383's, the bottom mounting hole does not line up, so I made a 1.5" extension piece of flat metal to extend the bottom bracket so it does not hit the fan. While it looks hokey and backyard, it works. For the RB motors, looking at the geometry, it looks like this is a direct bolt in, butthe fact that the b blocks have less height in them it changes the geometry just enough where the alternator fan hits the bottom bracket.
This is good to know as I have only delt with this combo on RB`s
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 04:03 AM
The alternator was $98.-
The pigtail was $9.-
resistor $1.50 (radio shack)
Fusible link $5.- (10'roll)
I had the 8 ga wire, and misc connectors, solder, shrink wrap, etc.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 01:18 PM
pictures:
you can see the lower bracket extension piece in the bottom left corner of the pic:
closer:
the back side, you can see ample clearance for the main charge wire (red)going straight to the battery.
over the valve cover you can see the red "sense" wire going to the distribution point on the starter relay and the blue resistor.
Last pic, compared to the pic blown 71 posted on the first page, you can see how using the lower of the two mounting points on the top bracket slightly changes the clocking of the alternator, making it neccesssary to do something different with the bottom bracket.
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 05:16 PM
Do you think a different clock position would maybe elminate the need for the extension?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 06:39 PM
that's the problem, there isn't one in between the two available positions
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 07:53 PM
Were you able to get the belt really tight using the extension?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle? - 12/01/06 08:51 PM
yes, a little tricky but yes. stays tight too....
Posted By: jeepers007
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/01/06 09:47 PM
Maybe one of our resident metal workers could fab up a new arm that takes care of this issue. Should be cheap to do... Doesn't need to be anything fancy.
This thread needs to be saved in the tech section!
Posted By: VZCharger
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/01/06 11:48 PM
I used the arm from a GM product when I mounted mine, figure if it was a GM alternator then a GM bracket should work
. It had a large curve to it that wrapped around the alternator so I didn't need an extension. I just went to the local speed shop and looked through their catalogs 'till I found one that looked like it could work.
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/02/06 12:57 AM
Quote:
Maybe one of our resident metal workers could fab up a new arm that takes care of this issue. Should be cheap to do... Doesn't need to be anything fancy.
This thread needs to be saved in the tech section!
Posted By: Pool Fixer
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/02/06 01:14 AM
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/02/06 07:47 AM
Whiplash,
Now that you have the alt. mounted, running, etc., do you think the 144 would clear everything?
Just wondering.
Thanks
Posted By: whiplash
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/02/06 01:26 PM
I think the 144 housing would fit. The issue would be with the bottom bracket, maybe not on a 440, but a new bracket or a different on would be needed for the 383. Why do you need a 140a alternator anyway?
Posted By: Von
Re: modern alternator swaps for BB, highest amp at idle - 12/02/06 05:02 PM
I know the problem would still exist with the bottom bracket, just wondering about the case.
Do you have any way to see how many amps you are getting at idle?
Do you have your headlights on relays or not?
Just wondering.
