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Subframe connectors, which way should we
Posted By: ZIPPY
Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 06:28 PM
OK there are a couple different ways the subrame connectors can be done (with "realative ease") on the 69 B body/GTX in the sig pic.
We can go 2x2 and have Todd weld them to the subrames only, or 2x3 and run them to the floor where it drops down into the back seat footwell area. I have seen them done both ways, and either one looks good to me.
Which is the stronger of the two?
Does the 2x3+ welding to the floorpan add very much strength?
Gotta say I am not really worried about originality, even though it is a "real" GTX I want to do it as best I can. If that means cutting the floor, the sawzall is ready
On the other hand, if the extra 1" isn't going to add anything, why bother doing it that way?
Not being an engineer I have no idea which is better so please vote for your preference and feel free to post why you think it's better. Thanks.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 06:56 PM
For future roll bar installation, wouldn't the 2x3 coming through the floor be better?
That way the main hoop could run right through the frame connector, instead of sitting on a plate. Wouldn't it be stronger that way?
Help?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 07:01 PM
Hey Zip, I know mine is an ugly A body, but you can check them out Friday night. I bought them from Mancini, but don't remember the cost. Maybe you can get an idea anyway.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 07:07 PM
Zippy, the section modulus (SM) of 2 x 3 steel tubing will be 50% stronger than 2 x 2 providing the wall is the same thickness. The (RBM)resistant bending moment will be significantly improved with 2 x 3 as well. That deals with length x strength. Hope that helps.
Gene
Posted By: 65rbdodge
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 07:09 PM
why do you need to cut the floor with the 2x3? i made connectors for my car with 2x3 and i didn`t cut the floor. mine overlap the rear frame and i had to make an l shaped piece that i welded on to the "open end" of the beam to drop it down 1/2" and it cleared the floor. mine kind of look like this-
http://www.bigblockdart.com/connectors/connectors.htm
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 07:16 PM
2x3 tubing is more than 3x as resistant to bending as 2x2 tubing. In fact, you could reduce the wall thickness a bit to drop the weight and still have a much stronger beam out of 2x3. I'd cut the floor and use the big stuff. Besides, 2x3 matches the existing frame stubs pretty well. If you spend a little time on it, you make it look as if there is a full frame under the car.
Posted By: 69CHARGERMD
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 08:26 PM
Rich,
I did the exact same thing rbdodge' did,,,have 2x3 with it cut/sectioned in the back and plates up front,,,no floor cutting required...
You can see it on Friday if we all get together...
Todd Lamothe (bubba's) brother did the welding...wow, what a differene in the car.
DOUG
Posted By: mopardad
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 09:13 PM
Zip, the thing to do for the main hoop is to weld in pieces of 2x3 out to the rockers from the frame connectors & then weld your hoop to those.
Posted By: M_D
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 09:15 PM
I would use 3"x2" in 14 gauge (.083"), it is about 2.67 lbs. per foot. To compare weight, 2"x2" 11 gauge (.120") is 3.07 lbs. per foot. In this application, the lighter wall with the extra 1" of depth will more than make up the strength compared to the heavier wall but smaller tube. Welding it in or to the floor ties everything together much more, in that case I would be tempted to use 3”x1 ½” 14 gauge.
This goes against popular opinion, but I’ll say it anyhow. Tying the rear and front frame sections together will do a minimal amount of good to solve twisting, compared to a roll cage or even a 6 point bar with a couple of diagonals thrown in. I’m not saying it isn’t worthwhile, but it just doesn’t provide the torsional strength needed.
If you use a piece of plywood to represent a flimsy unibody, and nailed 2x4’s on it to represent the front and rear cross members and frame rails, it will be quite flexible. If you connect the two ends in the middle it stiffens it better to act as a bridge or a beam, but you would notice the resistance to twisting is not improved a huge amount. Two parallel frame members don’t resist twisting well, a cage or roll bar adds depth in multiple directions, and will add much more strength.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 09:27 PM
OK mopardad, I got ya. Outriggers. If that's the way to do it then there's no good reason to use 2x2 then. So that's out.
I like the article at
http://www.bigblockdart.com/connectors/connectors.htm and it is helpful, but other than overlapping it they don't explain exactly how the 3" wide connector is fit to the roughly 2" wide rear frame rail. What did they do, heat with a torch and pound on it? Smash it with C clamps or a vise? Just weld the heck out of it? Add more pieces to narrow that part? It doesn't say.
From what little I understand about such things, it looks to me like if it were facing the other way (2" horizontal, 3" vertical) the sectioned back end of the connector will fit better over the frame rail, but will be somewhat less convienient to install.
I don't know anything about this stuff, and never claimed anyone has to run them through the floor, I am saying that I don't mind doing it
IF it gives a worthwhile improvement in strength.
Looks like the silent majority is voting for 2x3 through the floor in the back and that's the way I'm leaning towards right now. Is it worth doing that way?
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 09:36 PM
Quote:
I would use 3"x2" in 14 gauge (.083"), it is about 2.67 lbs. per foot. To compare weight, 2"x2" 11 gauge (.120") is 3.07 lbs. per foot. In this application, the lighter wall with the extra 1" of depth will more than make up the strength compared to the heavier wall but smaller tube. Welding it in or to the floor ties everything together much more, in that case I would be tempted to use 3”x1 ½” 14 gauge.
This goes against popular opinion, but I’ll say it anyhow. Tying the rear and front frame sections together will do a minimal amount of good to solve twisting, compared to a roll cage or even a 6 point bar with a couple of diagonals thrown in. I’m not saying it isn’t worthwhile, but it just doesn’t provide the torsional strength needed.
If you use a piece of plywood to represent a flimsy unibody, and nailed 2x4’s on it to represent the front and rear cross members and frame rails, it will be quite flexible. If you connect the two ends in the middle it stiffens it better to act as a bridge or a beam, but you would notice the resistance to twisting is not improved a huge amount. Two parallel frame members don’t resist twisting well, a cage or roll bar adds depth in multiple directions, and will add much more strength.
Thx Mike. the frame rails are about 2" wide, so I was figuring that would fit the easiest over them, so it looks like 14 gauge 2x3 is what I need to get.
I'm definitely planning on some kind of roll bar, just won't be able to swing the dough for it this year. But now that you put it that way, it makes sense that it probably would help even more than the frame ties.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 09:40 PM
I agree with M D no matter how you install it your not going to stop the twisting. I did mine in steps first the frame connectors them a 6 point roll bar then added 2 more bars down to the frame connectors then braced the front end up to the fire wall. guess what it still twisted. when you get over 500hp your kind of over powering the poor unibody. and traction remained about the same.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/30/03 10:09 PM
Quicktree you aren't saying it's not worth doing are you?
Posted By: mopardad
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 12:19 AM
Another thing I found that helps once you have a bar installed is to tie the bar into the roof structure where the bar makes its bend to go horizontal,usually a short piece of tubing a few inches long welded in will make a big difference. Zip, the 3" is the vertical,cut thru the floor & weld solid where necessary
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 12:46 AM
Someone asked ealier about the tubing thickness on 2x2" box subframes, and my reply was:
Here's the way I look at it, and as always, I could be full of it...
Obviously the OEM frame material is a lot less than .120 wall (1/8"), so that begs the question, why use anything THICKER than the existing frame? Well, the frame sections are a lot taller, AND they are tied into the floors/fenders, so they are "borrowing" load-bearing capacity from adjacent structures. That's the beauty of unitized construction. In contrast, the subframe connector is mostly on its own. It's tied into the rear floor for ~1 foot, and then it's just hanging out there. In that case, it helps to have it a little thicker. May want to look into tying it into your seat mounts that come off the rocker panel. Pretty easy to do.
I used 2x3x1/8" on my Charger and I'm currently installing 2x2x1/8" on my 71 RR.
If the car is going to see much track time, I'd go with 2x3" tubing, and with the 14 guage (thinner) material like M D and Andy recommended.
I'm going with 2x2 11 guage on my 71RR because 1) it's a street car and 2) I don't want the connectors to be visible in the front seat area. Too bad my pic hosting service dropped me (moparpages) or I'd post a bunch of pics.
Posted By: JandJ_Racing
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 12:56 AM
I did the 2x3 through the floop
Posted By: 3404
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 01:12 AM
I say if you don't cut them through the floor pan and weld the pans 100% to the 2x3 you are just about wasting your time. I hang out sometimes in a professional chassis shop and just watch and b.s. with the welded there. They ALWAYS come up through the floor pans and weld them solid. I don't know what class it was for but one of the door slammer type cars that is required to have so much of the stock floor pan left in the car to qualify had tube style connectors put in it from back to front and they came up almost half way through the floor pans and were welded solid. For the structual welds they use tig with the appropriate steel filler but for thr pans to the connectors they use tig with sillicon bronze filler to keep from burning up the sheet metal.
Eric
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 01:40 AM
Sure seems stronger to run them through the floor.
OK guys I'll shop for 2x3 tomorrow then.
Thanks!
Posted By: RoadRnnr69
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 01:46 AM
Zippy, I got mine from Mancini and they were about $100.
You really don't want to weld them in, if they did flex you could rip the steel, also if welded the car could be crooked on the jack stands and when you weld them in it will be crooked off the jack stands, bolted would be better.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 01:52 AM
If you bolt them in with any torque on the nuts, you WILL collapse the frame section. Seen that many times. Bolted in frame connecters are absolute junk and serve no purpose. Sorry, but that's a fact. If they're welded in correctly, nothing is going to tear. On that note, it's a really good idea to gusset the butt welds where the connector butts up against the trans x-member.
For the bolt-in fans, I have some MP bolt-ins for sale. $50 for both.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 01:53 AM
no not at all. I would still do it. just letting you know that you will prob not stop the twisting.
Posted By: clonestocker
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 02:12 AM
Zippy, I took 2x3 but also opened the front of the rear frame rails and stuffed the 2x3 about 12inches into them. But first you take a hole saw and cut holes on the inside and outside of the frame rails. You want to stagger them. you have to take clamps and pull the frame rail against the tubing but then you can also weld the frame rail connectors to the sides of the rear frame rails. Very stout setup. But you have to bring the 2x3 through the floor pan at some point. You then have a place to weld the main hoop kickers on to. have fun matt s
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 02:27 AM
Quote:
Zippy, I took 2x3 but also opened the front of the rear frame rails and stuffed the 2x3 about 12inches into them. But first you take a hole saw and cut holes on the inside and outside of the frame rails. You want to stagger them. you have to take clamps and pull the frame rail against the tubing but then you can also weld the frame rail connectors to the sides of the rear frame rails. Very stout setup. But you have to bring the 2x3 through the floor pan at some point. You then have a place to weld the main hoop kickers on to. have fun matt s
Crap. I wish I hadn't opened this thread. Now I'm thinking about chucking the $15 2x2" connectors I have and going with 2x3". I have the floors cut and the connectors fitted, but they're not welded yet.
One thing I have to say is that it's a LOT easier to run the stock fuel/brake lines with the 2x2 connectors. You will have to notch the holes to fit the lines around the 2x3 connectors.
Ditto on cutting the rear sub frame end, and sliding the tubing into the rear subframe.
Posted By: 3404
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 10:41 AM
Take your time when you cut the floor pans for the connectors to fit through. You want them to fight as tight as possible to the floor. Any gaps at all will make it difficult to weld the floorpans without burning holes through them.
Eric
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 02:10 PM
Hey Zip-
Here's mine. No floor cutting. They're made of 2x3 square tubing. They're made of two sections as the floor was in the way... Made a huge difference in strength!
Posted By: Clair
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/31/03 02:24 PM
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 07/31/03 02:30 PM
I plan to do connectors in the next month or so and this has been a very enlightening thread!
Can someone make sure this gets in the archives?
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/01/03 02:21 AM
Yeah I agree it'd be cool to have this in the archives for future reference. Plus it'd make me feel famous
Hit the local steel fab shop (only 5 miles away), and they said they would have 14 gauge 3x2 for me tomorrow. Only $18 for both 4' pieces
Jeez, even
I can afford that!!
Hack and slash...errr I mean tasteful modification is to begin shortly, probably near the end of this weekend.
Posted By: M_D
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/01/03 02:42 AM
Zippy, here's a tip that may or may not help. If you run them through the floor, find and mark the rear and forward points. Then you can drill a small hole through the floor for reference. If you use some string stretched between the two points, you can get a pretty straight line marked out. Then you can measure over for the width to get the other line marked. Like it was mentioned above, it is much easier to weld the seam up if it is tight with as little gap as possible, so it's best (IMO) to not cut too much away the first time.
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/01/03 06:54 AM
Rich, I was thinking the same as a few others, about slipping them into the rears. But, my original idea was the same as Tim Moffet's I prefer that way as it looks the cleanest (carpet,floor pans, etc.), plus a correct weld is stronger than the two metals it adjoins. that would aleviate the concern of having a bent design. Now I just have to learn to weld correctly.
Tim, Can you snap a few more pics for us to oogle over? that's the way I was going to do them on my cuda.
It's your car my friend, I just do the work. I would say to bring her over tommorow (Friday) and let's have a look-see. I'll be home most of the day, give me a ring.
Todd
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/01/03 01:22 PM
Quote:
Tim, Can you snap a few more pics for us to oogle over? that's the way I was going to do them on my cuda.
Yes, tim PLEASE snap some more pics, specifically of the back end where you made the "bend" up to the rear framerails, that is the best idea I've seen so far for a person who does not want to hack up the floor. Did you do anything special for the e-brake? any interferences? thanks.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/01/03 01:49 PM
I would also like to see how the main hoop in Tim's cage is attached to the floor. There aren't any outriggers in the pic, is it welded to a plate on the floor?
I realize that's all it takes to comply w/the rules but I'd feel better with both a plate and the tube running through the outrigger, welded at all three points.
The car's a 'real' GTX, but the fender tag is long gone, the original drivetrain and most of the original parts are gone, and the thing had enough rust in it to where virtually anything I do to it is an improvement. So I really don't feel bad about cutting it, it was already cut in 100 different places before I got it anyway.
Plus the rockers are weak in the car, and with the connectors running through the floor it will help that issue a little more than if they were below the floor.
I mocked it up with a piece of wood yesterday and looks as if the connectors only need to go through the floor for a short distance in the rear footwell area, and if they're sitting flush with the bottom of the T bar crossmember they will clear the front footwell with some slight massaging of the front floorpan ribs.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/01/03 04:24 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need to tie the connector to the floor as much as possible to reap the full benefit of the connector? In fact, this is what's recommended in our illustrious Mopar Chassis Manual.
This thread made me chuck my 2x2 11 gauge tubes and go out and get some 14 gauge 2x3. Cost $7 for 11 feet!
Posted By: marvo451
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/01/03 04:44 PM
Frame connectors should be stood upright in case at some later date you want to ladder bar it. Then you just holesaw holes through the connectors and insert the ladder bar crossmember through it and weld up both sides. I don't like to butt weld ladder bar crossmembers. Have you ever seen one pull loose while under braking at the top end? That is a nasty, nasty handfull!
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/02/03 12:35 AM
btt for zip - lookin' for more pics from tim (please).....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 08/02/03 03:30 AM
Obviously, the consensus here is that the 2x3 is stronger than the 2x2. I have difficulty with this. Somehow my logic (or lack there of) tells me a square is stronger than a rectangle. Can someone elaborate on this?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 08/02/03 04:00 AM
I don't have my mechanics of solids book at home, but I'll try and explain just by saying it is a physical property of the size of the two structures; the 2x3 is larger than the 2x2 and given the same wall thickness and overall length, the larger structure will have the greater torsional stiffness. Next time your in Home Depot, try twisting a 2x2 or 1x1 like a torsion bar, then try it with a 2x3 or a 1x2. The larger structure should be harder to twist. Even though they are solid, the same can be applied to the hollow steel tubing. Try and do a search on the net for torsional stiffness, you mau find a page with equations for different cross sections...
Posted By: AdamMopar
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 08/02/03 04:23 AM
Couldn't you just make som spacers to fit under the floor to the connectors and weld them to the connectors then spot weld them to the floor pans? Thanks, Adam
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 08/02/03 04:26 AM
Quote:
I don't have my mechanics of solids book at home, but I'll try and explain just by saying it is a physical property of the size of the two structures; the 2x3 is larger than the 2x2 and given the same wall thickness and overall length, the larger structure will have the greater torsional stiffness. Next time your in Home Depot, try twisting a 2x2 or 1x1 like a torsion bar, then try it with a 2x3 or a 1x2. The larger structure should be harder to twist. Even though they are solid, the same can be applied to the hollow steel tubing. Try and do a search on the net for torsional stiffness, you mau find a page with equations for different cross sections...
I would think a structure with one side wider than the other would be easier to twist.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 08/03/03 01:28 AM
BTT
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/03/03 04:46 AM
I don't know if I'm waisting my time or yours, with this post, but I've got some pictures of my frame connectors.
They're 2"x 3"x 3/16" full length, slip over rear frame member, full welded to the floor pan, not thru the floor pan,if anyone is interested. The only place they're not welded to the floor pan is small kick up for the rear floor pan under drivers seat.
They're on my '65 Coronet.
Max
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/04/03 05:32 AM
Max, any and ALL pics are welcome !!! I know your pans are different, but if nothing more, it will give a better idea of different ways to do them. The pics might also be added to a tech article on the subject, and could be used for your year/model vehicle for others to enjoy.
You can post 'em, or send them to me or Rich(Zippy)
My e-mail is
belvedere66@hotmail.com the only problem, is the max size I can recieve is 1M at a time. the other option is my work e-mail:
todd.desmarais@verizonwireless.com no size limit there, but harder to get on my personal computer.
Tim, where are ya buddy ???
Todd
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/04/03 01:45 PM
Trail dust, I'm back at work and pulled some equations. Here goes:
The first two equations are for SOLID pieces, I will post the equation for a HOLLOW piece as well, but the idea will be the same. I wasn't able to find a clear equations for the hollow, but the equations I found lead me to believe the trend will be the same.
The section modulus under torsion (Wt) for a square is:
Wt = 0.208a^3 where a is the length of one side.
The section modulus for a rectangle is:
Wt = x*b^2*h, where x is the ratio between the long/short sides (3/2 for our case), b is the short side, and h is the long side
In our case, we have a 2x2 and a 2x3, the square will have a modulus of 1.664 and the rectangle of 2.772, a 40% increase for the rectangle.
Hope this helps..
Maxwedge, post thos pics, or send them to me!!
Tim, where are you?
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/04/03 02:15 PM
Quote:
Frame connectors should be stood upright in case at some later date you want to ladder bar it. Then you just holesaw holes through the connectors and insert the ladder bar crossmember through it and weld up both sides. I don't like to butt weld ladder bar crossmembers. Have you ever seen one pull loose while under braking at the top end? That is a nasty, nasty handfull!
That's enough of a reason right there! I wouldn't consider it right now but who knows what I'll try down the road.
I picked up a good supply of 4 1/2" cutoff wheels at the swap meet this weekend, and will hopefully be able to pick up the steel today or tomorrow and get on it.
re: tacking to the floor from underneath: If it is done that way with the 3" section vertical, the connector will hang down below the frame...not really the way I wanted to do it...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/04/03 03:19 PM
Sorry guys... I was away for the weekend...
I will take some pics tonight and post them...
Tim
Posted By: Gearbox
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/04/03 05:43 PM
This seems to be a very hot topic, and lucky for me because I need to install a set of conectors in my 66 belvedere and have not decided just how bad I want to cut the car up, just a 6 cyl. shell but rust free, perfect for a S/S class. Have you guys received your copy of Mopar Collector Guide, and noticed the tubular bolt in connectors made by a company called Magnum Force, these things look like they might have some potential, made from 1 1/4' round tubing, what would the benifits and disadvantages of a bolt in set-up like these be over the traditional 2x3 installations. Giving some serious thought on calling this company and trying them out. Gearbox.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/05/03 05:17 AM
OK guys sent 4 jpegs to 66 Belvedere, who said he'd post them to Moparts.
I've got about 20 total some need a little help from paint sop Pro. Also when we welded them 3 mo ago I did not have enuff paint to paint them completely. That and living near the coast has made them rusty. please try to overlook unsightlyness.
Max
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/05/03 05:23 AM
A bump in case someones looking for it
Posted By: 3404
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/05/03 10:23 AM
Here is a pic of the pair I made for my Challenger. I used 2x3 tube and cut the rear to fit the contour of the rear frame back to where the frame starts to go up. Everything that touched the floor I cut through. The rear frame rails come up at an angle so I heated the rear of my connectors and tweaked them so they would follow the line of the factory frame but go straight forward to the torsion cross member.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/05/03 12:39 PM
Hey thanks for the ideas, very helpful!
Yesterday I tried to get a head start on the prep work and scraped most of the undercoat off the areas we'll be working on. Now it appears they won't interfere with the ribs in the front floor section once the undercoat is scraped off, and I can live with them running through that short section. That's just a first impression, we'll see if I'm right after we take some measurements and possibly string it/maybe snap some lines.
It also looks like....if a person really wanted to go wild with this idea, 2x4 wouldn't be out of the question
it would have to run through the entire floorpan front to rear though. But that's really more work than I want to do, and probably overkill.
Posted By: 3404
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/05/03 01:09 PM
Cut it tight Zippy. I had to use my jack to gently reaise the sub-frame while I used a block of wood to tao the floor down around the sub-frame to get it in place. That picture is kind of dark, just about where the picture ends towards the front is where the subs quit going through the floor.
Eric
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/06/03 05:17 AM
Well, Rich came over today and we put her in the air (jack) to have a look. I think we've decided to cut the rear pans, and run them upright. We marked the pans and where the connectors will meet the torsion x-member. Now all that needs done is for the brake and fuel lines to be rerouted. We will window the rear rail and slide the sub into it. Also I will punch six or so holes on the sides of the rear rails to weld through to the sub. As for the front, I will be welding a plate to the front of the sub (probably a 3x5) where it will be attaching to the torsion x-member. That should eliminate any possibility of the sub tearing/twisting away from the x-member.
I think I am going to set up the hoist so I don't have to weld on my back.(was waiting to paint the new floor before installing the two post hoist) Did I mention I HATE welding on my back ???
Pics will follow, along with measurements for future projects
Todd
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/06/03 10:29 PM
Well................
I started on it today.
The original idea didn't work!
I wanted to run them through the rear footwell only, and it looked as if we could just massage the ribs in the floorpan to get it to clear in front of that.
So I had the rear cut, and everything was looking fine, and I started to flatten out a couple of the ribs ahead of the cut. It turns out that I couldn't flatten them out enough, and the hammer tore holes through the metal where I tried to dolly it
. And after tearing through w/the hammer in a couple spots, I gave up on that idea and trimmed it up straight.....but now it is a loose fit in that one area
The back section is a tight/force fit for the first foot or so, and the floor has to be tapped with a hammer to get it to sit flat. So that part went perfect, but the very front part will either need some filler material or additional passes with the mig. You have plenty of wire and gas, don't you Todd???
I should be able to do a better job on the other side now that I know what's going to happen, and am going to get on that tonight/over the next couple days.
Should be pretty beefy when it's done
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/13/03 03:38 AM
They're in !! Just a little touch up on a few welds, and all done. I took a decent number of pics, but I haven't the slightest idea how to post 'em. anyone care to advise.
Todd
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/13/03 11:21 PM
Now complete with paint+ a little undercoating. Trying to get ready for the track Saturday.
I am glad we did them this way, they're really integrated with the car and are going to act more like double rocker panels.....as opposed to a separate piece.
Todd, you da man, thx again for all the welding
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/14/03 03:11 AM
IIRC, on unibody Mopars the actual rocker panels are stressed members of the chassis(note where the LATERAL boxing of the rear subframe is on a Hemi car.) The rockers are not tube steel, but they are rolled, double wall steel which are quite strong unless compromised by a significant side load. If this were not the case, a Mopar would collapse like a beer can if it were hit in the side, no?
Therefore, it is logical that on a unibody the further out you reinforce the perimeter, the more effect you will have on minimizing the torsional, or twisting motion. I suggest that with regard to torsional strength, thinner tubing further out from the center can be more effective than larger tubing closer in. The closer to the center, the less effective it will be. Beaming rigidity and compression forces (certainly the main considerations in a rigid foundation in terms of a roll cage) benefit the mostfrom subframe connectors, torsional rigidity is enhanced with a roll cage primarily through the cross bracing BETWEEN the subframe connectors.
A unibody is just that, it's more likened to a monocoque design. That means the roof and floorpan are also major contributors to the strength. A good basic understanding of these can be found in Herb Adam's 'Chassis Engineering' book.
Roll cage issues aside, I've often reasoned that long-Double heim joint adjustable bars (with anchors welded to the subframes) could be lighter and more effective (by being able to adjust preload side to side) than standard subframe connectors. Never got drunk enough to try it though
Wize
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/14/03 04:44 AM
Quote:
Roll cage issues aside, I've often reasoned that long-Double heim joint adjustable bars (with anchors welded to the subframes) could be lighter and more effective (by being able to adjust preload side to side) than standard subframe connectors. Never got drunk enough to try it though
Wize
Uhhhh, I'm going to drink a beer and re-read this comment...
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/15/03 08:28 AM
Wize, all of the Mopar rockers I have seen have been two "halves" spotwelded together top and bottom, just like the rest of the car. The one difference I noticed is the thickness of the steel in the rocker sections. and they do crumple like a beer can when hit, more so on new cars. as was the case with the girl who died when she hit the back of my truck
I do agree with the theory of the torsion relative to the placement of the connectors (inboard/outboard), but am totaly cornfused by the idea of a heim joint for torsional control, as a heim joint by design allows for rotation. There are numerous ways to attack this situation, but Rich wanted an easy, economical, and upgradeable (rollcage, ladder bars, etc.)way to acomplish the task.
We welded the connectors as an extension of the rear frame rails, up to the trans x-member. They slip ~6 inches into the rear rail, I then windowed each rear rail in 5 spots on each side (10 per rail)and welded through to the connectors. Up front, I capped the connectors with a 3x5 plate wich in turn is welded to the x-member ~ 2 inches inboard of the front rails. The floor pans were also welded to the conectors. When it was finished, we jacked the car from the front sub, just behind the tire and the whole side of the car lifted with no flex, where there was mucho before !! That's all I needed to see
Thanks for all the great suggestions,opinions,and help as well as the pics. I have many pics of the installation, but no server to host them. If anyone would like to see them, PM, or e-mail me or Rich.
Todd
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/16/03 06:16 PM
I figured the Heim joint would get ...uhhh, mis-understood
What they would do is allow the existing frame structure to be pre-loaded and the inherent stresses on the chassis adjusted. This is similar and works along with how we Cross-weight the left front torsion bars and right rear shock. Adding subframe connectors will stiffen the entire chassis (albeit IMO not in the ideal places for up to a ~11.50 car) where as I want to allow the left front to flex a little; but not so much that it rips the welds out of the 1/4 panel-roof joint.
I'm not supplementing the beaming strength of the chassis (as a frame connector does), I submit that fore to aft the chassis is inherently strong. I merely looking for a way to find lateral tuning (the torque reaction of the MoPar chassis is very well understood already) and limiting/adjusting (for track conditions) torsionally what is already there.
The rolled steel rocker panels give adequate beaming strength, but mainly due to them being
"supplemented" by the inner skin of the unibody. The rear channels (parallel to the leaf springs)where the typical subframe connectors are roll/formed as well; they are not tube steel channels as many people might think. Unless they are compromised by external forces (such as a perpendicular side load like a crash), they are quite strong.
Also, something many people mis-conceive about MoPar unibodies is this: The front inner fenderwells are actually stressed/integral components in the sub-frame. They are light and are much stronger than many people realize. When you cut them out and replace them with tube steel welded to the firewall, all the mass of the K-frame, motor and suspension is now directed straight to the firewall. This is preferable in a full cage equipped car (as the roll cage itself cross braces and provides rigidity throughout the chassis)but again in doing so you have altered all of the dynamics of the chassis.
Again, the Herb Adams book, particularly the latter chapters discussing Monocoque (more likened to Uni-CHASSIS than UniBody) is particularly enlightening. In short, converting a unibody into a ladder frame car has some advantages(particularly in beaming strength), but also has disadvantages.
I've always been kind of Out-of the box with regard to chassis design, I've been fascinated ever since I saw the MoPar "wire car" pro-stock back in '74.
Wize
Posted By: Vert
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/16/03 07:15 PM
This easily one of the best threads I've seen here!
My question... anyone try a triangular section for chassis stiffening? I thought it would be the structure with the highest resistance to flexing. I can see difficulties in welding it to a non-flat surface. Any thoughts?
Posted By: Vert
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul *DELETED* - 08/18/03 10:03 PM
Post deleted by Vert
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/20/03 07:35 AM
Wize, I'm with you on pre-loading the chassis. I just can't picture the "how to" with a heim setup. (limited scope of vision per se ?) a cage will ultimately make the chassis the most rigid, but the "here and now" was to at least tie the front and rear together.
I was too young to catch the wire car when it was new, but have since found Don's car to be a cool project. It's kinda like mom's cross your heart bra 'eh ??
Vert, A triangle is the strongest shape in nature, especially an equalatteral triangle. that applies to a force exerted to one side. but as for torsional strength, I haven't the brain power to figure it out. In your question, did you mean to make the connectors from triangular stock, or to triangulate the frame (ala rollcage) ??
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/20/03 02:11 PM
Quote:
I merely looking for a way to find lateral tuning (the torque reaction of the MoPar chassis is very well understood already) and limiting/adjusting (for track conditions) torsionally what is already there.
Now I think I understand why you want to use heim joints.
Thanks,
-Molloy
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/20/03 02:13 PM
Quote:
My question... anyone try a triangular section for chassis stiffening? I thought it would be the structure with the highest resistance to flexing. I can see difficulties in welding it to a non-flat surface. Any thoughts?
I'm confused again. Triangular cross section for subframe connector tubing?
Posted By: Vert
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/21/03 04:31 AM
Todd,
I meant making the connectors from triangular stock. Twist a rectangle and it flattens and collapses. Twist an I beam and it bends. Twist a triangle and it...? I don't remember seeing a triangle shape twisted or bent. Stiffness A+, Torsional rigidity? Not sure. Any structural engineers in the house?
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/21/03 04:44 AM
I see what you're saying about triangular cross section connectors.
The body, as an entire unit, will twist and experience torsional forces. The individual subframe connectors, which are closer to the edge of the body, will likey experience more of a classic bending moment, in which case a rectangular box section will likely be best suited.
My 2 cents.
Molloy
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/27/03 05:03 PM
Quote:
I see what you're saying about triangular cross section connectors.
The individual subframe connectors, which are closer to the edge of the body, will likey experience more of a classic bending moment, in which case a rectangular box section will likely be best suited.
I'm way late chiming in here and I apologize for that, but I want to step up in support of Malloy's opinion.
I believe he has it right when he says that the sub frame connectors primarily experince a bending moment (rather than torsion). The further out from from the driveshaft the connectors are, the more this is true. Think of it this way: take a rectangular piece of sheet metal in your hands and twist it like a car twists when you get on the gas. See how the two outside edges of the sheet metal bends? Yes, there is a torsional component to that force, but it's primarily a bending moment and square/rectangular tube is great for that.
BTW, the best shape for pure torsional stiffness is a cylinder. Think drive shaft, torsion bars etc.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled program
-jr
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/27/03 05:25 PM
I thought this thread had died for good, but since it's on the 1st page again (somehow), here are pics of the finished product. I couldn't be happier with how it came out
Rich
Posted By: ThermoQuad
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/27/03 09:35 PM
great thread!
Now for the monkey wrench...how would you install subframe connectors in an AAR or T/A with side exhaust? Cutting into the floor pan is not a problem.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 08/28/03 02:04 AM
The connectors should not hang down much below the crimped edge of the rocker panel. In that case I'd think that a slightly ovalized exhaust would be the ticket. Besides, when has a low exhaust or deep oil pan (w/little clearance) stopped us from tearing-up the streets?
Zippy: Looks just like mine!
May want to think about tying the connector to the seat mounts. I mean they're RIGHT THERE. All you need is an "L" shaped piece of metal. You can get that from left over connector tubing. That way the connector is more positively tied to the rocker.
Posted By: RedCharger
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/02/03 10:54 PM
I have a further question regarding welding in subframe connectors, I am soon to weld them into my Charger and two separate people have told me that the welds should not run the whole length of the subframe connector it should be 2 Inches of weld then a two inch space of no weld. Apparently when people now seam weld race cars they do this also and it is better than a solid weld. What do people think ? I am interested in any comments.
Thanks,
Mike
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/02/03 11:26 PM
Don't sanctioning body rules state they want the floor pan completely welded to the connector? I believe they do here in the states anyway.....
Molloy, yep that is a good idea and I see the potential. It will probably have to wait until later though, probably at whatever time outriggers get added/cage goes in/mount for the seat belt crotch strap gets welded to the connector. It will probably happen but later down the road.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/03/03 01:16 AM
Quote:
two separate people have told me that the welds should not run the whole length of the subframe connector it should be 2 Inches of weld then a two inch space of no weld. Apparently when people now seam weld race cars they do this also and it is better than a solid weld. What do people think ?
It may be "better" because it's (marginally) lighter....or causes less distortion....or because it's strong enough....who knows. One thing is for sure though....for a given size (cross sectional area) stitch welds are NOT stronger than full welds. BTW, aren't you worried about exhaust fumes?
-jeff
Posted By: M_D
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/03/03 03:38 AM
Quote:
Quote:
two separate people have told me that the welds should not run the whole length of the subframe connector it should be 2 Inches of weld then a two inch space of no weld. Apparently when people now seam weld race cars they do this also and it is better than a solid weld. What do people think ?
It may be "better" because it's (marginally) lighter....or causes less distortion....or because it's strong enough....who knows. One thing is for sure though....for a given size (cross sectional area) stitch welds are NOT stronger than full welds. BTW, aren't you worried about exhaust fumes?
-jeff
I second what rank said. In my opinion, on this type of the job stitch welding first and the then filling that in (if desired) would better than welding it solidly in a single continuous pass. The reason is that it somewhat controls heat inducted distortion. On sheet metal, I will usually use a bunch of small tack welds on the whole area first for that reason. The lighter sheet metal with less mass tends to heat up quicker and thus expand or distort more than a heavier piece does.
Posted By: RedCharger
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/03/03 04:01 AM
Yeah I think will run the welds down the whole length of the rails. I am not worried about the exhaust cause I have made a template to follow the floor and I will trim the rails with a plasma cutter to match so I am not actually cutting the floor. I was going to get a mate to weld it with a Tig anyone use a Tig to weld them in ?
Thanks,
Mike
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/03/03 04:42 AM
Redcharger, if you cut the connector to match the floor contour, you will be loosing a good deal of the structural rigidity that a box section gives. I understand if you don't want to cut the floorpan, as I don't want to touch my pans in my cuda either. another option is to let them hang just below the pan, and angle the rear up to the frame rail.
as for welding, a proper weld is stronger than the two metals it adjoins. the best way to weld sheet metal is to "stitch weld" it. this doesn't mean leaving spaces, but to weld an inch skip an inch and so on. then go back and weld the skipped areas. the other option is to do as stated above, spot weld (small weld puddles) down the length, then fill the whole seam in.
what car are you working on? we have quite a few pics of Rich's b-body if you want 'em.
Todd
Posted By: RedCharger
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/03/03 06:38 AM
Hi Todd,
Thanks for explaining the stitch welding it all make sense now. The car is an Aussie Charger it appears the same as a US A body.
Cheers,
Mike
Posted By: roadrunnerreds
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/03/03 08:26 AM
so let me get this straight Zippy.you have some of your 2x3 frame connectors going through the trany crossmember and then overlapping your rear frame rails or our they inside the rear frame rails?also the 3 inch side is standing up?Brad
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 09/03/03 01:26 PM
Brad, the 3" section is vertical.
The rear frame rails were opened at the end and had 5x9/16" or so holes drilled in each side (for a total of 20 holes).
The SF connectors were slid inside the frame rails, welded at the open end, then each of the 20 holes were also welded to close them and attach the connector to the frame rail on three sides.
There is nothing to attach them to at the top side, which again helps make the case for running them through the floor.
At the front, the connector is first welded to a flat plate which is then welded to the trans crossmember.
For a 69 B body you need two 4 foot (even) sections of .083 wall 2x43 tubing to make them, and the connectors themselves don't need any more work to fit, other than welding a plate to the front.
Rich
Posted By: Fasbird
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/06/03 02:44 PM
Adding for reference
Thanks
Posted By: BADBEE
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 08:47 PM
Tim Moffet, could you repost the pics on the bottom of your car with your design of 2 pc welded frame connectors? When this original thread was going around I missed it and the pics dont show up now that I located the thread. Thanks.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 08:53 PM
wow talk about back from the dead...
Since this post, I welded mine in 90° to Zippy, no floor pan welds, and boy what a difference it makes!! I'll post some pics because of they are similar to Tims:
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 08:54 PM
two..
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 08:56 PM
three..
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 08:57 PM
four...
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 08:58 PM
five... check the emergecy brake cable...
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 09:00 PM
six...
Posted By: BADBEE
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 09:21 PM
I thought that would freak some people out when I posted to this old thread. Thanks for the pics whiplash. So you didnt weld yours to the floor pan? Is your a one or two piece steel tubing?
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 09:29 PM
Single piece. Straight, no bends. I think Tims is ine piece, but he just cut a triangle out and bent it closed/welded shut the hole so the back of the bar angled up.
Posted By: BADBEE
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 09:42 PM
Thats why I was hoping I could get Tim to post his pics since our cars bottoms are very similar.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 10:09 PM
Thanks to Ma Mopar the floor pan on '65's B Bodies is nice and flat. No reason to cut the floor pan(s) to recess the subframes when the rear subframe is on the same plane as the floor pans.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 10:12 PM
Floor pan at rear sub-frame, with connector welded in place
Max
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 11:00 PM
Good evening ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the post that wouldn't die!
Glad to see it's still worth discussing, and good to see more jumping on the bandwagon and getting it done.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 11:36 PM
here's some old pics of mine...
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 11:37 PM
#2
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 11:37 PM
#3
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 11:38 PM
#4
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/19/04 11:39 PM
#5
Posted By: nomore65BelvJim
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/20/04 01:12 AM
Max....do you have any more pics of the installed sub connectors? Maybe one from the side showing the whole length? I plan on putting subs on mine this winter/spring....I'm glad I wont have to cut my new rear pans to install....gotta love the early B's!!!!
Excellent thread btw....
Posted By: A990
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/20/04 01:56 AM
Great timing! I am starting to do this to my Dart as well
Todd/Zippy/Clonestocker
The idea of putting connectors into the rear frames has been something I'll do too, but since I am relocating the springs into the frame rails, would butt welding the 2x3 to the new spring boxes add any strength?
Wize
Your thoughts on biasing the chassis are interesting. The circle track guys have a system for that, and I suspect Pro Stock etc have their chassis' assembled with some sort of preload.
It would be interesting to see if putting a twist into the car to counteract torque would do. But can that be done simply?? And done with a turnbuckle type system for adjustability??
One last thing-
My Dart is on stands for leveling fore and aft. However, the left front will not sit on the jack. Will I need to weight the car to get it to flatten out? Or is that normal. The engines & trans are out of the car
-Ken
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/20/04 03:12 AM
Great pics.
Trevor
Posted By: 340duster340
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 03:15 AM
this was great read! only thing i can add is i dont understand the need to weld the connectors to the floors. i can understand why one would want too, but i dont see what it would be necessary. only because on a full chassis car, the frame isnt welded to the floor.
Posted By: origcharger
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 03:29 AM
"i dont understand the need to weld the connectors to the floors. i can understand why one would want too, but i dont see what it would be necessary. only because on a full chassis car, the frame isnt welded to the floor."
Full chassis cars are not as stiff as you think.
Posted By: BADBEE
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 03:47 AM
Thanks Tim. Those are just what I needed. Jeff
Posted By: racealittle
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/20/04 10:14 PM
Zippy, I had Bears Performance (when they still built chassis's)tie my frame back in 1981. They put 2x3 straight and parrallel/ through the floor (in and back out) in my Volare. They put detail into the fabrication of the tie-throughs (swedging up at the front and pass through tubes welded in nicely for cables). The car was a small block 4 spd at the time and it made an immediate difference. When I installed the 440/automatic a few years later, I'm sure it helped but the superstock springs/shocks were needed to hook hard. The driver side upper windsheild developped a crack and I can't keep paint in the roof to b-pillar seams. I'm sure that the way I beat on a car it would have folded up years ago without that mod. There are over 23 years and 500 plus passes on the tie job. I can still pick up the car from the tie-though.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 10:19 PM
Todd DesMarais sent me so pics. and I used them to help with my install. I think they were of Zippy's installation. I just finished mine last week. Here are some more pictures. 67 Coronet Just want to add that this is the first time I ever mig welded and I was pretty happy with the results. Just goes to show you that it isn't that hard. The most time saving tool I used was the air body saw that I bought from Harbor Freight for only $20. Made cutting the floors very quick and easy. Right now I'm using it to cut my tubs since I'm also mini tubbing my car. I'm using pics. from Big Block Dart .coms pages. Very informative. I'm glad to have all this info. on this site from all you guys. It makes doing things yourself so much easier. I hope you guys can use my pics. also
rapom
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 10:22 PM
Picture 2
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 10:26 PM
pic.3
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 10:30 PM
pic.4
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 10:33 PM
pic 5
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/20/04 10:46 PM
Picture of the 3x5's 1/8in. thick plates welded onto the connectors.
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 12:01 AM
Rapom, Nice job, that it the best way to weld those connectors in, and not a bad weld job at all!!
Posted By: CRE2004
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 12:36 AM
Great thread!!! Did anyone read the article in MA about the factory style sub frame connectors that e-berg welded in a b-body? Would these be any good for those that don't want to hack the floor pans??
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 01:00 AM
cre,
Check my pics, I didn't cut the floors. used 2x3x0.125x4' rectangular tube, cost less than $20 plus weld wire
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 01:46 AM
Quote:
Max....do you have any more pics of the installed sub connectors? Maybe one from the side showing the whole length? I plan on putting subs on mine this winter/spring....I'm glad I wont have to cut my new rear pans to install....gotta love the early B's!!!!
Roger that!, and if I can't find em, I'll take some in the AM, when it gets above freezing! I hate laying on cold concrete\
Max
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 01:55 AM
more (drivers side toward differential
Car's so darn long things get fuzzy at the back end Sorry) Wrong picture too, try this one
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 02:07 AM
This is the only area where the floor pan has a kick up. Would have take a lot of filler for this puppy, so I let it slid. Pasenger side by the forward bench seat mounting bolt. It was then butt welded to the T-Bar cross member.
Max
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 02:58 AM
I read about .083 wall, and now .125 wall thickness. Seems the .083 is the favorite, but what about the .125, why is that not more popular? Because of added weight? Anything else? Thanks.
Posted By: pete
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 03:30 AM
Here's mine. I used 2x6, cut it to follow the contour of the floor then welded a 3 3/4" flange on it and spot welded the floor to the flange much the same way our trunk floors are attached to the frame. I drilled a 1/2" hole at an angle through the new rail welded in 3/8" steel pipe, cut and ground flat, this is how my emer. brake cable runs through the new rail. I also made torque boxes, did'nt get the fronts in the pictures. still have a little left to do.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 03:56 AM
I heard the same thing you did Challenger. (.083 and .125) I used .094 thickness and it seemed like it would work well. It was a little thicker than the stock frame which is the reason why I think people go with the .083 thickness.
Thanks for the compliment Whiplash
Posted By: nomore65BelvJim
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 04:16 AM
Much thanks Max, just what I was looking for. No cold concrete here, or rust either
...maybe a move is in order??? All you have to deal with is the plastics turning to powder...oh well...a couple of months of hell
beats winters icy grip for 5 months...
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 11:27 AM
WOW Pete........nice work !! so if I got this straight, when you cut the connector to the floor's contour, did you box it with the flange material, or just weld the flange to the sides? and how about those torque boxes ? home made or bought ??
More pics PLEASE !!!
Todd
Posted By: pete
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 01:06 PM
I boxed them, the torque boxes are mine.
Thx Pete
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 02:28 PM
Thanks Rapom. So, what I can find on sale between .083 and .125 it is then
.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 02:45 PM
Hi Jim, I know enough about Arizona to miss it everyday. We have a 1/3 acre pie slice piece of land overlooking Lake Havasu. It is at the end of a Cul de Sac in Lake Havasu City. Bought it in the 60's, gonna built there one day.
Hope those jpegs helped.. Had to scrape the undercoat off, then weld after taking out the interior. Lotta work, but it's neat putting a jack in the middle of the car and jacking up the whole side of the Coronet., But if I had it to do over I wouldn't have done it with .125" wall. Too heavy.
Max
Posted By: Clair_Davis
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 02:58 PM
Now THAT is how SFC's OUGHT to be... I don't think I have that kind of patience, though. Ugh, that had to be a lot of work. Should be SCCA Street Modified-legal, though... no cutting of the floorpan to install. I just bought some 2x3x(3/16" = 0.1875") sticks to start mocking up my SFC's. They're thicker than I had wanted, but won't add too much weight to my car. It's all down low, anyway. I'll probably install some sheetmetal "struts" to tie the bar in to the floorpan once I get it tied in.
Nice job!
Clair
Posted By: nomore65BelvJim
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/21/04 06:36 PM
Hey Max....Havasu, nice! C'mon out and visit sometime. The pics will be a great help...as soon as I clear out the garage and roll the shell in. The cover hasnt been off for over a year and its time to get back to work on it.
Jim
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 07:41 PM
Rapom, what did you use to get the undercoating off? I am doing an under car cleaning, moving the springs, mini-tubs and connectors, on my 65 Belvedere 1.
I am about to hire a fulltime chiropractor to keep me going w/ the scraping..
So far, it's been paint stripper, kerosene,air putty knife,.. no workie!
About all I can make any progress at all with is the propane torch and scraper. That's fine for flat areas.. it's the corners, joints, uneven surfaces that are killin me!!
Yours looks great! Are you going to sand it down and paint ??
Posted By: Kam*Kuda
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 07:44 PM
Anyone use the new magnum force subframe connectors?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 07:52 PM
Posted By: NotaHemi
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 08:19 PM
talk about getting in on this post late, but should the engine be in the car to do the connectors. Mine is still on the stand waiting to go to the machine shop.
Any disadvantages to doing the cage, SFC without the weight in the nose?
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 09:18 PM
Hey 71challenger, I believe member Pete's car (six or so posts up) is an e-body/71 up b-body. however, his connectors are a little more complicated by the looks of things. beautiful job though, and factory looking to boot.
I also have a cuda that will get connectors someday, and share your concern. I was going to do like Tim did on his Charger, and bend the connectors to fit, but now I think Pete's way is the ticket !
Hows about some more pics Pete ??
Todd
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 10:20 PM
Yeah I saw that, he did a great job. I am just hoping I can stay away from cutting up my new floor pans
.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 10:31 PM
Oldtimer, I started in Nov. and finished in mid Dec.
I tried EasyOff oven cleaner first and it didn't seem to do the job to well. I ended up using a torch and scrapper to do the job. Just worked on it about and 1and 1/2 hours a day. After I'm done with my tubs I'm going to go through rags and Kerosine or Brake cleaner to get off the residue. Then I'm going to Sand Blast everything before painting the undercarriage with Zero Rust. I am using a specialized scrapper that enabled me to get 99.5% of all areas. I'll take a picture of the scrapper later on and post it on this post. I'm pretty sure you can get it at any hardware store.
Posted By: origcharger
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 10:43 PM
Quote:
Yeah I saw that, he did a great job. I am just hoping I can stay away from cutting up my new floor pans .
Have you seen the new subframe connectors that Magnumforce Race Car fabrication is selling? A bit spendy but they appear to have three point attachment, do not require floor cutting and tuck up real nice under the car.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 10:51 PM
I used a propane torch + gasket scraper to get the undercoating off. It comes off easy when it's hot. Then afterward a quick spray with carb cleaner/wipe off prepped it for welding.
Posted By: BADBEE
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 10:59 PM
Here is the Magnumforce Race Car pieces. I think I'll go home made and save some big bucks.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/21/04 11:34 PM
Looks like I'm not too far off w/ the torch and scraper!! Damn! I'm tooooo old for that torture!!
Thanks everyone for the input.. Back on my back..Now I know how a hooker feels!!
Posted By: 68Fastback
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 12:08 AM
Quote:
Here is the Magnumforce Race Car pieces. I think I'll go home made and save some big bucks.
Here are some pictures of how I did my 68 Barracuda using 2x3x1/8 tubing. And yes I have some scraping to do on my undercoating. The connectors are not completely done in the pics but you will get the idea.
Jesse
Posted By: 68Fastback
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 12:11 AM
I will try this again for the pictures
Posted By: 68Fastback
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 12:23 AM
Different view
Posted By: whiplash
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 01:04 AM
Is it just me or do those magnum force ones just ooks like they're not gonna cut it? man for $249, I could and pay myself $50/hr and include materials and still make at least 2 sets!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 03:21 AM
No I have not......until now. Hmmmmmmmmmm
Posted By: pete
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 04:06 AM
71 Challenger I did'nt want to cut mine either nor did I want rails sticking up through the floor pan, but I did want to attach the floor to them. Which is why I did them the way I did, it's a 70 cuda by the way and it really did'nt take that long to do
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 01:49 PM
Thanks Pete. Have a question for you then. Did it interfere with the front seat any (as far as clearance with the brackets), probaly not, but thought I would ask. What about foot placement in the rear floorpan? Cumbersome? Or is the protrusion minimal? Thanks again Pete.
Posted By: mopartony
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 02:39 PM
Quote:
talk about getting in on this post late, but should the engine be in the car to do the connectors. Mine is still on the stand waiting to go to the machine shop.
Any disadvantages to doing the cage, SFC without the weight in the nose?
In a word no. The only time you really need to have the car at wt. is to set ride ht.
If you are using a motor or mid plate bolt those in. It will create some stiffness.
Also unless rules say so go through the floor. It is by far the strongest. But any connector will work, some just better than others.
Tube cars are not as stiff as peopel think is correct but they are stiffer in the places that it needs it. They special built. Look at some pics of fast cars at top end. You will see most have the left front tire either just off the ground or just touching.
As for the front not touching on the jacks. That means the car is already a little bent. depending on where the bend is the frame connectors and cage will straighten out the car. But it should be level or close to it. Re check to make sure the jacks are level. The floor might not be level in the area you are in. Set the jacks where the car will sit and level them front to back and side to side. The mark the spot for the jacks. I will bet that the jacks are not level/even.
Posted By: hemiallen
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 03:42 PM
Just for reference, I used 2 x 3 x 0.125 tube with the 3" being verticle on the boy's 72 duster. I went all the way back to my MP inboard spring kit box by only cutting out the TOP 2" where it interferes with the rear subframe ( Like ken is asking), so I overboxed the original subframe. What is strange to me is, with the above done the floorpan DID NOT need to be cut open, as it perfectly butted against the floor when it bottomed against the original frame rails. I am wondering if my framerails are taller than some others that have done A bodies?
Anyway, my framerail has not been put to the test, but it was nice to not have to cut sheetmetal. This also allowed welding the rail to the floorpan (where the ribs allowed contact to be seen) all the way foreward to the higher section for the front seat. I think that my car was built different than many others, especially since I used bigblockdart for reference, and If I recall they had to cut the pans! Maybe I got metric tubing-LOL
Hope this helps
Allen
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 04:34 PM
Regarding Pete's install (which looks awesome), isn't the connector only as strong as it's weakest/smallest point? If you trim the height to fit flush against the floor, then wouldn't it be the same as just using ~1.5x2" box tubing? I know welding it to the floor helps, and you could do that as well with the 1.5x2" connectors with well placed outriggers (specifies in MP chassis manual)
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/22/04 08:39 PM
Oldtimer, Here is a pic. of the scrapper I used. A lot better than the flimsey flat ones. Plus you can get just about everything.
Posted By: pete
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/23/04 03:46 AM
71 Challenger No interference at all. The floor pan is intact no cuts and the rail is completely under the pan. will try and post an interior pic this weekend. Another reason I did it this way was to make it look as original as at all possible, you'll see I also drilled drain holes, I guess I maybe went to far but what the h#ll I'm only gonna do this once.(on this car)
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/23/04 05:20 AM
Quote:
... I guess I maybe went to far but what the h#ll I'm only gonna do this once.(on this car)
There are probably 100 hack jobs for every tasteful, well-built car. We need more people to go "too far". Nice work!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/23/04 02:10 PM
Thanks Pete, I would appreciate that. And I agree, very nice job!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/23/04 02:16 PM
Man Pete, after reading your post again, and how you said you did not cut it, I went and looked at your pic. I thought you HAD cut the floor, and the connector was running THROUGH the floor (I did my Mustang that way, which is why I assumed you did too). Wow! I did not realize it was just FOLLOWING the bottom of the pan, even more impressive then I originally thought!!!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/23/04 03:14 PM
Read the post and I had a thought that I haven't heard anyone mention. I've attached a pic that vaguely illustrates the welding technique I am considering. Not sure if it's a good idea, but it seems to eliminate what would appear to be a byproduct of welding around a single cross section of a subsection (frame-rail). The idea is to cut the new section at angles that will be welded along the 'rails' in such a way that no two welds are adjacent to each other, therefore the old metal does not have a single cross-section weld that creates an 'overheat' weak-spot.
Any questions?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/23/04 04:33 PM
Hey OldTimer...
Do yourself a favor... If you are cleaning the undercoating off of the entire underside of the car, go out and get a cake serving spatula. There exists a 10-12" long, flexible flat steel with rounded tip. Makes removing undercoating from the trans tunnel and all the radiuses SOOOOO eaasy!
I think I posted a pic of this once before. I will see if I can find it. I have tried EVERYTHING and this was the best by FAR!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/23/04 04:34 PM
Heck, I would even be willing to send it to you, as long as you sent it back after you were done!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:18 PM
Got any pics of the inside yet Pete?
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/25/04 04:33 PM
Quote:
Read the post and I had a thought that I haven't heard anyone mention. I've attached a pic that vaguely illustrates the welding technique I am considering. Not sure if it's a good idea, but it seems to eliminate what would appear to be a byproduct of welding around a single cross section of a subsection (frame-rail). The idea is to cut the new section at angles that will be welded along the 'rails' in such a way that no two welds are adjacent to each other, therefore the old metal does not have a single cross-section weld that creates an 'overheat' weak-spot.
Any questions?
The technique I used for the rear part was as follows:
Cut a 2x3" opening in the rear frame section. Slide in the subframe connector (easier than it sounds), and do a 360 degree weld at the opening (lap weld). Also want to have 4 or 6 holes in the rear subframe where the connector is stuffed and do some welds there too. Cant make the rear any stronger than that. As for the fron, it's just a typical butt weld. Couple gussets can't hurt.
See enclosed pic of rear on my 71 RR:
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:37 PM
'nother pic (welded):
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:43 PM
Pic from the top. Pokes through a bunch on 71 B-bodies. Not as bad as on 69 B-body.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:45 PM
Hey Malloy, do you have any pics of INSIDE the car, of the connector running through the floor?
On edit: Guess I was posting as you were!!!!
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:47 PM
'nother pic from the top:
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:48 PM
trans x-member weld:
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:49 PM
That is what my Mustang looked like when I installed my connectors on it. Good job there.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:50 PM
Thanks. Where's Pearland in Houston?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 04:53 PM
SE side, near Clear Lake, Friendswood. I graduated high school your kneck of the woods, Langham Creek, '90, off of Barker Cypress and FM 529!
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 05:01 PM
Zoiks! That's like 45-115 mins drive from here, depending on traffic.
Ever go to the sat cruise at I-10 and hwy 6 (west side)?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/25/04 05:39 PM
Back in the day when I had a "street" car, we would. We would cruise Westheimer from the 610 loop all the way out to Cinco Ranch, PASSED Hwy 6! We would all meet up in Deer Park on Center Street, and make our way out there. We did that for many years, until the cops got real bad, run us off, and then we all pretty much took our cars off the street, and made them "strip" only cars. I raced in the Fun Ford events for many years (93-00) and was in the process of re-doing my Mustang, got CRAZY with the money I spent on it, and decided I wanted a street car again, so now I have a Mopar!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/26/04 01:00 AM
Great posts , after reading all about how frame conectors are a small gain in stength in the body twisting department ,and that you realy need a cage ,and that its the cross bracing of the cage is what stops the twisting etc ,etc ,etc,this got me thinking . Ok guys here are a few ideas to throw around that may (or maynot) help without installing a cage.Ok behind the back seat of most Mopars is 'X' bracing already ! This rear deck area behind the seat is also reinforced on convertables yes ! So tie this into the subframes for extra strength, you could use tube and could hide it behind the seat for an almost stock apperance .Same could be done up front with a little thought. Well what do ya think ?Could work.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/26/04 04:14 PM
I was thinking about boxing the same cross braces (behind the seat) that you are referring to. I think tying them into the rear subframe is also an excellent idea! My 71 RR chassis is picked clean so now is the perfect time.
Posted By: A990
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/26/04 05:17 PM
RLB, Malloy
Ive been thinking about that very thing too, but on the fron end! lol
What if a diagonal brace was put across the firewall and core support somehow. It seems the engine is the prime source of torsional stress. hmmm. Tying the seat brace sounds good too
-Ken
Posted By: Q5_Ed
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/26/04 10:10 PM
Good info....
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/27/04 12:51 AM
Actually on a B or E body you could probably tye the frame rails in the engine bay against the fire wall to the top of the plenum in a "V" shape and then from that center point on the fire wall two stut braces like Mustangs to just above the suspention ( shocker ) pad. ! Just a thought.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/29/04 01:08 AM
Hey , have you guys run out of ideas ?
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/29/04 10:14 AM
1UglyFish (YES it is,what lake did that northern come from?) I'm not sure what your getting at, but a proper weld is stronger than the pieces it joins. the "overheated area" I think you are refering to is an annealed or heat treated area so to speak. it looks bluish in color and is approx 1/4 to 5/16" wide. this is for a gmaw (mig) welded joint on .083-.125 material. this area is slightly brittle compared to the base metal, but acts as a transition to the hardened weld.
the best way to attach two pieces is to plug weld through the base material. this is what I, and a few others have done. for maximum strength, the total contact area of the two materials needs to be figured out, then a 50% split of each to be welded. make sense??
My welds on the bottom of ZIPPY'S car don't look all that good, and I'm not proud of their show appeal, but they have great penetration.
have I ever said I hate welding on my back
(inside joke)
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/29/04 04:05 PM
is this cranking hp or rear wheel hp ?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/29/04 04:43 PM
I get it now! 50% through welds as opposed to 100% involved welds. Makes perfect sense and Malloy's pics really gave me good ideas.
Hey Malloy, what type of welding equipment do you use? What do you recommend if using 110VAC service? I hear Lincoln is excellent, but I don't know where to find a good used one.
Great link, this should go into the archive!
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/29/04 04:53 PM
Quote:
1UglyFish (YES it is,what lake did that northern come from?)
Oh yeah. That was my first (and only) experience with ice-fishing. We were at the N end of Stony Creek in 1996. It was only about a 12-14" and he went back for a swim. But he was my inspiration for the passion I have for Cudas. The one I'm building now is going to be hideously ugly and stupid strong. I'm going to build a cruiser that I can beat the hell out of and really enjoy. The paint is going to be scaled and colored like a real Barracuda. I can't wait for it to be done, but thanks to MOPARTS, it's coming right along.
Posted By: Slider
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/29/04 07:36 PM
Ok, I followed this through three (more than that?!) recessiatations, and I have a question. When cutting the top of the SFC to match the contour of the floor pan (like pete did), how do you get the pattern of the contour onto the SFC to cut it? Thanks!
And, excellent work and thread!
Posted By: A990
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/29/04 09:23 PM
Slider, a contour gauge will do it
You probably could borrow one, they are very handy. Bodyshops use them a lot
Ken
Posted By: Slider
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/30/04 01:59 AM
Sweet! Thanks, Ken.
Posted By: cudadan
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 01/30/04 02:14 AM
Quote:
'nother pic from the top:
Are you stick welding that or flux core welding it.I see the slag hammer,just wondering.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/30/04 02:58 AM
Quote:
Hey Malloy, what type of welding equipment do you use? What do you recommend if using 110VAC service?
I use a Miller Synchrowave 180 (cheapie TIG, if there is such a thing).
I think Miller and Lincoln both make nice equipment. I would push for more than 110V service if you plan to do more than body work. I used to run an extention cord from my dryer hookup to the garage for welding. But that left the door ajar, and one night a possum got into the house -- After trying to coax the thing outside for ~2 hours, I ended up shooting the possum with a .223 round in the kitchen. After that, I had my garage rewired for 220V and left the door shut.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 01/30/04 02:17 PM
OTFLMAO
I had the same kind of thing happen with a coon once. He got under the house and wouldn't stay still, he kept me up all night. I got fed up and went down there and shined him and blasted his head off with a 20gauge. Problem was, he was tucked way back into the shallow end of the crawl space and I couldn't get him out. A week later, the sucker started to really smell. Luckily, my lease was up and I moved out. I love renting!
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 02/01/04 01:50 AM
I use a lincoln 3200HD from "the depot" (120v) it was on sale for $400. same as the 135 model, but it doesn't have a variable temp, instead it has 4 heat settings. I've used the millermatic 135 as well, and would say they are equal. my guy at AGA gas prefers the lincoln and says his customers have better luck with them over the miller.
T.
Posted By: cudadan
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 02/14/04 05:32 PM
Quote:
'nother pic from the top:
does this get it the way of the front seat's?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 03/25/04 01:34 PM
Should I weld in the subframe connectors on my Ebody before or after I rip out the floor pan?
Does it make a huge difference, if the pan is going to be fabricated later anyway? 
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 03/25/04 02:21 PM
Wow this thread came back from the dead again?
Quote:
does this get it the way of the front seat's?
No, not at all. It sits under the seat but doesn't affect the movement of the tracks or anything like that. Basically sits right between the tracks.
Quote:
Should I weld in the subframe connectors on my Ebody before or after I rip out the floor pan?
Does it make a huge difference, if the pan is going to be fabricated later anyway?
I would get the floor welded in first, then measure/mark where the SFC is going to go, then do the SFCs. That way you can keep the gap to the floorpan tight.
If you put the SFC's in first, it could be done that way but it will be alot harder to mark where everything goes, keep the gaps tight and cut accurately. Or at least it would be harder for me.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 03/26/04 12:21 AM
Before I forget again, let me attach the 2 pics. Maybe they'll hang around for awhile this time.
1 attached...
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 03/26/04 12:23 AM
2
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 03/26/04 04:11 AM
Have you gays seen the new tubular double rail SFC,s from Magnum Force .They look very trick, wonder how well they work.
Posted By: Reddart
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/01/04 08:21 PM
Quote:
Have you gays seen the new tubular double rail SFC,s from Magnum Force .They look very trick, wonder how well they work.
Well, I'm not that way (not that there's anything wrong with that...)
Hard to tell from the pic, but they look like they might conform to the floor, for a nice low profile installation without cutting the floor, as well as a plate to weld a solid connection to the floor.
Anyone seen these, or wish to comment on this?
Here's a link, if anyone is interesrted link
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/23/04 08:36 PM
Bringing this post back from the dead again,anyone tried those tubular connectors mentioned above,curious how they work.thanks-Harvey
Posted By: AdamR
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/23/04 09:09 PM
These pics make me want to throw out the bolt in connectors I was going to weld in and make some out of 2X3" stock
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/23/04 11:45 PM
Wow. This is the longest running tech thread I have ever seen. Pretty amazing how long it has lasted, but I think this topic is pretty important. Even if a guy is never going to race his car, these things are unibodies after all and they are getting to be a little old.
This thread has lasted through a pretty important time in the evolution of my car. It went from 11.70s to 11.50s, to 11.20s and the SFCs have been in the whole time.
I like street driving and going to the track and doing a little racing (more test and tune, just to make improvements...though I do get the occasional grudge race), but track tech has not been very kind to me at 11.20s and no roll bar ("slow down or go home") so that's the latest project.
If you find yourself in the same boat, see the attached pic for how the bar ties into the SFCs. This is far stronger than having the bar sit on plates, and it won't work with bolt on SFCs. The outriggers are the same 2x3x.083" steel, and they cost 8 dollars at Dixie Machine and Fabricating
It isn't anywhere near done yet but I will be working on it all this weekend.
Posted By: DynoDave
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/24/04 12:10 AM
Holy cow, this post is still alove and kicking??? It's about to celebrate it's first birthday. Should have have a party or something?
Posted By: OUTLAWD
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/24/04 12:24 AM
haha...this is one long thread...
i just fitted the connectors for my car this morning...but couldn't weld them in...it started to rain
while i am at it, i am also fabbing up a driveshaft loop/crossmember that will tie the connectors together...
i'll post some pics up when i'm done...
Posted By: AdamR
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/24/04 01:19 AM
Zippy do those out riggers go threw the floor boards also or do they just sit on top of them ?
If they go threw them do you have a picture from underneath ?
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/24/04 01:51 AM
Quote:
Zippy do those out riggers go threw the floor boards also or do they just sit on top of them ?
If they go threw them do you have a picture from underneath ?
They go through the floor, but they haven't been welded underneath yet because Todd DesMarais hates welding on his back, and we are going to put the car on his lift to do that job (eventually) . No pics from the bottom yet, but I will try to remember to take some when Todd welds it.
I trimmed the floorpan a short distance away from the rockers on the inside so the outriggers could be welded directly to the rocker sills, then the floorpan was welded back on in that area. Attached is a close up of the top.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/24/04 02:00 AM
And here's the basic idea (attached), though mine will be an 8 point instead of a 10.
Jegs and Comp Eng. sell an outrigger kit for something like $40-$50. I got the two pieces for $8, two more would be another $8
The steel is inexpensive compared to the labor, but it's a labor of love anyway.
Posted By: Schwinger
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/24/04 02:27 AM
Wow, this thread's been around here longer than I have!!
I opted for the 2x3 tubing, welded through the floor, and outriggers for the 10-point cage. I'm very happy with it
JC
Posted By: AdamR
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/24/04 10:37 AM
That looks really good. I may need to take a trip to the steal yard and pick up some 2x3. May as well do it right the first time.
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 07/29/04 09:23 PM
I see a documentary in the making.
"The steel is inexpensive compared to the labor, but it's a labor of love anyway"
Hmmmmm...........y'know I like you and all, but the love thing ? we're not going to be taking warm showers in the middle of the morning together, right ! If so, I've got some splainin' to do !!
I've got a full bottle of argon and the hoist is clear, sorta.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/16/04 09:34 PM
Winter is almost here. This is a good time to stiffen up the old car. Saw a post about frame connectors and thought this post needed a little bump.
I did my car last winter with the help of this post and some of the members. (Thanks) I have some pics I can e-mail if anyone wants to check them out.
Posted By: Vert
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 06:31 PM
Bump...
And why not post those photos as most of the older ones have dropped off and are no longer available.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:08 PM
Ok here goes. I welded these connectors on my 67 Coronet. This pic. is the 3 x 5" .125" thick plates that get welded on the end of the 3x2 tubing.
for attaching the connectors to the frt. crossmember.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:13 PM
Here is the 4' lengths of the 2x3's. The thickness I bought was .092" which I thought was more than strong enough and I could have gone lighter.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:17 PM
Here I cut the frame out and the 2x3's fit in perfectly. I also drilled the holes in the frame to plug weld the connectors. I used the connectors to scribe the lines on the floor pans to cut them.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:24 PM
Here is how the floor pan looks after I got done with it. I used a cheap $20 high speed air body saw from Harbor Freight which made the job easy.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:31 PM
Here's another pic of the cut.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:33 PM
Here is a pic of how nice the connector slides into the car frame rail.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:35 PM
This is where the front of the frame connector is welded to the crossmember.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:40 PM
I welded the front and the rear of the connector before I started welding it to the floor. When welding to the floor I just welded 1in. beads. This was the first time I ever mig welded and I thought it turned out good.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:43 PM
Here's a few pics under the car
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:45 PM
Another
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:48 PM
Pic topside of the connector all welded in.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:50 PM
Here's another view
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 09:56 PM
Special thanks to Todd DesMarais and others for the pictures and info they sent me.
Posted By: Molloy
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/24/04 10:34 PM
Looks like another sweet job. You chassis guys think it's worth it to tie the seat supports into the connector? I'll you need is a small, "L" shaped piece of metal to bridge the gap. It then forms a "ladder" between the rocker and the subframe connector. I did that on my Charger and I'm thinkinbg about doing it on my RR.
Posted By: dart70la
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 11/24/04 10:48 PM
This in regards to a post on Page 2 regarding max file size that can be sent to Hotmail. This may have been brought up by someone else on page 3 or later as I have not gotten that far yet.
Hotmail has bumped up their storage limit to 250 MB and file attachment size to 10 MB. The only problem is they may be rolling the service into effect and it may still be the old 10MB, 1MB file limit.
Posted By: AdamR
Re: Subframe connectors, which way shoul - 11/24/04 11:17 PM
rapom Very nice job. Im gonna have to cut mine out and redo them. I wasnt happy with how they were done the first tim.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/25/04 12:10 AM
Great job rapom. Looks just like mine did before the outriggers and roll bar.
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/25/04 12:44 AM
More pics to add since the old ones are all dead...
This is the outrigger + main hoop installation
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/25/04 12:49 AM
This is the full roll bar.
Kicker bars are welded to the frame tie.
Side bars are welded to front outriggers (2x3 stub welded between the rocker and the frame rail)
The only pieces that are sitting on plates are the two rear bars, in the trunk...everything else is part of the structure.
The eventual need for a roll bar was a real deciding factor when doing the frame ties this way....it paid off to plan ahead.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/25/04 02:25 AM
Thanks for the compliments guys. Molloy, I'm no chassis guy but that sounds like a good idea. Zippy, I think the pics Todd DesMarais sent me were of your the install of the connectors on your car. I wasn't sure though.
Your cage install looks awesome. You won't have to worry about the car not being stiff enough when you have future torque upgrades.
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/25/04 08:38 PM
Holly Crow, IT'S STILL ALIVE !!!!!
Good job John, I'm a bit supprised that you welded the floor on the bottom also. and yes the pics I sent you were of the "Zippety Doo Dah's" car
sorry Rich, had to say it.
Todd
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/25/04 09:31 PM
I also thought it was a little overkill but I welded both sides because I wanted it to look cleaner. I also mini tubbed and moved leaf springs into the frame rails last winter. This fall I replaced some of the trunk floor and cleaned off the sounddeadener on the inside quarters. I wanted to sandblast and paint the undercarrage but it now seems a little to cold for putting on the Zero Rust since it has to be above 50 to use it. My next big jobs this winter are to replace the lower rear quarters and fill in the trim holes down the side of the car. This pic is of some 325/50/15 drag radials that fit in the tubs nicely now. The car will be sitting a lot lower than the pic shows though. Did you do any work to your 66 yet.
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/27/04 03:16 AM
"it has to be above 50 to use it." three words, Radiant Tube Heater
I love the lines of a coronet 'specially with meats in the back !
As for work on mine, well.....I did get it to the house this summer and have removed the hacked on drivers rocker panel. it was repaired from an accident and obviously done by someone who either didn't care, or had no idea of how to do a quality job. they "removed" some of the damaged rocker with a chisel and put one from another car over it by using a hammer and brazing rod. so I picked up a parts car for the rocker and a-pillar door post (piece where the vin tag is riveted) since mine has a slight inward bend to it.
I'll ship a few pics .
Todd
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/27/04 02:44 PM
I really didn't want to paint in my garage if I didn't have to. With all the fumes and everything plus I would have to cover my other cars up and I have a pooch that sleeps in the garage over night. But I might do it. I look forward to seeing your pics.
Posted By: Dos Snails
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/12/05 03:56 AM
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/12/05 08:47 PM
Good idea, this thread has to much good info to let go.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/13/05 06:27 AM
hmmm interesting i did mine completly different i used 3x3 cut the flour pan, and on the rear of the original frame its L shaped at the flour pan then i welded in 1/4 x 3 x 8 inch plates to the original rear frame and rear conector.then in the front on the scrossover the flour pans on the front are cut out so i boxed the tranny crossmember witch looks flimsy anyways and added gussets to the inside of it to make it more riggid then i welded the front of the connector to it.After that i welded in a 3x3 in the back across the frame at the shock crossmember and cut the old thin cheep shock crossmember out and added gussets to the frame as well,then i went back in side and welded 2x3 from the rear of the frame conector across over the tranny hump and back to the other frame conector and added gessets so now the the tranny crossmember (that i boxed in) and the frame connectors are all one piece in both directions .then i added 1/8 x4 to the inside of the frame ralls from the trans crossmember all the way's to the radiator crossmember and trimed it to match the frame the car is solid as a rock Next i'm going to start drilling holes every place i can to loose weight.
Posted By: Dos Snails
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/14/05 03:11 AM
Damn, Motorcar you building a tank?
Posted By: 6PKRTSE
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/14/05 04:42 PM
I guess I'll participate & keeps this one going also. There is another thread going right now on frame connectors also. The is what I did with mine. I have done mine a totally different way then everyone else. It was alot of extra work. But I am going for that sleeper look (if that is possible with a HEMI car!!!!) I want the all stock look. I cut off the rocker panels of my 70' Challenger & hid the 2"x3" tubing inside the body. I tied it into the transmission cross member body support at the front stitch welded along the entire body & into the side of the rear frame rails at the rear. I obtained an original set of factory E-body boxed in spring perches from an original HEMI parts car. Once I installed these the only way to tell the car has been frame connected is to look into the small square hole from underneath that is there to mount the rear leaf spring mounts. It came out awesome but was alot of work. The car is still on the rotisserie as of now completely stripped & there is no body flex at all.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/14/05 08:53 PM
Wow, that is a lot of work!
Posted By: 6PKRTSE
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 04/15/05 04:16 PM
Yes it was. But it is probably going to be a 10 second all steel,full interior,all stock appearing street car. To modified to run pure stock. I will probably do the same thing to my Charger when I finally restore it someday. But for now I just made some quick welded 1-1/2"x2" connectors like everyone else has when I put the HEMI in the Charger. They definately make a difference. Frame connectors should of been factory for big block cars.
Posted By: mopurist
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/08/05 07:06 PM
Old thread but GREAT information. Unfortunately the pictures appear to be long gone.
I am working on my '69 RR and am at the point where I have to decide what type of SFC to use. After reading the thread, I am leaning towards the 2x3 homemade units extending into the rear subframes.
Although I think many of the post adequately describe the process, pictures are worth a 1000 words, blah, blah, blah...
Anyone care to repost the pictures of theirs? Please!
Thanks.
Posted By: 70Coronet500Vert
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/08/05 07:12 PM
Check out the ones from US CARTOOL designed to be welded directly to your floor. They look great.
Posted By: mopurist
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/08/05 10:05 PM
I did check out uscartool.com, but I couldn't find any information on connectors for a 69 b-body (only e-bodies and 71-2 b-body).
They do seem nice, and if they are available for a 69, I would definitely give them serious consideration, even though they are nearly 10x the cost of a length of 2x3. The almost-factory look and no need to worry about hacking the floorpan may be worth it.
Posted By: Snailpower
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/08/05 10:37 PM
I just got a set of them at the Nationals and I must say I am impressed. I have not had a chance to install them yet, but I can't wait. Funny thing is, I just finished some 2x2 connectors on my wagon, which made a big difference in the car WITHOUT tying into the floor. The Coronet is much faster and will see dragstrip duty, so the US Car and Tool frame connectors is the way to go for the turbo car. Besides, John at US Car and Tool is great to deal with!
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/08/05 11:24 PM
Hello, I will send you a privite message so I can send you all the pictures I have. They take a long time to download onto Moparts. And you are right. Pictures of the install made it a lot easier to put my own in. I took a lot of pictures so you should have no problem making up your own.
Posted By: Damned67
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 01:49 AM
I read through thhis thread just the other day. Please, someone repost the pics?
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:08 PM
Ok, here you go. Here are the connectors with 3 x 5" 1/8"thick plates welded on the ends.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:10 PM
Here is the floor cut for the connectors. Use the connectors to trace the lines in the floor to cut out.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:12 PM
Here you can see the frame rail cut out so the connectors can slide in.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:14 PM
I drilled some holes in the side of the rear frame rails to plug weld the connectors. May be a little over kill.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:16 PM
Frame connector slides nicely into frame rail like it was made to fit.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:17 PM
Getting ready to weld front of connectors.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:19 PM
Top view.
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:21 PM
Welded in connectors
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:23 PM
Another view
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:33 PM
And another
Posted By: rapom
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/09/05 08:37 PM
After sandblasting and Zerorusting. Inside frame rails were painted after picture was taken.
Posted By: John426
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/10/05 02:22 AM
Sorry about the web site - we are behind on all the updates!
Quote:
I did check out uscartool.com, but I couldn't find any information on connectors for a 69 b-body (only e-bodies and 71-2 b-body).
They do seem nice, and if they are available for a 69, I would definitely give them serious consideration, even though they are nearly 10x the cost of a length of 2x3. The almost-factory look and no need to worry about hacking the floorpan may be worth it.
We do have the 66-70 B-Body versions done along with the E Body versions - just drop a note or send a PM for all the details (pricing!) - I have pictures of several installs done by test pilots.
Biggest benefit of using the laser cut version is not haing to cut the floor. Hard to carpet after you weld the tube in as well (chuckle), but that would be les important for a full-on race car.
Hope That Helps!!
John Pasemann
www.UsCarTool.com
919-855-8200
PS - we have a banner ad coming here on moparts!!
Posted By: Todd_DesMarais
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 11/01/05 07:41 AM
Rapom, good to see it still kicking (the post) I thought for sure that the pics you posted were from Zipp's car until I realized I don't own those jack stands
Nice job !! looks great with the zero rust. (please PM me with more info on that product)
Zipp's car (polara) just left tonight after a 3 month visit to repair the drunk driver's reconfigure, so......now the Belvedere gets finished !! Pics to come.
John426, awesome work on those connectors also !! I like the clean factory look, and will be ordering two sets (66 b-body & 74 e-body) in the near future as I can't bring myself to cut my own cars, just others.
Todd
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/03/06 02:40 PM
bump
Posted By: jcastle1
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/03/06 04:08 PM
I just bought the U.S.Car Tool 69 b-body frame connectors at the Nats and installing them now.
Warning if your car has been thrashed on in the past these connectors are not an easy fit!
Much grinding work will be needed on the high spots of the connectors to make them fit flush.
Nice people out there to deal with though,and seems like a great quality product.
Posted By: A70Runner
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/03/06 06:58 PM
Is this the longest running thread in history? The first post was made Wed Jul 30 2003 02:28 PM WOW.
On topic I have the US Car tool connectors and they fit great.
Posted By: CRE2004
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/03/06 08:22 PM
Quote:
I have the US Car tool connectors and they fit great.
Me too, to John... A big
Posted By: ZIPPY
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/03/06 10:52 PM
Hey this thread came back again
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: Subframe connectors, which way should we - 09/03/06 11:12 PM
Quote:
Hey this thread came back again
