"Stage II" porting....its not all the same

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 01:44 AM

Quote:

I don`t think the examples "A,B,C" were meant as different shops versions of stage II porting,but as a reference as to the differece between stage 1,2 and 3 porting.

these are results from heads from 3 different shops.

Posted By: moderncylinder

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 01:51 AM

i cnc stuff,, i never really got into the whole stage thing, just however much money you want to spend ill do that much work, for people on budgets. i am relatively fast grinding on heads, its been hard for me to employ anyone because of this. fastplymouth is right, you should disregard the stage crap and go to a place based on reputation or a guy that you believe is honest. if a place gets 800 for whats called stage 2 they shouldnt be in business unless its a prostock head or something. 400-500 in labor for porting is a stage 2 deal id say. bowls, turn the shortside, blend the chambers, and the intake openings. or something like that,,,, just goto someone who is honest, has a "following" or a good customer base that says good things about him.it takes a good head porter about 20hrs labor to fully port a set of heads, 30 for a more race head. and remember airflow isnt everything, area matters, and good quality guides and a good valve job is the #1 priority, if the valves dont seal, all else doesnt matter.

jeff
modern cylinder head

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:02 AM

Quote:

if a place gets 800 for whats called stage 2 they shouldnt be in business unless its a prostock head or something. 400-500 in labor for porting is a stage 2 deal id say.

sort of depends on what you're getting, doesnt it?

does the price include honing the guides, the valve job and assembly, or are those things extra?

Jeff, just curious.......on something that you wouldnt do on your CNC machine, how much do you charge per/hr for porting?

Posted By: moderncylinder

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:11 AM

read it as it says,, 400-500 in porting. if i do something by hand, ill get 80-100/hour, but agian im fast at what i do, it takes me about 4 hours to port and polish an indy manifold, and about 17 hours to fully hand port a set of indy bb wedge heads. are you getting 800 for a stage 2? how much do you get to fully port a head if thats your price? just curious as to yuour hourly rate for hand porting.

jeff

Posted By: TS3303

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:24 AM

I think the most important thing is good communication with your porter. You have to tell him what you want to accomplish and he needs to know what you have for a combination. I use Jeff exclusively, and I think my performance speaks for itself with the small Icky 440-1's. I started with just bowls and gasket matching and had him tweak on them every couple years as funds were available till I got to max potential (we are at max aren't we Jeff?). Every step was reasonably priced and showed results.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:27 AM

my stage II includes everything except parts.
valve job, cleaning, hone guides, back cut valves, assembly, porting, and a flow test.
i get 45/hr for porting.

for a set of SR's, thats $800.
the whole port gets reworked, and on these heads i spend quite a bit of time trimming down the guide bosses and trying to get the intake short turns right.
i figure on about 13.5hrs for the porting portion of this job, which is basically a mild full port job.

IMO, this is how much work it takes to make a worthwhile improvement in flow over basic bowl porting/gasket matching.

on the 17hr type job for the 440-1's, what would the finished runner volume be??
and if i read that right....at $80-100/hr you'd get $1360-1700 for fully hand porting those heads.

i havent done too many of the 440-1's, but it takes me about 22hrs to do them, and the intake runners end up at about 335cc's for that level of work.
i havent figured out how to get the chips to come out any faster than that.

Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:30 AM

Jeff,

Have you done any porting on Bulldogs yet? Need to have a set done. Just curious.

Thanks

Todd

Posted By: Brian Hafliger

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:33 AM

FWIW...I usually port a head based on many, many things like what the customer wants, rpm, car, converter and so on. I may even build an intake port up in some cases like a 350 chevy using too big a head...if I cant get the guy to sell the heads and use the right one, I may epoxy up the port some and spend less time actually porting, yet the price is more because of the time epoxing and the cost of the epoxy.
Brian

Posted By: moderncylinder

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:37 AM

yes, but i drop it to 950 in porting labor, 150 valve job, 150 guides if they are replaced, and 60-75 for assembly with seals. like i said im faster than most, its not in getting the chips to fly out faster, its in using the right cutters and grinders to be faster. my cnc makes em fly out fast,, takes about 3 hours to fully port a head with chambers.by the way i read your post youd get about 500 for your stage 2,, which is what i said....
i meant no harm dwayne.

jeff

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 06:50 AM

it is an interesting comparison from shop to shop. the "stage" term has always kind of bugged me alittle. as dwayne said, there's just no standard in the industry to support one stage of work vs. another. i like his way of thinking on it though. i've had heads at our place that were supposed to flow some big #'s that just didn't live up to them, and some that were very good from other shops. i won't mention any names so no war gets started, LOL. AFAIK i haven't had any of moderncylinderheads come through our shop. i have had heads from dwayne porter in there and i know the quality of the work he does. i'd trust him to port any head for any given combo based on what i've seen and the results i've gotten with his work. i quit porting heads some years ago due to lack of time, but it's pretty easy for anyone with experience to tell the real good head porters from the wanna-be's at a glance of their work. i'm sure moderns work is good also, based on what i've heard. one day maybe i'll get to see some of it.

Posted By: 493_DART

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 07:02 AM

"the SR head comes with a poor valve job and no porting or blending at all, so IMO the first stage of improvement with them is a decent valve job, and blend the bowls and intake opening.....or about the same work that an E head comes with. "

WOW---THANKS INDY HEAD----------NOW I WILL THROW MY $$$$ TO EDELBROCK.

that [profanity deleted] me off-----pay high $ for a race product and you get bent over the table.Thankfully we have the web to share this info !!!!

Posted By: 493_DART

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 07:14 AM

Sorry to vent --- im just saving up to buy a set of "race" heads-----and i want them to be right for $1300............

Posted By: FastOne

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 10:14 AM

I remember back to the time when it was common to refer to a cam as being 1/4 race, 1/2 race, 3/4 race, full race...no in betweens, it was either one or the other..LOL!, the term for stage 1 , 2 , or 3 etc, for porting seems to be the fashion at this time, though it sets a standard for a set price & the amount of work done, which as seen does vary from one shop to another.

There's so many variations in combinations I prefer to stay with the custom porting theme for doing work

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 01:26 PM

Once again,
We get well thought out information, presented in an easy to understand format, backed up with solid data. Sure, Fast has strong opinions, especially in the area of cylinder heads, but he's never been afraid to back those up with a solid foundation of facts, experience, and reason...which is why he's easily one of the most respected and sought out contributors to this board.

As Sg303 put it, a customer needs to have good communication with his machinist/porter to get the correct amount of modification for his budget/performance goals...obviously the guys who do this kind of work, and regularly post here show a penchant for good communication skills!!!

One of the most common mistakes I see customers/racers make is to order heads/porting based on intended growth of thier engine program...then they are dissapointed when the product doesn't perform well on thier mild 440, even though they clearly placed an order for the all-out 528 they intend to build in a year or two.

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 02:56 PM

While we're talking about SRs, what should $1300 worth of work pay for....including valve job and resurface.

What I'm driving at: is it fair to compare CNC porting to hand porting at the same price point?

Posted By: TS3303

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/14/04 04:41 PM

Zippy I think you'll find that the CNC labor vs manual labor on the porting will be the same. Although the CNC is alot faster someone has to pay for the initial cost of the machine. Also remember the CNC program had to be created using a hand ported set first. Could you imagine trying to pay off one of those by only charging 3 or 4 hours labor for the porting...yikes.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/15/04 02:54 PM

while there are certainly pros and cons for most things engine related, i like the "stage I", "stage II" type of concept when it comes to head porting in most circumstances.
it takes care of several issues....for both the customer and the supplier.
both sides know what the cost is, and what the expectations are, as well as exactly what work will be performed.

like Jeff, i used to just do as much work as what the customer wanted to spend.
sometimes that works well, sometimes its just the customer spending extra $$$ for almost no gain.

as an example.....say i charge $500 for a "stage I" prep on a set of heads, and $800 for a "stage II".
the customer may have $600 they want to spend for that portion of the motor build.
an extra $100 applied towards a "stage I" job isnt really going to do much of anything in terms of a performance gain when you have to divide the $100 worth of labor between 16 ports.
in most cases all it does is lighten the customers wallet a little, and they would have been better off spending that same $100 on something else.

for me, the step from a stage I to a stage II is what i feel is the amount of extra work thats necessary to make the heads enough better to show a performance difference.
trying to improve upon a stage I job, without going all the way to a stage II isnt an effective use of the available funds, IMO.

no, its not going to satisfy everyones needs....but it does work for the majority of the people i deal with.
i can tell them the price, what labor will be performed, and what they should flow when completed.
in a way, its a lot like having a set of heads CNC ported.
the CNC porting shop knows how much they are going to charge, and what they should flow when finished.
this is the same type of thing for us smaller shops that dont have CNC porting equipment, who are trying to satsify the needs for people who dont quite need the heads to be ported to that level.

the main purpose of this thread was more to educate the Moparts members(rather than argue the pros and cons of the "stage" porting philosophy), so that they would be more aware of the differences in the amount of work different shops do under the same name.
when shopping for heads, if you're dealing with a shop that does use the "stage" type of terminology for their work....dont just assume you know what you're getting for each level of porting/prep they offer.
ask them to explain what you'll be getting for your $$$.

this post was prompted by the AeroHead BB E heads i have in the shop now that got their "stage II" porting.
lets just say there are MUCH less modifications done to the ports that if i did them to my stage II package.
after seeing what was done to these heads....i can see why they are able to charge $250 less than i do for "stage II" porting on these heads.
in fact....they have less done to them than i do for my "stage I"(and its reflected in the flow numbers).

Posted By: 5537SG

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/15/04 04:44 PM

I just wanted to say Ive enjoyed this thread and all of the info you guys have provided. I plan on getting my SR's done this winter, as soon as I know what i will have for a new shortblock, I can move forward. Do either of you guys do welding repair on aluminum heads as well? So far all i know is a got some smashed valves and possibly had one piston hit the head, unless the valve slowed it down when the rod broke. I havent disassembled yet out of disgust. thanks again for all the info.

Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/15/04 05:22 PM

fast, I got a PM on another board about who to have port BB Eddy heads. I referred him to you and I hope he gets in contact with you. I told him what a sweet and wonderful guy you are!

Posted By: moper

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/15/04 05:41 PM

The shop I play at does not have a flowbench. We do have a couple accessable, but obviously it's not free. What goes thru the shop is 40% stock rebuilds, 25% mild performance builds, 20% medium performance, local circle track, etc engines, and 15% high budget race engines. The basic "street port" as they refer to it, is $250. It sounds like Dwayne's Stage 1, bowls, throat, and opennings, but no flowbench numbers. They dont waste time porting on a set of heads that has marginal valve work done. So, add $250 for Serdi five angle valve job, plus guides if needed. The all out engines go hourly for porting, due to the cost of flowbench testing, and hand labor. I have SRs out of the box. They came with seats out of round, guides too tight, and large aluminum chips still in the port. I have out of the box eddys, with some of the same issues(no chips tho!!bonus!) The point is, when I see everyone recommending these aftermarket heads, it is very rare to see a mention of paying someone to check them out and correct them . It's always "bolt them on and go". We are constantly trying to balance between $$ and power, and 90% of the time, the $ dictates the result. I would rather have a great set of heads, for $2K, then a slightly above average set for $1200. aluminum or not. There are many guys that can do quality port work, but the higher the ability, the fewer there are that can do it. ( i am not on the level of these guys..lol) Anyway, the owner/customer must take it upon themselves to do the research and validating..Buyer beware. Personally, the "Stage" idea cant be appllied to manufacturers that dont deal in identical product. (906s from hughes, or Dwayne, or Aerohead can be apples to apples; Eddys vs. SRs vs. Bulldogs cannot IMO) Sadly, most buyers go by the manufacturers specs because that's what they have access to.

Posted By: FastOne

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/15/04 10:51 PM

I guess it's a matter of the head porter to be "up front" with the customer & having an informed conversation with the fellow to see what he really needs, instead of taking his money & over spending in areas that won't get the desired results.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 02:15 AM

Quote:

fast, I got a PM on another board about who to have port BB Eddy heads. I referred him to you and I hope he gets in contact with you. I told him what a sweet and wonderful guy you are!

sounds like someones gonna be in for a rude awakening when they call

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 05:00 PM

Guys,

This is a great thread, .. !!!!

After 26 years of porting heads, .. I haven't found and easy answer to this one! I think the key is like you guys pointed out, . it's up the the porting shop to discuss the work with the customer and estimate the project costs from there.

I do feel there's a place for each way to do things. I have "stage" porting prices for basic packages, .. bracket race, street, .. and it's similar to most shops, .. bowls, short turns, gasket match, valve job.

But that is a basic head prep that should be done to ANY cylinder head. The new castings that come out of the box aren't "ready to run" so this work needs to be done.

With my engineering background and pro stock experience most of my work these days is high end custom and design work to go to CnC. All of this work is quoted on a per project basis, .. the only way to do it.

Good thread guys, .. great to see head porters sharing like this.

Curtis

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 05:51 PM

Quote:

i get 45/hr for porting.

for a set of SR's, thats $800.

i figure on about 13.5hrs for the porting portion of this job, which is basically a mild full port job.

and if i read that right....at $80-100/hr you'd get $1360-1700 for fully hand porting those heads.

i haven't done too many of the 440-1's, but it takes me about 22hrs to do them

Fast,

Jeff makes some good points, .. first and most important is the hourly labor rate. $75 to $100 an hour for our expertise is the proper rate. The VALUE of the work you do is much greater then $45 and hour.

I don't know your shop, but once you get into a commercial space, .. or start buying machines equipment, paying advertising, salaries, etc. you HAVE to get $75 an hour or more just to cover overhead. The cost of doing business is important to know for ANY business.

At the rate, .. it's normal for my shop to get, .. say a set of Chebby 15� comp heads, .. $2,300 - $2,500 in porting, ..
Pro stock style heads, .. not uncommon for the total bill, .. castings, valves, etc. to be well over $10K, ..
4 cylinder "kent" 2 valve road race head, .. $2,900 complete, ..

To fully port a bracket race set of heads, .. not "all I can do" pro level stuff, .. but a good basic port job. Bowls, short side, .. correct volume, raise roof, narrow guide boss, chambers, etc.
yes it's often $1,400 to $1,800 depending on the head.
Around 17 to 20 hours of labor.

Now, .. go to Mike Chapman's web site and look at prices for Pro level work, .. his 15� chevy heads are $2200 for the CnC porting only.

High level, good work is expensive because it very time consuming to do.

This leads me to Jeff's comment of $800 stage 2 porting, ..
I don't think that's expensive IF, .. again, IF the level of work done is worth it. At $75 an hour, .. it's takes a little over 10 hours of work to get to that. Not hard to do if porting big block heads, ..

My stage 2 if you want to call it that, ... is bowls, guide bosses, short turn, gasket match, all the good basic work, ..takes about 8-10 hours on a set of big block heads ( aluminum) and it's $800. But, .. this is probably closer to a "stage 3" of most other shops.

I do, .. a basic valve bowl reshape & blend, .. my "stage 1"
( 5 hours of labor)
Then a Full port as listed above, .. my "stage 2"
( 8-11 hours of labor)
Then full race stuff is quoted, .. ..
and EVERYTHING we port if flowed, .

Oh, Jeff, .. do you do outside contract work for CnC ???? I've been looking around
for a CnC shop I can live with, .. Ford 4.6 PI heads, .. SB Chevys, . etc. ???

Curtis

Posted By: BradH

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 07:22 PM

Sorry, can't add any "professional" input on this subject. However, I can throw in a few comments from my own experiences in the hobby...

"Stage <whatever> porting" doesn't mean zip to me anymore for just the reasons stated above. Tell me what you're going to do for the $ and we'll go from there.

No way I'll pay anybody to put a grinder to my heads who doesn't have the ability to flow test their results. Hmmm... guess that's partly why I bought my own flow bench a few years ago.

I've paid for cylinder head work from a number of different shops over the years and seen the work of quite a few others. At this point I'd say from what I've seen (limited as this may be in the grand scheme of things), maybe half of the work done was worth the money charged IMO. It's pretty disappointing to see the results of some "professional's" work, only to have to box the heads up and take them elsewhere to have the same job redone correctly.

It's a big confidence boost knowing I've found a cylinder head shop I trust to work on my stuff, even though I've got to ship my parts out of state to get the job done right. Too bad I haven't found a local shop to do basic block machine work, etc., that I feel the same way about.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 07:59 PM

Quote:

Fast,

Jeff makes some good points, .. first and most important is the hourly labor rate. $75 to $100 an hour for our expertise is the proper rate. The VALUE of the work you do is much greater then $45 and hour.

Curtis

curtis , you're killing us here , my junk isn't worth $75-100 an hour

...

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 10:15 PM

the worth of the work performed is often times limited by what the market will bare.
some shops get close to 300 dollars to bore/hone with a plate, in another part of the country the same job can be had for about 180.00.

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 11:18 PM

Quote:

the worth of the work performed is often times limited by what the market will bare.
some shops get close to 300 dollars to bore/hone with a plate, in another part of the country the same job can be had for about 180.00.

nevermind adding in shipping parts 1000 plus miles

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 11:49 PM

Quote:

the worth of the work performed is often times limited by what the market will bare.
some shops get close to 300 dollars to bore/hone with a plate, in another part of the country the same job can be had for about 180.00.

Yea that's true with jobs like that, .. but on a national level, ..and in the porting world, ..you should be paying for a guy with some engineering background in fluid dynamics, .. dyno experience, .. a good porter isn't a guy who grinds out a hole to make it flow a number on the bench, ..

a good cylinder head guy knows how to build a port with the proper cross section, volume, .. flow curve for the application. That same guy should know the little valve job tricks that make HP on the combo, .. should know proper flow coefficients and how to use them, etc.

If a head guy doesn't know things like the discharge coefficient, velocity profiles, mean gas velocities, runner to cylinder volume, etc. he just can't design good ports.

Good cylinder head guys are engineers, ..

Generally shop rates in the pro cylinder head world, and pro level engine builders are determined on a national market
while smaller shops and smaller porting shops who do regional work are effected more by their local market & economy.

The other thing to consider is cost of doing business.

Let's say porting shop "A" is in Northern Virginia, .. and pays VERY high rent for commercial space, .. has the latest equipment, .. flow bench, wet bench, and spends money on development.
His cost of doing business, rent, machines, electric, salary, etc. may be, say $60 per shop hour.

Local "home" porter "B" has a little shop in his back yard, .. doesn't have the latest equipment, .. and doesn't spend money on development. his cost of doing business may be say $40 per hour.

But, .. whoever you are, .. if you are in business you need to know your cost of doing business.
This plays just as much role in your rates as does any market value.

The bottom line, .. if it's a $800 bracket race port or a $3000 comp port job, .. $75 to $100 an hour for shop labor is very much in the norm, .. and for some cylinder head shops a good deal. You get what you pay for.
This is a normal rate for CnC work, ..

Now, .. I'm not trying to say I'm expensive, .. many pro shops charge more then I do, .. .. but I match the cost to the time involved in the project. I do a TON of $300 touch up work to those disappointing CnC heads on the market, and a fair amount of $800 bracket race full ports, .. .. it's not all gravy. ;-)

Curtis

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/16/04 11:54 PM

Quote:

nevermind adding in shipping parts 1000 plus miles

It's normal for us, .. we won championships in four different countries last year, .. so shipping across the US, .. no big deal, ..shipping to New Zealand , .. once every few weeks, ..

Curtis

Posted By: BradH

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/17/04 03:51 AM

Quote:

...in the porting world, ..you should be paying for a guy with some engineering background in fluid dynamics, .. dyno experience, .. a good porter isn't a guy who grinds out a hole to make it flow a number on the bench, ..

a good cylinder head guy knows how to build a port with the proper cross section, volume, .. flow curve for the application. That same guy should know the little valve job tricks that make HP on the combo, .. should know proper flow coefficients and how to use them, etc.

If a head guy doesn't know things like the discharge coefficient, velocity profiles, mean gas velocities, runner to cylinder volume, etc. he just can't design good ports.

Good cylinder head guys are engineers, ..

Things have sure changed since 'Grumpy' Jenkins used an archaic SF-100 to test his Pro Stock-winning heads in the '70s. Back then even engine builders like him probably weren't too far evolved from the "guy who grinds out a hole to make it flow a number on the bench" description.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/17/04 05:40 AM

Brad,

You may be surprised, .. the "grump" is a fairly smart guy.
I don't know if he uses all the flow ratios and coef stuff, ..
my cuz works there, I'll have to ask.

But yea, things have changed. In the 80's I was offered a job at a few NASCAR teams, .. now if you don't have a degree in engineering they won't talk to you, . no matter what you've done in the past.

Curtis

Posted By: BradH

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/17/04 07:20 PM

Quote:

Brad,

You may be surprised, .. the "grump" is a fairly smart guy.
I don't know if he uses all the flow ratios and coef stuff, ..
my cuz works there, I'll have to ask.

But yea, things have changed. In the 80's I was offered a job at a few NASCAR teams, .. now if you don't have a degree in engineering they won't talk to you, . no matter what you've done in the past.

Curtis

From everything I've heard & read about/from him, I'd say Da Grump's an extremely intelligent individual w/ an exceptional ability to think "out of the box". I'm sure he was back in the '60s & '70s, only things were a lot simpler in terms of what people knew and had to work with at that time.

BTW, what sort of flow bench do you have? You're less than an hour's drive south of me (I'm in Sterling) and would be interested in doing some comparisons between what I've seen on my SF-110 vs. a "higher horsepower" bench to see how much variation there is between results converted from 8"-15" H2O vs. results from a consistent 28".

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/17/04 11:36 PM

Brad,

We are almost neighbors, . I'm in Lorton right now, .. but just sold my house and am moving down to Henrico Ashland area in a few months. Close to Richmond.

Selling the $600K house for a $190K house on 2 acres where I can build a new 40x60 shop. $1800 a month for 1000 sq. ft shop space is just stupid around the DC area, .. so I'm outa here.

I have two flow benches, .. I have a SF110 that I use for small stuff, 4 cylinder road race heads, quick jobs, etc. I also have a custom that flows 900 cfm at 36" h2o for the pro stuff. The big bench is up in Maryland since I don't have room here right now .. moving shop.

Jim Justice at Justice race engines in Frederick has a FlowData that will hit 800 cfm at 28", .. but I don't know
if he has run it lately.

The difference between the two is often less then a cfm if I use the same bore adaptor and intake radius.

The MOST important thing with a sf-110 is all the corrections. You HAVE to do temp & barometric pressure corrections to get accurate cfm numbers.

I use the Performance trends Port flow analyzer software, .. have a flowcom on the bench that feeds info right into the computer, .. and it's dead on. The other advantage to the Port flow software, .. and more important then flow numbers is it does all the flow coefficient math too.

I just had a set of small block chevy 12� comp heads that flowed a peak of 388 cfm @28" I flowed them on the 110 at 7", .. then checked it on the other bench, .. corrected numbers within 1-2 cfm.

You have to remember a flow bench is a test tool, .. you test always with the same machine, .. and can't really compare to other machines. ( although the magazines have blown this CFM flow thing way out of proportion. )

What I would be more concerned about is turbulence in the port. Like a short turn can flow real nice and sound sweet at a 7" vacuum, .. but run it 32" and it turns into a category 5 twister.

Curtis

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 12:00 AM

I just had a thought, .. yea , yea I know, .. it's rare.

While talking about "stage" porting, etc, .. THE MOST important part of this level of modification has not been talked about, ..
the valve job. With limited port work the valve job is the larger portion of what you should be paying for at this stage, ..
so porter dudes, .. what are you doing for valve jobs?

Just the standard 3 or 4 angles, .. custom cutter sets, .. ?????

This is by far the most neglected area. I get these CnC heads in from name companies, .. AFR, Dart, etc, .. don't want to
pick on the CnC porting cause it's often fairly good, .. but the valve jobs often SUCK! A few hours on the seat machine, touch up with a grinder and the heads pick up a bunch, .. other experience ??

Curtis

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 12:20 AM

Quote:

The MOST important thing with a sf-110 is all the corrections. You HAVE to do temp & barometric pressure corrections to get accurate cfm numbers.

barometric corrections on an SF-110???
no mention of that in my owners manual....and based on the operating prinicple of the machine, i dont know why the barometric pressure would have any affect on the readings.

as for the valve job deal.....i'm pretty "bread and butter" in that dept, and i re-do the valve seats more to make sure they are concentric than for any big gains in flow.
i usually do a std 3 angle on the intakes, along with a bowl cut, which gets blended into the bowl.
the exhaust usually gets a two angle/radiused bottom cut.....pretty much like what comes on most aftermerket heads these days.

Posted By: dartman366

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 01:59 AM

wow, this porting stuff really gets pretty intense, really making me rethink my "home" ported "j" heads and wheather they are worth a crap or not, now I have another reason to pull the motor this winter.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 03:40 AM

hey you think thats bad....the 906's on my 383 didn't even get any porting!!!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 03:55 AM

Quote:

barometric corrections on an SF-110???
no mention of that in my owners manual...

as for the valve job deal.....i'm pretty "bread and butter" in that dept, and i re-do the valve seats more to make sure they are concentric than for any big gains in flow.
i usually do a std 3 angle on the intakes, along with a bowl cut, which gets blended into the bowl.
the exhaust usually gets a two angle/radiused bottom cut.....pretty much like what comes on most aftermerket heads these days.

Dwayne,

Yea on the Barometric thing, .. keep an eye on it and track it, ..
try a test with your calibration plate on a 28" day VS a 30" day, .. it makes a difference, well does on my bench. Keep in mind the SF-110 isn't the same design as say the SF-600. The SF-600 nun or this stuff matters much.

You are right in that THE most important correction on the SF-110 is temp for accurate CFM numbers.

Valve jobs, .. The most important thing a head porter needs to work on, .. even before grinding. Performance valve jobs on the intake need at least 4 angles. top, seat, bottom and an angle below the bottom that does or doesn't get blended. Dwayne, your 3 angle with a bowl cut sounds similar to what I do, .. 4 angles if you count the bowl cut.

Several things can be done with the angles on the VJ. Top and bottom angles play a huge roll in the low lift flow curve and plays a roll in the entire flow curve. Every head and every level of porting needs something different.

Think about this, the largest restriction to flow is the curtain area at the valve opening, .. and the efficiency the cylinder sees at that opening has a huge effect on power. By making the, say bottom 60� angle wider you can fatten up the low lift flow, .. or make it very narrow, .. but make your 70� wide and don't blend it into the bowl, .. you can make a fat low lift flow but also make flow over .400" take off.

Same goes for the exhaust, .. top angle, seat and a radius, .. but different radius' will change the flow curve. Low lift flow, big / round radius, .. high lift flow, wider top cut & smaller radius .. ..

Some of the aftermarket heads need a 50 or 52 or 55� seat, .. anyone doing that?

You'll notice if you track the curtain area flow coefficients that the more you open the valve the less efficient the flow is, .. this is where custom seat angles come into play.

Curtis

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 04:04 AM

Quote:

wow, this porting stuff really gets pretty intense, really making me rethink my "home" ported "j" heads and weather they are worth a crap or not, now I have another reason to pull the motor this winter.

Dartman, .. if they work for you that's all that matters, .. if not, there seem to be a TON of competent porters who work for a reasonable rate right here on Moparts. ( Somebody to talk to about porting, .. the wife just doesn't understand, .. and my Mom thinks I'm nuts )

One that comes to mind, .. were is RyanJ ??? is he still hangin around here?

Curtis

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 04:07 AM

Quote:

hey you think thats bad....the 906's on my 383 didn't even get any porting!!!

yea, funny how as porters, the LAST thing that gets ported is our own race cars, ..

Curtis

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 04:22 AM

if i let the bench run long enough for the temps to stabilize, my bench reads 80% exactly with the calibration plate......always(the correction factor for my bench is 1.035).
thats what its read every time ive checked it in the
last 11 years.
winter, summer, humid, dry ..... 80%.
i rarely even bother checking it anymore.

what i did discover however was it matters which way the plate is oriented on the bench.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/18/04 03:23 PM

fast68, ..

interesting, .. so if you do the math with temp corrections to get a CFM number it always comes out the same?
My bench, .. like with themp corrections, . if the intake and discharge temps are different, .. when I do the corrections I get the same CFM, .. and the inclined always reads the same, ..
but if I don't do the temp correction the CFM number is wrong, ..

I tried the same thing with a Baro correction and it had an effect, .. VERY minor but it did seem to have an affect.

Could it be I'm being too anal????

I'm not worried about the final CFM number as much as I'm worried about the curtain area coefficiants.

Curtis

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 12:32 AM

Curtis,
i just do it the way the owners manual says.
wait for about a 25deg spread between thermometers....take a reading....determine the correction factor.
they dont say to use the temp correction for determining the bench correction factor, so i never have.

since the reading has always been 80%, i rarely check the bench anymore.
i mostly check the calibration if ive tested a head and the numbers seem off from what i was expecting.
then i'll stick the orifice plate on to verify the bench isnt doing something "strange".
it's never been a problem with the bench.....it always checks at 80%.

to my way of thinking....the orifice plate just becomes the test piece.....and on my bench anyway, the repeatability for that particular test piece has always been right on the money.
regardless of whether you should use a temp correction for testing the orifice plate or not, the fact is the bench always shows it as 80% flow.
i'm satisfied with that kind of repeatability.

Posted By: dartman366

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 01:09 AM

I guess the reason that I am taking an interest in this post is that there is a local builder that has a superflow 110 (i think) and I would like to get him to do some work for me, but I never knew a fair labor rate and kinda would like to know what improvement or detrement that I made, that being said,I have no idea what stock "J" heads flow, and I know there is no black and white answer to that, just an average, and I have no idea what would be a good flow number, the only other thing that has been done to these are the addition of 2.050 manley nail head chevy valves, and a 4 angle valve job, I guess the thing that I need to do is get some facts together and learn about a flow bench so we can sit down and talk this out and I wont get confused when he lays out some figures and technical jargon, and this forum seems to help me do that,,, and yes, from what I have heard ryanj is the man on the small block stuff, so his input would be well recieved, as well as yours and dwayne's,, thanks guys this is a good post.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 01:22 AM

dartman, the fact is....the only numbers you really need to be concerned with from the flow bench are the corrected flow numbers.

for a mildly ported J head with SBC type valves, tested on a 4" bore adapter....if you're in the 250+ cfm range(corrected flow @ 28"), you're doing pretty well.

most SB Mopar "home port" type work ive tested is usually in the 220's and 230's, although mid-240's is really pretty easy to attain, and doesnt really require much material removal....if you take it out of the right places.

Posted By: dartman366

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 01:37 AM

thanks dwayne, that gives me a ballpark area as to what I need to talk to him about, from what I have heard from several other people that he has done work for, he is very good at what he does and very concious about his work,, from what conversation I have had with him, and what I have read from your posts, you two would get along quite well.

Attached picture 1284758-race car0001.jpg

Posted By: moderncylinder

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 01:55 AM

dwayne, what size bench do you have? just curious.. i have a superflow 600, and im looking to get a 1020 soon. i go along with dwayne on the porting small block stuff, ive done some nhra stocker small block stuff and think they are around 190/150 with a 1.88 and 1.60. ive done s/s stuff that flows 260, 240 at .400 lift that goes fast. with those things, as with alot of things, the low lift numbers mean alot.

jeff

Posted By: BradH

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 02:19 AM

I was never aware of any barmetric correction associated w/ the SF-110, either, although I know of certain benches (e.g. FlowData) that require it. I've never seen any noticeable variations when running a calibration check against the supplied plate, either.

Unlike Dwayne's, my calibration tests don't seem to care which way the plate is oriented. However, I have seen a small (but consistent) difference in calibration factors between tests run at 10" and 8"; I check for both, since those are the most common test pressures I use, and adjust the results accordingly.

As far as factoring in the intake / exhaust temp differential into the final calculation, I've done that... but really haven't seen much added value in taking that extra step. Since the consistency w/ the inclined manometer readings has always been good when retesting known ports, the only thing that the temp differential adjustments seemed to do was lower the final intake #s a few cfm and raise the final exhaust #s a few cfm. I really didn't see any improvement in test-to-test consistency with them...

Posted By: KatFysh

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 02:23 AM

"I guess it's a matter of the head porter to be "up front" with the customer & having an informed conversation with the fellow to see what he really needs"

Exactly.

I'd like to think that I had a little to do with this post. Dwayne and I had quite a talk and MAN, did he ever learn me. This whole post is very "enlighteneing" to the guy {like myself} that doesn't really know much about head flow and porting and such. I, too, appreciate the unbiased comparisons between different porters. It's really helpful to us all... Here's to you guys..

You'll, hopefully, be hearing from me soon,Dwayne...

Posted By: dartman366

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 02:34 AM

blowfish, my feelings exactly, this has been one of the better forum's that has taken place on this board for some time, very enlightening informative and understandable, cheer's and

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 03:31 AM

Jeff,
just a lowly SF-110 here.
the repeatability is excellent, but i dont think it provides a very realistic comparison between heads with vastly different port cross sections, especially the bigger heads.
the lower test pressure, and with that, lower velocity, just isnt able to saturate the bigger heads, so gains that might be made from increases in cross section either dont show up....or hardly show at all.

it seems as though on heads that flow 300ish or less (@ 28") the numbers parallel the numbers from a SF600 pretty closely, but on something like a Dart 360 BBC head or a B1, the numbers just seem to be too low.

yes.....i know i could stand to have a bigger bench.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 05:57 AM

Yea, .. I've enjoyed this thread very much, . . it's nice to have other porters to talk to.

As for all this correction factor stuff. Dwayne makes a good point, .. the normal use of a flow bench, .. to see if you made an improvement, .. just use the inclined meter, .. but on the SF-110 the temp correction does effect the final cfm number.

I've noticed if I work a head it may show the same say 80% but if the temp spread is a little different between the two tests the final cfm number isn't the same. If I'm carefull about the temp spread it's dead on, .. ..

I got into the baro thing cause the Port Flow software & the Flowcom do all these corrections including baro. If you guys done have the software, .. you should try it, .. I've found things I missed because I can now over lay flow graphs & stuff, .. well worth the cash.

Dwayne, .. if Jeff is getting a bigger blower, .. perhaps he'll make you a deal on his SF-600???? I wouldn't mind having it, . .
I have found without a doubt that larger heads need the higher flow rates, .. like you said about the 110 on big stuff.

I've also found short turn problems at 34" that didn't show up at 28"

Wanna borrow my enclosed trailer to go get the bench

Curtis

Posted By: ccdave

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 06:38 AM

Wow some great info on this post!!! All I have to say is anyone who ports heads pro or amateur deserves every dollar charged!! THIS IS NOT EASY WORK!!!Metal chips all over, loud, dirty, and tough on the hands after holding the porting tool for hours at a time. Not to mention all of the measurements done over and over and over!!! Cylinder head porters, this Bud's for you.

Posted By: fast68plymouth

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 03:06 PM

Quote:

Dwayne, .. if Jeff is getting a bigger blower, .. perhaps he'll make you a deal on his SF-600????

as they say....timing is everything.

unfortunately, the plan for me at this point is to try and relocate sometime next spring/summer.
when that happens there will be some other pieces of equipment i will need to buy instead of a newer/larger flow bench.

currently my shop is integrated with another full service shop, so when i move i'll need to buy a few pieces of equipment i wont have access to any longer.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/19/04 04:29 PM

Dwayne,

Ahhh, .. moving sucks, .. I'm going through that now, ..
I have equipment in 3 other shops, spread around till I get moved into new "diggs"

I'm in Northern Va just outside of DC, .. that spells OVERLY expensive. So, .. I'm buying a home on 3+ acres in Ashland just north of Richmond and putting up a 40x60 shop.

Curtis

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/20/04 01:09 AM

Wow what a good thread. Hot rod 101 is the heads. Every one that has anything to do with hot rods finds that out pretty fast but not always the nitty gritty thats devised from. I've looked at several head porters ads lots of times. Wondering what is or is not hype and what really counts.

We are all aware too that the last few horses and foot pounds are what is the most expensive to get. Even then will the car actually be faster?
I'm sure that every one has seen or heard stories about racers who have found out after using some how zuit suit cam or part that a run of the mill part that been around for ever is still actually faster. Your dollars lighter.

Its common knowledge too that people can really get going on over a new part of process only to deciede later on thats its only so so. Now this is showing us what is really going on in the continuing story of head modifications and what we can realistically expect for our cash out lay.

Ultimately a lot of it is going to be the experience with a set of heads with that porter has.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: "Stage II" porting....its not all the same - 11/21/04 05:06 AM

Quote:

Wow what a good thread. Hot rod 101 is the heads. Every one that has anything to do with hot rods finds that out pretty fast but not always the nitty gritty thats devised from. I've looked at several head porters ads lots of times. Wondering what is or is not hype and what really counts.

Ultimately a lot of it is going to be the experience with a set of heads with that porter has.

I hope this stuff has shed some light on the mystic world of head porting

It's tough to go through those head porter ads, .. and as a porter, it's hard to write them without sounding like all the other hype. Brag about records or championships, well ya sound like a bragger, .. .. and God forbid you start to play the CFM numbers game that we all know is only 1/10 of the equation.

So, .. as a consumer, .. If you had to write an ad for my shop, ..
ex IHRA pro stock head porter, .. ex NASCAR, bla, bla ,bla .. now doing custom work, .. how would YOU write that ad????

On your experience comment, . . I kinda agree, and kinda don't.

One thing, most of the porters here seem to understand all the basic stuff, .. how to figure the proper port volume & cross section for an application, .. valve size, .. flow ratios.
With that info a good cylinder head guy can take a velocity map of a port and a calculator and build the proper port, .. even if he's never seen the head before. ( velocity map VERY important here )

The experience comes into play when it's , .. say a comp engine, ..
or a combo that you're trying to get that last 5 hp, .. or get it to 2.+ HP per C.I. then it takes some very advanced engineering skills as well as prior experience with that combo.

Curtis

"Stage II" porting....its not all the same