A engine oil pumps

Posted By: Moparnut426

A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 03:00 PM

I am going to run just a run of the mill Melling HV oil pump in my 408, anyone on here object, and think It needs a better set up. I have had Melling pumps really do good fo rme, and I havent heard anyone on here say they are using anything "special" on their race stuff.

Just kicking stuff around.

Kasey

Posted By: 340Cuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 03:03 PM

What type pan are you running? A HV pump can empty a stock pan in a quarter of a mile.
Bill

Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 03:22 PM

Its a LARGE charlies aluminum pan, It holds 8 quarts I believe.

Kasey

Posted By: dizuster

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 05:26 PM

The problem is there really isn't anything else out there. I know there are the Titan pumps, but they are over $800 the last I checked!!!

Posted By: ademon

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 07:14 PM

My stock pump gives me 30 at idle and 65 hot, i have a HV but it wouldn't fit under the stock style molidon pan.

Attached picture 4938024-DSC00206.JPG

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 07:26 PM

Quote:

My stock pump gives me 30 at idle and 65 hot, i have a HV but it wouldn't fit under the stock style molidon pan.

heck, unless you get the right pump, it wont fit under their 8qt pan either.

You need to get the pump that used philips head screws that are countersunk in the cover and then grind down and edge slightly or it WILL hit the pan.

The pump that uses the hex head screws doesnt fit worth a damn and the screw heads will punch a hole in the pan. damhik

Posted By: B3422W5

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 08:04 PM

A place called precision takes the stock melling pump and blueprints it, and makes some minor mods to it.

I have one and think its a nice piece. They are well under 100 bucks if i remember right

http://www.precisionoilpumps.com/

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 08:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My stock pump gives me 30 at idle and 65 hot, i have a HV but it wouldn't fit under the stock style molidon pan.

heck, unless you get the right pump, it wont fit under their 8qt pan either.

You need to get the pump that used philips head screws that are countersunk in the cover and then grind down and edge slightly or it WILL hit the pan.

The pump that uses the hex head screws doesnt fit worth a damn and the screw heads will punch a hole in the pan. damhik

That's odd.... I build about 25 SB's a year & anything that has an internal pump uses the M72HV with the newer style 7/16" wrenching hex head bolts.... I've never had one hit the pan ever. Granted I could'nt tell you the last time I used a stock pan was though..... But I just did this 408 with the Milodon "Low Profile" pan & even it cleared....that was second one of those I've used.... we do bunch of Milodon 8 QT pans & Moroso 8 QT pans each year also.

I take the pumps apart & drill the outlet out to 1/2" & do a little hand radiusing inside it for little more volume & I usually modify oil pickup tubes as well.

Attached picture 4938170-100_0011.jpg

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 08:32 PM

this was on 2 different 340's. maybe the 360 cap is a different height but I am SURE i punched a hole thru 1 pan 10 years age and learned I needed the countersunk philips then.

then on my 416 build this summer, I had the same problem. I needed to grind the edge of the pump ever so slightly and dent the bottom of the pan.

Attached picture 4938239-100_5917sm.jpg

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 08:38 PM

and heres where it hit the pan. i had to ding it with a hammer slightly

Attached picture 4938265-100_5926sm.jpg

Posted By: Gavin

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 08:53 PM

Quote:

I take the pumps apart & drill the outlet out to 1/2" & do a little hand radiusing inside it for little more volume & I usually modify oil pickup tubes as well.

Ryan, how do you mod the pickup tube? Do you still feed the oil into the 'standard' pump inlet or do you use bottom feed pickups?
I'd like to use a 1/2" pickup but due to my center sump I don't think I'll have clearance for a bottom feed pickup - and I thought 'conventional' wisdom was that the M72HV does not have enough meat to bore out the standard pickup inlet point to 1/2".

Thanks!

Posted By: lenweiler

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 09:37 PM

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 09:54 PM

Gavin, I leave the pump & end of pickup at 3/8" NPT but drill out the end of the pickups to .500" where they are welded to a more solid chunk of threaded round stock to thread into the pump. Takes a whole 30 seconds in the vice with a .500" drill bit do do something Milodon & Moroso should be doing....

aar: it has to be the pans you're using (factory style looks like), I do alot of both 360 & 340 factory blocks a year. It has nothing to do with the block or caps.... I've built every block in existence for the most part, X, R, R1, R1A, R2, R3, 340, 360, TA... never had one hit. All I use is the M72HV.... dunno, maybe you just have really bad luck.

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 09:57 PM

BTW where are you getting the M72HV's with the flat head screws? The only ones I've seen like that were MP units. All the new Mellings I've bought in at least the past 4-5 years use the 7/16 head bolts. I hav'nt bought any MP's in long time. Every once in a while a customer will send one in to use on their engine that's when I see them.

Posted By: dizuster

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 10:32 PM

All of the old pans I've seen were stock pans with the sump made deeper. A stock type pan will definately hit in the area's he's showing, but antyhing that was made off new tooling doesn't seem to have that problem...

Posted By: justinp61

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 10:53 PM

I have Milodon pans on my 340 and one for my 408, both motors have high volume pumps. I've had to work on both pans and pumps to get enough clearence. I busted a 8 quart moroso pan on my 340, the 7/16 hex heads hit. When I fitted the Moroso I used phillips bolts on the two rear bolts and still had to turn them down. I changed the hex bolts on the pump for my 408 also.

Posted By: Leon441

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:02 PM

aarcuda are you inverting pictures or something. The reason I ask your picture of the pump shows it's location on the rear drivers side of the engine. Which is correct. Then you show a pick of your pan with marks all around the rear corner passengers side of the engine. You either inverted your picture or was clearancing for something else.

I ran these pumps for years without any clearancing on many different pans. Now when I ran a 4.125 stroke with alluminum rods I had to space the pump off the cap with a .125" spacer. Then I simply put the pan on with no gasket. Taped on the pan to make clearance so the pan would fit. Then simply reinstall with gaskets. No problem.

Leon

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:03 PM

Quote:

I have Milodon pans on my 340 and one for my 408, both motors have high volume pumps. I've had to work on both pans and pumps to get enough clearence. I busted a 8 quart moroso pan on my 340, the 7/16 hex heads hit. When I fitted the Moroso I used phillips bolts on the two rear bolts and still had to turn them down. I changed the hex bolts on the pump for my 408 also.

Thank you

Ryan had me thinking i was nuts. I punched out a pan 8 years ago with the bolt heads. I was pissed because I knew they were touching the pan when I put it on but since Ive NEVER heard that there was a clearane issue, I figured I was making too much of it. i even came up with the theory that the bolt heads would dent the oil pan based and MAKE ther own room.

So I bolted it and tightened up the blt. then PANG! the head pushed thru.

I brazed it up and used an oil pump like this on.

I actually did try a regular hv melling (with the bolts) on this motor too that I built this summer. I felt it hit the pan and STOPPED. I knew I had to get another pump with the philips screws.

Amazingly and thankfully, my buddy hemityme had an old chrysler NOS one that he gave me...

Posted By: Gavin

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:14 PM

Quote:

Gavin, I leave the pump & end of pickup at 3/8" NPT but drill out the end of the pickups to .500" where they are welded to a more solid chunk of threaded round stock to thread into the pump. Takes a whole 30 seconds in the vice with a .500" drill bit do do something Milodon & Moroso should be doing....

Sorry Ryan, bear with me, I must be a bit slow today

.....you don't touch the 3/8" hole in the pump, but you mention both leaving the end of pickup at 3/8 and also drilling out the end of the pickup to 1/2, and welding the new stock which threads to the (3/8) pump. Could you run that past me again.........thanks!

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:14 PM

Quote:

aarcuda are you inverting pictures or something. The reason I ask your picture of the pump shows it's location on the rear drivers side of the engine. Which is correct. Then you show a pick of your pan with marks all around the rear corner passengers side of the engine. You either inverted your picture or was clearancing for something else.

I ran these pumps for years without any clearancing on many different pans. Now when I ran a 4.125 stroke with alluminum rods I had to space the pump off the cap with a .125" spacer. Then I simply put the pan on with no gasket. Taped on the pan to make clearance so the pan would fit. Then simply reinstall with gaskets. No problem.

Leon

no, its right. that the inside of the pan. turn it upside down and its rig.

i cant figure out why some people have no problems. i know what happened to me- twice

Posted By: justinp61

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:22 PM

Milodon Pan 30940 I think. It also had to be bent out to clear the pick up tube. This pan has been modified to work with Headman 1 7/8" Hustlers.

Attached picture 4938699-IMG_1749.JPG

Posted By: justinp61

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:23 PM

Pump.

Posted By: justinp61

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:24 PM

Pump #2.

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:28 PM

yup, i have the same looking pumps out in my shop right now. if i wasnt watching football, id show the same pics....

you can get away with grinding the heck out of the bolt heads but the philips heads screws make it so much easier.

most people dont build up 340's and build 360's instead. i bet thats the difference

Posted By: justinp61

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:31 PM

I had to do this on my 340 and 360 based 408. The pump and pan in the photos are for the 408.

Posted By: Neil

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:32 PM

I have a Milodon large capacity pan and a milodon HV pump on an LA 360 block and don't recall having an issue with the bolts hitting. I am going to take the windage tray out so maybe I'll test the oil pump to pan clearance with some clay.

I have a hot rod or car craft 408 engine build article somwhere around here and they also said the pan needed to be clearanced.

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Gavin, I leave the pump & end of pickup at 3/8" NPT but drill out the end of the pickups to .500" where they are welded to a more solid chunk of threaded round stock to thread into the pump. Takes a whole 30 seconds in the vice with a .500" drill bit do do something Milodon & Moroso should be doing....

Sorry Ryan, bear with me, I must be a bit slow today .....you don't touch the 3/8" hole in the pump, but you mention both leaving the end of pickup at 3/8 and also drilling out the end of the pickup to 1/2, and welding the new stock which threads to the (3/8) pump. Could you run that past me again.........thanks!

You're making it way too complicated..... take the Milodon or Moroso pickup & just run a .500" drill into the end of it where it threads into the pump. They're like .420" from moroso/milodon. That's it.... there's no wleding or tapping etc. You don't need 1/2" NPT inlet into your pump or pickup. A 3/8" NPT hole is larger than .500".....

I dunno why you guys are having pump/pan issues, obviously something is different between what you're using & what I'm using. Without having ever seen one in my hands that hit I can't really say what the deal is. All I can tell you is I've never had one hit which is odd seeing as how multiple people on here have had clearance issues, dunno.

Posted By: justinp61

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:36 PM

Maybe there are manfacturing differences

. This pan fit like profanity reference deleted, the bolt holes had to be elongated on both sides, it's like the pan is out of square

. If I ever buils another I'll use someone elses pan for sure.

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/10/09 11:45 PM

i agree.

in fact, on this last motor, the oil pan lip and or heightseal at the oil pump/flange end was messed up alsoi. the rubber seal sat up above the pan rail ends by about 1/4" of more. I put the pan on anyways think the installation would press the seal down but it split the seal instead.

Since then, Ive read another post on this site about the same exact thing. that person spoke with milodon about it and got a new pan.

I just modified the rubber seal to shorten it and that seemed to work.

maybe i got a factory defect. i got the pan from mancini

Posted By: kingdust

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 02:02 AM

i never had oil pump to pan clearance issues, ive built more than a few 340s ( not as much as ryan)but i did have a milodon pan that the bolt holes were'nt even close to lining up! sent it back to jegs and they sent me another one and that one worked. nothings ever perfect.

Posted By: 68Fastback

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 02:50 AM

I did this a few times at Ryan's suggestion. Picture courtesy of Shady Dell.

Quote:

Quote:

Gavin, I leave the pump & end of pickup at 3/8" NPT but drill out the end of the pickups to .500" where they are welded to a more solid chunk of threaded round stock to thread into the pump. Takes a whole 30 seconds in the vice with a .500" drill bit do do something Milodon & Moroso should be doing....

Sorry Ryan, bear with me, I must be a bit slow today .....you don't touch the 3/8" hole in the pump, but you mention both leaving the end of pickup at 3/8 and also drilling out the end of the pickup to 1/2, and welding the new stock which threads to the (3/8) pump. Could you run that past me again.........thanks!

Posted By: 77DragracerR/T

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 01:40 PM

I run one of the old MP HV oil pumps and the installation sheet was still in the box and it mentions filing the the edge of the plate for clearance on some pans.I filed mine before i installed it,then checked the clearance and it was fine.I run a Milodon low proflie 8qt pan on my 408

Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 02:08 PM

Destined for the tech archive

Posted By: Gavin

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 02:21 PM

Thanks Ryan, gotcha

Posted By: 69Cuda340S

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 03:06 PM

I run a Mellings HV pump with a 6 quart Kevko oil pan and didn't have any clearance issues. It doesn't hit even when I mocked it up with no oil pan gasket.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 03:39 PM

I use the Melling HV pump on my 340 builds and
stock pans that I deepen to 8 qts and never had
the pan hit without a gasket

Posted By: formula S

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 04:07 PM

Quote:

Pump #2.

I built a 360 over the summer and used a m72hv, and a stock pan that I got from mancini. No problems with fit, with that said the pump cover was cast differently, the screw pads on the pump cover were recessed. As far as oil pump and pickup modification on race engines, I disassemble the pump, drill the pickup out to 3/4", port and blend both suction and discharge sides of the pump. Then I use 3/4" O/D x.090 tubing to fab a pickup, then slide the pickup into the pump at least an inch, and braze it together this work really well.

Posted By: dizuster

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 04:14 PM

Yeah I guess it does seem kind of stupid to drill the block to 9/16" main passages to the oil filter, when the pickup is only 1/2"...

Posted By: 69Cuda340S

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 08:16 PM

Quote:

the pump cover was cast differently, the screw pads on the pump cover were recessed.

Here is what the top of my Mellings HV pump looks like. Bought last summer:

Attached picture 4940666-OilPumpOnCap2.JPG

Posted By: aarcuda

Re: A engine oil pumps - 01/11/09 08:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the pump cover was cast differently, the screw pads on the pump cover were recessed.

Here is what the top of my Mellings HV pump looks like. Bought last summer:

ahaa!! Those bolts are countersunk A LOT. thats why some people arent having troubles with their (I bet).

The oil pump that caused me problems had a completely flat plate and that caused the hex heads to sit lower in the motor. I bet i wouldnt have had much (if any) problem with the pump in that picture. the one i had most trouble with look like :