Moparts
"Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR
Posted By: CJK440
"Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 03:53 PM
Some guys expressed interest in following along with other racer's engine builds so I figured I would document what I am building for '09.
A 444 cube stock appearing small block......
Click the link........
http://supercarraces.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=271&p=1886#p1886I'm going to start bolting it together tonight and will keep adding to it.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/11/09 05:26 PM
Personally, I would like to see it, but the price is always the issue with the small block mopars. I have been wanting one for a very long time, but mopar doesn't support the small block guys.
You can shoot me, but for some time now, you can buy a 454 Cheepie small block crate motor that's 600hp on pump gas. Even comes with a dominator. How do you get one of those in a mopar for only $13k? Its gonna run you over $20k, and that's the reason so many build a big block instead. To get a 600hp pump gas mopar, it has to be a $20k small block or a mild big block, not much in between. Heck you still can't get a 4500 flanged intake for a small block mopar, you have to weld it and mill it yourself!
http://www.worldcastings.com/prods_pages/101011.htmhttp://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=700+115+310209&D=310209I like the build you have going in the link, what did the crank run you?
Also, my very mild 340 Cuda ran 12.0's all day at 112-114mph. I was surprised your 408 only went 11.90's, but maybe there's something I missed in your time slip.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/11/09 05:56 PM
Quote:
Also, my very mild 340 Cuda ran 12.0's all day at 112-114mph. I was surprised your 408 only went 11.90's, but maybe there's something I missed in your time slip.
This is a Stock Appearing car running in F.A.S.T./Supercar Shootout with correct casting heads, intake and exhaust manifolds on polyglas tires.
No dominators, just a T-quad...
Posted By: sharpie
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/11/09 06:21 PM
I would think that you had a serious traction issue, being that you ran that time with that MPH.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/11/09 06:37 PM
Just add more trunk ballest and it will hook fine, should be a BA combo
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 06:38 PM
only problem w/ that is you are still stuck w/ SB heads, intake/carb and those ex manis. The only decent intake carb combo would be a 6-pack set-up so then you are stuck running a HEAVY butt E-body. So I don't see it keeping up w/ any BB FAST car.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 06:47 PM
There are already mid 11 second FAST small block single 4 cars out there, and that's faster than a good number of big blocks currently running.
Doesn't matter anyway, it's not like a small block guy is out to try and take down big blocks & Hemis in FAST, it's about seeing what you can do to make a stock appearing combo (any combo) look stock and run as fast as possible.
Posted By: F1Scamp
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 07:03 PM
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There are already mid 11 second FAST small block single 4 cars out there, and that's faster than a good number of big blocks currently running.
Doesn't matter anyway, it's not like a small block guy is out to try and take down big blocks & Hemis in FAST, it's about seeing what you can do to make a stock appearing combo (any combo) look stock and run as fast as possible.
Exacatly. It's all in fun, to see what you can get your car to run. Good people, Good times.
Posted By: migsBIG
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 07:16 PM
Impressive, makes me want to build one too, except that I'm a cheapo like most folks on here. Still, makes you wonder what that engine would do in a 2700lb 63-66 a-body?
Posted By: Wile1coyote
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 07:36 PM
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There are already mid 11 second FAST small block single 4 cars out there, and that's faster than a good number of big blocks currently running.
Doesn't matter anyway, it's not like a small block guy is out to try and take down big blocks & Hemis in FAST, it's about seeing what you can do to make a stock appearing combo (any combo) look stock and run as fast as possible.
Exacatly. It's all in fun, to see what you can get your car to run. Good people, Good times.
Agreed, I will run a small block in F.A.S.T. and I am never ever going to win, it's ok just being there makes it worth the effort. What a lot of people do not realize is that the ONLY person you are ever really competing against on the strip is yourself.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 07:48 PM
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Still, makes you wonder what that engine would do in a 2700lb 63-66 a-body?
At the end of last season my Duster scaled at 2950 without me @ Atco.
Posted By: redraptor
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 10:39 PM
That's sweet! It's surprising how well the Mopars do in F.A.S.T. Love it. Can't believe how many poeple think that headers and big cam equals instant power. I've beat a few in my day but that class has taken it further.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 11:04 PM
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Still, makes you wonder what that engine would do in a 2700lb 63-66 a-body?
At the end of last season my Duster scaled at 2950 without me @ Atco.
that's what I'd put it in...what early valiants came w/ 273 super commando's?
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 11:09 PM
The problem with pre 1971 small block cars is the carb and intake, the AVS and intake combo limits the fuel too much. The TQ is the saving grace of a 71 and later small block, not a half bad intake design either.
Posted By: Dave Watt
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/11/09 11:32 PM
CJK440, your link isn't working. I'd like to see the engine build.
Does your aircleaner have the vacuum flap on the bottom? I have one of those without the flap, my 340 Duster wouldn't run with it on my Thermoquad. It ran great with the lid flipped over though.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 02:06 AM
Yeah, mine has the semi-circular cutout on the rearmost section. Of course it is permanently open.
Posted By: Dave Watt
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 03:15 AM
Chris, thanks for letting us peek inside that "little" small block.
Can't wait to see the rest of the progress.
Posted By: 9 Sec Phill
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 03:57 AM
Quote:
There are already mid 11 second FAST small block single 4 cars out there, and that's faster than a good number of big blocks currently running.
Doesn't matter anyway, it's not like a small block guy is out to try and take down big blocks & Hemis in FAST, it's about seeing what you can do to make a stock appearing combo (any combo) look stock and run as fast as possible.
Why couldnt you run a Mr. Norms car in this class, one of his supercharged cars or say a demon with a 6 pack?
Posted By: 70Cuda383
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 06:50 AM
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What a lot of people do not realize is that the ONLY person you are ever really competing against on the strip is yourself.
Yea, but you get to compete against yourself a lot more, if you're better/faster than the guy next to you! 
Posted By: plumebody
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 09:37 AM
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There are already mid 11 second FAST small block single 4 cars out there, and that's faster than a good number of big blocks currently running.
Doesn't matter anyway, it's not like a small block guy is out to try and take down big blocks & Hemis in FAST, it's about seeing what you can do to make a stock appearing combo (any combo) look stock and run as fast as possible.
Why couldnt you run a Mr. Norms car in this class, one of his supercharged cars or say a demon with a 6 pack?
Maybe because they weren't "production" cars. They were considered a dealer add on. 
Posted By: CJK440
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 11:45 AM
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Maybe because they weren't "production" cars. They were considered a dealer add on.
Exactly.
Got the rotating assembly in and crank scrapers installed last night. 
I'm going to do the cam tonight but I'll be posting about the heads today.
Posted By: patrick
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 11:55 AM
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Maybe because they weren't "production" cars. They were considered a dealer add on.
Exactly.
Got the rotating assembly in and crank scrapers installed last night. I'm going to do the cam tonight but I'll be posting about the heads today.
but if it were a factory option, it would be OK? hmm.....how 'bout a '63 studebaker lark with a supercharged 289 R3?
Posted By: DaveDudek
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 12:44 PM
Very nice Chris, i can read stuff like that build all day long. Better hurry up the season is coming soon. What`s you goal for the year? (with good air and good track)
Posted By: CJK440
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 06:22 PM
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but if it were a factory option, it would be OK? hmm.....how 'bout a '63 studebaker lark with a supercharged 289 R3?
I think there is one in the works right now.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 06:23 PM
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Very nice Chris, i can read stuff like that build all day long. Better hurry up the season is coming soon. What`s you goal for the year? (with good air and good track)
I have to get it track ready for April 4th @ E-town which will probably be more of a shakedown/test and tune for me. Doubt I'll get to the track earlier.
I'd like to go faster than 11.50's
I hope to install it this weekend.
Posted By: Wile1coyote
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 03/12/09 06:47 PM
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but if it were a factory option, it would be OK? hmm.....how 'bout a '63 studebaker lark with a supercharged 289 R3?
I think there is one in the works right now.
I'm pretty sure there is one in Pure Stock PSMCDR. There are several Studes that regualrly compete there. Would make a good platform for FAST 4 sure.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/13/09 11:58 AM
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I like the build you have going in the link, what did the crank run you?
Honestly I don't remember the exact $ wasn't cheap but its a nice piece. I got it thru Dram.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/21/09 04:44 PM
Update.
I got a quite a bit more done and plan to drop the sucker in today and fire it tomorrow.
I'm going thru more than just the engine details too.
Posted By: HealthServices
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/21/09 04:58 PM
Looks like a sweet build!
Posted By: RUNCHARGER
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/21/09 05:22 PM
I really like this stuff as well. I love the stock look of a factory musclecar but not 15 second performance. This stuff is great.
Sheldon
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/21/09 08:29 PM
Back when I was involved with FAST as the Tech Director I had a 72 Duster that I was planning a 433" (4.1 x 4.1) 340 TQ/904 that I thought had the capabilities to go inthe 10's (this was about a year before Wayne hit Stride with the Vette (the next year in fact) and I think I was trying to convince Dave into switching to an Auto).
I thought with enough port work to the intake and the Head (I've worked plenty of X's and J's) an A body could dip into the 10's with the right air. the issue for me was with more stroke and a few FAST legal traction tricks it could work provided we could overcome the small 14" E-70 footprint of the FAST legal tire. I knew a hidden stutter box could kill the low end until we got rolling but keeping the tire planted while big torque rolled in was always the quandry. Plus the fact that at the time I was the Tech guy so I had to put my plans on the shelf and remain unbiased.
I thought a 433" motor with a 6.25" rod, a 2.055 or 5/16 stem 2.08 intake and a moon pie slug would be the best way to squeeze the last bit of power up top where the wedge head would have a hard time keeping up with the hemis and canted valve motors.
The cam is tricky,
you gotta ET by maximizing the torque in the middle 'cause you can't use it all off the line and your big end is limited by the intake and the shorty-short rod ratio will start to lay off the cylinder pressure at high piston speeds.
I've been following you and your car very closely, I believe we met before you went to the 416
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/21/09 10:58 PM
I think we met a while back in Columbus before I was building a car. I had a Curious Yellow 71 cuda at the time.
I contemplated a few rides, one being an A12 car and the other an off brand, and of course a 71-72 Duster. This car was my buddies and I bought it off of him.
I think its the most competitive small block mopar.
Posted By: 69Cuda340S
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/22/09 02:38 AM
Cool write up on that engine build. You going to have it at Carlisle again this year?
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/22/09 02:30 PM
Quote:
Cool write up on that engine build. You going to have it at Carlisle again this year?
Yup, more than once too.
The Supercar series teamed with Carlisle to have all makes race and display at all three Ford, GM and Mopar events. So the plan is to be at all three with the Duster.
Last year the small blocks really shined on the 1/8th mile track.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/23/09 01:19 PM
I love this stuff. It might be the closest thing to old time drag racing there is left. Just wish i was rich enough to play. FAST is not a poor man's game...
Posted By: Dave Watt
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/23/09 04:55 PM
Great work Chris, thanks for sharing your speed secrets. Most of the time we would never know the details under the carburetor.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/25/09 05:53 PM
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Just wish i was rich enough to play. FAST is not a poor man's game...
To win the whole shebang? Yeah. But since a dead stock car or clone is legal you can still have fun without spending too much money.
It depends how you go about it and what you want to get out of it.
Posted By: 69B3GT
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/26/09 12:54 AM
I was always interested in FAST but now this post is something i look forward to everyday haha....i need more info and pics on the duster. Looks like a really beautiful car, nice work.
Posted By: Streetwize
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/26/09 01:57 AM
Yeah, i remember the Cuda
I'm not sure how big you can hog the manifold to but there'sa LOT of POWER there if you can get it fed properly.
I'd be interested in the Cam Dwayne picked...we're almost 'telapathic' in our selections most of the time...
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/26/09 07:12 AM
Yea, I was told when my 340 stroker got dyno'd (426 cubes) that the intake manifold was at the head of the line in terms of choking the engine of air it needed to make more power and take full advantage of all the extra cubes, followed closely by the exhaust manifolds and the hyd. cam I chose to run.
Hogging out a cast iron TQ intake is no walk in the park! I guess if you did some hand porting, and had it extrude honed to the max you might get the best flow/volume one could expect short of sawing one into pieces, porting it to death, then welding it all back together.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/26/09 01:18 PM
I took the car for a ride last night and it really caught me off guard. Night and day over the 408. I'm looking forward to making some passes next Saturday.
When I drove the car with this motor and the 4 speed the throttle was like an on/off burnout switch. With the auto it definately will help hook the car up.
As for the manifold, I did some hand porting & gasket matching but its tough to get in there.
I do have a second manifold that I mounted in a bridgeport and milled away all the runners underneath. The idea is to fabricate a steel single plane runner system on the lower level of the dual plan and braze it in place and contour with epoxy. Granted, its less than ideal and with no testing equipment other than track time after the swap its really shooting from the hip but think I can eliminate some 90 degree bends in the stock dual plane and definately remove some pig iron weight too.
Posted By: HPMike
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/26/09 10:38 PM
Chris:
Juat curious, what were the sonic test numbers on your block??
MB
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/27/09 01:46 PM
Thats a good question Mike and brings up a sore subject. The shop that originally did the block work checked it and cleared it for a .040" overbore, I thought .040" was safe but they said they would make sure. However just short of completion I ended up hastily pulled the block out and sent it to another shop due to some "disagreements" and never got the actual numbers.
I had a couple of snags when I was first building this thing 3 years ago. Hindsight is 20/20.
Posted By: HPMike
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/27/09 02:37 PM
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Thats a good question Mike and brings up a sore subject. The shop that originally did the block work checked it and cleared it for a .040" overbore, I thought .040" was safe but they said they would make sure. However just short of completion I ended up hastily pulled the block out and sent it to another shop due to some "disagreements" and never got the actual numbers.
I had a couple of snags when I was first building this thing 3 years ago. Hindsight is 20/20.
Keep up the good work.. With the featherlight weight of that car, it might get interesting.
MB
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/27/09 05:38 PM
We'll see in a week.
I have a feeling I am going to get a rude awakening in the form of chassis setup as I never had enough power to require chassis tweaks. Previously I'd launch off idle and floor it WOT all the way down the track, got me in the 11's. But I think I'll have to roll onto the throttle and hope 1-2 doesn't hit too hard.
I'm going to bring along some ballast just in case but quite honestly I'm going to be looking for mph on Saturday and work on ET in the future.
Posted By: 69Cuda340S
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/28/09 12:10 AM
I have no idea how you will get that car to hook with all that torque. Especially in a light car like that I would think it is just going want to spin.
Posted By: HPMike
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/28/09 12:53 AM
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I have no idea how you will get that car to hook with all that torque. Especially in a light car like that I would think it is just going want to spin.
While it does take some practice and a friendly track, they actually hook a bit better than you think. G70 bias ply FAST car.
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Posted By: FuryUs
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/28/09 01:26 AM
Quote:
I took the car for a ride last night and it really caught me off guard. Night and day over the 408. I'm looking forward to making some passes next Saturday.
When I drove the car with this motor and the 4 speed the throttle was like an on/off burnout switch. With the auto it definately will help hook the car up.
As for the manifold, I did some hand porting & gasket matching but its tough to get in there.
I do have a second manifold that I mounted in a bridgeport and milled away all the runners underneath. The idea is to fabricate a steel single plane runner system on the lower level of the dual plan and braze it in place and contour with epoxy. Granted, its less than ideal and with no testing equipment other than track time after the swap its really shooting from the hip but think I can eliminate some 90 degree bends in the stock dual plane and definately remove some pig iron weight too.
Any chance you'll share pics of this manifold with the bottom milled out?
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 03/28/09 10:29 AM
Sure, when I get to it I will, but its more of a long term project right now. Bigger fish to fry at the moment.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 04/05/09 01:45 AM
UPDATE:
Ran the sucker at E-town today. It was 1/8th only but still a good event to get used to launching with the extra cubes.
I went to the track with the Thermoquad unchanged from the pumpgas 408 and with the timing backed down to be safe.
First pass of the day blew the tires off and ran a "meh" 7.78 @ 94mph.
It took a few passes to get used to the extra power off the line and to make a few timing adjustments but whittled the ET down and qualified 3rd out of 14 cars with a 7.56.
I ended up moving thru the quick 8, winning my first race and a much faster car red lit in the semi's and I ultimately lost to Ed Cook.
Best pass of the day.... 7.42 @ 96.17.
Looks like a 7.42 is equivalent to an 11.60 or so in the 1/4. Not too shabby for the first time out with no dyno tuning.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 04/05/09 01:59 AM
Nnnn-Ice!
Did you try any ballast? If so did you notice any advantage?
Posted By: 69Cuda340S
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 04/05/09 09:27 PM
Good numbers there. Should pick up some more with break in and some tuning.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 04/06/09 12:40 PM
No ballast other than the spare in the trunk. I put 3.73 gears in it over the winter and wished I still had the 4.10's for the 1/8th.
I'm really excited to see how it does on a full pass.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 04/06/09 04:39 PM
I just noticed that you are selling the car (in the Moparts A-body FS ads). Bummer! I was hoping to see you ring out the combo a bit more to see it's full potential.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 04/06/09 05:32 PM
Scott, I'm interested in selling it, it's not sold.
I still plan to see how fast it will go until somebody steps up and takes it.
Posted By: dannysbee
Re: Building a "bigger than a big block small block" - 04/06/09 09:17 PM
The first half of the track is where the tires are hurting your ET. The back half should be a little better.
Posted By: sharpie
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 04/07/09 04:13 PM
Chris, I like the shifter linkage you made, it looks oddly familiar
This one's for floor shift though.
I definitely bookmarked that thread on the Supercar forum. It gives me a kick in the behind to get my 5.9 into my Demon! Great job there.
Posted By: CJK440
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 04/08/09 12:26 AM
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Chris, I like the shifter linkage you made, it looks oddly familiar This one's for floor shift though.
When I started racing this car I put a 4 speed in it. I made all the shift rods out of 1/2 steel rod with ball joints like that on both ends of all three. No slop!!
Posted By: CJK440
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 04/26/09 12:08 PM
Well the build paid off and it ran the number I originally built it to run.
I clicked off an 11.49 @ 118mph.
Posted By: 69Cuda340S
Re: "Bigger than a big block small block" F.A.S.T./SUPERCAR - 05/01/09 01:53 AM
Congrats on that time! Those are great numbers for a small block FAST car.