70 Hemi Cuda - F8 4spd - BaT - BS23R0B412027

Real nice car, would love to own it, but I question the VIN stamp on the engine as being authentic, compared to what I think is the original stamping on the transmission.
The '1' seems different for one. Also is the block date of December 69 in the correct 'build window' for a July built car? I'll let the experts weigh in.

BAT CUDA


Edited to show VIN .
Also VIN as show on BaT BS23ROB412027

Extremely nice. I would expect it reach $180k, maybe more.

Looks to me like they didn't get a clear stamp on the engine pad and re-did the last six digits with body number stamps

Re-stamped engine on BS23R0B412027 so the report is a hypocritical joke & was a waste of money, but it does offer some insight about the person that made it.

The engines and transmissions were both stamped right before going into the car with the same stamp set, so every font detail should match perfectly on a REAL matching numbers engine and transmission.

Would you pay up that much for a restamped block? Not me!

Did you read my post? Did you notice I responded before Barry stated it’s a restamp? I would still expect it to fetch serious money.

I thought Dave wise was suppose to look for stamping in a gang as part of his numbers matching call??? Hmm.

Agree .
Edited title to show actual VIN.
BaT VIN shows a 'O' instead of an '0'

BaT is filtering all comments about this car. I tried to post a simple post telling potential bidders to do their homework....they will not post the comment. Go ahead and try to post a comment. BaT has gone from something that used to be for the everyday guy to nothing but a money grab for the folks that own the organization. They will not post anything that might possibly detract from elevating the bids. Try to post something, even if very simple.

Ebay used to have comments/inquires too.

IMHO, either have comments or not.

Filtering them for only the positive comments just gives false perception to buyers. Like everyone had their chance to put their two cents in; but really didn't.

Nothing I said was negative. I commented that it was a nice looking car. I just encouraged people to do their homework....whacked.

I didn't think it was mean or disparaging. But just a hint to check things out... And they whacked it !! Geez.

Hey, can't have the truth interfering with the income stream...

Well hopefully, as this is a big ticket item vehicle , someone does their homework ( or has someone knowledgeable do their due diligence for them).

Well there is no such thing as an "O" in the Chrysler stamp sets, only a "0"...

I'd rather have a mis-stamped, no stamp block, and have a broadcast sheet and a #s matching fourspeed trans, than a original block car with no BS and an automatic.

As would I. Which brings up the question…if you were buying a 70 hemicuda 4 speed…how much more would you pay for original numbers matching motor car vs NOM?

I’ve owned 440 Cudas for over 30 years…could never justify the premium for a numbers car.

The engine is in the VIN. Nothing else is, which is why #s matching trans and a buildsheet are gold.

your photos are not very good

Yeah I read your post. My question still stands, as it did THE FIRST TIME... would YOU, buy that car with a restamped engine block for your estimated price of $180k. If someone coughs up "serious money"... without doing due diligence, then they deserve to get bent over.

Current bid $177,500. The market dictates value.

There are lots of people with too much money that will never investigate anything. Just watch a Mecum or Barrett-Jackson auction. Lots of guys with alcohol and egos larger than life with too much money. I really have grown to detest BaT for what they have turned into.

What I would like to know, is who is this jack A$$ Top_Shelf_cars ?

He states "body, engine, and transmission stampings were made with a Gang stamp made up of individual digits and numbers" just as described in this thread.

But then tries to rationalize why the block stamping looks like it was done by a drunken 3-year-old, in the wrong font.

Who is this A$$ hat trying to protect?

Is he an old block stamper from way back trying to legitimize his handiwork?

It makes me really question anything from Govier or Wise or any other know it all.

I apologize in advance for any offence that may be taken.

It makes me really question anything from Govier or Wise or any other know it all.

Yea pretty funny isnt it? We see how the experts in many fields are doing these days but yet folks cant shake them dam rose colored mopar glasses off there head. Remember its not the corvette guy or the ford guy selling a mopar part at a swap meet causing most issues in the hobby..... its internal. Has been for a long time.

Well, what a highly-coveted car is worth, and what someone will pay, are often enough 2 different things, right ?
And the more money and rarer car that's involved will bring out the fudging, if not outright falsification.
Lots of Hemis were damaged or destroyed, just like Chevy Rat motors or FI small-blocks, and some Chevy guys have been re-stamping blocks for decades.
Hemi cars were inevitably going to catch up on that.
Big Money eventually brings this into pretty much everything.
I've heard Steve Davis at a B-J auction 1st-hand tell a nationwide audience that a particular Hemi car was #-s matching, when I know every inch of that car and it is definitely not.
He claimed their "expert" issued that report after vetting the car.
What's odd is that even though my name & info is in the car's file, nobody has ever contacted me about the car.
Whether that paperwork was removed, or nobody cares, or they don't want to verify, or have their bubble burst, I don't know.
Seems that some folks will pay up for bragging rights, knowing that nobody at the car show is gonna slide under the car and check #s.
While a non-#s engine relieves some worry about breakage, to me, the intent to deceive is discomforting (at the least), and can be indicative of larger issues or falsification.

Right here fellow enthusiast.
No need to call names.
Owned enough of these cars and advised enough people regarding them, that I have no need to justify my words to you.

Considering the current state of everything..... who would expect this be anything close to "normal"?

If anybody wants to see a gang stamp, here you go. Compare that to the individual stamps it took to create some other blocks and decide for yourself which was done on a production line. I worked at an auto plant, the idea guys were fooling around that long on a simple task, on multiple cars, seems pretty out there to me. You’re talking one hit versus multiple. Picking up each digit along the way.

I always thought door stickers were done perfectly on a machine until this one.

A online sales add, nothing special but the odd door tag has stuck in my head for years. One would think it would be hard to mess this up.

Thanks for replying Rick. Respectfully, can you explain how the font changed from when the transmission got stamped to when the engine got stamped?
From my understanding, they get stamped at the same time. In addition, the spacing is not the same, you'd at least expect similar spacing if the '1' die was replaced with another looking more like a capial 'I' with the bars across the top and bottom.
In addition, what is your opinion on the date code of the block being Dec 69 and the SPD in July. Historically, aren't the build date and the engine dates closer together? Typically a month or so?

Thank you

You are exactly right, and I apologize.
I was typing angry, and I should not have done that.

As far as casting dates, a lot of '68 Hemi cars got blocks that were cast in '66.
Hemi blocks appear to have been cast in "runs", and banked for future assembly.
Possibly banked again for later installation, but I don't know about that - or for how long - with certainty.
That 1 sure looks like an I to me too, with its upper serif; an odd mistake to make, by whoever did it, but certainly suspicious.

My comments pertained to the perception that a VIN stamping must be perfect or identical to authentic components.
My comments on this car in no way suggested either way on this car’s stampings as to do so in a Public forum could have its consequences. As could comments suggesting some form of deception or fraud when all that person has observed is a scan of multiple scans of a photo. Some keyboard jockeys have no idea who is an owner or who is behind a car and their disposition or eagerness to challenge what has been said publicly. On a whim, they could outspend any of us in court just for the fun of it. When it comes down to it who of us could testify with 100% certainty that it was intended fraud. None of us were there the day the stampings were made.

If you read a Dave Wise report you will find a disclaimer that explains the reasoning for not claiming ‘absolutes’. It is a serious Liability issue.

I have seen this car first hand, many years ago, and at that time suggested the car was not a ‘survivor’ by any stretch. Very few of these Cudas survived completely intact and 100% original. Games are played these days enhancing ‘survivor’ cars with better used original parts. Should this be acceptable? It happens all the time.

On the whole, this Cuda is an extremely good Hemi Cuda. I have no issue with the casting and assembly dates as nothing was cast in stone on how the components we sequenced . As far as stamping being identical, what happened if a component failed prior to shipping? Was the line held up while an engine or transmission was replaced? Not likely. That vehicle would be set aside and dealt with. Would the factory ensure the stamping of the new component was identical?

Taking into account the unibody, documentation, factory options and Hemi Cuda 4 speed car, this Cuda is one I would certainly support purchasing for more than the number suggested by others here. If you need a reference for pricing please refer to the FJ5 Hemi Cuda sold at Mecum Glendale 2023. A poorly restored, unfinished, column automatic converted 1970 Cuda.

Many here may not appreciate where the Market has gone in the last few years, me included. But to think in a Market that good 1971 340 Cudas are selling at $130,000 and well above, that a real 1970 Hemi 4 speed Cuda will sell below $200,000 does not seem accurate to me.

No worries. I have a very thick skin.

I believe Dave Wise has provided stamping examples to the seller which he has posted on the BAT auction.
Those photos clearly illustrate that tge stamping process was far from an exact science..

Maybe we should all start off posts with a disclaimer of some sort.

Had hoped to see a comprehensive reply to the poster who asked the question that we all could of learned from VS a veiled litigation threat to someone or all who might be critical of car and voices an objective opinion and what reads as more smoke and mirrors.

Safe to say all brands of the so called car hobby is jacked up in many areas and THIS is why barn find type cars with great factory stampings and tags and docs might seem high to many but there is a premium on clear cut legitimacy and well worth it.

Most know BAT has been called out several times for there antics and they have let some faulty cars run through. Like many others. So the venue is not the best in many folks eyes.

Gotta love it all....

Thanks for your comprehensive reply Rick.
The reason I created this post was for one, it's a really nice Hemi Cuda, and thought the forum would enjoy seeing it.
Secondly, I wanted the opinion of those members I know are experienced in all things Mopar, from what should a Hemi car have, from body to VINs , these folks are a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate their input and feedback.

It was not my intent to disparage the car, only to provide a discussion in a forum ( that's part of what this site is about , is it not?).

Regardless, of who buys the car, in the end it's a very nice example of a 70 Hemi Cuda, and hoping the new owner is an enthusiast and will drive the car, and not let it sit, only hoping for future appreciation.

Taking a step back from the numbers and along the lines of education, this appears to be a correct restoration. I know there were some early body colored shakers (mostly or all red?) and then they went to argent silver. Were there any black shakers on non-black cars like this one has?? Was it a late build thing before going black in 1971?

If the car had a fake stamp, wouldn't you think the stamper would ensure it be perfectly aligned?

Who'd go through all the trouble of faking a stamp and make it as if a Parkinson's patient applied it?

I think probably after the trans stamp (hah!), the cage holding the stamp dies got wonky and the assembly line guy didn't care. Had to just get it out asap!


Again, a buildsheet and #s matching trans is a HUGE PLUS!

maybe the restamper thought he could get away with the same story.

Great question. Would like to hear from any members who have any first hand assembly line experience.
But I guess it makes sense they would have the black bubbles ready for production in August for 71 models.

OK let's go with the story that the cage stamp got wonky after hitting it on the transmission, then how did the "1" become an "I" on the engine stamp or am I seeing that wrong???
Also someone mentioned above that the car wasn't quite a "survivor" before the restoration, do you have any pictures to show what it was????
I still think the driver door and passenger door differences need better addressing??? No???

Ya, I think you're right.

That "1" sure doesn't look like a factory stamp. Ditto the "7", although the one above it looks like a correct "7."

Comparison w/the Hemi SuperBee on BAT right now (bottom pic):

IMHO, the original stamp is the one above it barely showing the last few digits.

Then, maybe in the 80s, someone decided to stamp it to "correct" the factory "mistake."

In regard to the above statement on the 1 looking like an I and the 7 I’m going to post a 71 hemi super bee block for reference with that same font. Also there are several cases where the factory hand stamped the vin on a block, and the gang stamp was not used I assume not to stall production when an issue came up. When you get into studying vin stamping several things make a difference, such as assembly plant, time frame of the build, ext. I have even seen some vins be stamp totally above the machine surface, into the raw casting area.
Matt

The comments on the Bat site State Dave Wise addressed this and states it’s a legit stamp. I worked on a Kenworth line for a few years and there were certainly times when SOP was deviated.

The I for 1 deal in that photo above pretty much blows my reasoning on that apart.

This block? Confused....

Bee or GTX?

Restamped replacement?


How many hemi blocks out there are stamped 1a171777 ???

Hah! That's hilarious.

Re-stamped the VIN on a replacement block.

Again, using probably that off-the-shelf-dies where the "1" looks like an "I".

also:


https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/found-hemi-block-1a171777.268231/

I wish you still worked there. I have had KW trucks on order for well over a year and I am still waiting.

The problem with these ones that aren’t in a gang is you will always face questions when you sell. Somebody with a stamp kit, wild imagination, and copious amounts of time can spin up plausible scenarios all day long. You just never know if it will all unravel one day. What if a block shows up with your vin and what’s in the car is already supposed to be the original? Or maybe the next guy(s) won’t care anyway and it matters not.

Contrast this cuda with the 70 hemi bee on BaT getting all the raves right now. The numbers thing is merely a line in the ad and then a couple pics. The buzz around the car is how awesome it is, and some super minor stuff like rivets are the only demerits. When the buyer decides to move on, next time will likely be the same. People are laser focused on the numbers on the cuda, instead of talking about what a great car it is. If you buy a car with a story to be believed, what would one expect when they decide it’s time to sell? Somebody a few posts back said it can be hard to understand why the big guns come out for a car, when it’s a no compromises purchase it makes sense.

High Bid $221K - no sale...