New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame.

Posted by: Old Ray

New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 01/30/18 08:50 PM

[Sub-titled "rolled my body and got naked" (the frame).]

1956 Canadian Dodge (Plodge) two door wagon. I love my new Rotisserie, I could not continue building without it.
Turns out the sweet spot (were the Dakota and Plymouth) frames are the same width, is 18 " back from the centre line of the front wheels. (I hope!) The frame is cut 4 " long for overlap.



Posted by: 65rbdodge

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 01/31/18 06:39 PM

Nice!!
Posted by: Iowan

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 01/31/18 07:20 PM

What's going to power this beast?
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 01/31/18 08:32 PM

Hi, thanks for the replies. I was starting to think that I was married again, ......no one would talk to me.

Power is a 1992 318 5.2 fuel injected magnum. This will be my first FI project, so it will be an interesting adventure! shocked
Posted by: moparx

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 09:11 AM

the underside of your wagon is really solid. looks like a great start ! my first and only FI conversion was with my best bud's 55 chevy. we used an LTI and a conversion harness from those guys in arkansas, plus a shop manual for a cadillac [the same engine was used in it] the local chevy dealership tossed my way. that took many consultation phone calls, plus lots of reading up on my part to get a grasp on how the "foreign" brand does things. i learned stuff i didn't want to know ! but in the end, it was a sweet running ride. keep us up to date on your progress, please. up
beer
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 10:45 AM

Thanks moparx.

The underside picture is misleading, it was taken after the repair. it was bad.



My plan (?) on the FI is I have taken all the electronics off the Donner vehicle and left most of them still connected to the engine, it's not going to be a pretty sight under the hood, and mount them in the Plodge. I am hoping to trick the computer into thinking its still in a Dakota. confused

I will keep you posted as I go along, working on the frame now, contrary to popular belief (mostly mine) the Dakota rear axle (two wheel drive) will work width-wise, with ford deep offset wheels.
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 02:22 PM

My 1st EFI swap was the 90 Dakota stuff in my 48 Plymouth coupe. That has worked out pretty well. I used everything from the Dakota. A 92 is a bit more complex then the 90 was, the 92 is OBD2 while the 90 was OBD1. I believe as long as you are using the Dakota stuff it will still work out well, its when you start swapping other stuff in that causes the problems.


My current build is 39 Dodge truck sheet metal on a Dakota Chassis. I'm using a 91 Dakota donor, which is also OBD2. One of my issues is the donor was a V6 5 speed, and the drive train is a 5.9 auto from a 97 truck, so the V6 stick computer won't work. The 97 uses a digital speedometer and came with a Hot Wire harness. The 91 Dakota dash doesn't have a digital speedometer, and the remaining instrument cluster is incompatible with the 97 requirements. The Hot Wire harness is a stand alone unit unit requiring only a few wire connections to the truck harness. I really didn't want to use the Dakota dash anyway....

On top of that, I can't use the Dakota heater system (its too wide and doesn't conform to the firewall), and the steering column is too long and without a tilt I need for my 39 truck cab, so I'm using a different steering column and the wiring doesn't match up. It doesn't help that I don't have a wiring diagram for a 91 Dakota, there has been too many wiring changes from the 87 Dakota FSM I have. I thought I could clean up the under dash wiring harness, but there is this under dash control module causing a problem or 2. If I wasn't cheap (and broke) I'd just buy a $250 wiring kit and be done with the whole mess. I'm having fun now!

It is unfortunate that winter has come and the truck is sitting outside, too far away to be pushed in or out of the garage, and too far away to reach with my electric or air, and I'm a wimp, so its cold out there. Come on spring!

Keep moving forward, its nice to see guys making progress. Gene
Posted by: Supercuda

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 03:28 PM

OBDII didn't become mandatory till 1996 and a couple of manufacturers put it in in 95.

No one had it in production in 92.

I think you are confusing throttle body fuel injection (LA motor) and port fuel injection (magnum engine).
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 05:33 PM

Originally Posted By poorboy
It doesn't help that I don't have a wiring diagram for a 91 Dakota,


The mixing and matching is the kind of trouble I am trying to avoid.

Gene, I think I have a 92 shop manual, I could scan the pertinent wiring diagram page if it would help?
Posted by: bboogieart

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 09:26 PM

Nice looking toy. up

I give you fellas lots of credit.

I go the other way and run from the modern electronics.
I have a few 60's, & early 70's cars, trucks, & drive trains.
I'm still learnin' how that stuff goes together & werks.
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 10:26 PM

Originally Posted By Old Ray
Originally Posted By poorboy
It doesn't help that I don't have a wiring diagram for a 91 Dakota,


The mixing and matching is the kind of trouble I am trying to avoid.

Gene, I think I have a 92 shop manual, I could scan the pertinent wiring diagram page if it would help?


Old Ray, at this point if I can get a pin out for the rear body harness plug at the firewall for the 92 Dakota, that would help. The 87 didn't have a connector there, and that would save me from undoing all the wiring to the rear of the truck.

I've pretty much decided I needed to start at the fuse box and wire everything from there. I have most of the circuits laid out, its just a matter of getting everything in the right place and splice a bunch of wires. Gene
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 10:31 PM

Originally Posted By Θάνατος
OBDII didn't become mandatory till 1996 and a couple of manufacturers put it in in 95.

No one had it in production in 92.

I think you are confusing throttle body fuel injection (LA motor) and port fuel injection (magnum engine).


Your probably right, but the 92 harness is different from the 90 harness, and both were 3.9 throttle body motors. The 92 also has an underhood fuse box that the 90 does not have. My 93 port injected 3.9 has a different computer then the 90 or the 92, which both appear to be the same. Gene
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 10:44 PM

Originally Posted By bboogieart
Nice looking toy. up

I give you fellas lots of credit.

I go the other way and run from the modern electronics.
I have a few 60's, & early 70's cars, trucks, & drive trains.
I'm still learnin' how that stuff goes together & werks.


My last hot rod truck was carbed, and it didn't like any brand of carbs. I think I rebuilt or replaced a carb every year. After 12 years of fighting with carbs, I was ready for something that worked. The efi in my 48 Plymouth coupe works well.

I would have went with fuel injection way back in the mid 80s if there had been an affordable way to put a system on a Mopar. It still irritates me that there isn't a kit for Mopars to convert over for less then a grand, but you can convert over a GM for less the $500 with all new stuff. Gene
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/01/18 11:33 PM

Gene, looks like the 1992 has a 50 pin rectangle bulkhead, I have scanned it , easier I think to email it to you as an attachment. If so email address please, thanks.
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/02/18 02:22 PM

Old Ray, The tail harness I have is separate from the 50 pin bulkhead connector. This one is a blue connector with 17 pins (I'm attaching a picture of it, you might have to click on the attachment thing to see it.), It came through the lower firewall near the steering column with its own plug.

If I use the email system through Moparts, it uses Outlook Express, so I will include my email address here. It should show up as a link you can click on and send directly to me.

poorboysweldingshop@yahoo.com
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/03/18 03:21 PM

Originally Posted By poorboy
so I will include my email address here.


....email sent.
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/04/18 10:51 PM

Thank You, that helps a bunch!

Sorry I hijacked your thread. Gene
Posted by: 67R/T4speeder

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/08/18 10:34 AM

Nice work Old Ray, keep the updates coming.

I go get some more popcorn ready.
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/08/18 06:17 PM

SO! Not sure if i should ask this or not (under the heading of don't ask a question you don’t want to hear the answer to!) I am putting the running gear and front subframe from a ‘92 Dakota (with change to 5 stud wheels) in my ‘56 plymouth 2 door wagon. The “experts” said the Dakota diff is to wide but by using deep offset ford wheels (centering hub cut out 1 mm) it fits fine. Turns out the Dakota leaf rear springs are EXACTLY the same length as the Plymouth but the Dak springs have more arc, so to get as slammed (low) as I would like the rear of the springs are to high. So I could do many other things that involve money, ...or flip the rear spring mounting bracket over (they will still fit inside the body) and use the Dak springs bolted rather then welded, (just in case). Will it work?


,
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/08/18 10:54 PM

Yes, as long as the flip doesn't interfere with the car body, since the shackles and brackets are above the frame. Flipping the rear shackles will change the pinion angle some, as well, which may or may not be a problem. You can flip the front brackets as well, if it would help.

I bought a set of 2" lowering blocks with the U-bolts & nuts, and free shipping included for something like $30 off ebay a few months ago. I looked but, no longer have the link. I did a google search, a generic ebay listing showed up, and I scrawled down the list until I found what I was looking for, make sure there isn't one with a better price a little farther down the list. Gene

Posted by: moparx

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/09/18 08:07 AM

i don't see why that won't work ray. use grade 8 bolts and steel lock nuts that have the last couple of threads deformed [grade 8 as well] at final assembly. torqued at the proper value for the bolt size, and with as many bolts as you show, the shackles aren't going anywhere. A-bodys had the shackle hangers bolted on from the factory, so if it was good enough then, your solution will be good enough now.
beer
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/09/18 10:07 AM

Thank you Gentlemen, good input. I had to move the spring mount pads on the diff tube so the brackets are off and I will reset the pinion angle (3 deg?) when all done and weld them on. Front spring mounts still need bottom holes drilled in the frame so will look at flipping them as well. I have ordered lowering blocks from eBay, should be here in a week or so. Living in a (beautiful) small town in the hinterlands makes parts sourcing "interesting"!
wrench
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/09/18 02:52 PM

Set the pinion angle 2-3 degrees down from the angle of the transmission main shaft centerline, with the rear end supporting the weight. If you do it just hanging, the angle will be wrong. I get to buy a set of 6 degree wedge plates to correct my pinion angle because I got in a hurry and didn't have weight on the axle. Yea, it changed that much from just hanging to having the chassis weight on the axle! Gene
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/12/18 06:38 PM

I had already decided and built exhaust outlets (kina NASCAR style) in front of the rear wheels, I knew this was going to cause problems and I was right, the frame is in the way and there is no way to work around it, and one of the body mounts is also right there (pix 1) and my new springs are very close but I want IT! So, I think I have come up with this brand new idea, cut a hole in the frame and put a sleeve in, and then put the body bracket back on. Well, not so fast cowboy, after cutting the hole I search google and it turns out this is old hat, look at the cool exhaust passage kit. ( pix 4), Makes me feel better though.

So the question is; what will have most strength etc, the heavy pipe welded into the frame (Plan A no flanges) or two half pieces with flanges per each (tube type) frame rail bolted in like the kit (Plan B)? (or some combination of pipe and flanges “Work in Progress” ) Thanks.

,
,
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/12/18 10:32 PM

I'm a welder by trade, my vote is for welding the sleeve.
The problem with bolting stuff together on a hollow box (like the frame) is is that you almost have to have a spacer inside the box at each bolt to keeping it from crushing the box frame (like it looks like your shackle bolts are doing). The advantage with adding the extra brackets to the frame is that it spreads out the load to a wider footprint. Bolting the extra plates on was just a way around welding them in place.

That said, after the pipe is welded into place, adding a 2nd plate to the inside and the outside, then welding the outside of those plates (I would weld all the way around the extra plate) would add a lot of extra strength. Your cutting a pretty big hole in the frame, spreading the load a bit more wouldn't hurt. Gene
Posted by: moparx

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/13/18 08:01 AM

i'm with gene on this. if you look close at the first couple of pics, you can clearly see the front spring mounts are crushing the sides of the frame rails, including the washers used under the bolt holes. this area needs welding of all the components in my opinion. this area of the chassis is highly stressed, especially after the exhaust cut out, so failure in this area must be avoided.
beer
Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/13/18 09:53 PM

OK. Old ray and I have been communicating by email. But just in case someone is following along and wants to know a good fix for this, I feel the need to include what I would do here. Understand, this isn't the only way, but its how I would do it.

He has removed the shackles. He will be using lengths of pipe just large enough for the bolts to pass through. If there are threads cut into the pipe, cut them off, start with full thickness pipe or tube. Grind clean all areas that will be welded, at least 1/2" all around the weld area.

Enlarge the shackle bolt holes on the outside of the frame (the non-shackle side), just large enough to insert the pipe through. It is not necessary to enlarge the holes for the shackle side of the frame. Through these enlarges holes, use a punch or a piece of pipe and be sure the shackle side of the frame is flat. It should tap flat pretty easily. You can use a flat plate against the frame to be sure you don't bend it too far.

Insert the pipe through the enlarged shackle bolt holes and be sure the bolts pass through without dragging on the sides. Be sure the pipe is square to the frame surface and bottomed out against the shackle side of the frame. Weld around the tubing for all 4 bolt holes on the non-shackle side of the frame, and grind the surface flat.

Weld the exhaust tube to both sides of the frame, leaving a little of the tube above the frame surface. Cut 2 plates, one for each side of the frame. With the close proximity of the shackle to the exhaust tube, I would at least extend the non shackle side out 1" past the shackle bolt holes. The shackle side either needs to be cut short enough to not interfere with the shackle mounting after its welded, or it needs to extend out far enough for the shackle to mount flat against it. If it extends out far enough for the shackle to mount on the plate, you will need to transfer the shackle bolt holes to the plate (I'll cover that later).


The thickness of the plates should be 1/8" or 11 gauge. Any thicker is a waste of material and is more difficult to work with. The plates need to extend out forward and rearward at least 1" (1 1/2" would be better) beyond the exhaust tube welded to the frame, and should match the top and the bottom of the frame. If it includes the shackle bolt holes, it needs to extend at least 1" beyond the farthest away hole (or however far you need for the shackle to lay flat without encountering the weld seam.

Then cut the hole to fit over the exhaust tube and the existing weld, and trim the plate to match up with the frame. Both plates will have to sit tight against the frame to be effective. If the shackle ends up sitting on the plate, I would do the shackle side first. Position the plate over the exhaust tube, align it with the frame, clamp it tight against the frame side and weld to the exhaust tube. Then weld all around the outside of the plate. With the correct size drill, use the shackle bolt hole spacers as a guide and drill the holes through the shackle side plate from the outside. Make sure the shackle bolt holes line up and you will be able to bolt the shackles on the frame. This is the time to "adjust" the bolt holes.

Once you know the shackle will bolt on the back side, remove the shackle, and follow the same procedure for the front plate, position over the exhaust tube, position the plate to align up with the top and bottom of the frame, clamp tight, weld around the exhaust tube. Weld around the outside of the plate, and drill the shackle mounting holes using the bolt hole spacers as a guide to drill the holes through the front plate from the shackle side. There will be no need to weld either side of the shackle bolt holes to the plates. Bolt on the shackle to the frame with grade 8 hardware.

Repeat the process on the other side. Gene
Posted by: moparx

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/14/18 09:04 AM

exactly how i would do it. up a little extra work, but well worth it in the end.
beer
Posted by: Old Ray

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/16/18 04:15 PM

Anti crush sleeves and stiffening plate installed, I feel better now, thanks guys. (Bolts are just posed for the photo op!)

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Posted by: poorboy

Re: New Rotisserie and Plymouth frame cut for Dakota sub-frame. - 02/19/18 01:05 AM

That looks great! Good job! Gene