Moparts
Educate me about vacuum pumps
Posted By: jyrki
Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 12:12 PM
Going through friends 528 Wedge with CNC ported Indy heads. He bought it complete a couple of years ago from states, and it really hasn't performed according to expectations. I'll tear it a part and check it, and while at it he wants to install avacuum pump since the engine was designed to use one. What all is needed, and where to get the parts from? As far as I've understood,you aim at certain vacuum and limit it with aomekind of a leak retriction? Any good links or articles?l
Posted By: earthmover
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 04:02 PM
i'll be watching this
..
Posted By: 70blackfish
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 04:04 PM
I know there not good for the street, removes oil from the wrist pins.
aerospace components has them.
Posted By: Big Squeeze
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 04:12 PM
Quote:
I know there not good for the street, removes oil from the wrist pins.
According to the guys on YB, that's on old wive's tale....... 
Consensus is the more vacuum, the better..... 
Posted By: Bigcube
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 04:24 PM
I have a vacuum regulator that allows about 12" of vacuum. I will pull about 2 oz of oil per pass. I tested with and without the pump on Dwayne's dyno and saw 25-30 hp gain with the pump. Well worth the effort. It will also stop seeping type oil leaks around pan oil pan rails of intake valley so it's a win/win addition.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 04:27 PM
Quote:
Going through friends 528 Wedge with CNC ported Indy heads. He bought it complete a couple of years ago from states, and it really hasn't performed according to expectations. I'll tear it a part and check it, and while at it he wants to install avacuum pump since the engine was designed to use one. What all is needed, and where to get the parts from? As far as I've understood,you aim at certain vacuum and limit it with aomekind of a leak retriction? Any good links or articles?l
There are a few companies that make a decent vac pump...
Moroso makes 2 versions a 3 vane and 4 vane... I
have a Aerospace unit and I dont care for it(doesnt
pull enough)... with all the reading I did I found
that you dont want to exceed 14"HG or you get into
wrist pin oil issues... I pull 12"HG with just my
dry sump pump.... what do you need... the pump, lines
(I used braided lines), a good baffle in the valve
cover and a puke tank to catch any oil that the pump
pulls out(get a good one...get one that enters near the
bottom... if it inters near the top it sprays oil/mist
into the exiting air flow path and out the breather)...
then the only other thing would be the check valve
that would be mounted to the other valve cover...
some are adjustable, some fixed for the setting..
back to the pump... Moroso says the 4 vane was race
only and will pull more than 14", there is another
good pump(forget the name but its Motorsport something)
and they sell all the parts... also you need a drive
system... crank pulley and belt.... some but not all
of the pumps come with some sort of mounting....
thats about all I can think of
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 04:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I know there not good for the street, removes oil from the wrist pins.
According to the guys on YB, that's on old wive's tale....... Consensus is the more vacuum, the better.....
Not according to Rehere Morrison(sp) thats where I
read my info from
Posted By: Deepockets
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 04:34 PM
i have the moroso on the 528ci. i keep it conservitive at 10 lbs vacuum. you wont be sorry, except for the $900.00 bill you'll be out.
Posted By: Diablo
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 05:19 PM
for what you have I think a 3 vane moroso will do the job just fine. When we had our 496ci we ran a 3 vane and it pulled 12 with just the tap of the throttle. No need to buy a big pump if all it means is your vacuum limiter is always letting fresh air into the engine to limit you to 12.
We used a Moroso limiter also. I think it had 4 settings using little washers. From 8 to 16.
Posted By: RT540
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 06:23 PM
I have brand new 3-vane moroso with bracket and v-belt pulley, that you can make me an offer, or maybe something to trade for.
Some like to spend a little more and buys the enhanced moroso unit, don´t know how much better it is.
I had a plan to sell the vacuum pump with the 3-stage Weaver dry sump pump, as it is a spur gear pump, it needs more vacuum. The Weaver pump was rebuilt by Weaver Br. I had it sent to them.
with the Autoverdi 6-stage, I will not need an extra pump for vacuum.
Tom
Posted By: Edge
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 06:45 PM
Instead of pulling vacuuum from the valve cover you can pull from the fuel pump location as there is a limited amount of oil splashing from this location.
Posted By: Big Squeeze
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 07:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I know there not good for the street, removes oil from the wrist pins.
According to the guys on YB, that's on old wive's tale....... Consensus is the more vacuum, the better.....
Not according to Rehere Morrison(sp) thats where I
read my info from
Word is that the reason guys were hurting wrist pins back when that theory was started is because the pins were too weak and flexing.....not because of lack of oil..... Check out this link;
Vacuum thread on Yellow Bullet........
Posted By: hookNgone
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 07:28 PM
A 3 vane pump is more then adequate for wet sump engines..Ring seal, oil pan design, and overall sealing of engine components directly affect vacuum performance.
Over 14" of vacuum is not recommended due to piston skirt and wrist pin lubrication. Be sure to watch the oil pressure when on dyno, as it has been known to drop substantially with too much neg pressure.
Posted By: LA360
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 10:26 PM
Most of the decent engines I have come across ran a Star Machine Vacuum pump. They sell everything you will need. For the budget conscious racer there are the GZ Motorsports kits which work quite well also. I will be looking at one of their kits for my ride.
For a race engine, a vac pump is a worthwhile investment.
Posted By: Stroked_Hemi
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 10:43 PM
Posted By: Big Squeeze
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 11:27 PM
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/04/11 11:38 PM
Quote:
It's funny how many people say not to run too much vacuum because it'll pull too much oil from the wrist pins but none have personaly experienced it......or tried any higher.....even the guy that posted in the link above said he's ran as much as 20" without any problems but was scared so he lowered it back down to 15"...... 
On your link to YB the guy was running high vac
on nitrous applications where you have greater blow-by
and the vac was dropping during the run... he was actually
starting at 25"hg but ending the run at about 15"hg
so by rights he isnt running high vac
Posted By: 540dust
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 12:14 AM
If you're looking at the Moroso pumps, I think you should give this a look GZ VP104 Super Pro pump seems like a better deal to me, more capacity and less cost. Check it out
http://www.gzmotorsports.com/compare.html
Posted By: Big Squeeze
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 12:18 AM
Quote:
On your link to YB the guy was running high vac
on nitrous applications where you have greater blow-by
and the vac was dropping during the run... he was actually
starting at 25"hg but ending the run at about 15"hg
so by rights he isnt running high vac
True dat...... 
Read this thread on YB too.......... .....He says they run 25-26" on wet sumps, dry sumps, and naturally aspirated motors too....... and "We dont see any oiling trouble with high 25+ inches..old wives tale ALL PS car teams run all they can get
It makes more power the more you make it. The more you start with the more you have in reserve.
Starting with the highest you can get will not be enough at the finish with all the guns on.
The rings will stay sealed better and longer with 20" anything
Free, secret tip of the day ".....
It's all food for thought......I'd like to hear from someone that's been running a sorted out combo and they went up on vacuum and immediately started having wrist pin galling problems..... 
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 01:01 AM
Posted By: Diablo
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 01:12 AM
Quote:
If you're looking at the Moroso pumps, I think you should give this a look GZ VP104 Super Pro pump seems like a better deal to me, more capacity and less cost. Check it out http://www.gzmotorsports.com/compare.html
Thats what we used on our 640ci. Pretty sure it would be overkill for your engine but it has been a great pump for us!
Posted By: HEMIFRED
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 03:08 AM
Quote:
Most of the decent engines I have come across ran a Star Machine Vacuum pump.
I decided on a Star for one major reason they do not pull anything directly into the pump. Everything goes thru their VACUUM PUMP OIL SEPARATOR/EXHAUST TANK
first thus no trash that can tear up the rotors. All other designs require oil be passed into them. Star pumps are designed to run dry.
Quote:
The Pump is a “OIL-LESS” design, which requires NO LUBRICATION for operation. Oil in the Pump will not damage the Pump,
however it will reduce its performance. The dryer you can keep this Pump, the better it will work!
Quote:
VACUUM PUMP OIL SEPARATOR/EXHAUST TANK This new vacuum pump accessory is yet another example of Star Machines’ continuing effort to offer only the
finest vacuum components to the motorsports industry. Constructed of aluminum and CNC machined, the tank
can be completely disassembled if necessary. The “tank within a tank” design incorporates two separate
chambers. The inner oil separator chamber, containing a baffle and filter media, acts to reduce or eliminate oil
reaching the vacuum pump. A secondary benefit of this section is its ability to trap debris resulting from engine
failure before it can reach the vacuum pump and cause damage. The outer chamber serves as a free flowing
exhaust vent for the pump and also contains filter media. Separate drain cocks located in the bottom plate will
individually drain both chambers.
Posted By: scatpacktom
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 02:06 PM
I was able to borrow a Star vacuum pump at our last race. Pulled a safe 10 inches and it did nothing to my time slip, what is wrong with my engine?
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 07:29 PM
Quote:
I was able to borrow a Star vacuum pump at our last race. Pulled a safe 10 inches and it did nothing to my time slip, what is wrong with my engine?
I have heard that the vacume pumps only help above 6000 RPM What RPM do you shift your car at?
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 07:32 PM
FWIW we run a Moroso enhanced 4 vane on the orange car. I have it limited to 14lbs and have since the beginning. Tore it down at 223 passes and there was no sign of pin issues. It is back on thier now at the same vac settings. So far so good.
the silver car has a Dailey 5 stage dry sump and according to the data logger sees right at 18" a each pass.
Posted By: sg66mopar
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 08:53 PM
I went with the GZ setup. Mostly because they answered the phone and talked me through all the parts I needed.
The price was OK and the kit showed up here real fast.
Mine's only pulling around 12 at the top end because I have it regulated down that much.
After experimenting a little I finally put the pickup in the driver side valve cover (Thank's Al) and put an extension on the top of the tank so the breather is well above the tank.
Posted By: F1Scamp
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/05/11 09:13 PM
Quote:
I was able to borrow a Star vacuum pump at our last race. Pulled a safe 10 inches and it did nothing to my time slip, what is wrong with my engine?
Maybe your headgasket was already on its way out?
Posted By: an8sec70cuda
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/06/11 02:56 PM
I've had an aerospace pump on my car since 2008. No oiling problems. I have it set to pull about 12".
The pump did fail 2 weeks ago at a true street race at rockingham...just put the new one on this past weekend.
Posted By: HEMIFRED
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/06/11 03:25 PM
Quote:
I was able to borrow a Star vacuum pump at our last race. Pulled a safe 10 inches and it did nothing to my time slip, what is wrong with my engine?
not all engines will gain power with a pump.It depoends on the ring tension
Unless there is a decent amount of back pressure in the crankcase and it is effecting the ring seal it won't help.
Posted By: smokinwoody
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/06/11 03:59 PM
they suck!!...
Posted By: mopar_mark
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/06/11 11:56 PM
Quote:
Instead of pulling vacuuum from the valve cover you can pull from the fuel pump location as there is a limited amount of oil splashing from this location.
Is or has anyone else tried plumbing their Vacuum this way ?
Posted By: an8sec70cuda
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/07/11 02:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Instead of pulling vacuuum from the valve cover you can pull from the fuel pump location as there is a limited amount of oil splashing from this location.
Is or has anyone else tried plumbing their Vacuum this way ?
I have not, but a lot of people do and have no problems.
Posted By: smokinwoody
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/07/11 04:56 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Instead of pulling vacuuum from the valve cover you can pull from the fuel pump location as there is a limited amount of oil splashing from this location.
Is or has anyone else tried plumbing their Vacuum this way ?
I have not, but a lot of people do and have no problems.
any pictures with this setup??..
Posted By: Bigcube
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/07/11 05:37 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Instead of pulling vacuuum from the valve cover you can pull from the fuel pump location as there is a limited amount of oil splashing from this location.
Is or has anyone else tried plumbing their Vacuum this way ?
I have not, but a lot of people do and have no problems.
any pictures with this setup??..
I do know pulling vacuum from the valley cover is a bad idea. I tried it, it was pulling so much oil the output looked like a fire hose.
Posted By: gregsdart
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/07/11 06:18 PM
I had vacuum leaks that were hard to track down and could only pull 7 inch vac for quite a while on the moroso 3 vane. If I had it to do again, I would go four vain and use a bleed to control vacuum. I don't need one now on my 528, it will only pull 10/12 inches spinning it 50 percent engine speed, or about 3700 rpm. The bigger unit will consistently pull max vacuum from launch, and if you develop a small leak will still give you good vacuum to a point. Plus, for the few extra $$ you are set for a bigger motor if you move up.
I use a good, sidebucket oil pan, a baffled valve cover with a large baffle under the breather, set up front on the valve cover. I pull so little oil that I have gone five or six passes and it wasn't worth draining the little puke tank. I also use two breathers on the puke tank, to make sure that if there is any restriction with one, I don't have to worry about it. I wash them once a year.
Posted By: hvyweight
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/07/11 07:02 PM
That is the only way I could control the amount of oil coming into the pump. I tried the valley pan and the valve cover. The fuel pump plate work for me. I can also tell you that I had to put a shield around the front half of the breather tank to elminate a siphoning effect from the wind going throught the front of my car at 145+ mph!
Posted By: Edge
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 12/07/11 08:23 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Instead of pulling vacuuum from the valve cover you can pull from the fuel pump location as there is a limited amount of oil splashing from this location.
Is or has anyone else tried plumbing their Vacuum this way ?
I have not, but a lot of people do and have no problems.
any pictures with this setup??..
there is a picture in my earlier post on the topic, not a great picture but you can see the 12 AN line from the pump going behind motorplate to the fuel pump plate. It is Moroso piece that comes with the 12 AN male end and the plate is tapped and machined for the ORB fitting
Posted By: racerx
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 05/05/12 09:41 PM
I did a search and came up with this old thread
on vacuum pumps.Just like to add that sense I've change out my valley plate and installed a set of the Super Performance gaskets i've see an increase in vacuum readings
so ...anyone no whats a good reading at idle?I know that u don't want to go past 14" in a full past.........Thax.
Posted By: dvw
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 05/06/12 02:26 AM
Quote:
If you're looking at the Moroso pumps, I think you should give this a look GZ VP104 Super Pro pump seems like a better deal to me, more capacity and less cost. Check it out http://www.gzmotorsports.com/compare.html [/quote
I agree on paper they look as good as anybody. About the same cost as a Moroso but a nicer piece. Is it better? well see in a month or so.
Doug
Posted By: dvw
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 05/06/12 02:29 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Instead of pulling vacuuum from the valve cover you can pull from the fuel pump location as there is a limited amount of oil splashing from this location.
Is or has anyone else tried plumbing their Vacuum this way ?
I have not, but a lot of people do and have no problems.
any pictures with this setup??..
I did it . 1/2' pipe tapped into the block off plate. With a Jessel there's nothing spinning in there except the crank. Additionally the GZ pump is designed to pull some oil.
Doug
Posted By: curleysracecars
Re: Educate me about vacuum pumps - 05/06/12 05:15 AM
Star Machine is the nicest stuff out there, but there are alot of companies offering them. For a typical setup, pull 10-12" of vacuum. When you are looking for any little bit of power, you can raise it. Be careful...too much will starve areas of the engine of oil. We run Star Machine's mountain motor pump on our 820" motor and have it set around 16". It will tell you how good your motor is sealed up, and will help with oil leaks as well.