Moparts

Scrub path length calculation?

Posted By: polyspheric

Scrub path length calculation? - 12/02/11 08:01 PM

I've gotten a few questions about this, and noticed some commentary regarding "how large should this be?" (in addition to where it stops & starts).
Some very large numbers have been reported with no shock & awe.
In general, the scrub should be smaller than you would think, meaning some of those big numbers are really danger signals - the geometry isn't what you want. If you can't find another way, reducing the scrub length is a good direction to go.
All you need to predict what the minimum scrub should be is:
1. set the valve-side lever to mid-lift, yatta yatta
2. what's the effective length of the long lever (shaft center to roller axle or pad radius)
3. what's the net valve lift?

Let "S" = the minimum scrub length
Let "R" = rocker's long lever effective length
Let "L" = net valve lift

The formula is:
S=R-(R^2-(L/2)^2)^.5

Example 1:
R (lever) = 1.75", L (lift) = .600"
S=1.75-(1.75^2-(.600/2)^2)^.5
S=1.75-(3.0625-(.09)^.5
S=1.75-1.724
S=.026"

Example 2:
R (lever) = 1.50", L (lift) = .700"
S=1.50-(1.50^2-(.700/2)^2)^.5
S=1.50-(2.25-.1225)^.5
S=1.50-1.459
S=.041"

As you can see, scrub figures like .080" show something isn't working...

You can also calculate the rocker angle at zero lift and full lift (which will be the same with mid-lift, duh!).
The total arc (1/2 up, 1/2 down) is:
2×arcsin(L/2R)

Example 1 (R (lever) = 1.75", L (lift) = .600"):
L/2R=.600÷3.50=.171
sin=.171
Total arc = 19.74°
Posted By: BradH

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/02/11 08:06 PM

You should just post this over on the Advanced Engine Tech forum on Speedtalk.com. This place can barely handle topics like "How much do I torque my rod bolts?" these days...
Posted By: S/ST 3040

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/02/11 09:59 PM

I'll hang on to this for further study.

Thanks
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/02/11 10:36 PM

Quote:

You should just post this over on the Advanced Engine Tech forum on Speedtalk.com. This place can barely handle topics like "How much do I torque my rod bolts?" these days...




Look who's talkin
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 12:38 AM

I wrote an Excel spreadsheet that does it automatically if you know your rocker length.
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 01:55 AM

Look at my exhausts! This just does not look right~!

Attached picture 6947712-exhaust.JPG
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 01:57 AM

Here is the intake, looks much better!

Attached picture 6947718-intake.JPG
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 03:35 AM

Those look like stock ductiel iron Hemiroid rockers Time to send them in for rocker ratio correction, rocker tip correction and blueprinting Have you check the net lift at the retainers on all of the valves yet? If not, now is a good time to do that
Posted By: BradH

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 03:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You should just post this over on the Advanced Engine Tech forum on Speedtalk.com. This place can barely handle topics like "How much do I torque my rod bolts?" these days...




Look who's talkin




From a tech perspective, this forum is a shadow of its former self. I still try to post questions of a reasonably tech-oriented nature (along w/ the occasional one that veers off course ) even knowing the responses are likely to be "less than satisfactory" from a content perspective.

It is what it is... and my s.w.a.g. is the OP's tendency to be "highly formulaic" in his descriptions goes right over the heads of a good percentage of the people who remain on this forum.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 05:11 PM

That's why I mentioned the .xls, I figured there are people who are happy to know that it can be predicted but hate math!
Posted By: 9secondsatellite

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 08:31 PM

Quote:

I've gotten a few questions about this, and noticed some commentary regarding "how large should this be?" (in addition to where it stops & starts).
Some very large numbers have been reported with no shock & awe.
In general, the scrub should be smaller than you would think, meaning some of those big numbers are really danger signals - the geometry isn't what you want. If you can't find another way, reducing the scrub length is a good direction to go.
All you need to predict what the minimum scrub should be is:
1. set the valve-side lever to mid-lift, yatta yatta
2. what's the effective length of the long lever (shaft center to roller axle or pad radius)
3. what's the net valve lift?

Let "S" = the minimum scrub length
Let "R" = rocker's long lever effective length
Let "L" = net valve lift

The formula is:
S=R-(R^2-(L/2)^2)^.5

Example 1:
R (lever) = 1.75", L (lift) = .600"
S=1.75-(1.75^2-(.600/2)^2)^.5
S=1.75-(3.0625-(.09)^.5
S=1.75-1.724
S=.026"

Example 2:
R (lever) = 1.50", L (lift) = .700"
S=1.50-(1.50^2-(.700/2)^2)^.5
S=1.50-(2.25-.1225)^.5
S=1.50-1.459
S=.041"

As you can see, scrub figures like .080" show something isn't working...

You can also calculate the rocker angle at zero lift and full lift (which will be the same with mid-lift, duh!).
The total arc (1/2 up, 1/2 down) is:
2×arcsin(L/2R)

Example 1 (R (lever) = 1.75", L (lift) = .600"):
L/2R=.600÷3.50=.171
sin=.171
Total arc = 19.74°


thanks for the post. good info.
Posted By: RodStRace

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 09:09 PM

Interesting math, but how does this translate to heads, rocker arms, pushrods and valves?
Let's say that you have trial assembled your combo and done the math provided.

How do you measure scrub?
How do you correct it?
You can lengthen the valve end with lash caps (requiring shorter pushrods)
What else?
Machine to move the rocker shaft closer/further from the valve?
Try various rockers?
Machine the rocker arm pads?
Posted By: dvw

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 09:22 PM

Quote:

Interesting math, but how does this translate to heads, rocker arms, pushrods and valves?
Let's say that you have trial assembled your combo and done the math provided.

How do you measure scrub?
How do you correct it?
You can lengthen the valve end with lash caps (requiring shorter pushrods)
What else?
Machine to move the rocker shaft closer/further from the valve?
Try various rockers?
Machine the rocker arm pads?




This brings up an interesting point. My heads are -1 indys, T&D individual shaft rockers. I would have thought that the stands would be located thru the previous rocker shaft locations (after milling the pads flat). This is how the previous owner of my heads located them. I found the roller tip to be aprox .065" toward the intake side of the valves. The geometry checker from T&D lined up with-in a few thousands. However I had to mill the head and offset bore the holes that held the stands. Then we installed thread inserts. All looks close now.
Doug
Posted By: 67_Satellite

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 09:53 PM

I enjoy the 'tech oriented" questions here. If some "ar$eholes"have driven knowledgeable people from this forum, I hope that won't keep the remaining few from sharing their secrets with the rest of us. I enjoy a "mopar only" site and hope to keep it as good as it can be.
Posted By: cudadon

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/03/11 11:37 PM

Quote:

I enjoy the 'tech oriented" questions here. If some "ar$eholes"have driven knowledgeable people from this forum, I hope that won't keep the remaining few from sharing their secrets with the rest of us. I enjoy a "mopar only" site and hope to keep it as good as it can be.




Thanks for the info! Don

Attached picture 6949151-DSC00322.JPG
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/04/11 06:37 AM

Quote:

Interesting math, but how does this translate to heads, rocker arms, pushrods and valves?
Let's say that you have trial assembled your combo and done the math provided.

How do you measure scrub?
How do you correct it?
You can lengthen the valve end with lash caps (requiring shorter pushrods)
What else?
Machine to move the rocker shaft closer/further from the valve?
Try various rockers?
Machine the rocker arm pads?




I didnt do the math to find out the sweep/scrub but
with checking and some math I ended up cutting .160
off the pads on my W-5s to run the TD multi shafts
to get the minimum sweep which is about .020 now
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/04/11 09:29 AM

The lift at the retainers should be around .620, I am getting .542-.553 and most are on the lower side. The lobe lift was .387 and the cam card shows it should have been .400. The intakes are good, its the exhausts that calculated a ration of about 1.39-1.40. It time to get the rockers done, who do I send them to and how much will this extend my budget? Tim

Quote:

Those look like stock ductiel iron Hemiroid rockers Time to send them in for rocker ratio correction, rocker tip correction and blueprinting Have you check the net lift at the retainers on all of the valves yet? If not, now is a good time to do that


Posted By: DavidDean

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/05/11 06:03 PM

I better keep this one but speedtalk might be the better place to post this.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/09/11 08:03 PM

Quote:

You should just post this over on the Advanced Engine Tech forum on Speedtalk.com. This place can barely handle topics like "How much do I torque my rod bolts?" these days...



https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post6958087

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/09/11 08:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You should just post this over on the Advanced Engine Tech forum on Speedtalk.com. This place can barely handle topics like "How much do I torque my rod bolts?" these days...



https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0#Post6958087






and there you go, the proof.
Posted By: Leon441

Re: Scrub path length calculation? - 12/09/11 10:56 PM

I'm going to save this. Good information.

Leon
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