How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning?

Posted By: Dragula

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 08:39 PM

just making a point that you obviously pay attention to how your car is running to run as well as it does. IMO experience with the wideband, it will not show lean cylinder to rich cylinders. my six pack has jetting all over the place. i do what i have to do to make all cylinders look equal. a wideband just wont tell you that unless you have bungs in all cylinders.

as for guys washing down cylinder walls, sure, i know many bracket racers that slap something together and as long as they can run consistantly thats all they care about. that makes me crazy. puffing black smoke driving around the pits and they dont care. then i see other guys times pickup as the weather gets hotter because there car is so lean.

i'm not saying not to have one, i have one in my car and its ON every time i go for a drive. but can it fine tune a crossram or tunnel ram? it may help a little but you wont get your tune right unless you look at plugs. if you only use an wideband to tune, you could have lean cyl and rich cyl and not know what is going on at all

Actually a good point. A wide band looks at the average, and not each cylinder and obviuosly you want to stay within a range, but there are those of us that have intakes and carb set-ups that not all cyclinders are equal, and this is where more work is required. I try and stick with intakes that don't require a tone of work to get the plugs to look even. For the most part, on a single plane intake and only one carb, the plugs should be farely close...If not, there is more work to do than just tuning the carb for best average A/F. There is more to it than that. Most bracket racers are not satisfied with "runs ok" and we like all our plugs even, but a smidge lean. Our temp swings here in one day can be too much to want to change jets every time the weather changes.

Posted By: Big B

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 08:46 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't bother building a car these days without a wideband in it. The things are so cheap it is crazy not to use them. I see engines every year that are ruined by guys who have their carbs jetted too rich. The extra fuel washes down the guides or the rings and the motors get toasted. The engine builder I work with sees at least one motor a year that gets killed by a bad tune.

That's exactly what happened to my motor prior to getting a wideband. I have a 3 circuit dominator. I was cruising in the 11:1 range...can you say rich as hell. Had to install a power valve, jet down the primaries 8 sizes, restrict the tranfer slots down to .063, and jet down the intermediate jets to .020. Now it cruises at 14.5-15:1 and the plugs look perfect.

So to me a wideband was priceless!

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 08:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I wouldn't bother building a car these days without a wideband in it. The things are so cheap it is crazy not to use them. I see engines every year that are ruined by guys who have their carbs jetted too rich. The extra fuel washes down the guides or the rings and the motors get toasted. The engine builder I work with sees at least one motor a year that gets killed by a bad tune.

That's exactly what happened to my motor prior to getting a wideband. I have a 3 circuit dominator. I was cruising in the 11:1 range...can you say rich as hell. Had to install a power valve, jet down the primaries 8 sizes, restrict the tranfer slots down to .063, and jet down the intermediate jets to .020. Now it cruises at 14.5-15:1 and the plugs look perfect.
So to me a wideband was priceless!

so you couldnt tell there was an issue looking at the plugs before that?

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 08:58 PM

I like the wide band but at the track I use the MPH
for my WOT setting then check that with the wide band
not the other way around... the wide band is useful
in the mid range

Posted By: moparniac

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 10:03 PM

I really like my wideband! I think its a great tool.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 11:35 PM

I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one......

The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when your PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 11:44 PM

Quote:

I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when you're PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

how have you applied this to bracket racing? I guess I am one of those guys that don't give a flip whats going on as long as the car repeats lap after lap. that's what wins races/money not having a perfect tune. I could care less about being politically correct. I give mine what it wants to make it run the number. but I would like to know what the LM1 says just from curiosity. bring your dang gizmo down and spend a day at the track

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/02/11 11:53 PM

I just added a racepak to the duster this year and love it. Make a run, pull the sd card plug it in your laptop. I start recording right before I heat the tires. It charts my O2 readings, battery voltage, oil pressure, trans temp, carb press, g forces, rpm, and water temp. I welded fittings in both collectors so I can monitor both sides. It sure saved me a lot of time getting the jetting right.

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 01:01 AM

Quote:

I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when you're PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

while i agree with everything your saying, it still does not makes things perfect

example, NASCAR says the reason they are going to FI is because the motor needs to be jetted much richer then it actually needs to be because G forces will make the whole left bank lean. what good would a LM1 plugged into the rght bank of a fast roundy round car do? melt and detonate the whole left bank

if I was to tune my engine on a chassis dyno, it would be completely different than my car going down the track. my front carbs are jettd 6 sizes larger than the rear. how many guys here would do that?

PPMracing that is building Mr Sixpack's new engine has said the same thing about what i'm saying.

the only real tool that would really work is having EGTs in each cylinder.

and BTW, and Dram can back this up because i called him immediately, I was so pissed when i put my LM1 on my car because it said i was spot on everywhere from tuning at the track and looking at plugs.

Posted By: quick77rt

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 01:13 AM

When I got my ride tuned right I learned to watch the wideband and its pattern.

From time to time if I get junk in a carb it shows it before I feel it.

Had one spray run go wrong and the first thing to let me know was the wideband, aborted without any issues. If I did the full run Id of had alot of issues.

So I use it for a warning tool.....

I went 3 years on one of my N/A motors without ever putting a timing light on it......a friend sent me one, hooked it up....dead on 34 locked out, didnt even loosen the dist....good or lucky????

Would you throw your timing light away???

Posted By: BSB67

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 02:25 AM

Quote:

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

IMO, this sums it up. I have helped a couple of guys improve their et by convincing them to stop chasing perfect A/F data. I'm not aware of anyone improving their et by tuning emulsion jets, but I suspect it is possible.

Posted By: ToddP

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 03:12 AM

I have to chime in here as well. With out a doubt the best tuning tool of the past 7 or 8 years when they became affordable. (ie inovate motorsports). For all the reasons others here have stated.

Here is another reason others have not noted, but I would like to address.

The ability to determine weather you have an ignition or fuel related problem. Sometimes the differences can be subtle. The wide band will tell you right away if you have an ignition problem.

I have tti headers that run very close to a plug wire. The wide band will tell me if the wire is compromised, before I even get a hint of a miss while seat of the pants tuning.

To be very honest, I lack the necessary carb tuning skills to even guess at the proper carb set up without a wide band. Because of the way modern fuels are today , don't tell me you can "read plugs" with a flash light and magnifying glass. You can use a magnifying glass, I will use a wide band.

While if your budget allows, a dyno and a stopwatch are very hard to beat as the king of tuning tools.

Posted By: radar

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 04:15 AM

I'm with the guys saying it is invaluable for a street tune. Especially for me because I first really dove into carb tuning around the same time I got one. It's pretty easy to tune for wot reading plugs and idle with a vac gauge but it took the wideband to tell me my idle feed restrictions were too big for off idle cruising.

I used to drive on the highway to work every day and it kept my plugs clean. When I moved near work I turned into the guy changing plugs every week. Should I have seen my four corner idle settings at 3/4 turn out each as a sign of a large IFR? Probably, but I'm kinda new at this stuff.

I also like how it shows any clogged carb problems etc and I can just clean out the bowl and block instead of chasing my tail.

Having said all that, once I get my carb dialed in to my new cam I'll be taking that crazy arcade lightshow out and finishing the tune on the track.

Rdr

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 04:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I can't imagine ever going back to tuning without one...... The "look" of the plugs only tells you so much.......just like that number the O2 spits out only tells you so much....It shows lean and rich stumbles and you INSTANTLY know it's a lean OR rich stumble, instead of guessing and spending DAYS trying to dial it in....I just thought I had some of my cars dialed in, until I hooked my LM1 up!! lol

You can turn just ONE of the six idle mixuture screws on a Six Pack and SEE it on the O2 that's in just one pipe.........There's NO WAY reading plugs will tell you that.....

You can also see when your PV opens up........you can watch the motor get leaner as you tip in, then watch it get instantly rich......Plugs won't tell you that and the ass-dyno isn't that accurate........

If it's a race only car that has to only idle and go WOT, you don't really need it (but it can help)........but for anything street driven, IMHO, it's a must-have......

while i agree with everything your saying, it still does not makes things perfect

example, NASCAR says the reason they are going to FI is because the motor needs to be jetted much richer then it actually needs to be because G forces will make the whole left bank lean. what good would a LM1 plugged into the rght bank of a fast roundy round car do? melt and detonate the whole left bank

if I was to tune my engine on a chassis dyno, it would be completely different than my car going down the track. my front carbs are jettd 6 sizes larger than the rear. how many guys here would do that?

PPMracing that is building Mr Sixpack's new engine has said the same thing about what i'm saying.

the only real tool that would really work is having EGTs in each cylinder.

and BTW, and Dram can back this up because i called him immediately, I was so pissed when i put my LM1 on my car because it said i was spot on everywhere from tuning at the track and looking at plugs.

I agree too that it doesn't make it perfect....

neither does reading plugs when you're trying to tune the driveability of a motor.....

OK......I wasn't talking NASCAR

......I'm talking getting a car tuned to where it's as driveable as possible.......Have the NASCAR guys run an O2 in every header tube?? I'm assuming they have??? That would be MUCH better than EGT's IMHO........

I can take a car that's got a brand new combo and tune it to be very close to ideal just by knowing what numbers to shoot for from past experience with similar combos.......then I go to the track and jet the end carbs for max ET and trap speed.....

The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front versus where you'd jetted it with the O2?

Point being that 98% of the guys I build motors for, that drive fairly regularly on the street, would never see that difference or feel it in the ass-dyno, since 99% of the time the car is moving it's seeing less than 1.2 G's

.......but I have taken a LOT of cars and made them feel like they have fuel injection while driving around because of how smooth they transition......and that's what I use it for....

Something else that's great about O2's (and this is for you too, Quicktree

) Once you dial your car in......and you see what A/F your motor likes, when you go to really bad or really good air, you can shoot for that number to get you into the ballpark really quick.......same goes for nitrous.......when you hit the button, you can shoot for that same number where it was running it's best trap speeds naturally aspirated (or even leaner sometimes because of less fuel fallout since the motor revs faster)........it makes getting there a lot faster.......

Quote:

how have you applied this to bracket racing? I guess I am one of those guys that don't give a flip whats going on as long as the car repeats lap after lap. that's what wins races/money not having a perfect tune. I could care less about being politically correct. I give mine what it wants to make it run the number. but I would like to know what the LM1 says just from curiosity. bring your dang gizmo down and spend a day at the track

Like I mentioned, there really isn't going to be a huge gain for most drag race only cars if the guy has an idea how to tune......

I like my motors to run as cleanly as possible....most guys have no idea how rich or lean their motors are while running down the track......How many times have you heard a guy say their "motor was running great all year and all of a sudden it torched a head gasket" or whatever??.......

I know that most bracket racers don't tune their stuff (they bolt the carb on, set the idle mixture to where it idles it's best and run it).....they're just like most street rod guys........as long as their car fires up and makes it to the local cruise in/car show without leaving them stranded on the road, they're happy with how it runs.....

Like already mentioned.....I also use it as a safety/alert device

......It tells me instantly if the A/F is still where it needs to be or if something else is going on......

Something else about O2's......It's fairly common knowledge that as the motor goes up through the rpm range, you don't need as much fuel since there's less fuel fallout with that extra air speed, so you can watch the fuel curve and tune a curve into your motor with air bleeds that gets anywhere from .5 to 1 full point leaner as it goes up.....

Posted By: RobX4406

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 05:15 AM

I guess the question is do you want it repeatable running clean or not.

I know one car that ran spot on time, run after run, was only launching at about 10.7-11:1 AF. Just a tad rich. WOT was perfect. Think that is a good situation. Even if it is, is that acceptable?

Once the rich condition was addressed, the car launched even more consistently and picked up 60'. Still ran lap after lap on slightly better number. Any drawback there?

I bet the engine will last longer too not having to huff through that pig rich area waiting on the lights.

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 06:44 AM

Quote:

The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front

7mph

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 06:56 AM

I don't own one, but would like to.
I use the wideband O2 at the chassis dyno.
It lets you know right away of your tuning is off, and what the fuel curve looks like through the RPM range. Also makes tuning easier and faster. One of the beat ways to tune a street car that does not goto the track. The Charger that I race, I will make tuning changes at the track, but at least I know the baseline tune will not damage the engine.

Posted By: hemi-itis

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 07:03 AM

Wayne,what ith difference between EGT's & o/2's in each cylinder.I had bungs intalled in each tube for egt's and did not get to use them on dyno day.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 02:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The real question is; How much ET and trap speed did you pick up by jetting your motor 6 numbers richer in the front

7mph

What's the whole story? You jetted the end carbs to get it to run the best it could, then looked at the O2 to see what it showed? then started reading the plugs and stagger jetting and it picked up 7MPH??

Or, did you just jet the end carbs to get it to read a certain number on the O2, like mid 12's.....and then started reading plugs and stagger jetting to got it to pick up 7MPH??

I'm also assuming the air was basically the same throughout all this too??

Quote:

Wayne,what ith difference between EGT's & o/2's in each cylinder.I had bungs intalled in each tube for egt's and did not get to use them on dyno day.

I've got EGT's on my car too (mainly because they came with the used RacePak I'd bought), but they're really only there to tell you if you've got a dead hole either because of a plug wire, cracked plug or bad coil on that cylinder.........even Top Fuel guys will tell you they're basically useless for tuning.....it just tells them exactly when it dropped a cylinder......

Something else to think about.......Your motor may not necessarily want all the EGT's or even O2 readings cylinder to cylinder to be exactly the same.........especially in the case of a Six Pack where it's got a dual plane intake.....end cylinders typically run hotter........the right bank typically runs hotter than the left bank.....longer runners and runners with more of a bend typically need more fuel.......now throw in the G forces of the car launching and running down the track (like Ray mentioned) and it's crazy what it takes to tune that especially when you have 3 jets per back to tune with

........

Posted By: Bad340fish

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 03:07 PM

I just recently installed one in my car. I will be learning alot of IFRs and air bleeds I can already tell.

Posted By: sshemi

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 03:21 PM

if one can tune fsater & better NOT useing it im �#"!"#%&#" impressed.
Sure it doesnt show bad parts (plugs, wires etc) but i think that my 10+ years experience can.

Aldough i look at the plugs also once in a while because it is a tool that CAN break.

Also tuneing for max mph is not perfect either, you can have a lean & a rich mix somewhere in the rpm range at the same time.

If i was to be 250 years old i guess it isnt nessecary(sp)

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 03:41 PM

Quote:

What's the whole story? You jetted the end carbs to get it to run the best it could, then looked at the O2 to see what it showed? then started reading the plugs and stagger jetting and it picked up 7MPH??

Or, did you just jet the end carbs to get it to read a certain number on the O2, like mid 12's.....and then started reading plugs and stagger jetting to got it to pick up 7MPH??

after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT. then went a Dyno day and drove over there and i made 540 whp but it was reading a 14-1 but a cold front had moved in and it was freezing so i knew i would be going to the track soon. plugs looked good. made a few passes and it wasnt to impressive. AF was in the 13s. so i pulled all the plugs, and the rears had dark color. fronts plugs were bone white. so i just threw abunch of numbers at it. then again. then again. went from 103 to 110mph.

only at the track would this show this. wot on the street really wouldnt because your not really going anywhere. just wasting rubber

after the smoke settled, i think i started with 84s in the outboards to 89front 82 rears. and i may have added a number to the center carb. something lke that

and this looks normal compared to the weiand cross ram that had huge differences all over.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 04:01 PM

Quote:

after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT......

What do you mean by it "read perfect"??

What does the O2 show now??

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 04:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

after i changed my combo to a roller cam and when i had the big sheetmetal ram on the car. i bolted my carbs on and hooked th LM1 up. read perfect. it was really HOT......

What do you mean by it "read perfect"??

What does the O2 show now??

it reads the same thing now as it did when i first tried it. 14 at cruise. 12.5-13 at WOT. thats my whole point. what it says on the street and chassis dyno doesnt reflect what will happen at the track.

my good friend buider and tuner of some really fast cars, leaning on my fender, pointed at the numbers on the top of my carbs and said, not many guys would do that.

i would like to know, if guys ever looked at the old jetting tips from the old engine manual. popsicle sticks and jetting all over

I'm sorry if some dont believe me. i'm just trying to be helpful. i'll crawl back in my hole now

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 04:36 PM

plug reading............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiMM2S0aADM

Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 04:52 PM

The main difference between the drag strip and street/chassis dyno tune is the acceleration G-forces. With the Holley on my Charger, I have blocked the rear power valve and jetted up using jet extentions and the notched float.
Depending on the fuel system, it may also reduce fuel pressure under acceleration, all the above would tend to lean out the carb when racing.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 05:00 PM

I really like my wide band oxygen sensor system.
IMO, you need the recording ability to analyze the data, not just looking at a guage while you try to drive. But glancing at some numbers while driving in the pits or changing throttle settings (street) is useful while recording.

It is just a tool, there is no magic number and every combo will like slightly different numbers; but good ranges are availble. One of the best things I like is confirmation that the change I made actually had the result I was looking for, that doesn't happen 100% of the time. Like changing the jets, sometimes the A/F change is too small to make a difference, or larger than expected. Also, a misfire may not be noticed by the driver, but the spike in A/F shows up on the recording. The recording helps define the A/F change with RPM, throttle position, etc.

Use this tool with all the others to make the best decisions. Spark plug reading, timeslips, etc. even the smell of the exhaust at idle!

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 05:53 PM

Quote:

it reads the same thing now as it did when i first tried it. 14 at cruise. 12.5-13 at WOT. thats my whole point. what it says on the street and chassis dyno doesnt reflect what will happen at the track.

my good friend buider and tuner of some really fast cars, leaning on my fender, pointed at the numbers on the top of my carbs and said, not many guys would do that.

i would like to know, if guys ever looked at the old jetting tips from the old engine manual. popsicle sticks and jetting all over

I'm sorry if some dont believe me. i'm just trying to be helpful. i'll crawl back in my hole now

I believe you....

just trying to get the whole story...Like I said......it's just a number......but it sure makes tuning driveability NICE and WAY easier than tuning by the seat of the pants, which is what most guys want one for......

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 06:09 PM

this is the reason I posted the plug reading. if you don't have the proper tools and time pulling one out and eyeballing it does very little.

Reading For Air Fuel Mixture
The porcelain around the plugs center electrode can be divided into three areas for reading. The area that is closest to the tip is affected by the idle and transition circuits carburetor circuits and is of no real concern to a racer. If this area is gray then you drove the car back to the pits and you cannot correctly read the plugs. The middle area is only colored when you drive down the road at around a steady 30-40 mph and is normally affected by the primary circuit jetting with the power valve closed and this is really of no concern to the racer. The area you are interested in is that third that is all the way up inside the plug where the sun don't shine. This area is colored when all is wide open under full power because the combustion chamber heat totally cleans off the other two areas. It will take a special plug reading flashlight with the magnifying glass to view it correctly. Plugs cannot be correctly read by just quickly looking at them with the naked eye. You see people doing it all the time because they do not know how to read plugs.
Normally aspirated cars should have a light gray or tan hydrocarbon ring or as some call it a "fuel ring" all the way up inside around the third area closest to the point where the porcelain is attached to the metal jacket of the plug. The actual color may depend on type of fuel you use. This fuel ring should appear like a light shadow. Most VP C-15, C-16 or C23+ fuels will show as a light gray when correct. This fuel ring starts to color on the porcelain side that is below the ground strap and works its way around either side of the center electrode until it completely joins. Sometimes it may take two or three runs to see a good coloring. Note: New engines or engines that pump a little oil may show a thin oily line way down inside on the porcelain where the porcelain meets the metal wall of the plug. This oil line has nothing to do with the air/fuel mixture but may be confused with the fuel ring you are looking for.If you are having a hard time figuring out if what you are reading is correct or because you are not sure if the plug heat range is correct then tow the car back to the pits and drop the headers and look inside the pipes. If they are black then you are too rich, if they are light gray or white then you are too lean. The pipes should be a medium to dark gray or tan color. Normally the white area of the porcelain has a chalky appearance. If you see the porcelain take on a shine then it is time to change the plugs because the glass that is in the porcelain has been melted and has glazed the surface. If the car has been running rich (due to lots of idling or incorrect fuel mixture) then it is possible to glaze the plugs and short them out during a run because of the sudden heating of the plug with the soot on the porcelain. This glazing appears to be a glossy coating on the porcelain with a splotches of color of greenish yellow or brown. THESE TWO DIFFERENT GLAZING'S WILL CAUSE the plug to short out and MISFIRE and raise ring lands or make a popping through the exhaust when going down the track.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 06:12 PM

READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 07:13 PM

and the moral to this story is that you don't use the color of the porcelain to determine jetting....

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 08:21 PM

Quote:

READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

Posted By: jbc426

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 09:24 PM

I found this article helpul while learning how to use my Wideband.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article/15762/carburetor_tuning_the_airfuel_equation.aspx

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 09:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

yep and how many people do you see that say they keep adding jet until the porcelain has tanned? little do they know they have probably fouled out the plug. it may still run but it wont be right. I think there are few that really know how to read a plug or have the tools. really I don't pay much attention to the fuel ring on a N/A motor you can see what you need on the base ring in most cases.I know the boosted cars pay a lot more attention to that. and also I have found the fastest way down the track is not good for a bracket racer. rich is not good for being consistent.I was just offered to use a LM2 from a friend on here. I'll get it when I get chance and see where mine is and if it compares to where I think it's at.I know mine is over rich on the idle and transition and should be mildly lean up top.don't care about cruise at all.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 09:59 PM

looking for my fire suit now

Posted By: Hot 340

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 10:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

yep and how many people do you see that say they keep adding jet until the porcelain has tanned? little do they know they have probably fouled out the plug. it may still run but it wont be right. I think there are few that really know how to read a plug or have the tools. really I don't pay much attention to the fuel ring on a N/A motor you can see what you need on the base ring in most cases.I know the boosted cars pay a lot more attention to that. and also I have found the fastest way down the track is not good for a bracket racer. rich is not good for being consistent.I was just offered to use a LM2 from a friend on here. I'll get it when I get chance and see where mine is and if it compares to where I think it's at.I know mine is over rich on the idle and transition and should be mildly lean up top.don't care about cruise at all.

I totally agree with your method of plug reading. But without a clean neutral to check it out on top end your wasting your time for WOT readings. IMO

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 10:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

yep and how many people do you see that say they keep adding jet until the porcelain has tanned? little do they know they have probably fouled out the plug. it may still run but it wont be right. I think there are few that really know how to read a plug or have the tools. really I don't pay much attention to the fuel ring on a N/A motor you can see what you need on the base ring in most cases.I know the boosted cars pay a lot more attention to that. and also I have found the fastest way down the track is not good for a bracket racer. rich is not good for being consistent.I was just offered to use a LM2 from a friend on here. I'll get it when I get chance and see where mine is and if it compares to where I think it's at.I know mine is over rich on the idle and transition and should be mildly lean up top.don't care about cruise at all.

I totally agree with your method of plug reading. But without a clean neutral to check it out on top end your wasting your time for WOT readings. IMO

exactly take a look at the video I posted and see what the first thing they say

and it's not MY method just the way I was taught and what I believe.

Posted By: Hot 340

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/03/11 10:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

READ CAREFULLY ABOUT USING THE PORCELAIN TO READ JETTING AND READ THE LAST SENTENCE ABOUT POPPING THROUGH THE EXHAUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I actually experienced that back when I was 17.....Put a fresh motor in the car and it ran great (at least I thought it was great) on the street and at the track.....I then uncapped the exhuast and the car picked up from 13.20's @ 100 to 12.70@ 105..........after racing I capped it back up and drove home......I get almost home and decided to hammer on it and it had a slip pop out of the exhuast......it never crossed my mind that it was the plugs, so after changing valve springs and doing ALL kinds of other stuff, a friend suggested putting a fresh set of plugs in it...I told him they were new and had less than 30 miles on them.......I went ahead and did it and it fixed it!!! Freaked me out and learned a good lesson......Thing was, I knew it was rich because it'd picked up so much by uncapping the exhaust.....

yep and how many people do you see that say they keep adding jet until the porcelain has tanned? little do they know they have probably fouled out the plug. it may still run but it wont be right. I think there are few that really know how to read a plug or have the tools. really I don't pay much attention to the fuel ring on a N/A motor you can see what you need on the base ring in most cases.I know the boosted cars pay a lot more attention to that. and also I have found the fastest way down the track is not good for a bracket racer. rich is not good for being consistent.I was just offered to use a LM2 from a friend on here. I'll get it when I get chance and see where mine is and if it compares to where I think it's at.I know mine is over rich on the idle and transition and should be mildly lean up top.don't care about cruise at all.

I totally agree with your method of plug reading. But without a clean neutral to check it out on top end your wasting your time for WOT readings. IMO

exactly take a look at the video I posted and see what the first thing they say and it's not MY method just the way I was taught and what I believe.

OK, didnt see the vid..duh.

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/09/11 07:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

its amazing your car can even run without one let alone drive a couple hours to the track, run a 10.50 @3700lbs and drive home

How is that so amazing?

just making a point that you obviously pay attention to how your car is running to run as well as it does. IMO experience with the wideband, it will not show lean cylinder to rich cylinders. my six pack has jetting all over the place. i do what i have to do to make all cylinders look equal. a wideband just wont tell you that unless you have bungs in all cylinders.

as for guys washing down cylinder walls, sure, i know many bracket racers that slap something together and as long as they can run consistantly thats all they care about. that makes me crazy. puffing black smoke driving around the pits and they dont care. then i see other guys times pickup as the weather gets hotter because there car is so lean.

i'm not saying not to have one, i have one in my car and its ON every time i go for a drive. but can it fine tune a crossram or tunnel ram? it may help a little but you wont get your tune right unless you look at plugs. if you only use an wideband to tune, you could have lean cyl and rich cyl and not know what is going on at all

Hey Ray.....On your Six Pack, is that a factory intake? 7MPH is like 100HP from just changing the front jets!!!.....

I'm trying to figure this out in my head.....

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/09/11 07:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

its amazing your car can even run without one let alone drive a couple hours to the track, run a 10.50 @3700lbs and drive home

How is that so amazing?

just making a point that you obviously pay attention to how your car is running to run as well as it does. IMO experience with the wideband, it will not show lean cylinder to rich cylinders. my six pack has jetting all over the place. i do what i have to do to make all cylinders look equal. a wideband just wont tell you that unless you have bungs in all cylinders.

as for guys washing down cylinder walls, sure, i know many bracket racers that slap something together and as long as they can run consistantly thats all they care about. that makes me crazy. puffing black smoke driving around the pits and they dont care. then i see other guys times pickup as the weather gets hotter because there car is so lean.

i'm not saying not to have one, i have one in my car and its ON every time i go for a drive. but can it fine tune a crossram or tunnel ram? it may help a little but you wont get your tune right unless you look at plugs. if you only use an wideband to tune, you could have lean cyl and rich cyl and not know what is going on at all

Hey Ray.....On your Six Pack, is that a factory intake? 7MPH is like 100HP from just changing the front jets!!!..... I'm trying to figure this out in my head.....

no that was on the sheetmetal ram i had at the time. the stock intake was jetted all over the place in line with the DC manual jetting tips. the weiand xram was also jetted all over the place with dams glued to the floor.

my point was just dont hold that AF meter as gospel to what is actually going on. a Six pack is the worst but we also have heard stories about indy single planes with number 1 wet plugs

Posted By: BradH

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/09/11 07:56 PM

Quote:

... we also have heard stories about indy single planes with number 1 wet plugs

Sounds like a Vietnamese hooker's complaint: "Go way! You number one wet plug!"

Hey, I started this thread, I can say that... right?

Posted By: Big Squeeze

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/10/11 01:50 AM

Quote:

no that was on the sheetmetal ram i had at the time. the stock intake was jetted all over the place in line with the DC manual jetting tips. the weiand xram was also jetted all over the place with dams glued to the floor.

my point was just dont hold that AF meter as gospel to what is actually going on. a Six pack is the worst but we also have heard stories about indy single planes with number 1 wet plugs

Cool....I was picturing a stock intake.....was wondering if any of the FAST guys have experimented.....

On the stock intake with the DC jetting, were the plugs all in line??

You don't happen to know the jetting, do you? I've never even seen one of those manuals, but I know what you're talking about.......

Posted By: dannysbee

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/10/11 03:07 AM

http://www.mopar1.us/6barreltips.html Here you go Wayne.

Posted By: farmboy70

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/10/11 05:24 AM

I was thinking of buying one of the kits. Which one would be the best? A dual or single kit?
My car has x pipe exhaust.
Tuning is not my strong suit.
This is for street tuning on a 472 Hemi.
Thanks
Dave

Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/10/11 08:01 PM

I like my LM-2 single but a dual wasn't in the budget at the time or I'd have gone that way. I got a new sensor at Orally's Auto Parts for $52 recently. I primarily use it at the track in my Barracuda but now have bungs in just about every car. I thought I had my Demon (Thermoquad) dialed in perfectly (it ran and drove great) but the WB showed room for improvement. After a little tweaking the car runs smoother and uses less fuel and is even more responsive. I also used the LM-2 to diagnose an OBDII car recently and cleared the fault code with it.

Quote:

I was thinking of buying one of the kits. Which one would be the best? A dual or single kit?
My car has x pipe exhaust.
Tuning is not my strong suit.
This is for street tuning on a 472 Hemi.
Thanks
Dave

Posted By: BIGSPEED

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/11/11 10:03 PM

We have our engine dyno equipted with wideband o2 on each cylinder,this allows us to get data on intake traffic and to make necessary adjustments,many of our customers have individual cylinder O2 in the car headers to make in car g force and air scoop related adjustments,we hardly use the EGT as they would throw us curves,Wideband is the way to go.Bill C.

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/15/11 03:18 AM

Quote:

Yes. Actually the peak was made a little richer with a smaller air bleed, flattened out the fuel curve, might have hampered the emulsion a little at the lower RPM's to lean it that ended up being good. I had considered changing it before leaving the house as my Racepak O2's showed the same, but figured the car had run so well at the track we would make the first pull as it came off my car. Plugs and MPH are the best way to make major changes, the O2's can show little details to help the fine tuning.Mark Whitener

if this interests you then this is a good thread

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27500&start=705

Posted By: BradH

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/15/11 07:10 PM

For those of you w/ in-car systems, how many use Innovate's LM-2? I didn't realize they had a "mixed" reputation for reliability & performance until after I purchased mine (and was unable to return it) a couple of years ago. I've been tempted on occasion to hunt up a now-discontinued LM-1, which seems to be relatively fool-proof, although not as sophisticated.

Posted By: 69dart

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/16/11 02:40 AM

I've got an Innovate LM-1 Air/Fuel Ratio Meter Kit that I no longer need and would like to sell.

I made about 20 passes on E85 so the O2 sensor still works fine, still has blue protective sheet on the screen

Here's a link to the kit http://focus.c-f-m.com/freeshippinginnovatelm-1airfuelratiometerkit.aspx

New its still $349

I'd like to get $220 out of it. PM me if interested.

Posted By: farmboy70

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/16/11 03:19 AM

Quote:

I've got an Innovate LM-1 Air/Fuel Ratio Meter Kit that I no longer need and would like to sell.

I made about 20 passes on E85 so the O2 sensor still works fine, still has blue protective sheet on the screen

Here's a link to the kit http://focus.c-f-m.com/freeshippinginnovatelm-1airfuelratiometerkit.aspx

New its still $349

I'd like to get $220 out of it. PM me if interested.

I ordered one yesterday

Oh well

Posted By: dmking

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/16/11 03:59 AM

well i have a wego3 wide band and datalogger. it is the size of a credit card with a afr display on the front of it for viewing live at no extra cost like inovate seems to have addons.

i had a friend with a lm-1. now he has a wego3 also.

i got it for tuneing the injection on my zx12 ninja watching afr,rpm,manifold inlet pressure.

since it is small (not like the huge LM1 pos) it moves from car to bike to truck with ease.

first time on my car i noticed i leave the line at 15 to 1 and cross at 12.4 to 1. seems i go over 100mph and it starts to richen up bad.
with out watching this and viewing my runs shaking down the car doing the plug thing at the end of the track i was horible lean in the front part of the track.

it shown what the accelerator pump shot is doing (or not doing LOL )

it was very helpfull for lupo to restall my converter after the new motor had it flashing to 5800 rpms. he could see the print out of the whole run with shift points and launch arc.

so it is good for more than just carb work. it told me my float bowls were getting pressurized at speed. gives converter data. and above all it lets you know where you are at jetting wise and pump shot wise.
yeah you can live with out it. but i did 3 months of tuneing in two weekends. then lean it out or make it phat and see where it gets it best mph and make sure you are around that afr.

for 430 bucks it has made life real easy. from my and my brothers cycle to a pulling/street truck (the power valve shows up big time on a holey) to my duster on race gas. if i go through a O2 sensor every 2 years it is worth the 75 bucks to me.

look up the wego3 they even make one with two afr channels for each pipe at the same time for the nascar guys LOL.and tech support was real good. i got 4 emails on the weekend with answeres to questions. two saturday and two sunday.

Attached picture 6969099-cecil1020run.JPG

Attached picture 6969099-cecil1020run.JPG

Posted By: dmking

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/16/11 04:02 AM

the above picture is a shot of my 10.20 run and what the afr was doing from the start to the end at 130mph. it is a nice simple usable tool with out 300 things to look at. just the basics for normal people. the third 0 to 5vdc i have not figured out what to use it for yet on the car.

Posted By: hooziewhatsit

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/16/11 05:34 AM

After reading this thread, and getting fed up chasing a hesitation in my truck, I decided to piece together an LM-1 off of fle-bay. I should be able to get everything, including the RPM converter, for ~$200

If you can get the LM-1 and the RPM converter from flebay, the O2 sensor and the other needed cables (power, O2 sensor, etc) are actually cheaper direct from Innovate.

Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/16/11 09:20 PM

Put me in the camp of 'WB saves time and gives instananeous info for tuning the transitions'.

For those of you that tune by going to the track or dyno, how would you do it if you didn't have a track or dyno nearby???

And I don't think this has been mentioned yet:
You can have a combo that runs really smooth, so there are no immediate clues to a 'bad' fuel curve. A WB can give you immediate insight into whether there is more potential that should be investigated.

Posted By: keefe

Re: How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning? - 12/17/11 01:02 AM

Quote:

For those of you w/ in-car systems, how many use Innovate's LM-2? I didn't realize they had a "mixed" reputation for reliability & performance until after I purchased mine (and was unable to return it) a couple of years ago. I've been tempted on occasion to hunt up a now-discontinued LM-1, which seems to be relatively fool-proof, although not as sophisticated.

May I ask which ones better LM-1 or the LM-2, I plan to get one in the near future? Car will eventually run on E-85.

Keefe

How beneficial has wide-band O2 been to your tuning?