Moparts

Street/strip 727- what fluid?

Posted By: I_bleed_MOPAR

Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 06:54 PM

Should be firing up the Charger by next weekend and need fluid for the trans. Years back when I had my last 727, I ran B&M Trick Shift in it. An acquaintance at that time used to work for B&M and told me their fluid was just Type F w/ a couple of additives and blue coloring. Should I stick w/ Dexron, Type F, or go with an aftermarket fluid? Tried the Google search here- seems most times the question came up on the Q&A board and got a variety of answers. What says the Race board?


Tim
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 06:59 PM

Cheapo type F
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 07:02 PM

Quote:

Cheapo type F




Posted By: rickraw

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 07:07 PM

Posted By: Get-X

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 07:07 PM

Quote:

Cheapo type F




Posted By: Labratt

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 07:16 PM

What they all said!
Posted By: Chris2581

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 07:46 PM

Wally Mart Type F here..works great.
Posted By: I_bleed_MOPAR

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 08:05 PM

Looks like the experts agree.
Thanks.


Tim
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 08:07 PM

A quart of non detergent 30w and the remainder type F.
Posted By: BlueDart

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/16/11 11:25 PM

A quart of non detergent 30w and the remainder type F.

Been doing this for years with very good results
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 02:04 AM

Well I guess I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice. I use synthetic fluid exclusively in all my stuff. It lasts longer, isn't affected by heat and will increase your stall speed about 300 rpm. Amsoil is probably as good as it gets but there are plenty of others including Mopar ATF+4. I use Hyundai SP III because I get it for free but it's just synthetic Dexron.

Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 03:00 AM

Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.



And I'll continue to use the cheap old stuff since
I still get 1.19 60' out of it... and my trans hasnt
been opened up in 4 years now



Posted By: Leigh

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 03:04 AM

Quote:

Well I guess I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice. I use synthetic fluid exclusively in all my stuff. It lasts longer, isn't affected by heat and will increase your stall speed about 300 rpm. Amsoil is probably as good as it gets but there are plenty of others including Mopar ATF+4. I use Hyundai SP III because I get it for free but it's just synthetic Dexron.

Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.



A couple of things. You do realize, that Amzoil synthetic atf mimicks Type F.
And, 00232-19012 SP111 is spendy in quart bottles. Around $4.50 per qt. cost (I'm a Hyundai Parts Manager). If you get it free, kudos. I know I wouldn't buy it, with all the other choices.
Posted By: ccarson

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 01:27 PM

When I went to pick up my Transmission, before I walked out the door my Transmission Builder handed me a case of Motorcraft Type F, He just said 'this is what I use"
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 02:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well I guess I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice. I use synthetic fluid exclusively in all my stuff. It lasts longer, isn't affected by heat and will increase your stall speed about 300 rpm. Amsoil is probably as good as it gets but there are plenty of others including Mopar ATF+4. I use Hyundai SP III because I get it for free but it's just synthetic Dexron.

Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.



A couple of things. You do realize, that Amzoil synthetic atf mimicks Type F.
And, 00232-19012 SP111 is spendy in quart bottles. Around $4.50 per qt. cost (I'm a Hyundai Parts Manager). If you get it free, kudos. I know I wouldn't buy it, with all the other choices.



Yeah I wouldn't buy it either but hey, the price is right.

Amsoil makes several different types of ATF, but I know it lasts a long time. The altered I drove has had Amsoil in it's PG for 5 years and it is still good. Many guys tell me that mineral Dexron lasts about 15 passes in their glides.
Posted By: formula S

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 02:16 PM

Type F at walmart is 1.27 a quart
Posted By: formula S

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 02:25 PM

Quote:

Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.

So its Perfect for a 50 year old design torqueflite. B&M fluid is type F
Posted By: 71cuda

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 02:56 PM

i use synthetic fluid atf+4.in both my cars.9sec duster and 11 sec street strip duster.i think it depends on how much you race it.i run 2 classes,14-15 runs in a day.later rounds back to back.i foot brake and it seems my launch rpm stays does not vary as much when the trans is hot with synthetic fluid .
i have over $1000 in my transmission $4.00 a quart is not that big of a deal.
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 03:10 PM

Quote:

i use synthetic fluid atf+4.in both my cars.9sec duster and 11 sec street strip duster.i think it depends on how much you race it.i run 2 classes,14-15 runs in a day.later rounds back to back.i foot brake and it seems my launch rpm stays does not vary as much when the trans is hot with synthetic fluid .
i have over $1000 in my transmission $4.00 a quart is not that big of a deal.



Exactly, $1000 for a torque converter, $700 for a valve body, not to mention good clutches, steels and bands and you're going to cheap out on the fluid? Doesn't make sense.
Posted By: Get-X

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 03:50 PM

Quote:

Quote:

i use synthetic fluid atf+4.in both my cars.9sec duster and 11 sec street strip duster.i think it depends on how much you race it.i run 2 classes,14-15 runs in a day.later rounds back to back.i foot brake and it seems my launch rpm stays does not vary as much when the trans is hot with synthetic fluid .
i have over $1000 in my transmission $4.00 a quart is not that big of a deal.



Exactly, $1000 for a torque converter, $700 for a valve body, not to mention good clutches, steels and bands and you're going to cheap out on the fluid? Doesn't make sense.



For me it's not "cheaping out" as much as it's using what's proven to be a reliable fluid for 727s for 30 years for me. I don't ever remember a trans failure related to using type f in a 727. I do however acknowledge the fact that dino oil viscosity will be less stable with temperature swings than synthetics so the stall speed argument has some merit.
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 03:58 PM

Quote:



Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.



As I said before, I use a qt of n/d 30w with the remainder type F. The reason for the oil is trans fluid is primarily a hydraulic oil with friction modifiers, and is a poor lubricant. I use type F because I feel that it has the best friction modifier package. As to the 40 year old tech, the material on a new set clutch discs and bands for a 904/727 shouldn't be the same as what is spec'ed for a new 6 speed auto, so why would you use fluid designed for the new lining material?
Posted By: PorkyPig

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 04:08 PM

Quote:

Well I guess I'm going to be the lone dissenting voice. I use synthetic fluid exclusively in all my stuff.


Nope. I use a "hideously overpriced" synthetic Type F fluid because of the heat from running a 4200 converter on the street and driving to the track. When I had my trans freshened up after about 5000 miles and close to 200 passes, the rebuilder commented on how good everything inside looked.
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 04:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:



Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.



As I said before, I use a qt of n/d 30w with the remainder type F. The reason for the oil is trans fluid is primarily a hydraulic oil with friction modifiers, and is a poor lubricant. I use type F because I feel that it has the best friction modifier package. As to the 40 year old tech, the material on a new set clutch discs and bands for a 904/727 shouldn't be the same as what is spec'ed for a new 6 speed auto, so why would you use fluid designed for the new lining material?



I'm glad that works for you but you won't catch me pouring engine oil of any kind into any trans I own or build. Engine oil is not formulated to take the heat an automatic trans can produce. It starts to break down pretty fast.
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 04:47 PM

I guess in some ways, it is a question of which is a bigger band aid - having to run high temp fluid because you don't have the proper cooler, or having to install more cooler because you want to run cheaper fluid.

I can use type F because I have a properly sized cooler and enough air flow to keep my trans temps in order. I will say this - if I was running a car that I couldn't do that, say a resto where I couldn't add an external cooler, I'd consider running the synthetic stuff for the higher temp protection.
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 04:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.



As I said before, I use a qt of n/d 30w with the remainder type F. The reason for the oil is trans fluid is primarily a hydraulic oil with friction modifiers, and is a poor lubricant. I use type F because I feel that it has the best friction modifier package. As to the 40 year old tech, the material on a new set clutch discs and bands for a 904/727 shouldn't be the same as what is spec'ed for a new 6 speed auto, so why would you use fluid designed for the new lining material?



I'm glad that works for you but you won't catch me pouring engine oil of any kind into any trans I own or build. Engine oil is not formulated to take the heat an automatic trans can produce. It starts to break down pretty fast.



First, the lube reduces friction in the planetaries, reducing temps. Yes, I realize most of the heat is from the converter and front pump, which also benefit from better lubricity. And second, if your trans is running temps that cooks motor oil, it won't last anyways. I keep my trans temps in the 140-150 range, which is well into the range of motor oil.
Posted By: Evil Spirit

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 05:01 PM

Another "scratch your head and ponder" - some people use hydraulic fluid, with a qt of tranny fluid added so you can see the fluid on the stick. My issue is the lack of friction modifiers, but I watched a buddy rip apart his race trans for inspection that looked spotless after using this fluid.
Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 06:16 PM

Quote:

Another "scratch your head and ponder" - some people use hydraulic fluid, with a qt of tranny fluid added so you can see the fluid on the stick. My issue is the lack of friction modifiers, but I watched a buddy rip apart his race trans for inspection that looked spotless after using this fluid.



I've heard this also but I'm not going to do it. There is a lot of engineering that went into ATF, I'm not throwing that away for hydraulic oil. As I've said before farm implement lubricants have no place in a race car. But to each their own.

Oh and, I don't use a cooler.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 06:29 PM

I use ATF+4 with Molley slip additive from Pat over at SMR tranny.

Been working well when I had an auto car.

I like the additive in overdrives mostly, saved the output shaft and output shaft bushing that is basiclly an aluminum housing without a bushing. Common failure spot for any 727 based OD mopar.

Kasey
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 06:31 PM

Quote:

Type F is a friction modified fluid Ford had to use because their transmission clutch packs wouldn't hold. It's really not a viable fluid with todays materials, it's 40 year old technology that has past it's usefulness.



And I'll continue to use the cheap old stuff since
I still get 1.19 60' out of it... and my trans hasnt
been opened up in 4 years now

The real reason was Fords used to use paper clutched, and the friction modified fluid would make the clutches work rather than smoke.

And there is nothing wrong with it in a mopar. Makes the clutched hold better.

Kasey




Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 06:39 PM

Quote:

The real reason was Fords used to use paper clutched, and the friction modified fluid would make the clutches work rather than smoke.

And there is nothing wrong with it in a mopar. Makes the clutched hold better.

Kasey








Isn't that what I said?

As far using it anything else, I won't. You can if you want to.
Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 08:57 PM

I guess you said their clutches wouldnt hold regular ATF, and didnt specify why, being made of paper, I just specified that part I guess.

Posted By: Allan_G

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/17/11 11:32 PM

While this doesn't exactly answer the OP's question, I'll throw this in since we're talking so much about synthetics. At a seminar in Indy several years ago, maybe '03?, I asked Rick Allison how he felt about synthetic ATF. Without naming brands or types, he generalized that synthetics were a good idea, EXCEPT for aluminum drums. For some reason, he said, he sees a lot more wear on these drums with synthetics. Again, this was several years ago, and formulations may have improved to where this is no longer an issue.

For me, I wasn't running aluminum, so I sprung for some Redline synhetic when I had a new trans built. A little high on the price, sure, but I looked at it as insurance. Hope you don't need it but got it if you do. I also drove the Duster on the street a bunch back then, and when I last sent my TA 4200 in for inspection (from running in the old trans with conventional Type F), Paul Forte told me that it showed signs of getting fairly hot. I also installed a better cooler, but decided to get a little extra peace of mind with the Redline.

EDIT: BTW, don't get me wrong. I have nothing against conventional Type F and would have no problem using it in other situations.
-Allan
Posted By: WHITEDART

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/18/11 12:20 AM

motor oil in the trans is used often in high horse power stuff as much as 50-50 but not really needed in lower hp cars like most of us guys
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/18/11 12:36 AM

I had a mild 440 in my 'Cuda and built a 727 for it using the Transtar kit with Raybestos clutches and a TransGo TF-2 shift kit. I also used the cheapest Wal-Mart sourced Type-F fluid I could get my hands on.

I beat the snot out of that transmission doing block long smokey burnouts with it and lots of time idling in traffic. I didn't cut it any slack.

I pulled apart the transmission about 8 years after building it since I sold the car to a friend and he was replacing the 440 with a stroked Hemi.

The clutches looked brand new and there was virtually no wear anywhere in the transmission. Even the "Raybestos" logo and the date code were clearly visible on the clutches!

Some times more expensive isn't always better..
Posted By: formula S

Re: Street/strip 727- what fluid? - 10/22/11 06:02 AM

Quote:

I had a mild 440 in my 'Cuda and built a 727 for it using the Transtar kit with Raybestos clutches and a TransGo TF-2 shift kit. I also used the cheapest Wal-Mart sourced Type-F fluid I could get my hands on.

I beat the snot out of that transmission doing block long smokey burnouts with it and lots of time idling in traffic. I didn't cut it any slack.

I pulled apart the transmission about 8 years after building it since I sold the car to a friend and he was replacing the 440 with a stroked Hemi.

The clutches looked brand new and there was virtually no wear anywhere in the transmission. Even the "Raybestos" logo and the date code were clearly visible on the clutches!

Some times more expensive isn't always better..

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