Gapless rings??

Posted By: quick77rt

Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 02:44 AM

At what point are gapless rings practicle? needed?

Im working on a X block build with good slugs approx 12.8 and some very good machine work and thick walls for good sealing and am trying to justify the price.

Also if it were a street strip car whats the life span of such rings..no spray.

Thanks

Posted By: HPMike

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 02:55 AM

I build a lot of engines and yep, I tried them-once. I had the same problem everyone else did. I am of the opinion that some combustion pressure helps push oil back away from the top of the piston and combustion chamber. Took them out, made no other changes and picked up a bunch on the dyno. I followed EVERYTHING right to the letter, as outlined by the mfg. Engine shop that I dyno engines had the exact same problem and they won't build an engine with them, even if the customer requests.

You results may vary...

MB

Posted By: dOrk !

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 03:12 AM

They are famous(I hear) for ring "flutter".

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 04:19 AM

They were designed for DIRT track cars that ate lots of dirt--that pesky stuff that wears engines out quick! You should NEVER use them unless you are running dirt track --no kidding but....since they are in the catalog...they get bought..as if that means you MUST need them. Follow your trusted engine builders advice

Posted By: hemidup

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 04:28 AM

Used them on 2 street motors. Never again.

Posted By: supercomp

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 02:56 PM

Gapless top rings work ok but not on the second.

Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 03:26 PM

I helpped a guy with a 347 sbf, and that thing never ran decent, always seemed to use oil, after he went through it the 2nd season, he put standard childs rings in it, and it ran soooo much better. Oil consumption wasnt an issue either anymore. They seem to be a pain to seat properly.

Kasey

Posted By: Mopar_Rich

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 03:36 PM

Some builders claim that this traps gas between the rings, which rattles them, causing them to loose seal. Others say that the engine is more consistent with these rings. Engines I have built using gapless rings have a very consistent leak down after many miles and passes on the strip, and I have also measured a net improvement in performance on the dyno.

So why don't builders use them? Many builders either don't ask or simply ignore all the recommended steps.

Use a gapless ring only for the top ring. Reverse torsional twist second rings have been the industry standard for years, but with gapless rings you should use the tapered hook groove or Napier second ring. This type of ring acts like a check valve to relieve combustion pressure under the top ring. But (there's always a but) this ring technology requires a special hone finish that�s much smoother than the usual hone job. It's called a "Plateau Hone. If you are thinking of using this type of ring, talk to the ring supplier and your machinist, and make sure he can do the level of hone that you need. It's a lot of work and stone changing on the CK10 that many machinists hate. Gapless rings work great if you implement them correctly.

Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 03:43 PM

THANKS! for all the good replies, I know at one time many thought they were the big great thing, I actually sold a new drag race short block with the old std rings and these guys swore they needed to pull the rings and go gapless....talked zero leakdown or somthing like that.

These replies seem to sum up a good old set of plasma/moly will work fine and save a wad of $$$.

Just goes to show, the higher the cost isnt always the best part or way to go.

As posted they seem to have there place but not in this build

Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 03:55 PM

Quote:

Some builders claim that this traps gas between the rings, which rattles them, causing them to loose seal. Others say that the engine is more consistent with these rings. Engines I have built using gapless rings have a very consistent leak down after many miles and passes on the strip, and I have also measured a net improvement in performance on the dyno.

So why don't builders use them? Many builders either don't ask or simply ignore all the recommended steps.

Use a gapless ring only for the top ring. Reverse torsional twist second rings have been the industry standard for years, but with gapless rings you should use the tapered hook groove or Napier second ring. This type of ring acts like a check valve to relieve combustion pressure under the top ring. But (there's always a but) this ring technology requires a special hone finish that�s much smoother than the usual hone job. It's called a "Plateau Hone. If you are thinking of using this type of ring, talk to the ring supplier and your machinist, and make sure he can do the level of hone that you need. It's a lot of work and stone changing on the CK10 that many machinists hate. Gapless rings work great if you implement them correctly.

I remember calling Total seal, and talking with them on the 347, they didnt mention to us about any special honeing, but that makes sence now.

This engine was built a long time ago shortly after Total seal came out with them, and they were the buzz.

Kasey

Posted By: BradH

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 04:21 PM

I ran the C&A Z-Gap 2nd rings for a while (1998-2000). Then I switched to the Total Seal "Max Seal" "gapless" 1st rings for the last build. I'm not sold on them, either, and will be using conventional file-fit rings for my next (re)builds.

When I talked to the TS Tech rep recently, he said they'd seen a 10+ HP improvement w/ their "Max Seal" stuff. I told him I'd tried them and IMO the results were inconclusive... after that he didn't bother trying to up-sell me on them anymore.

Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 08:39 PM

I dont like the price, but I went with these...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TSR-CS3690-55/

In the past if its not been hellfire rings im used to $150 or less per set...probably should of just got some cheaper plasma rings.

Posted By: Mopar_Rich

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 09:24 PM

I assume you noticed that that's a standard tension ring set.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 09:48 PM

No street strip deal here, just a racer, but I wouldn't be without them. I've been using them exclusively for 10 years and have some of the most consistant ET's of anybody out there. Leakdown is 2% or less. I'm not one of those people that says leakdown is everything, but 2% beats 10-12% any day. And that's just an all out race deal with a GZ air pump and low tension oil rings. You make the decision for your application, but I think they are worth the money, for what I do.

Posted By: HPMike

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 10:46 PM

I wonder what Tony Bischoff thinks of gapless ring use. I can tell you what Ray Barton thinks!

Posted By: rickraw

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/10/11 11:06 PM

i run total seals. street-strip. 11.1 comp. no oil consumption, no blowby, installed as directed, no problems, just alot of go power. stay safe, seeya.

Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/11/11 12:03 AM

Yep I seen that

Just a good set. On this project its limited street/limited strip, limited miles.

Ive no doubts some people have had good results with gapless rings, ive heard too many good things about them but in this case it seems they are not ideal for this build.

Although the next time ive the 410 stroker out I got to clean the bores up and get some new slugs and might consider them then. So I will book mark this and maybe hit up some of you current gapless users.

Quote:

I assume you noticed that that's a standard tension ring set.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/11/11 12:48 AM

Snake oil always sells better than real snakes
If you could get 10 HP with rings alone they would be in every engine built on earth.

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Gapless rings?? - 10/11/11 02:20 AM

Quote:

Snake oil always sells better than real snakes
If you could get 10 HP with rings alone they would be in every engine built on earth.

not really. i think the cost keeps a lot of people from using them. i never liked the 2nd ring gapless after some experience with them. the top ring gaplerss rings do work, but if your not familier with the proper hone ra and break in required you'll have bad results.