Build me 850 HP in most economical package

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 12:56 PM

Cost of methanol has gotten out of hand. Best price
i have found is $175 for a barrel, or about $3.20 a gallon. At three passes out of a 5 gallon jug that adds up. Guys report getting about twice as many passes on E85, at about the same price? If I ran more races and had a tad less compression, I would switch. But at 15/1, I don't think E85 is going to work well.

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 01:05 PM

Quote:

Cost of methanol has gotten out of hand. Best price
i have found is $175 for a barrel, or about $3.20 a gallon. At three passes out of a 5 gallon jug that adds up. Guys report getting about twice as many passes on E85, at about the same price? If I ran more races and had a tad less compression, I would switch. But at 15/1, I don't think E85 is going to work well.

Might just be a geographic supply thing around here (E85) I haven't heard of anyone running it at any of our local tracks here in FLA......

Rickster

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 01:14 PM

Not that I'm qualified to answer this but wouldn't the easiest way to do it be to build a big cube wedge and boost it? You could probaby do it on pump gas and not need 4.88's. If I were going to build something in the HP range that's what'd I do.
Good luck.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 01:24 PM

Buy my aluminum 574 pump gas wedge ... It in the 11s compression only

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 01:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Cost of methanol has gotten out of hand. Best price
i have found is $175 for a barrel, or about $3.20 a gallon. At three passes out of a 5 gallon jug that adds up. Guys report getting about twice as many passes on E85, at about the same price? If I ran more races and had a tad less compression, I would switch. But at 15/1, I don't think E85 is going to work well.

Might just be a geographic supply thing around here (E85) I haven't heard of anyone running it at any of our local tracks here in FLA......

Rickster

E85 isn't readily available in Florida because of the humidity. As we all know alcohol sucks the moisture out of the air so there are problems with storing E85 around here. I'd love to run it but it's just not practical here.

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 01:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would like to maintain low compression if possible, pump gas mix/ E85.

Pump gas makes the 850 goal more difficult. E85 also adds cost unless you already have a fuel system that is designed for it. I'd really think hard about the fuel choice before you get to far into the engine design.

im curiouse to why 850hp would be hard,when higher compression bb's make 1100 to 1200hp comp bump of 3 pts shouldn't be a 400 or 500 hp increase

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 03:06 PM

Here in Mich we have PLENTY of humidity and I havent
had a problem at all with E-85... I keep it in steel
drums in the shop and transfer what I want for the
weekend... I have a smaller drum in the trailer....
I test the fuel before I buy it at the local Meier
store... its ALWAYS between 85%-86%... car is very
consistent

Posted By: bwdst6

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 05:03 PM

Quote:

im curiouse to why 850hp would be hard,when higher compression bb's make 1100 to 1200hp comp bump of 3 pts shouldn't be a 400 or 500 hp increase

I had the exact same thought. 850 hp should be easy with a 572"+ engine!

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 05:09 PM

why not a supercharged gen3 hemi? i think they could make enough power with relative ease and shouldnt be to hard on the wallet.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 05:56 PM

Take a 440HP block and bore it .030 over
TRW pop up pistons
stock stroke HP crank
6 pac rods with direct connection bolts
590 purple shaft cam
906 heads (ported to the max)
AFB carb
Dyno engine. CORRECT the air to whatever you want.
800+ horsepower
Just never take it to the track or it will just be another 800+ DYNO HP engine that we read about everyday that only runs 10's.

Posted By: Dabee

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 06:26 PM

Quote:

Take a 440HP block and bore it .030 over
TRW pop up pistons
stock stroke HP crank
6 pac rods with direct connection bolts
590 purple shaft cam
906 heads (ported to the max)
AFB carb
Dyno engine. CORRECT the air to whatever you want.
800+ horsepower
Just never take it to the track or it will just be another 800+ DYNO HP engine that we read about everyday that only runs 10's.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 06:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

im curiouse to why 850hp would be hard,when higher compression bb's make 1100 to 1200hp comp bump of 3 pts shouldn't be a 400 or 500 hp increase

I had the exact same thought. 850 hp should be easy with a 572"+ engine!

Take a look at the Indy crate engines. Their 605 inch pump gas motors make 750 hp. Their 572 race gas motors make 900+ hp.

The aftermarket business is primarily focused on building race gas type parts so that is the easiest (cheapest) way to go. The OP asked for 850 HP in the most economical package. A race gas engine would be the most economical package. 572 cubes, -1 heads, cast intake with a Dominator carb, 14:1 compression, solid roller, etc. That would be the way to make 850 hp. Probably cost about $20,000 with new parts.

Posted By: LUMI

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 07:01 PM

do it like my engine has been done

Venolia 4.5 pistons, Callies 4.77 Crank, 6.8" H beam Rods, Koleno KP440 Block, out of the box Koffel B1 Original Heads, B1 intake, 1050 Holley Dominator, Crane Mec Roller 320/328deg 114 disp angle int .79 ex .76 with 1.7 ratio, CR10.69

dynoed at Koffels Place and with Shell 93 Octane Pump fuel

Posted By: Old School

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 07:24 PM

Quote:

do it like my engine has been done

Venolia 4.5 pistons, Callies 4.77 Crank, 6.8" H beam Rods, Koleno KP440 Block, out of the box Koffel B1 Original Heads, B1 intake, 1050 Holley Dominator, Crane Mec Roller 320/328deg 114 disp angle int .79 ex .76 with 1.7 ratio, CR10.69

dynoed at Koffels Place and with Shell 93 Octane Pump fuel

thats what im talking about....

Posted By: RemCharger

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 07:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

do it like my engine has been done

Venolia 4.5 pistons, Callies 4.77 Crank, 6.8" H beam Rods, Koleno KP440 Block, out of the box Koffel B1 Original Heads, B1 intake, 1050 Holley Dominator, Crane Mec Roller 320/328deg 114 disp angle int .79 ex .76 with 1.7 ratio, CR10.69

dynoed at Koffels Place and with Shell 93 Octane Pump fuel

thats what im talking about....

NICE!

Posted By: moparniac

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 07:38 PM

Quote:

do it like my engine has been done

Venolia 4.5 pistons, Callies 4.77 Crank, 6.8" H beam Rods, Koleno KP440 Block, out of the box Koffel B1 Original Heads, B1 intake, 1050 Holley Dominator, Crane Mec Roller 320/328deg 114 disp angle int .79 ex .76 with 1.7 ratio, CR10.69

dynoed at Koffels Place and with Shell 93 Octane Pump fuel

10.69 to 1 and unported B1 originals making 942HP... hmmmmm

Posted By: LUMI

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 07:42 PM

well i dont know how optimistic Koffels dyno is

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 07:52 PM

Quote:

well i dont know how optimistic Koffels dyno is

All I ask to see is the time slip.

Posted By: BlownHemiCharger

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 07:55 PM

World Products aluminum block

Eagle crank - 4340 Material, Part number 444242507100
Eagle H-Beam Rods with L19 Bolts - Part # CRS7100C3DL19
Arias Pistons - 4.500 Bore, 1.480 Compression Ht., .990 wristpins, 8 : 1 Compression Ratio w/ 170cc Heads
Stage V Aluminum Big Valve Heads
Stage V Rocker arms
Dyers 8-71 blower, polished
Dual Holley carbs

Comp Cams Hemi hydraulic roller 258/266
Comp Cams 8921 hydraulic roller lifters

Milidon oil pan
Melling M63HV oil pump

Clevite MS-1277HG Main Bearings
Clevite CB743HXN Rod Bearings
ProSport SFI 18.1 Internally balanced Damper
SA Gear Roller Timing Chain
MSD "Ready to Run" Distributor
MSD Blaster 2 coil
MSD 31289 Plug wires

Fel Pro Head Gaskets #1104
Fel Pro Intake Gaskets #1234
Fel Pro Exhaust Gaskets #1462
Fel Pro Rear Main Seal #2947

Going to be at 950HP+. Being built out of Idaho Falls, Idaho!

Posted By: LUMI

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 08:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

well i dont know how optimistic Koffels dyno is

All I ask to see is the time slip.

well this motor is not yet running in my Charger, i bought it used from Holland

and soon we have snow here so it will be next summer

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 08:13 PM

i remember muscle motors had a BIG ci 600+ inches made well over 900hp and tq was crazy for like 18g's PUMP GASSER...dont know if anyone bought one,but from reading about it,it sounded nasty.

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 08:43 PM

Race W5 small block with ~ 4.125 or larger bore and a 3.79" stroke. 6.25 or 6.300 rod, Turbo on methanol. And you wouldn't need stupid amounts of boost or high rpm to do it. The real trick will be convincing yourself to not chase the

and limit yourself to 850 horse. In a light car as you describe a big cube, mother torque big block can be tougher to hook consistently than a spooled small block.

Posted By: BryanRad

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/06/11 11:11 PM

I would seriously consider building with the mindset of being able to upgrade the package in the future, ie. camshaft, compression, head porting, etc. We're all human, you will want to go faster at some point most likely.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 01:04 AM

I agree with GregsDart.
That is the post I would make.

Any of the various fuels can do it. I like either alky or E85 and a Ron's injection system makes the switch between the two easy. Not to mention it is a great system.

I will add is that the cost of an aluminum (KB) block is not that big a deal. And the weight distribution will help your chassis setup big time. And all you need with 572 CID is 4.10 gear.

Posted By: tjmarcus1

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 02:28 AM

WOW! i'm thinking where is the respect for BG? he's the builder, right? the thought of this entire thread should be taken up with him..............

Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 02:47 AM

Quote:

WOW! i'm thinking where is the respect for BG? he's the builder, right? the thought of this entire thread should be taken up with him..............

That is a low blow, read the beginning. Not knowing much about BB builds I am trying to learn as much as possible so I can speak intelligently about the build.

Posted By: tjmarcus1

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 03:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

WOW! i'm thinking where is the respect for BG? he's the builder, right? the thought of this entire thread should be taken up with him..............

That is a low blow, read the beginning. Not knowing much about BB builds I am trying to learn as much as possible so I can speak intelligently about the build.

sorry, i didn't mean it to be a low blow. but, if you trust BG, don't you think you should be talking with him?

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 11:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

WOW! i'm thinking where is the respect for BG? he's the builder, right? the thought of this entire thread should be taken up with him..............

That is a low blow, read the beginning. Not knowing much about BB builds I am trying to learn as much as possible so I can speak intelligently about the build.

sorry, i didn't mean it to be a low blow. but, if you trust BG, don't you think you should be talking with him?

How about a li'l respect for Lonnie wanting to educate himself on Big Blocks before he talks to his builder.....I guess at least most on here understand his reason for this thread

Best of luck with it Lonnie

Rickster

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 01:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

WOW! i'm thinking where is the respect for BG? he's the builder, right? the thought of this entire thread should be taken up with him..............

That is a low blow, read the beginning. Not knowing much about BB builds I am trying to learn as much as possible so I can speak intelligently about the build.

sorry, i didn't mean it to be a low blow. but, if you trust BG, don't you think you should be talking with him?

How about a li'l respect for Lonnie wanting to educate himself on Big Blocks before he talks to his builder.....I guess at least most on here understand his reason for this thread

Best of luck with it Lonnie

Rickster

I know that Lonnie (as well as most of us) has the utmost respect for Bob George and his abilities. I won't bash anyone for educating themselves before making what is a very large investment.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 01:31 PM

No disrespect taken from Lonnies' post,he is asking for thoughts and opinions to educate himself on what others have done.As with Fred and others,we can discuss the build and options and the end result is that I will know what the racer wants and how to deliver them a engine or car that they want and will be happy with.It is better to have a relationship and have the owner involved from the start,then there are no surprises and everyones expectations are understood and accomplished.
Take Donny's blowen Hemi for example,The project started with a lot of information and fact finding and developing what would work and what was BS.We were told by many that we were starting with all the wrong parts and need many updates to stuff we had.After weeding through all the BS we found we had made the right choises and listened to the right people and the project came together.
We have a lot of people to thank for their imput,The folks at Indy for the engine and blower as well as the Lencodrive,many of the racers running menthonal blower cars and Mike Kosky(Top Alcohol Dragster)who helped setup and tune the injection and school us on this new combo.
It never hurts to kick ideas around as long as in the end you come up with a good solid game plan and excute that plan to a successful conclusion.
There is and always be some good information garnered on this website,you just have to wade through some crap and sort it out and not be discuraged buy some of the remarks.
That BGR built Lonnie's chassis and small block to his satisfaction,only reminds me that originally I wanted to put in a BB 499" and Lonnie's wish was to stay SB now maybe I get my wish.

Please remember this OP was Lonnie's asking for thoughts and not about BGR.

Respectfully Bob

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 01:34 PM

I think a Koleno low deck block at about 540" would fit the bill nicely at your race weight. To much torque might be a bad thing. All you would need is enough cyl head to support about 1.6 hp/ci. Easily done with a B1 original or even an Indy 440-1 head. Do yourself a favor and go to a terminator on alky and your car will be deadly with the glide. With your command of the tree, I will follow you around with the wheelbarrow to help haul the cash.

Posted By: Chad Bittle

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 01:49 PM

Quote:

I think a Koleno low deck block at about 540" would fit the bill nicely at your race weight. To much torque might be a bad thing. All you would need is enough cyl head to support about 1.6 hp/ci. Easily done with a B1 original or even an Indy 440-1 head. Do yourself a favor and go to a terminator on alky and your car will be deadly with the glide. With your command of the tree, I will follow you around with the wheelbarrow to help haul the cash.

I don't think alcohol would be good for lonnie....car will never be warm in time since he's usually running back from either sportsman, pro, no box, big wheel class, foot race event or tryin to remember where he put his dads tools.

Oh and Lonnie, we knew this day was coming, haha. Good luck with your new build.

Posted By: jyrki

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 01:50 PM

Quote:

i remember muscle motors had a BIG ci 600+ inches made well over 900hp and tq was crazy for like 18g's PUMP GASSER...dont know if anyone bought one,but from reading about it,it sounded nasty.

We have one coming together during the winter. It's not exactly their crate, the camshaft and CR are slightly bigger because of our 93 octane pump gas, and the heads are ported. It will be dynoed locally onve ready, I would be highly surprised to see it make 900 hp despite of the advertising. But if it does, I sure will be happy!

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/07/11 08:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think a Koleno low deck block at about 540" would fit the bill nicely at your race weight. To much torque might be a bad thing. All you would need is enough cyl head to support about 1.6 hp/ci. Easily done with a B1 original or even an Indy 440-1 head. Do yourself a favor and go to a terminator on alky and your car will be deadly with the glide. With your command of the tree, I will follow you around with the wheelbarrow to help haul the cash.

I don't think alcohol would be good for lonnie....car will never be warm in time since he's usually running back from either sportsman, pro, no box, big wheel class, foot race event or tryin to remember where he put his dads tools.

Oh and Lonnie, we knew this day was coming, haha. Good luck with your new build.

Just add their "primer plus" system and warm up is no problem and he can save some nickles on gas while idling thru the pits.

Posted By: coronetville

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 12:02 AM

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 04:15 AM

Quote:

Looking to step up to the 8.50's in 1/4 next season, not gonna do it with the small block. I believe 850 flywheel HP will get me there at 2650 lbs. Starting from scratch, how would you get there? Car will be BB, RB, with power glide and Dana 60 4.88 gear.

Does it weigh 2650# with the small block? If it does, you will be @ 2800# with the BB..

Wallace says 900 hp in perfect conditions, and drag coefficient..

IMO.. You are going to need close to 1000hp to do this. B1 MC's all the way and the biggest you can build....

If 8.50's were that easy in a Mopar.. A lot more guys would be doing it. Plus.... In bad conditions you'll need the extra hp.

Al Alguire's Barracuda just gets that 8.50 mark in 3500'- 4000' DA 2800 lbs. and his B1 MC (really actually) makes over 1000 hp.

Doesn't Fred's 588" barely run 8.50's with 2 Dominators..

You could always put a Rat Motor in it and go plenty fast...

I'm just saying.. It's not that simple..

You wanted something to think about..

Chris..

Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 04:50 AM

Quote:

Doesn't Fred's 588" barely run 8.50's with 2 Dominators..

It's an example of a build done for a variety of reasons besides power. The long list starts with longevity,reliability and low maintainance.
We can gain close to 40 HP with a better intake than the present5 cast.We need more plenum. It's running the same exact cam transplanted from one to another in my last three motors. A Crane R-396 ground in 1971 much smaller than it can take with only .730 lift. Probably could make 80 HP overall with a few changes.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 07:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Doesn't Fred's 588" barely run 8.50's with 2 Dominators..

It's an example of a build done for a variety of reasons besides power. The long list starts with longevity,reliability and low maintainance.
We can gain close to 40 HP with a better intake than the present5 cast.We need more plenum. It's running the same exact cam transplanted from one to another in my last three motors. A Crane R-396 ground in 1971 much smaller than it can take with only .730 lift. Probably could make 80 HP overall with a few changes.

Not disrespecting your combo Fred..

I'm merely pointing out that you can't just throw parts together and go 8.50's in a full bodied door car NA..

Like I said.. 8.50's is fast NA, and if it was easy, there would be a lot more guys doing it..

And it will take more than 850 HP to do it..

Quite a bit more..

Chris..

Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 07:48 AM

Quote:

Not disrespecting your combo Fred

NO I didn't take it that way. I wanted to point out that I could have made more with other parts but would have to trade off elsewhere.A build similar to mine on the mild side is better in that I am not on kill. To make that much power some combos will not survive as well. Large cubes, softer cam profiles are not to be overlooked.

Posted By: bwdst6

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 11:55 AM

Quote:

If 8.50's were that easy in a Mopar.. A lot more guys would be doing it.

More people don�t do it because they don�t have the money!

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 12:10 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If 8.50's were that easy in a Mopar.. A lot more guys would be doing it.

More people don�t do it because they don�t have the money!

8.50's in a door car and economical don't belong in the same sentence (especially Mopar powered)

Rickster

Posted By: vc360

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 12:41 PM

Pro Stock Hemi be different.

Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 04:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Looking to step up to the 8.50's in 1/4 next season, not gonna do it with the small block. I believe 850 flywheel HP will get me there at 2650 lbs. Starting from scratch, how would you get there? Car will be BB, RB, with power glide and Dana 60 4.88 gear.

Does it weigh 2650# with the small block? If it does, you will be @ 2800# with the BB..

Wallace says 900 hp in perfect conditions, and drag coefficient..

IMO.. You are going to need close to 1000hp to do this. B1 MC's all the way and the biggest you can build....

If 8.50's were that easy in a Mopar.. A lot more guys would be doing it. Plus.... In bad conditions you'll need the extra hp.

Al Alguire's Barracuda just gets that 8.50 mark in 3500'- 4000' DA 2800 lbs. and his B1 MC (really actually) makes over 1000 hp.

Doesn't Fred's 588" barely run 8.50's with 2 Dominators..

You could always put a Rat Motor in it and go plenty fast...

I'm just saying.. It's not that simple..

You wanted something to think about..

Chris..

That would be Perfect, cause then I do not need ballast for super street, the 8.50 was a guideline for ET, but I would be plenty satisfied with anything between 8.50-9.00 and somewhere in the 5.65-5.75 1/8th mile.

I think the aluminum block may be needed to not make weight go to high.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 04:38 PM

Give that aluminum BB consideration. Like I said about chassis balance. And remember the aftermarket cast iron blocks are heavier than the factory cast iron, so it can add a lot of weight, hence aluminum block.

I don't have exact numbers, but a new cast block is around 300 pounds $2900-$3900 (MP-Koleno) and the aluminum ones 140 pounds $5000.

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 04:39 PM

The aluminum block makes sense because you will have a similar weight distribution, may even need to add ballast to the front as opposed to trying to make a nose heavy car work.
Your last post said you are OK with an ET in the 8.998 to 8.50 range. That opens the door some! The heads you could use would be a well ported set of 440-1s,3x intake, 540 cubes 4.500 bore 4.25 stroke,terminator on methanol, Jesel rockers with 1.70 ratio, cam 283/288/110 in at 108 .775 to .800 intake lift, 15/1 compression with very small dome(i cut my heads to 62cc) 2 1/8 x 32 x 4 headers. Use a vacuum pump and .043 rings low ten oil, a good pan and this motor will take you to 8.80s on the bad days. I run 8.89 at 150 mph with a DA of 2200 ft at 3020 lbs with the same combo except 528 cubes using a 4.15 stroke. Run a 4.10 gear or 4.30 at the most, you won't need anything higher. A 4.10 will allow you to run a 14 x32 light weight Goodyear supergas tire, which should make the car faster. I am running a 40 lb 15.1 x 33.6 tire and it slows the car some.

Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 05:05 PM

Quote:

Give that aluminum BB consideration. Like I said about chassis balance. And remember the aftermarket cast iron blocks are heavier than the factory cast iron, so it can add a lot of weight, hence aluminum block.

I don't have exact numbers, but a new cast block is around 300 pounds $2900-$3900 (MP-Koleno) and the aluminum ones 140 pounds $5000.

your post got me thinking here.. lots of people think aluminumblocks are just way to expensive but looking at it like that makes me think it may be the cheapest way to loose 160lbs you can find

Posted By: BIG BEAR

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 06:49 PM

Quote:

do it like my engine has been done

Venolia 4.5 pistons, Callies 4.77 Crank, 6.8" H beam Rods, Koleno KP440 Block, out of the box Koffel B1 Original Heads, B1 intake, 1050 Holley Dominator, Crane Mec Roller 320/328deg 114 disp angle int .79 ex .76 with 1.7 ratio, CR10.69

dynoed at Koffels Place and with Shell 93 Octane Pump fuel

Hopefully she treats you well

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 07:20 PM

That seems like a good package. If it was me I'd go ahead and build a 572 since it wouldn't cost anymore money. Then use a flat top piston and you'll still be right at 14:1 or so. A 4.5 x 4.5 engine with flat top pistons and -1 heads should make excellent power and be fairly economical to build. All of the parts are off the shelf. There shouldn't be any problem making 850 to 900 hp with that package if the engine is built with some care.

Posted By: boatracer572

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 11:16 PM

Quote:

Looking to step up to the 8.50's in 1/4 next season, not gonna do it with the small block. I believe 850 flywheel HP will get me there at 2650 lbs. Starting from scratch, how would you get there? Car will be BB, RB, with power glide and Dana 60 4.88 gear.

540 CID (4.5 bore 4.25 stroke) unported predator heads, single 1050,solid flat tappet cam( non roller) will get u 850+ hp. And there is tons of room to grow.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 11:25 PM

Predators economical?

Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 11:56 PM

aluminum blocks weigh what 150 less but supposedly make less power on the plus side easily repairable and new sleeves a cinch to get done. larger return when selling.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/08/11 11:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Looking to step up to the 8.50's in 1/4 next season, not gonna do it with the small block. I believe 850 flywheel HP will get me there at 2650 lbs. Starting from scratch, how would you get there? Car will be BB, RB, with power glide and Dana 60 4.88 gear.

Does it weigh 2650# with the small block? If it does, you will be @ 2800# with the BB..

Wallace says 900 hp in perfect conditions, and drag coefficient..

IMO.. You are going to need close to 1000hp to do this. B1 MC's all the way and the biggest you can build....

If 8.50's were that easy in a Mopar.. A lot more guys would be doing it. Plus.... In bad conditions you'll need the extra hp.

Al Alguire's Barracuda just gets that 8.50 mark in 3500'- 4000' DA 2800 lbs. and his B1 MC (really actually) makes over 1000 hp.

Doesn't Fred's 588" barely run 8.50's with 2 Dominators..

You could always put a Rat Motor in it and go plenty fast...

I'm just saying.. It's not that simple..

You wanted something to think about..

Chris..

That would be Perfect, cause then I do not need ballast for super street, the 8.50 was a guideline for ET, but I would be plenty satisfied with anything between 8.50-9.00 and somewhere in the 5.65-5.75 1/8th mile. I think the aluminum block may be needed to not make weight go to high.

You'll most likely use the Indy block, as BG is a WD for them.. Not my first choice.. But better that World IMO.. KB is tops..

If you go B1's, (strongly recommend), Koffel has his sale starting in Nov. MC's included.

The bigger, the better on the motor, as you can keep the rpms down..

Doesn't cost any extra, if you don't go crazy..

My 540" B1 has gone 8.70's @ 153, 3000# over 2800' DA.. It dynoed @ 972hp on one dyno and 948hp on another..

Still working on converter.. Have 4 so far.. PG's are great once you find that magic converter..

I think Al is on #6 converter..

It's all fun though.. Going 10.90 @ over 150mph..

Chris..

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 12:16 AM

Quote:

That seems like a good package. If it was me I'd go ahead and build a 572 since it wouldn't cost anymore money. Then use a flat top piston and you'll still be right at 14:1 or so. A 4.5 x 4.5 engine with flat top pistons and -1 heads should make excellent power and be fairly economical to build. All of the parts are off the shelf. There shouldn't be any problem making 850 to 900 hp with that package if the engine is built with some care.

First of all, I don't want to step on any toes here, but why in the world would anybody use -1 heads when you are building something like this? The max HP, and I mean max is 850 with the -1 heads, and that's an exceptional -1 motor. And it doesn't cost that much more for B1 originals or even 572-13's, but it will cost more for the paired rockers and all of these parts are off the shelf too. Someone here even said they had a set for sale reasonable, and there's room to grow with the B1 head. A mildly ported set will make 850HP, and I mean a cleaned up port match and good valve job. And nobody I know that races is ever happy with what they start out to build. The Predator is a good choise too, but I don't know if you could keep them at 850HP. And the 572 makes sense because the cost is the same for a 4.500 stroke crank or 4.250. Now go ahead start telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and how -1's make 900+HP and flow 390cfm. I have used -1's, B1 originals, stage 6's, 452's and 906's steel heads and now predators. They all have their limits. But if you are absolutly sure you won't ever want more HP, then use the -1's and build a 540. Just sayin, nobody is ever satisfied, at least nobody I know.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:01 AM

The title of the post is economical so I assumed that ment he wanted to keep the price down. If he has a $30K budget then sure, step up the heads, add the aluminum block, add dry sump, etc. It is all good if the guy has the money. He never said what the budget is so most of this thread is just jibber jabber anyway.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:04 AM

There's no economical way to go 8.50's in a 2800# door car with a NA Mopar..

Unless you buy a used motor..

Chris..

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:16 AM

The problem is that the word economical is useless. Some people can't afford $50 entry fee to go racing, others buy a new truck and trailer every year just because they can.

So my assumption was that the guy was willing to spend $25,000 for a 850 HP motor. If his budget is bigger than that then sure, step up the heads, add the KB block, etc.

Now if he thinks he is going to make 850 hp for $10,000 then there is a disconnect.

Indy sells 900 hp crate motors so it is fairly easy to write a check and buy a bullet. Some of their crate engines use -1 heads, others use the 572 head. The -1 headed motors make 800+ hp so it is very much an option.

Posted By: boatracer572

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:34 AM

Quote:

Predators economical?

All this talk about aluminum blocks, portred B1s or indys and roller valve train in this thred dosent sound very economical eather? What your going to spend on the predators up front, you save on porting and roller valve train to meet the 850hp. goal.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:56 AM

Any engine that is new making 850HP, whether it's maxed out or has more potential is going to cost $20,000 with a steel block. You could build a 950HP, but the difference would be the quality of the parts, Eagle crank, eagle rods, comp lifters, etc. If you buy used, have some spare used parts, or are willing to buy used parts, you might save $5000 for something like that. But an aluminum block will be an additional $3500 after machine work. Oh....and I would say this is if you put it all together, no dyno, unless you know someone that is capable. Good luck on your build.

Posted By: moparniac

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 02:58 AM

Quote:

But an aluminum block will be an additional $3500 after machine work. Oh....

just asking but are you saying once you spend $5000 on an aluminum block you will be spending another $3500 on machine working totaling $8500 before assembly? anyone wanna buy my world aluminum block with about 500 miles on it for $4000 all machined up(all arp hardware?)

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 03:20 AM

Quote:

Quote:

But an aluminum block will be an additional $3500 after machine work. Oh....

just asking but are you saying once you spend $5000 on an aluminum block you will be spending another $3500 on machine working totaling $8500 before assembly? anyone wanna buy my world aluminum block with about 500 miles on it for $4000 all machined up(all arp hardware?)

Where do you get that? Let me explain....it would cost an additional $3500 over a steel block for an aluminum block with all of the machine work done. And a person could save possibly $5000 opting for used parts over new. Is that clearer?

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 06:03 AM

The Indy crate engine pricing could be useful for this discussion.

http://www.indyheads.com/images/price2011.4b.pdf

An aluminum block upgrade is $1800 so that is a decent deal. The 930 hp 572 motor is about $22,000 if you upgrade to the Ti valves and get the Callies crank.

The cheapest deal to make 850 hp looks to be about $18,000, but some of the parts used to get the price down might cost more in the long run.

As pointed out earlier, this is for a race gas motor. If you want to run E85 or pump gas, then the price goes up. Of course, if a person already has some parts sitting around then the price could go down.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 06:25 AM

Guess I will chime in here. I ran my junk last month in 5700-6000' of air and only managed an 8.57 best. Granted that air sucks and as pointed out trying to find a convertor that works with my combo has been a challenge for sure, yes #6 is in it now and no better than #5. Trying to get the engine happy at the shift has been a huge issue for me for sure. My car cannot fall out of a tree quickly either, it 60's like a pig, best ever has been 1.17 and that was an 8.0 at 169 in 600' of air. Granted my car is not geared for quick ET's, I am a throttle stop racer so run a conservative gear in the car and a big tire.

IMO building a BIGGER motor would make that an easier task. My engine makes no torque and has a somewhat peaky power band. Trying to get someone to build a convertor for a BB mopar and a glide that works in the RPM range I need has been an issue.

My junk weighs right at 2900lbs race ready. If you want to run S/ST and get the MPH once again I'm gonna say build it BIG. I have been 10.90 at 158 and change. More typical at seal level is 156ish and up here 153ish is typical.

I had an 850hp motor in this car before the current bullet. It was a 572" Hemi that used to be in it. The car wieghed just over 2900lbs and went 8.70's in good air and 146ish on the stop at 10.90. If you really want to run 8.50's in the heat of the summer you had better plan on making more than 850hp at 2800+lbs, just saying.

As for combo, if this really is your goal build it as big as you can afford. Put the best heads you can afford on it. Then let her eat. As pointed out in this post, running 8.50's in the heat N/A at 2800+lbs is not easy. If it were you would see more cars doing it. Most of the door cars I see running anywhere near what I run weigh a LOT less than my car and generally have a whole lot more engine.

Maybe MoparBillys apporach would be better. Build a good motor that makes 850ish HP. Put a fogger on it and spray it to run 8.50's. A simple little 150-200 shot shoudl be more than sufficient to do this. IMO that is about the best budget bang for the buck out there.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 06:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

But an aluminum block will be an additional $3500 after machine work. Oh....

just asking but are you saying once you spend $5000 on an aluminum block you will be spending another $3500 on machine working totaling $8500 before assembly? anyone wanna buy my world aluminum block with about 500 miles on it for $4000 all machined up(all arp hardware?)

Umm my KB block was a lot more than $5000 by the time was all said and done. By the time is was set up for pushrod oiling, the lifter bores were bushed and the 55MM cam tunnel was done the bill was a good deal higher. If you want the best stuff it comes at a cost..........

Posted By: bwdst6

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 12:34 PM

Quote:

As pointed out in this post, running 8.50's in the heat N/A at 2800+lbs is not easy. If it were you would see more cars doing it.

People -> No Money!

Posted By: HardcoreB

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 12:56 PM

Quote:

Maybe MoparBillys apporach would be better. Build a good motor that makes 850ish HP. Put a fogger on it and spray it to run 8.50's. A simple little 150-200 shot shoudl be more than sufficient to do this. IMO that is about the best budget bang for the buck out there.

X2! Excellent idear. Aftermarket block, 540" or so, some EZ or SR heads with max port volume that use 'cheap' rockers. Use a nitrous friendly and gentle roller cam. Should get you 750-800 HP, spray the rest via fogger.

Posted By: RT540

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:12 PM

For a budget build, I would still start with 440-1 MCH cnc ported, and as far as rockers, with a mild cam and the correct springs for that cam, you can get lots of runs with Indy rockers before they start to fatique and break. Springs should still have 20-30pounds more pressure than recommended, for extra safety.
The same goes for B1 originals, with a mild cam 0,700-0,750 lift, the Dove rockers will have a pretty good chance of lasting a couples of seasons. With mild cam, I mean not to go crazy on the 020 and 050 duration. ( specially on the 020 value).
Fast ramp cams eats both springs and rockers.
540 for 440-1 MCH porting and 2.25 valves and
572 for B1 originals, also with MCH porting would be a good start IMO.

T&D rockers and 2.30 Titan valves would definitively be nice, but not economical, as this thread is about.

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe MoparBillys apporach would be better. Build a good motor that makes 850ish HP. Put a fogger on it and spray it to run 8.50's. A simple little 150-200 shot shoudl be more than sufficient to do this. IMO that is about the best budget bang for the buck out there.

X2! Excellent idear. Aftermarket block, 540" or so, some EZ or SR heads with max port volume that use 'cheap' rockers. Use a nitrous friendly and gentle roller cam. Should get you 750-800 HP, spray the rest via fogger.

IMO running nitrous in any index class is not a good idea when consistancy is your best friend

Rickster

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 01:24 PM

IMO running nitrous in any index class is not a good idea when consistancy is your best friend

Rickster

True, but it is definately the cheapest way to go. And as mentioned several times....people have limited cash....me included. The only thing NOS would require is a good aftermarket block.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 02:43 PM

Quote:

IMO running nitrous in any index class is not a good idea when consistancy is your best friend

Rickster

I figured someone would say that. Well from my experience that is simply not a true statement. If the saem care if given to ensure all aspects of your nitrous tune remain the same as you take with the rest of your program I blieve you can be very consistent with it. We are not talking 4 stages and 600=hp here, it would only require a small shot to achieve the goal he is after and if done properly can be deadly consistent.

Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 03:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

IMO running nitrous in any index class is not a good idea when consistency is your best friend

Rickster

I figured someone would say that. Well from my experience that is simply not a true statement. If the saem care if given to ensure all aspects of your nitrous tune remain the same as you take with the rest of your program I blieve you can be very consistent with it. We are not talking 4 stages and 600=hp here, it would only require a small shot to achieve the goal he is after and if done properly can be deadly consistent.

Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree.....not to mention you can only run nitrous in any of the super classes if you are running a turbo diesel....lol.... at least that was the ruling last I knew

SUPER STREET

Section 5 � Super Street

ENGINE: 1

FUEL

Page 92

DELETE:

�Nitrous oxide prohibited�

REPLACE WITH:

�Nitrous oxide prohibited, except on diesel-turbocharged engines�

The same goes for SG & SC.....

Rickster

Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/09/11 08:08 PM

I agree with the poster who said -1 make no sense, they really don't. 572" makes the most sense, 604" would be even better. There's a Callies 4.75" on RJ for $800 and you'll be spending money on getting anything other than Winberg/Bryant/Moldex/etc cleaned up and sorted right anyways.

B1's are the baseline I'd look at. Just bought TD's for my B-1 and they were $1100'ish with shafts. That's maybe 300-400 more than the Koffel/Dove stuff. If you can't find that $ for a build like this, stop now

The MC's are probably a decent step-up if you wait for the sales or find somebody moving up. I'm going E-85 at 13.8:1 EFI at a lot less cubes and I expect to be around 850, but I'm running drysump. There's no really significant price difference between gas and E-85 if you haven't bought stuff yet. You need more fuel pump & injectors(for me), OK, big deal. The cost difference in this budget is pretty insignificant.

It seemed to me that the canted valve stuff was a pretty big $ hit over any of the B-1 wedge stuff. Unported Preds complete were $11k+ and while they're a real step up over any wedge head even unported, that's at least $4k more than I have in my B-1's. S/F.....Ken M

Posted By: wheelsup68dart

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/10/11 02:16 AM

Thank you for all the suggestions. Keep them coming, may try to do something identical to my Dad's setup. 572 aluminum block, with -13's IIRC. I really don't care for the tunnelram setup, personally I am thinking either a toilet or injector hat setup. By budget build, I am not necessarily thinking of a dollar figure, but mostly what do you trust used versus better to buy new kind of items. Really want this engine capable of running Nitrous as a catch up/make up bracket means only. maybe something to use if I am borderline for making a quick 16/quick 32 field. I know this is gonna be costly, but wondering what I might need to expect.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Build me 850 HP in most economical package - 09/10/11 05:15 AM

Rick all you have to do is remove the bottle. You really need to wander the pits more. I personally know of at least 7 racers who run in S/C, S/G and S/ST that ALL have foggers on thier cars. Simply remove the bottle when running the .90 stuff and your fine. As for it not being consistent once again look around. T/S, T/D for instance is full of bottle babies.

Build me 850 HP in most economical package