Moparts

Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap?

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 02:28 AM

I have had several of these new style Hyd flat tappet cams, sure they run OK but the valve train noise is horrible...
I know they recommend adjustable valve train in most case's but this doesnt help.. FACT..
Simply put, take a stock low mile engine with ZERO valve train noise add some old Ductile Iron Isky rockers and you now have a cam that sounds like s solid lift version...
Most shrug the noise off with a answer "Its the nature of these Cams"
Bull crap..
Or
"all these large cams do that"
Bull..
The last MP 509 Hyd cam I installed on a 493 RB engine with Edelbrock heads was quite as a mouse.
Problem is this cam I put in the car, sounds worse than a MP 590 cam with .035 inch lash LOL.
So what gives? why do these cams do this? I have had 3-4 cams do this in the past 10 years... Three have been COMP Cams, One was a Lunati bracket Master from personal experience..
Posted By: 451Guy

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 02:48 AM

My hyd did the same thing. I figured if you can't beat em join em so I am putting a solid in my new motor!

Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 03:04 AM

Quote:

My hyd did the same thing. I figured if you can't beat em join em so I am putting a solid in my new motor!



Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 03:29 AM

Fast rate of lift camshafts and too much spring pressure will overide the hydraulic mechanism.
Some of the cheaper lifters can't handle it.
Keith
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 03:36 AM

There are good hyd cams that are quiet,but I've seen (or heard!) a lot of hyd cams that make a lot of noise and often have issues before they get to 6000 rpm's without spending more $$$ and time than any hyd cam should receive. Why anyone would grind them is anyone's guess,but my is the cam grinders have realized the public will buy what looks good(aggressive on paper) whether it works in an engine or not. There is MUCH more to a cam than what can be seen in the lobe charts and the few reference points given by the maker(often not accurate either). Most of the noise complaints are caused by the closing ramp(or lack of),but that doesn't show up in the lobe specs.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 04:44 AM

Quote:

Fast rate of lift camshafts and too much spring pressure will overide the hydraulic mechanism.
Some of the cheaper lifters can't handle it.
Keith

That, and of course the less preload you run the noisier they will be. The install instructions that come with Hughes cams even mentions the increase in noise level with the decrease in preload. I run a pretty hefty hyd ( .615 lift ) in my 408 and I run 1/4 turn preload - and it is noisey. At 3/4 turn, it becomes quiet.
Posted By: Commando1

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 11:47 AM

Quote:

I have had several of these new style Hyd flat tappet cams, sure they run OK but the valve train noise is horrible..


And I thought it was just me.
Makes me feel better about my last build. Thanks.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 02:48 PM

Quote:

Fast rate of lift camshafts and too much spring pressure will overide the hydraulic mechanism.
Some of the cheaper lifters can't handle it.
Keith




This and everyone that I know wants something that will
be fast in the engine so they go with the bigger
lifts and of course they want they want the maintenance
free of the hyd cam when in reality they should have
gone with the flat tappet
Posted By: Get-X

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 02:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Fast rate of lift camshafts and too much spring pressure will overide the hydraulic mechanism.
Some of the cheaper lifters can't handle it.
Keith




This and everyone that I know wants something that will
be fast in the engine so they go with the bigger
lifts and of course they want they want the maintenance
free of the hyd cam when in reality they should have
gone with the flat tappet




I couldn't agree more. IMO if you're going bigger than low .500's in lift, a solid lifter cam is the way to go. They make more power than juice cams and really aren't a lot more maintenance.
Posted By: rickstershemi

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 04:39 PM

Our new Erson 420621 in the 408" is quiet as a church mouse

Rickster
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 05:24 PM

How do the older MP cams differ? Wish I had my old 528 solid cam laying around, pretty much gave it away figured I would never use that ole thing...
That ole 528 solid is one heck of a street cam...
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 05:29 PM

Higher idle speed
Higher viscosity
Higher low speed pressure (pump size?)
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 05:40 PM

I used the matching lifters from Comp, the cup seat looks to be about .100 shorter than the cam and lifters that cam out of it..
I thought about pulling the intake and throw these lifters in.. just to see.
Posted By: 1968RR

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 05:46 PM

I've been using Comp's XE295HL cam (and the Pro Magnum lifters) for over two years now and I've got lots of lifter noise. I've checked and rechecked the preload, and everything is set right. The engine runs well, but the cam/lifters are loud (especially when cold). I thought that the new HS rockers I've added might help a little, but no dice.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 05:54 PM

Its aggravating me... I think its Unacceptable..
The Ford and Chevy guys dont have this problem. Im sorry Id give up a little power not to hear that noise... [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean]?
Posted By: Duster 371

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 06:47 PM

Bob... I couldn't agree more.
But its not the the Mopar cams, installed an extremely mild
Comp Cam in my Big Block Vette and the valve train was so
noisy, i thought the lifters were bad. So after another set
of new lifters and multiple adjustments....same crap!
Posted By: Leigh

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 06:56 PM

Quote:

Bob... I couldn't agree more.
But its not the the Mopar cams, installed an extremely mild
Comp Cam in my Big Block Vette and the valve train was so
noisy, i thought the lifters were bad. So after another set
of new lifters and multiple adjustments....same crap!



+1. I have a Comp 268H in a +.030 BBC, that not only is noisy, it's a stone. I run the recommended Comp springs, and Delphi lifters. By the way, they are no quieter than the Comp lifters, that came with the cam.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 07:07 PM

Quote:

Bob... I couldn't agree more.
But its not the the Mopar cams, installed an extremely mild
Comp Cam in my Big Block Vette and the valve train was so
noisy, i thought the lifters were bad. So after another set
of new lifters and multiple adjustments....same crap!

Your correct it's NOT limited to mopar cams. It's a potential problem with any camshaft design. The first time I ran into this was around 79/80 when a certain company released a line of cams that are still being sold today,the first batches were very annoying,but a little revamp and things were quiet again.
Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 07:50 PM

These are the reasons I don't use hydraulic roller cams either. It takes a lot of work to make one work right and with all the expense,might as well go to a solid roller.
It does not help that Mopars have heavy valvetrains and even some of the aftermarket parts are heavy too.
Keith
Posted By: sturmenater

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 08:05 PM

If your valves are too noisy its because your exhaust is not load enough
Bob i have a mopar .528 purple stick that i broke in but swaped out for the .590 the .528 just wasnt what i was looking for in a drag race only ap
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 08:10 PM

its the closing ramps on the aggressive lobes. don't want noise? use an assymetrical lobe.
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 08:14 PM

I find it kind of odd that, only a few years ago Comp used to recommend not using the XE cams for actual driving, street, power tour and so on.

If a person picked up the phone and called, they'd say no way, it won't work...use an old high energy or magnum grind instead.

Then a few years and many magazine articles later, everyone wants to use them in everything, almost all of them make noise, and Comp says now it is OK to use them in whatever you want.



They do run well, but if you're going to have lifter noise then why even use a hydraulic to begin with?

Quote:

How do the older MP cams differ?


The lifter moves very slowly, and most of them have narrow lobe separation because they were designed to work with the poor flowing stock iron cylinder heads of the day
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 10:01 PM

Quote:

I find it kind of odd that, only a few years ago Comp used to recommend not using the XE cams for actual driving, street, power tour and so on.

If a person picked up the phone and called, they'd say no way, it won't work...use an old high energy or magnum grind instead.

Then a few years and many magazine articles later, everyone wants to use them in everything, almost all of them make noise, and Comp says now it is OK to use them in whatever you want.



They do run well, but if you're going to have lifter noise then why even use a hydraulic to begin with?

Quote:

How do the older MP cams differ?


The lifter moves very slowly, and most of them have narrow lobe separation because they were designed to work with the poor flowing stock iron cylinder heads of the day

good point. the faster the ramps the noisier the tappets.
Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/03/11 10:41 PM

I had a Comp XE295HL in my old engine and it was only loud when you had the hood open I had a set of stock iron rockers with mine.
I really think some people don't put enough pre-load on them
Gus

Attached picture 6809332-burnoutpicturegus.JPG
Posted By: BradH

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/04/11 12:08 AM

If I ever build another hydraulic flat-tappet cam combination, it will not have one of the "latest and greatest fast rate of lift" grinds in it like COMP offers. Between the valve train clatter I've heard first hand and enough dyno evidence I've seen over the years to show how those things start "crashing" at high(er) RPMs, they're on my "never use" list.

There are still some relatively high-lift .904 hydraulic profiles available from Crane that are less aggressive and smooth enough to not beat the valve train up so badly. Crane calls them their H2 series in the most recent Master List I have.
Posted By: Crizila

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/04/11 04:48 AM

Another one of those "happy wandering threads". Started out as a " noise bothers me issue". Then moved in to a solid is better than a hydraulic for racing issue. Then in to the old technology is better than new technology issue. I'm . Sorry, but I would be happy to give up all the above for a tenth!
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/04/11 05:02 AM

Quote:

Another one of those "happy wandering threads". Started out as a " noise bothers me issue". Then moved in to a solid is better than a hydraulic for racing issue. Then in to the old technology is better than new technology issue. I'm . Sorry, but I would be happy to give up all the above for a tenth!


Shoot I would too.
But what do ya do if your junk is slow, and trashes like a blender full or marbles... LOL...
I mean in a street car? Even at the track, how much better is this noise sticks? No way a tenth.. Were talking about a few numbers... And even then its "Just bracket Racing" anyways..
Its embarrassing to start it up.... Sure Open headers would drown it out.. But for Us street guys who actually use full length exh systems, and true mufflers..
Like said before, why put up with all that clatter, when you could have a solid lift.. I know some will say maintenance, but not in my engines. My junk never needed adjusted very often, if any at all. Several times I recall pulling the rocker shafts and putting them back without breaking loose the adjusters... Quick check with my high tech hand/finger gauge and its all good.
Posted By: goldmember

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/04/11 05:26 AM

Quote:

Another one of those "happy wandering threads". Started out as a " noise bothers me issue". Then moved in to a solid is better than a hydraulic for racing issue. Then in to the old technology is better than new technology issue. I'm . Sorry, but I would be happy to give up all the above for a tenth!

I never brought up solid lifter cams,thought about it.... I also don't subscribe to "new tech" being a bad thing. A friend and cam designer told me years ago that it's easy to design a great looking lobe(on paper) for a .904 lifter,the problem is the hyd lifter is easily confused trying to translate it to stable valve action.This still has nothing to do with a generally noisy hyd cam profile. When I'm stuck with a hyd cam I choose a stable lobe and if I THINK I need more area I'll add rocker ratio and test.
Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/04/11 02:01 PM

Modern Hydraulic flat tappets are much faster ramps than the older ones that made power more by maxing torque in the sweet spot and with realtively big but comapartively slow ramps. Mopar valvetrain is typically bigger and far heavier than the .824 Chevy and .875 Ford, that mass takes it's toll in terms of noise. Lighter valves (like the smaller stem edelbrocks and lighter valvetrain components upstream (retainers, bee hives) help up top in terms of rpm stability but down low for the clatter a lot of people seem not to mind I'd just as soon run a solid and have better response and cleaner pull on both sides of the scale.

The comp XE's and the like seem to make good power but they often sound awful under the hood. For Flat taps I'm old school but I generally prefer the older (80's era assymetrical)Crowers, Ultradynes and engle series hughes were also very good; after all the hype quicker ramp speeds on Hydraulics will really only get you so far compared to a solid and solids are a whole lot lighter mass, my preference has always been to really work the heads to max out that mid lift (.200-.450) 'sweet spot' and just keep the cam tried and true. I'll bet that the reality is 90% of the R&D for the quicker ramps is developed around SBC test mules and then simply 'scaled up' for the .904 mopar market

Noise and harmonics that don't 'sound' quite right even though they seem to function ok will always stick in my mind and ruin my driving satisfaction, you're always gonna be thinking about it.
Posted By: Pale_Roader

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/08/11 09:44 AM


Interesting thread. Last time i did any reading on cams was right around when these new fast ramp cams started showing up in the magazines. I bought a 275HL Comp at that time but never got to use it. I ended up selling it and will go for the solid in my next real build. I like simple, and even to me and my limited knowledge the 295HL Comp seemed a bit much for a hydraulic lifter. Even though i've never had one, i have no idea why everyone is so phobic ov solid cams.

Where do the Hughes Whiplash cams fall in this regard? Are they a very aggressive profile?
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/08/11 05:26 PM

I have two 440 type(one 452 and one 464 C.I.)motors with comp hydraulic cams, one XE285HL on iron heads with 1.6 ductile iron rockers and one XE295HL on Eddy RPM with Harland Sharp 1.5 ratio rockers, niether one seem to be noisy to me I did use the standard Comp hydraulic lifters(not Pro Magnum ) and I use 1/3 to 1/2 turn preload when hot I'm assuming by noise you mean valve train noise and not the rumpty rump noise of the cam in the exhaust
Posted By: superwrench

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/09/11 02:17 AM

I had the XE295HL in my 496 with Eddy heads and used the standard Comp Lifters with Crane adjustable rockers. Preload was at 1/3 turn.
No way was there objectionable noise....there was SOME valvetrain noise, but the noise from the piston clearances was a lot worse.
Look at a Comp XEHL cam and then a milder MP cam.....lobe differences???....Yep! The Comps are quite aggressive.
Posted By: joedust451

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/09/11 01:27 PM

Quote:

Fast rate of lift camshafts and too much spring pressure will overide the hydraulic mechanism.
Some of the cheaper lifters can't handle it.
Keith



Bingo!

Thats why i highly recammend the Anti-pumpup lifters like the Pro-magnums, I have had nothing but problems with the standard lifters & fast-rate lift cams, I think thats were comp & others make that mistake by putting there "basic" style lifters in the cam kits, thats why its best to buy them seperately, may cost a bit more, but hey, in the long run your happy, no excessive noise.

I've run a few .284H cams in both SBs & BBs, at 1st. i learned the hard way, then took the advice of a mopar member about 10yrs. ago. Buy the "Pro-Magnum" Anti-pumpup lifters & set the preload at 1/8" turn.
Posted By: 6PKRTSE

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/09/11 06:07 PM

I have the Comp XE294H in my Charger with a 440. Not too much more moise than any other engine & I drive this car everywhere. Since its just a driver I didn't want to spend all of the extra money to go to a roller cam (for now). Everyone with me can't believe all of the compliments I get how good it sounds & how stock everything looks.
Posted By: AutoEngineer

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/09/11 06:37 PM

Quote:

My hyd did the same thing. I figured if you can't beat em join em so I am putting a solid in my new motor!





Or change for a roller cam
Posted By: imfixinmopars426

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/09/11 09:07 PM

maybe a change to a LS1 engine,i hear they are quiet.
Posted By: 440newport

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/09/11 09:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have had several of these new style Hyd flat tappet cams, sure they run OK but the valve train noise is horrible..


And I thought it was just me.
Makes me feel better about my last build. Thanks.



The Lunati Voodoo in my 400 sounds like a sewing machine at idle. It's really irritating.
Posted By: 68 Roadrunner

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/16/11 02:05 PM

Wow! You guys can't believe how much better I feel about my build after reading this! My valvetrain noise has been bothering me all summer. I kept thinking about swapping out the lifters this winter. I know my pushrods are also a little on the short side but they seem to be working fine with adjustable rockers. I am running a Voodoo and it has "some" noise. I wouldn't call it horrible, but the stock cam, lifters, rockers were whisper quiet, so I figured I did something wrong!
Posted By: dragram440

Re: Who do all these modern flat Hyd sound like crap? - 09/16/11 02:33 PM

I had this same cam and lifters and it was a little lould!
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