Does race gas improve every engines performance?

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 04:17 PM

Just wondering what you guys have experimented with. My Hemi is around 10.75 to 1. N/A and only a 472 with a well-tuned Dominator. Wondering if I should throw some in, if it will kick it up a notch. Thanks.. Need every tip going against a 68 Black Pig at Norwalk !! LOL

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 04:31 PM

it does if your compression calls for it,in ur case i would say i might slow u down..i would just get good 93...for us here sunoco sells good ultra

Posted By: HemiRick

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 04:38 PM

More octane only makes you go slower if you dont need it to prevent detonation. The higher the octane the slower the gas burns.

Posted By: Mopar_Rich

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 04:58 PM

Once you achieve the minimum octane required by an engine to suppress detonation at the correct timing - any additional octane is wasted and only slows you down.

If you have to run retarded timing with the fuel you are currently using, then increasing the octane would allow you to increase the timing and that would give you more power. The key is you need to know what you engine's ideal timing is.

Posted By: max_maniac

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 05:19 PM

Quote:

Just wondering what you guys have experimented with. My Hemi is around 10.75 to 1. N/A and only a 472 with a well-tuned Dominator. Wondering if I should throw some in, if it will kick it up a notch. Thanks.. Need every tip going against a 68 Black Pig at Norwalk !! LOL

IF he keeps the trunk full of the beer you don't need it but if he empties it

and I know we/he will then you don't stand a chance

Or could also be said if Alexander Keith is in the trunk you win and if he lets him out you lose

Russ

Posted By: Leon441

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 05:30 PM

Pump gas is oxegenated. So if you do not need the extra octane then it is faster.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 05:34 PM

Quote:

Just wondering what you guys have experimented with. My Hemi is around 10.75 to 1. N/A and only a 472 with a well-tuned Dominator. Wondering if I should throw some in, if it will kick it up a notch. Thanks.. Need every tip going against a 68 Black Pig at Norwalk !! LOL

I started out using 114 octane and I switched to 112
and the car picked up in MPH and ET... if you dont
change timing to compensate for the slower burn rate
of the higher octane you WILL go slower... also there
is a point where if you add timing its a hindrance
slowing the piston way down the cyl... have to balance
the octane to timing based on compression and efficiency
of the head

Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 05:41 PM

The only way to know what works is to try it on your engine.
Some fuels have have a faster burn speed than others,some have more btu's per gallon than others. Octane is just an indicator of a fuel's resistance to detonation and does not really indicate a good fuel.
I tested two different brands of pump premium and saw major hp and torque differences on my dyno. The local Citgo was better than the Sunoco around here.
It depends on many factors,not just compression ratio.

Keith

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 05:42 PM

Worth a try anyway. I'd try a mix of 110 and 93 see what happends. After that bump the timing and see if you get any more out of it. I found my old 95 5.2 Dakota sport ran better and stronger with a mix of 93 and unleaded 104. I was told that was because of the computer advancing the spark and dumping more fuel. I think those motors are like 9:1.
On this car (11.2:1 440) I run a meth/water injection kit and 93. You can defenitly tell the difference when the switch is on.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 05:57 PM

Yes it will, in every case I've ever experienced.
I've used it in everything you can imagine.
I sell it and have taken it on boating/jetski trips and have lent some to friends. They loved it and windup buying it for special trips and such.
Also have taken it on ATV trips and the same thing, let someone borrow some and they can't beleive how well there bikes runs on it and windup buying for there bikes.
I have had some in the garage for my 2 stroke bikes and have used in weed eaters and chainsaws, they scream on it.
Everthing I've ever put it in has run noticably better. Smells good too. lol

Posted By: 5spdcuda

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 05:58 PM

I agree with those that have pointed out that you only need enough octane to prevent detonation while still maintaining optimal timing advance. Only Dunnuck touched on BTUs. This is an often overlooked factor and is separate from octane. There's a reason why gasoline suppliers work so closely with engine manufactures in F1. It's worth remembering that every bit of power that an engine produces comes from it's fuel. It may well pay you to try different brands. Gasoline is blended for different regions and seasons so what works well in one place may not be the hot ticket somewhere else.

Posted By: julian2007

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 06:07 PM

Years ago my friends and I bought three brand new rm 250 dirt bikes and they could never figure out why mine was faster than theirs I ran 112 they ran pump gas.Mine would flip over in 6th gear theirs would just get the tire off the ground.My chain saw also loves it 1st pull every time but with pump gas two or three pulls, you can lay on the saw harder to with the 112.Their are lots of people smarter than me I can't tell you anything about burn rates or the reasons why it should or should not work but I have run 112 in everything from a chain saw to a bass boat to a race car and always had better performance.

btw

I see more performance gain in the two stroke stuff than in the four stroke.

Posted By: Moparnut426

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 06:12 PM

Quote:

Yes it will, in every case I've ever experienced.
I've used it in everything you can imagine.
I sell it and have taken it on boating/jetski trips and have lent some to friends. They loved it and windup buying it for special trips and such.
Also have taken it on ATV trips and the same thing, let someone borrow some and they can't beleive how well there bikes runs on it and windup buying for there bikes.
I have had some in the garage for my 2 stroke bikes and have used in weed eaters and chainsaws, they scream on it.
Everthing I've ever put it in has run noticably better. Smells good too. lol

I have to agree with this completely.

Everything including a 318 4bbl van with 340 heads ran like a top on a race gas mix. I usually run 5-8 gallons of 110 to a full tank of our crappo 87 or 89 octane fuel. There is only 3 places close to me within 30 miles that have 91. The 89 is 10% ethy, and the Demon DOES NOT like that stuff.

So in my case with the crap fuel we have, I have to say YES bump it inn, and enjoy the smell, and clean pipes. I even put a tad bit in my 06 ultra classic.

Kasey

Posted By: BradH

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 06:15 PM

Quote:

The only way to know what works is to try it on your engine.

Yep, there's your answer.

And the terse response to your "Why?" question is "Because it ain't just about the octane."

"Good" gas CAN make more power than "OK" gas, even when the "OK" gas has sufficient octane and the "Good" gas appears to be way overkill... but it's not a sure thing.

Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 06:50 PM

If octane is raised with additives, those chemicals produce no BTU, but replace gasoline that does.

Posted By: dOc !

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 07:07 PM

REMEMBER a bunchOyears ago ... I think it was Ammoco was advertising that their premium gas made your car run better(more power and MPG) ? After many complaints from citizens .... several state AG's demanded that they PROVE that these claims were true.

Yadi, yadi, YADA .... the ads were pulled. All they were trying to do is sell their higher grade(aka higher priced) gas.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 07:27 PM

Quote:

Yes it will, in every case I've ever experienced.
I've used it in everything you can imagine.
I sell it and have taken it on boating/jetski trips and have lent some to friends. They loved it and windup buying it for special trips and such.
Also have taken it on ATV trips and the same thing, let someone borrow some and they can't beleive how well there bikes runs on it and windup buying for there bikes.
I have had some in the garage for my 2 stroke bikes and have used in weed eaters and chainsaws, they scream on it.
Everthing I've ever put it in has run noticably better. Smells good too. lol

Both of my bikes(Harley and Honda) HATED the higher
octane fuel... I made the mistake of putting the Sunoco
blue racing fuel in and it would barely idle let alone
at higher rpms... plus I proved more octane isnt
always better when I went from 114 to 112 with NO
other changes

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 07:47 PM

IMO 110 leaded fuel is the ticket for most cases(street strip cars, boats bikes), not 112, not 114 or 116 or 118. Now I'm not talking racing engines, just a hot street engine will really wake up with 110 leaded.
I had some Sunoco Maximal(118 pro stock gas) that I run in a drag bike, lot's of revs and 15-1. When I sold the bike I tried to burn that 118 like I did 110. It didn't run right and pretty much sucked for at the time 6.00-8.00 dollar a gallon gas.

Like a lot of guys have pointed out, yourself included higher octane is not always better.

But I got to say, I've never seen anything not run better on 110 leaded, it's the nector of the engine gods. lol

Sunoco/Cam2 standard is 110/112 and it's purple, supreme is 112/114 and blue and maximal is 116/118 and red. depending how it's rated.

Most places that sell it at the pump is 110 leaded, we also sell at the pump nowadays is 100 octane unleaded for the computer cars. It's getting more popular. It's the same cost as 110 leaded so I have never tried it yet.

Yes lets say you ran red maximal in a engine turning 7000 rpm or so, the blue with lower octane is gonna run much better in that engine because the red is made for really high rpm engines with hi compression ratios.

Posted By: bumps440

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 09:18 PM

Quote:

More octane only makes you go slower if you dont need it to prevent detonation. The higher the octane the slower the gas burns.

This is not true.
do your research online before you make a comment here. Race gas need to burn fast not slow. dont confuse anti detonation qualities with slow burn.
An oxygenated gas of higher octane along with richening it up a bit will make more power.
Anyway there are s lot of sites that "teach" about racing gas and its properties. I suggest you start reading.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 09:27 PM

Quote:

IMO 110 leaded fuel is the ticket for most cases(street strip cars, boats bikes), not 112, not 114 or 116 or 118. Now I'm not talking racing engines, just a hot street engine will really wake up with 110 leaded.
I had some Sunoco Maximal(118 pro stock gas) that I run in a drag bike, lot's of revs and 15-1. When I sold the bike I tried to burn that 118 like I did 110. It didn't run right and pretty much sucked for at the time 6.00-8.00 dollar a gallon gas.

Like a lot of guys have pointed out, yourself included higher octane is not always better.

But I got to say, I've never seen anything not run better on 110 leaded, it's the nector of the engine gods. lol

Sunoco/Cam2 standard is 110/112 and it's purple, supreme is 112/114 and blue and maximal is 116/118 and red. depending how it's rated.

Most places that sell it at the pump is 110 leaded, we also sell at the pump nowadays is 100 octane unleaded for the computer cars. It's getting more popular. It's the same cost as 110 leaded so I have never tried it yet.

Yes lets say you ran red maximal in a engine turning 7000 rpm or so, the blue with lower octane is gonna run much better in that engine because the red is made for really high rpm engines with hi compression ratios.

When I referred to Sunoco Blue it was the so called
race fuel you could buy at the pumps some years back
(dont know if its still sold or not) my bikes sure
didnt like it... it ran bad enough that I drained it
out and re fueled

Posted By: BradH

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 09:36 PM

Quote:

... do your research online before you make a comment here...

If that was a requirement before loggin into this place (or the internet in general), there wouldn't be much posting going on!

Posted By: bumps440

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 09:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

... do your research online before you make a comment here...

If that was a requirement before loggin into this place (or the internet in general), there wouldn't be much posting going on!

But Brad. why would someone recommend wrong info. my point is , If you dont know, dont say.
I know you and a few others here are very knowledgeable. and welcome your info.

Posted By: Viol8r

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 08/31/11 11:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

More octane only makes you go slower if you dont need it to prevent detonation. The higher the octane the slower the gas burns.

This is not true.
do your research online before you make a comment here. Race gas need to burn fast not slow. dont confuse anti detonation qualities with slow burn.
An oxygenated gas of higher octane along with richening it up a bit will make more power.
Anyway there are s lot of sites that "teach" about racing gas and its properties. I suggest you start reading.

Pretty hostile for someone that does not know how to use spell or grammar check!!

Posted By: fishy340

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 12:11 AM

waste of money in a car with 10.5 compression..track will show you,better then a book

Posted By: emarine01

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 12:15 AM

Man I love fuel posts....

.... Lots of good info and lots of opinions, The only thing I will add is..... If ya ain't got enough octane for the pressure , heat , and spark timing.... Its gonna be a bad day.... There is a ton of power to be had in the fuel you choose to burn and its not that easy to find the perfect match for every combo.... That's half the fun, even when ya think you have the perfect fuel there's.... A/F ratio, Air temp and all the other ever changing variables to consider every time ya try to make max power, Any how the opp posted 10.75 to 1 compression

That means absolutely nothing with out knowing cyl pressure and intake closing, one mans 10.75 can run fine on 93 and an others will knock the porcelains off the plugs

Where are all the nitrous guys when ya need them, They have good stories about melting things when things aren't right and sometimes even good pictures

Posted By: VernMotor

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 12:32 AM

Well I can tell you this about my car. it ET the same with 110 or pump gas 93. I do mix it 50-50 just to have the lead lube..about 12 to 1 and 35 deg of timing

Posted By: AndyF

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 02:35 AM

I've had my 514 on the dyno the last couple of days testing different flavors of race gas. So far we haven't found any power and we've been trying all the fancy high dollar stuff that was recommended to us.

Posted By: justinp61

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 02:38 AM

My 11.2-1 340 slowed down with 110 unleaded, I ran it on pump 93. My 408 is 10.9-1, I haven't even tried anything but 93 in it, I don't see the need.

Posted By: bumps440

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 01:01 PM

Pretty hostile for someone that does not know how to use spell or grammar check!!

No Comment. Cause I will not lower myself to your level.

As for racing gas. A fuel with the identical octane can act very differently. There are different ingredients used to make a race fuel. Whats more important to know is something called distilation curve. Some fuels or actually their ingrediants evaporate too slow to completely burn in the amount of time that have to burn. The higher the RPM the more problems you have extracting the Energy from the fuel.
2 identical octane fuels can be miles apart in their use of the energy available.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 02:41 PM

Quote:

Years ago my friends and I bought three brand new rm 250 dirt bikes and they could never figure out why mine was faster than theirs I ran 112 they ran pump gas.Mine would flip over in 6th gear theirs would just get the tire off the ground.My chain saw also loves it 1st pull every time but with pump gas two or three pulls, you can lay on the saw harder to with the 112.Their are lots of people smarter than me I can't tell you anything about burn rates or the reasons why it should or should not work but I have run 112 in everything from a chain saw to a bass boat to a race car and always had better performance.

My friend owns a couple thousand acres of land down in southern Ky. About 10 of us would go down there and ride dirt bikes for the weekend. I used to run race gas straight in my bikes and the guys behind me would complain about the smell of my bike from following me. I'd tell them to get in front of me if they could.

Couple of my other buddys would run it too, straight. You could taste it in your mouth after a few hours on the trail. It would make your beer taste like

at the end of the day.
So we started mixing it 50-50 just so it didn't smell so bad in the woods. lol They knew when we were runnig race gas from the smell.

Posted By: Clanton

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 02:59 PM

Rick R&R auto sells it on brookpark rd and the gas station at w140th down the rd.8$ gall.

Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 03:17 PM

As previously mentioned, octane rating is a measurement of resistance to detonation. It needs more heat to light off. Burn rate is another story altogether. Race fuels burn faster than pump fuels. Too much octane and not enough heat will lead to an incomplete burn, which is why many of you have gone down in octane and went faster. If you have too much octane for the combination you are running, the chambers and piston tops will not carbon up like they should. I'm not talking 1/4" thick, it's burning oil carbon, but that thin, black to brown coating the tops of the pistons and the chambers get when it's running good.
Here's something for people to think about: do we run race gas so we can have high compression or do we have high compression so we can run race gas?

Posted By: firefighter3931

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 04:17 PM

Quote:

IF he keeps the trunk full of the beer you don't need it but if he empties it and I know we/he will then you don't stand a chance

Or could also be said if Alexander Keith is in the trunk you win and if he lets him out you lose

Russ

Hi Russ

No worries...we'll let that Keith's guy out of the trunk so you Ohio guys can play with him

Mine runs fine on 93 pump swill....no jungle juice needed !

Ron

Posted By: Labratt

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 05:29 PM

Hey,Good Buddy!....hope you stow away a few SLEEMAN'S in that there trunk!

Lookin' forward to quaffing a few with my buddies...who,unfortunately,I don't see nearly often enough!

Rick...I agree with Brad...won't know the answer until you try some! I'd start with a 50/50 mix of 93 pump and 110...see if it improves ANYTHING! If so..maybe bump up the ratio to 60/40...or 70/30. One of these days that's what I plan to do with the GTX...even though mine seems to run without any signs of detonation at all. 10:25 compression,aluminum heads...and 38* total timing.

Attached picture 6805483-CANADIANBEERDELIVERYCAR.jpg

Posted By: 383man

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 05:36 PM

Bottom line is just putting race gas in a car wont make it faster. But if its a race eng then you can tune for more timing and so on so that you can make the most power without eng knock using race gas. I see some guys that run timing back at 30 on the street but when they race they add race fuel and bump the timing to 38 or about which they cant do on high enough comp and to low octane. Like was said race gas burns slower as it resist knock better that way and all gasses are not created equal. Try to start your hotrod in 20 degree temps with race gas and then try it with 92 pump and see which makes it easier to start in cold temps. The faster burning pump will start easier in cold temps because of its nature. I build my engines to run on 92 pump even with my timing at 38 as thats what I want because my cars are street cars. My new eng has good .045 quench and alot of cam to keep the cyl pressure good enough that it runs great on 92 pump. Heck 3.85 a gallon cost enough for me without even thinking about the price of race gas. Ron

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 06:55 PM

Quote:

Hey,Good Buddy!....hope you stow away a few SLEEMAN'S in that there trunk! Lookin' forward to quaffing a few with my buddies...who,unfortunately,I don't see nearly often enough! Rick...I agree with Brad...won't know the answer until you try some! I'd start with a 50/50 mix of 93 pump and 110...see if it improves ANYTHING! If so..maybe bump up the ratio to 60/40...or 70/30. One of these days that's what I plan to do with the GTX...even though mine seems to run without any signs of detonation at all. 10:25 compression,aluminum heads...and 38* total timing.

Now THAT`S how to party.............

Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 07:29 PM

do to the shape of the Hemi's combustion chamber higher octane fuel does not burn as fast . many nold pro stockers ran 12.5 rather than 13.5-1.
I never ran more than 110 in the majority of those motors.

Posted By: 69CHARGERMD

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 08:25 PM

Is this the guy your going after ?

Posted By: Guitar Jones

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 09:42 PM

Quote:

Here's something for people to think about: do we run race gas so we can have high compression or do we have high compression so we can run race gas?

I runz racin gas cause it stinks real good.

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 09:54 PM

Great info guys. I have been on the road since 3 am. At the Yellow Bullet Nats at Cecil County Raceway in Maryland. I'll try 10 gal 93 and 5 gal 110. I need to see if they'll let me make some T& T. They are pretty stiff here on the rules. Not sure I can go the 11.50 or over. Great info, I really learned a lot in a short time. Thank you guys.

Posted By: 10secGTX

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 10:21 PM

Rick work off your 1/8 mi times and mph.....do you remember them ?

Posted By: sunroofgtx

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/01/11 10:40 PM

Heck no. I haven't seriously raced this thing in 2 years

Was going to try this weekend, but it's not looking good.

Posted By: Old School

Re: Does race gas improve every engines performance? - 09/02/11 12:17 AM

Quote:

Just wondering what you guys have experimented with. My Hemi is around 10.75 to 1. N/A and only a 472 with a well-tuned Dominator. Wondering if I should throw some in, if it will kick it up a notch. Thanks.. Need every tip going against a 68 Black Pig at Norwalk !! LOL

your going to need more than alittle race gas to get around the pig. your going to need more cubes...