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Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH!!!

Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH!!! - 08/20/11 01:19 AM

Okay guys, I bought the engine I posted about a couple weeks ago. 440, removed from a crashed mud bogger, edelbrock performer intake, deep sump pan. The guy dropped the price to $380 with the trans. Sold.


Fast forward. I got the engine home, pulled the trans, pulled the plugs and valve covers.





Everything looks clean with a light surface rust on a couple of the rocker towers at the front of the left head. Spark plugs had rust around them but I think the thing was stored a year and still has mud on it from its bogging days. Those two plugs with the rusty threads near the electrode were on the front left. I thought maybe moisture could have crept in from the exhaust port if the valve were open? There is no sign of breakage. One push rood was loose enough that I bumped it and it popped from under the arm. I can't spin the crank. It goes 1/3rd turn and goes clunk. So I pulled the pan. No shavings or ground metal. Oil is nice and smooth. All the rods, pins, pistons, cylinder walls, bolts, crank look fine. As I tried to turn the crank again I heard what sounded like a clash up on the left front... like the piston clunking into a valve.



What's next? I guess I strip her down, check the cam lobes and lifters. Everything looks so nice and moves pretty freely until it stops. The oil pick up has no metal in the screen and looks brand new.

Posted By: 408strokerdart

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 01:25 AM

Pull the heads. That will tell you what you need to know.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 02:24 AM

Could be a bent valve OR a converter bolt backed out
and is hitting the block.... open it up
EDIT
I see you pulled the trans... cancel that idea of the
conv bolt
Posted By: rebel

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 02:37 AM

have you taken the rocker gear off & checked all the valves are at the same height? this will tell you if you are experiancing a valve problem
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 03:08 AM



use a straight edge on the top of the valves.
Could have a carb nut that fell down the intake or something like that. Just keep digging.
Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 03:11 AM

Haven't pulled the rocker gear off. I'll do that tonight or tomorrow and pull the heads. That would be so cool if I could get this puppy running.

New question. How do you tell what stall a torque converter is? Is there a machine that tests this? it came with a nice looking converter but it is bare metal and looks like it's been worked by the welds between the case and the flywheel. It has a little stamp on it and this is the only defining mark other than what appears to be a timing mark.



Posted By: rebel

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 05:22 AM

thats a biggg converter. i bet the stall isn't that high. i wouldn't blab to too many people about it being a hot converter just yet, you going to have to test it in your combo to see how good it is.
Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 06:16 AM

You either have a bent valve or a valve stuck open. The loose pushrod just about confirms it.
Posted By: Mike Swann

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 06:58 AM

The rust on the 2 plugs in the foreground on the right is telling.
Posted By: POS Dakota

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 07:04 AM

Quote:

The rust on the 2 plugs in the foreground on the right is telling.




Exactly. Probably a frozen guide in the head.
Might not be any damage at all per se, just a stuck valve from it sitting with water in it.
Posted By: therocks

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 11:46 AM

Looks like a lot of rust around No 8 corner.Looks like water was sitting there.Rocky
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 01:25 PM

I'm thinking you just have rust in a few of the cyl
that the rings are hitting... maybe a bent or hung
valve
Posted By: Commando1

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 01:36 PM

If I bought a $380 used and abused engine, I would have automatically stripped it down to the bare block from day 1.
Go for the whole enchelada and save yourself time & aggravation.
Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 02:40 PM

anything is just, well , guess,. man tear it down, ,
380 dollars motor tranny,, nothing to lose, here ,
Posted By: slippery440

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/20/11 02:44 PM

You did great for 380 dollars for everything. Now you just have to understand that you bought basicly a junk motor that has good parts and a trany that is a good core. Why in the world would you think that a motor that has any rust on the inside will start up and run ? I have bought motors from the scrap yard that was in the same shape or better and never even had a thought to just try to start them and mabe use them in a car. The converter is just a junk 11" stock piece.
Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/21/11 04:00 AM

Quote:

You did great for 380 dollars for everything. Now you just have to understand that you bought basicly a junk motor that has good parts and a trany that is a good core. Why in the world would you think that a motor that has any rust on the inside will start up and run ?




Because I am an optimist... The motor was said to be a running unit. It had the trans bolted to it and more than one guy here suggested that there was a converter bolt backed out and hitting. A little moisture from sitting a year around here, especially with the carb and exhaust manifolds off wouldn't be unusual. I just was excited at how fresh the thing looks but confused at why it didn't turn because the bottom end is completely clean with no sign of a running failure. I've disassembled motors before but this is my first possible rebuild, so go easy there, big guy...
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/21/11 04:06 AM

I'm betting on rust in the cylinders first and then a stuck valve in a guide Please let us know what you find
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. - 08/21/11 05:05 AM

I do as little to it as I could. Give it a hand hone, stick it back together and play. If they didn't pitch a rod out of it demo'n it then it's a good one
Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 01:19 AM

Quote:

I'm betting on rust in the cylinders first and then a stuck valve in a guide Please let us know what you find




Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!

Well, here's what I found.

7 of the bores look like this.


Give or take carbon, but they all look nice. That is except for #8 which looks like this.

#6 is okay but you can see where some moisture was in the head affecting that plug, and #8's valves were rusted up nicely...


All the lifters looked pretty with the exception of a couple that looked like they may not be rotating in the bore real good. smooth but black stains. the two on the back end were gummy as you can see and the cam looked gummy too. The lifters came out with a little coaxing gooey orange in the top from rust but still functioned. The cam looked pretty except for the back end which looked like this.


Sad that that bore got wet. It's nasty. Feels like 40 grit. So what's worth keeping, what do I throw out and can the block be cleaned up and honed or does that rust mean it's going to need a larger bore? is the cam dead or can the lobes be cleaned up? I haven't got to the front of the block yet so I don't know what grind it is. Too bad. Then engine looks like it had very few hours on it.

Sorry for my naivete. Just trying to learn. And also trying to get an engine in the car on a low budget. with plans for a 451 in the works.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 01:32 AM

Its gonna need a bore job.... now its a matter of HOW
MUCH.... I'd forget the cam also(but thats me... I dont
play with hyd cams in so called race engines)....
start pouring oil and rust breaker in the bores so
you can get it apart
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 01:42 AM

Find out how bad the rust is in that cylinder, you also need to know what existing the bore size is so you know if you can clean it up by boring or if it will need a sleeve Try sqirting some liquid wrench(not WD40 ) in that cylinder several times, take a wire brush or wire wheel on a drill motor and knock the heavy rust out of and then see if you can beg,borrow or buy one of the glaze breaker cylinder hones to smooth that bore up so the piston will come out Go from there. Do you have access to a competent crankshaft grinder? If so you may want to have the crankshaft offset ground to BB Chevy rod journal size and stroke the stock crankshaft to 3.91 stroke KB makes several really good sets of forged shelf pistons in different compression ratio for that combination using a 7.100 long H beam BB Chevy rod for the 440 blocks That combination ended up being quite a bit cheaper than using the stock Mopar size forged steel H beam rods and stroke on the last bracket motor I built for a customer Check it out before deciding, you may save some money and make more power Sorry for the rusted cylinder, been there done that
Posted By: FastmOp

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 01:58 AM

I have ran worse

clean that bore up with trans fluid and a scotchbrite pad. I know it's not ideal but it's the low buck motors that keep a guy playing instead of wrenching. If it smokes a little that's just part of cheep.

I built ford with a blower that had .020 deep sections of a couple bores rusted away. It ran like a top.
Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 02:34 AM

I haven't tried it since pulling the heads, but the engine does rotate a third turn. It's not rusted past the rings. Stupid question. If I drop the crank can I take the piston out the bottom end of the bore?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 02:36 AM

Quote:

I haven't tried it since pulling the heads, but the engine does rotate a third turn. It's not rusted past the rings. Stupid question. If I drop the crank can I take the piston out the bottom end of the bore?




No
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 02:47 AM

Quote:

I haven't tried it since pulling the heads, but the engine does rotate a third turn. It's not rusted past the rings. Stupid question. If I drop the crank can I take the piston out the bottom end of the bore?


Only if you break it into small pieces, I have seen cast pistons destroyed that way in the oil pan after a valve broke Get to scrubbing that rust away, it ain't hard
Posted By: Big Bad Bee

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 04:09 AM

Quote:

Find out how bad the rust is in that cylinder, you also need to know what existing the bore size is so you know if you can clean it up by boring or if it will need a sleeve Try sqirting some liquid wrench(not WD40 ) in that cylinder several times, take a wire brush or wire wheel on a drill motor and knock the heavy rust out of and then see if you can beg,borrow or buy one of the glaze breaker cylinder hones to smooth that bore up so the piston will come out Go from there. Do you have access to a competent crankshaft grinder? If so you may want to have the crankshaft offset ground to BB Chevy rod journal size and stroke the stock crankshaft to 3.91 stroke KB makes several really good sets of forged shelf pistons in different compression ratio for that combination using a 7.100 long H beam BB Chevy rod for the 440 blocks That combination ended up being quite a bit cheaper than using the stock Mopar size forged steel H beam rods and stroke on the last bracket motor I built for a customer Check it out before deciding, you may save some money and make more power Sorry for the rusted cylinder, been there done that




I DO have a competent crankshaft grinder. An old friend who specializes in crank grinding for big diesels. He does hotrods too. You've got me thinking... Maybe I sell my 400 stroker crank and have him turn my forged 440 crank and buy a set of rods and pistons... Hmmmmm.
Posted By: slippery440

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 11:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm betting on rust in the cylinders first and then a stuck valve in a guide Please let us know what you find




Ding! Ding! Ding! Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!

Well, here's what I found.

7 of the bores look like this.


Give or take carbon, but they all look nice. That is except for #8 which looks like this.

#6 is okay but you can see where some moisture was in the head affecting that plug, and #8's valves were rusted up nicely...


All the lifters looked pretty with the exception of a couple that looked like they may not be rotating in the bore real good. smooth but black stains. the two on the back end were gummy as you can see and the cam looked gummy too. The lifters came out with a little coaxing gooey orange in the top from rust but still functioned. The cam looked pretty except for the back end which looked like this.


You think thats why it didn't turn over? Mabe you should of figured that out before you ask people for oppinions on why it won't turn over. Looks like a junk scrap yard motor to me. THE BIG GUY
Posted By: cheapstreetdustr

Re: Crank won't turn... Help. UPDATE... UGH! - 08/22/11 02:30 PM

i think that was a running motor up until the point the mudd boggers vehicle rolled over and the motor sucked or got water in it..
sorry to see this...it ugly..

cheapst
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