Posted By: Unknown_element
Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 01:20 AM
Im in the process of building a 727. How can i build it to handle a 600hp street motor, and strip on the weekends?
Bulletproof 727?
Posted By: Diablo
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 01:57 AM
In my mind you don't have to do much. Make sure you have the 4 set plantaries and the better sprag and a shift kit and you should be fine. pretty much a trans from a motor home has all of that.
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 09:38 AM
super sprag & billet steel drum for a street car, for safety!
Talk to CRT here for more info!
Talk to CRT here for more info!
Posted By: QWK_ENUF
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 11:34 AM
Quote:
super sprag & billet steel drum for a street car, for safety!
Talk to CRT here for more info!
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 02:11 PM
There is no such thing as a bulletproof 727 , put enough power to even the best built unit with all the expensive parts and you can still turn it into a pile of scrap .
I just built one for a 650ish HP engine , but it's not the HP its the TORQUE that will hurt it , it wasn't cheap and I didn't go all out .
A+A ultimate sprag $175
A+A Front Billet Steel drum $695
4 pinion planet with a steel spline front and rollerized $425
Red lined soild front Band $?
Kevlar lined rear band $?
Red Alto Clutches and Kolene Steels $?
Teflon seals on front drum and input shaft $?
Billet front and rear servos $180
Billet spring retainer for the front drum $45
CRT Low band apply reverse manual VB $275
4.2 Lever $35
HD front band strut $25
Modified stator support $90
Billet pump gears $175
I'm sure I missed something , I have to go thru the pile of receipts still
I just built one for a 650ish HP engine , but it's not the HP its the TORQUE that will hurt it , it wasn't cheap and I didn't go all out .
A+A ultimate sprag $175
A+A Front Billet Steel drum $695
4 pinion planet with a steel spline front and rollerized $425
Red lined soild front Band $?
Kevlar lined rear band $?
Red Alto Clutches and Kolene Steels $?
Teflon seals on front drum and input shaft $?
Billet front and rear servos $180
Billet spring retainer for the front drum $45
CRT Low band apply reverse manual VB $275
4.2 Lever $35
HD front band strut $25
Modified stator support $90
Billet pump gears $175
I'm sure I missed something , I have to go thru the pile of receipts still
Posted By: domingo
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 02:13 PM
A bulletproof and cheap 727 is called a TH400
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 02:17 PM
Quote:
A bulletproof and cheap 727 is called a TH400
I doubt that you can't just pull one out of a pickup and throw it your race or hot street motor ...
People go to the TH400 because of the design , NOT the cost .
Posted By: domingo
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 02:21 PM
Well, I dont know....but if you are talking about a real buletproof 727, I think the TH400 ends upo being cheaper and a lot stronger in the end....thats when you go for the all bells and whistles 727 of coourse with the rollerized shebang and all.
Posted By: maximum entropy
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 02:51 PM
Quote:Quote:
super sprag & billet steel drum for a street car, for safety!
Talk to CRT here for more info!
Posted By: Otherlane
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 09:41 PM
I just a video on bill meyers dodge with an A&A 727 and at 3500 pounds running 8.20.I dont know if he has broken anything but sounds like the 727 holds up to alot if built right
Posted By: TRENDZ
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 09/30/08 10:45 PM
All my buddys are gm guys. None of them make the power that I have, and they all weigh less than me. I can tell you this... None of them have anywhere near the trouble free operation that my A&A built 727 had. My car=3700lb, 3.50 rear gear,8.85/155 best. Trans was freshened once in 5 years after a rear end failure. Cost is a factor, but at a certain level, both trans' will cost$$$
Posted By: dave571
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 03:55 AM
I got a bunch of stuff from A and A and couldn't be happier with the service or the product.
How much cheaper can a TH400 possibly be? You still have to beef it up, and then adapt it to the dodge motor.
I spent around 1K for what I needed. Heavy duty clutches, billet drum, 16pin sprague, low band apply VB, ridged KD band etc.. etc..
Posted By: LA360
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 04:14 AM
It doesn't matter what make of trans it is really, most using high end parts end up costing the same. I have dealt with both John Cope and Rick Allison and was happy with both. Would deal with them again in the future for my next transmission build.
AL....
AL....
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 10/01/08 04:37 AM
Posted By: dave571
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 05:32 AM
No one likes to burn money, but I guess the question becomes, how much are your feet worth?
I've seen a 500 hp small block scatter a 727 like it was made of fine china.
That was with a manual valve body, a basic rebuild kit, and an extremely knowledgable local builder.
Sprague failure blew it right out the bottom. You could see into the case, and actually look at the steels and clutches that were left of the front drum(drum long gone.) Only blind luck it blew out the bottom, instead of up through the floor.
I dimantled my own following the incident, to find I only had 2 of 12 oneway springs remaining in my own 727. I could have blown the same way at any time.
All with less than 600 hp.
I've seen a 500 hp small block scatter a 727 like it was made of fine china.
That was with a manual valve body, a basic rebuild kit, and an extremely knowledgable local builder.
Sprague failure blew it right out the bottom. You could see into the case, and actually look at the steels and clutches that were left of the front drum(drum long gone.) Only blind luck it blew out the bottom, instead of up through the floor.
I dimantled my own following the incident, to find I only had 2 of 12 oneway springs remaining in my own 727. I could have blown the same way at any time.
All with less than 600 hp.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/01/08 07:48 AM
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/01/08 07:56 AM
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 08:58 AM
Quote:
No one likes to burn money, but I guess the question becomes, how much are your feet worth?
I've seen a 500 hp small block scatter a 727 like it was made of fine china.
That was with a manual valve body, a basic rebuild kit, and an extremely knowledgable local builder.
Sprague failure blew it right out the bottom. You could see into the case, and actually look at the steels and clutches that were left of the front drum(drum long gone.) Only blind luck it blew out the bottom, instead of up through the floor.
I dimantled my own following the incident, to find I only had 2 of 12 oneway springs remaining in my own 727. I could have blown the same way at any time.
All with less than 600 hp.
That is what alot of people dont realize!
Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 10:03 AM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
A bulletproof and cheap 727 is called a TH400
I doubt that you can't just pull one out of a pickup and throw it your race or hot street motor ...
People go to the TH400 because of the design , NOT the cost .
they are as strong if not stronger than a P/G out of the box. I have a stock P/G in my Duster using Alto clutches and a good band with a t brake. Over a few hundred passes and zero problems with 6000 + RPM launches.Took it down about 75 runs ago and only replaced a few clutches that show very minor wear and only did that because I had them sitting in the shop. Otherwise I would have buttoned it right back up. I am sure a 400 is just as durable. Cost is much cheaper than building a comparable 727.
You're beating that "Dead Horse" again Fred..
Happy B-Day..I vote P/G too, but some don't get it or just don't want to hear it..
If you have to put a Torqueflite in it..Call these guys..
Pro Trans.. Dave Smith
Street: 42156 10th St W
Lancaster, ca 93534-
Phone: (661) 940-7400
Chris..
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 02:11 PM
Quote:
saw John's post on cost over 2100.00 then came across this which is about the same P/G unit I use from Trans Specialties.cheap and strong. they build one for 1800 Hp with after market parts for 2800.00
Quote:
TH-400 Chevy Racing w/Reverse Manual Valve Body [40011] $1,267.00
Rated to 850 HP Deep steel pan Reverse manual valve body
Well I stand corrected, but don't forget to add $300 - $500 for either the adaptor OR an ultrabell .
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/01/08 02:22 PM
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 02:24 PM
Quote:Quote:Well I stand corrected, but don't forget to add $300 - $500 for either the adaptor OR an ultrabell .Quote:
saw John's post on cost over 2100.00 then came across this which is about the same P/G unit I use from Trans Specialties.cheap and strong. they build one for 1800 Hp with after market parts for 2800.00
Quote:
TH-400 Chevy Racing w/Reverse Manual Valve Body [40011] $1,267.00
Rated to 850 HP Deep steel pan Reverse manual valve body
with that included the T 400 is still a bargin and stronger
oh I forgot fabbing up a new crossmember also .
I'll stop feeding the dead horse for you ...
Posted By: B3422W5
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 03:15 PM
Quote:
Mancini Rebuild Kit, and a manual valve body and the right person to build it. Should be all you need
Remember guys he said 600hp not 1600hp
No Need to go wasting money.
My car stripped the planets at not much above 600 horse a few years ago in a pro built (JPT)tranny.
The list that John had i think included the steel planet as a upgrade.
At the end of the day, all the hard parts are what 30 years od and were never intended for 600+ horse high torque use on a regular basis.
Sure you might get lucky, but it just a matter of time, as i found out. When those tranny's were made a 4+ inch crank was decades from even being thought about in the smallblock world. As far as big blocks, i am not sure.
Posted By: Thumperdart
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 03:28 PM
Been runnin mid to low 10`s w/a basic rebuilt 727 w/a Stock drum, bolt in sprag and good kit and a revese cheetah v/body. No problems and at my last freshen Darrell parks said it looked perfect after 4 years and freshened it anyways and rollerized it while in there. Total cost for the freshen, bad a$$ kit and rollers was $680.00. Works awsome at 7000+ rpms. Don`t need much at 600hp although the good drum might be added insurance.
Posted By: turbobitt
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 05:19 PM
Quote:Quote:
A bulletproof and cheap 727 is called a TH400
I doubt that you can't just pull one out of a pickup and throw it your race or hot street motor ...
People go to the TH400 because of the design , NOT the cost .
I have a Turbo Buick with a TH400 and recently built it to handle about 1200 HP. This is what I spent.
Billet input - $299
Billet intermediate - $229
Modified direct drum with super sprag(common failure point above 750HP) - $579
Trans brake - $389
Red eagle clutches ? (same price as any other transmission)
Rollerized rear output - done by myself
Pump mods to protect engine thrust - Done by myself
Center support mods to stabilize direct drum - Done by myself
There is at least $1500 in hard parts not including clutches and band. These transmissions are very good becasue they stack the clutches on the shifts but become unreliable after about 750HP and are known for intermediate sprag failures. This is why I bought the super sprag drum. Some of the extream TH400 use a direct drum that eliminates the intermediate sprag and makes it more like a 727.
Posted By: dOc !
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 05:45 PM
Quote:
I've seen a 500 hp small block scatter a 727 like it was made of fine china.
Is this topic about a BLOW-UP or BULLET "proof" 727 ?
From what I know .... the only way to BLOW UP a 727 is to have a sprag fail then the front drum come apart. The "cure" there ? ... a drum that will withstand 2.5 engine rpms. .......Correct ?
BULLETproof ? .... aka lasting forever ?? .... at some of the prices some of these rebuilders want -- I would hope that these trannies last until the year 2100 !!
Posted By: markz528
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 08:07 PM
Quote:
None of them have anywhere near the trouble free operation that my A&A built 727 had. My car=3700lb, 3.50 rear gear,8.85/155 best. Trans was freshened once in 5 years after a rear end failure.
I hope I have the same luck. I just picked up my new A&A 727 on Monday. My other tranny lasted 50 and 21 runs.
Posted By: 70satelliteguy
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/01/08 11:08 PM
"None of them have anywhere near the trouble free operation that my A&A built 727 had. My car=3700lb, 3.50 rear gear,8.85/155 best"
I also have a 727 filled with A&A parts and although it was $$$ it is staying together and works flawlessly for the past 2 years and we race almost every Friday night during the summer.
70 Sport Satellite, 3550 with driver,572 Motor with A&A Transbrake,1.31 60 fts. 8.87/156 mph
Mike
p.s. Rick Allison is also a very nice guy.
I also have a 727 filled with A&A parts and although it was $$$ it is staying together and works flawlessly for the past 2 years and we race almost every Friday night during the summer.
70 Sport Satellite, 3550 with driver,572 Motor with A&A Transbrake,1.31 60 fts. 8.87/156 mph
Mike
p.s. Rick Allison is also a very nice guy.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/01/08 11:52 PM
Posted By: Quiksilver II
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/02/08 12:17 AM
Most of my 727 failures happened during a rearend failure.
after I moved away from the 8 3/4 and quit breaking gears my sprag initiated explosions went away. (Knock on wood)I have seen the remnants of a 727 explosion in the pits. I have no idea how this could happen.
Rick.
after I moved away from the 8 3/4 and quit breaking gears my sprag initiated explosions went away. (Knock on wood)I have seen the remnants of a 727 explosion in the pits. I have no idea how this could happen.
Rick.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/02/08 12:19 AM
I must be lucky, I have never lost a 727. The are brutal strong, very little aftermarket parts. Better band, Low band apply Valve Body, basic transmission tricks. Run one season after season, no trouble ever. Between 600-700hp, in cars 3000-3500 lbs. I always have always used blanket or sheild too.
I switched to a PowerGlide this year, they are very strong, and cheap to build also, only thing aftermarket I added in these trannys is Clutch hub, duel ring servo, valve body, good clutches, deep pan etc, stock 1.76 planets etc. Stock Cases are very weak, hard to find one that isn't cracked somewere. About one out of half dozen was good.
I switched to a PowerGlide this year, they are very strong, and cheap to build also, only thing aftermarket I added in these trannys is Clutch hub, duel ring servo, valve body, good clutches, deep pan etc, stock 1.76 planets etc. Stock Cases are very weak, hard to find one that isn't cracked somewere. About one out of half dozen was good.
Posted By: Quiksilver II
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/02/08 12:22 AM
How can a 727 completely distroy its self and the mid section of a Barracuda in the pits?
Rick.
Rick.
Posted By: SCDaytona
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/02/08 01:34 AM
Quote:
not always the case with many guys.
Same goes for the glides. Seen many broken ones over the years.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/02/08 01:55 AM
Posted By: dannysbee
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/02/08 02:06 AM
I got a buddy that used to break a glide every time he went to the track. He even broke the ones from Mikes I think it is out of California. They were like 3500 a pop 10 years ago. Never did get to see it make a full pass. But I did see him stab it about 3 times one night an run a 4.80 in the 1/8 some kind of a Rodac with a 871 in a 40 ford pickup.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/02/08 02:21 AM
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/02/08 02:41 AM
Ask Nick @ CompuFlow.. Over 800 HP and over 500 runs on his tranny from Benny @ Enhanced in Cleveland. If in Ohio, you can not go wrong.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/02/08 02:46 AM
Posted By: sunroofgtx
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/02/08 02:51 AM
216-281-0303 Benny.. Sorry, wish I had more. He does 727's, 904's, fabbed 904's with pushbuttons. Call, you will like. 
Ask him for the birthday special. Not saying anyone else here can't build one, but I've had the same car for 26 years, and have only had 2 tranny's in it, a street, and a race/street, both from him. You will stay in the triple digits for the build. But, there is definately talent here on the board.
Ask him for the birthday special. Not saying anyone else here can't build one, but I've had the same car for 26 years, and have only had 2 tranny's in it, a street, and a race/street, both from him. You will stay in the triple digits for the build. But, there is definately talent here on the board.
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by moparts - 10/02/08 02:56 AM
Posted By: Anonymous
Post deleted by Defbob - 10/02/08 03:06 AM
Posted By: SCDaytona
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/03/08 01:44 AM
Quote:
my 900.00 P/glide handles close to 900 hp now makes 8.50 passes and has over 200 runs on it. no high dollar stuff here
My fellow Mopar small block racers and I ran 904's for years and put usually 300+ pases on them before freshening and I can guarantee we had less than &700 in them back then. But this post is about bullet proof 727,s not 904's or glides.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/03/08 02:36 AM
"Bulletproof" is one of those words that are over used by those marketing guys. Nothing is bulletproof. You have a combination, and you build it within your budget. You can throw tons of money at any trans and make it work, do you need too? I like to put my combo together, with less fabrication. I also like to keep a Dodge a Dodge and a Chevy a Chevy...Ok I'll get off my soap box now. 
Posted By: 451Mopar
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/04/08 05:03 AM
Quote:
I just built one for a 650ish HP engine , but it's not the HP its the TORQUE that will hurt it , it wasn't cheap and I didn't go all out .
A+A ultimate sprag $175
A+A Front Billet Steel drum $695
4 pinion planet with a steel spline front and rollerized $425
Red lined soild front Band $?
Kevlar lined rear band $?
Red Alto Clutches and Kolene Steels $?
Teflon seals on front drum and input shaft $?
Billet front and rear servos $180
Billet spring retainer for the front drum $45
CRT Low band apply reverse manual VB $275
4.2 Lever $35
HD front band strut $25
Modified stator support $90
Billet pump gears $175
I'm sure I missed something , I have to go thru the pile of receipts still
Sounds nice. What is modified on the stator support? or what is the benifit?
I plan to rebuild my 727 before installing the new 500" stroker, and I plan on using most of the parts you outlined above, except the valve body. I need a standard pattern valve body, and I haven't decided to go full manual or just use my stock valve body with a TF-2 shift kit?
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/04/08 04:11 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:Quote:
A bulletproof and cheap 727 is called a TH400
I doubt that you can't just pull one out of a pickup and throw it your race or hot street motor ...
People go to the TH400 because of the design , NOT the cost .
they are as strong if not stronger than a P/G out of the box. I have a stock P/G in my Duster using Alto clutches and a good band with a t brake. Over a few hundred passes and zero problems with 6000 + RPM launches.Took it down about 75 runs ago and only replaced a few clutches that show very minor wear and only did that because I had them sitting in the shop. Otherwise I would have buttoned it right back up. I am sure a 400 is just as durable. Cost is much cheaper than building a comparable 727.
You're beating that "Dead Horse" again Fred..
I vote P/G too, but some don't get it or just don't want to hear it..
If you have to put a Torqueflite in it..Call these guys..
Pro Trans.. Dave Smith
Street: 42156 10th St W
Lancaster, ca 93534-
Phone: (661) 940-7400
Chris..
Best in the world when it comes to torqueflytes
Posted By: dizuster
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/04/08 09:03 PM
Quote:
my 900.00 P/glide handles close to 900 hp now makes 8.50 passes and has over 200 runs on it. no high dollar stuff here
Fred, but your car has enough power to only need 2 gears. Put a power glide in most 600hp cars on this board, and they'll slow down...
Here's my list in terms of strength.
1) Bolt in sprag for strength/safety.
2) Rebuild kit, with good clutches and bands.
3) Reverse Manual valve body.
That's less then $500, and at this point you can make a lot of power on just those 3 things.
We ran our NSS 500" 10.50 car at one point with just that for 500 passes without ever even freshening it. And even before and after freshening it, the trans never broke (aside for a few converters...)
Now if you want more safety on top of that go ahead and put a low band apply valve body in it. But you don't need a low band apply valve body and a billet drum. One or the other covers you on safety. I personally would put a billet drum in it before the LBA because the LBA drives me nuts on the street. But if I were on a budget, I'd put the LBA in it and forget about it.
Beyond that, next strength mods can be planetary's, then pump gears, then billet output, then billet input. But you're talking mega power at that point.
Also, if you buy a valve body with resonable line pressue, you do not need billet servo's, billet pistons, etc... Unless you have a trans brake or LBA, the rear servo is only turned on in reverse...And even if it did break a servo at that point, all you have to do is take the pan off of it. Easy swap...
Band struts can easily be made yourself. Just a simple bridge on the back of it will suffice for strength. Pump mod's are right on CRT's website, and easily done yourself.
People run 904 stuff in 10sec cars all the time, and some of you guys are worried about a 727 at 600hp?
My
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/04/08 10:03 PM
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 10/06/08 05:50 PM
Quote:Quote:
I just built one for a 650ish HP engine , but it's not the HP its the TORQUE that will hurt it , it wasn't cheap and I didn't go all out .
A+A ultimate sprag $175
A+A Front Billet Steel drum $695
4 pinion planet with a steel spline front and rollerized $425
Red lined soild front Band $?
Kevlar lined rear band $?
Red Alto Clutches and Kolene Steels $?
Teflon seals on front drum and input shaft $?
Billet front and rear servos $180
Billet spring retainer for the front drum $45
CRT Low band apply reverse manual VB $275
4.2 Lever $35
HD front band strut $25
Modified stator support $90
Billet pump gears $175
I'm sure I missed something , I have to go thru the pile of receipts still
Sounds nice. What is modified on the stator support? or what is the benifit?
I plan to rebuild my 727 before installing the new 500" stroker, and I plan on using most of the parts you outlined above, except the valve body. I need a standard pattern valve body, and I haven't decided to go full manual or just use my stock valve body with a TF-2 shift kit?
Check CRT site for pictures of it , I needed one in a hurry and bought it , now I modify my own . It gives a larger path for the oil applying the front clutch .
Depending on the power you may have to go to a RMVB if you stay with a 727. Talk to John Cope about what you are doing , he'll steer you straight .
Posted By: 6o4o
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 06:47 AM
Thumperdart - can I quote your comment when you are with no legs in a wheel chair?
Past year I saw 2 blown up 727, one was a friend that didn't listen to me for 2 years on getting rid of this no low band apply VB and stock drum.. this behind an about 600-700HP not blown 500CID on a light car. After he destroyed 4 (!!) ultra-sprags in the past 2 years he finally blew up the 727! Here the pics from last year:
http://www.mopars.ch/discus/messages/29/13889.html?1215862256
He just heard the drum spin up and pulled his legs before 0.1seconds later that 727 blew up and flew through the kevlar shield and the floor where he had 0.1 seconds before his legs...
Same happened just 1-2 month ago at another race track here in Germany...driver was also extremly lucky!
I also had already 2 727 behind a STOCK 383 and 340 with TOTALLY bend and destroyed sprag! The customer said it doesn't drive in D -> front drum spinning at 2.2x speeD! He just needed to try to drive and go over 4000RPM or so and also that 727 had blown up and this behind a stock 383 and stock 340! No need for 500HP! Even 250HP are enough!!!
dizuster - EVERY 3rd 727 I rebuild is you know why?! Because people think they can install a shiftkit (TF-2 for example) without reinforcing the rear servo. 100 miles later they come to me because their rear band and drum is totally destroyed because of rear servo failure!
That's the FIRST thing I reinforce when installing a shiftkit, otherwise I won't install a shiftkit, period.
my 2 cents...
Past year I saw 2 blown up 727, one was a friend that didn't listen to me for 2 years on getting rid of this no low band apply VB and stock drum.. this behind an about 600-700HP not blown 500CID on a light car. After he destroyed 4 (!!) ultra-sprags in the past 2 years he finally blew up the 727! Here the pics from last year:
http://www.mopars.ch/discus/messages/29/13889.html?1215862256
He just heard the drum spin up and pulled his legs before 0.1seconds later that 727 blew up and flew through the kevlar shield and the floor where he had 0.1 seconds before his legs...
Same happened just 1-2 month ago at another race track here in Germany...driver was also extremly lucky!
I also had already 2 727 behind a STOCK 383 and 340 with TOTALLY bend and destroyed sprag! The customer said it doesn't drive in D -> front drum spinning at 2.2x speeD! He just needed to try to drive and go over 4000RPM or so and also that 727 had blown up and this behind a stock 383 and stock 340! No need for 500HP! Even 250HP are enough!!!
dizuster - EVERY 3rd 727 I rebuild is you know why?! Because people think they can install a shiftkit (TF-2 for example) without reinforcing the rear servo. 100 miles later they come to me because their rear band and drum is totally destroyed because of rear servo failure!
That's the FIRST thing I reinforce when installing a shiftkit, otherwise I won't install a shiftkit, period.
my 2 cents...
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 11:03 AM
Posted By: atoetly
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 04:12 PM
I've never broke my 727 and yes I have spent alot of money to make it good but I'm fine with that. Quite honestly I would rather race tricycles that to molest my mopar with a GM transmission
Posted By: Otherlane
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 04:37 PM
I brought a trans from joe at tranzact and he said it will be good for 950 hp but I know in the back of my mind that doesn't mean it will hold up.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 06:43 PM
Quote:
I brought a trans from joe at tranzact and he said it will be good for 950 hp but I know in the back of my mind that doesn't mean it will hold up.
Exactly , NOTHING is bulletproof , if you make something bulletproof someone will make a BETTER BULLET
Posted By: cudabunch
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 07:06 PM
I would PM 7secCuda and ask who does his.He has some horses riding up front of his 727.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 07:50 PM
I'll give an example of just one of the 727's I've built mainly because I know it's history and what it's been through!
I abused a home built 727 at the track and on the street for a couple of years.
It was in a 425+ HP 440 and got driven way more than a strip only car and saw lots of heat cycles, block long burnouts, hard launches at the dragstrip etc.
I used a Transtar rebuild kit with Raybestos clutches, a Transgo TF-2 shift kit, deep pan from a later model truck and a Neal Chance convertor.
I pulled it apart to freshed it for the guy that bought my car and it looked PERFECT inside. The clutches hadn't even wore off the stamped in "Raybestos" or the date that was on them!
It's now behind a 550+ HP Hemi in the same car and still bangin' shifts.
A lot of it has to do with making sure the clearances are set correctly, everything is meticulously clean and you start with a core that has good hard parts to begin with.
John's list makes me convulse when I think about how much people spend in the "trick of the week" when they really don't need it.
Sure, if it's a full-on 700HP fire breathing animal you'd better do the upgrades he has listed but other than that.... 
I abused a home built 727 at the track and on the street for a couple of years.
It was in a 425+ HP 440 and got driven way more than a strip only car and saw lots of heat cycles, block long burnouts, hard launches at the dragstrip etc.
I used a Transtar rebuild kit with Raybestos clutches, a Transgo TF-2 shift kit, deep pan from a later model truck and a Neal Chance convertor.
I pulled it apart to freshed it for the guy that bought my car and it looked PERFECT inside. The clutches hadn't even wore off the stamped in "Raybestos" or the date that was on them!
It's now behind a 550+ HP Hemi in the same car and still bangin' shifts.
A lot of it has to do with making sure the clearances are set correctly, everything is meticulously clean and you start with a core that has good hard parts to begin with.
John's list makes me convulse when I think about how much people spend in the "trick of the week" when they really don't need it.
Sure, if it's a full-on 700HP fire breathing animal you'd better do the upgrades he has listed but other than that....
Posted By: DJVCuda
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 08:21 PM
14 second 318 dart on big block dart has a drum explosion, you dont need to be making 1000000 hp for a drum to explode.
http://www.bigblockdart.com/index.php/topic,35317.msg350609.html#msg350609 http://www.bigblockdart.com/index.php/topic,35317.0.html
Posted By: Steve1118
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/13/09 08:45 PM
999 times out a thousand it's not the build or bad parts that causes a 727 to come apart....it's the driver.
Posted By: dvw
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/14/09 01:48 AM
dizuster - EVERY 3rd 727 I rebuild is you know why?! Because people think they can install a shiftkit (TF-2 for example) without reinforcing the rear servo. 100 miles later they come to me because their rear band and drum is totally destroyed because of rear servo failure!
That's the FIRST thing I reinforce when installing a shiftkit, otherwise I won't install a shiftkit, period.
For what its worth I've been building 727s for over 25 years. I have never had a drum failure. I've had a few rear servo failures in plow trucks. As Dizuster stated the rear servo is only appied in reverse or low band apply/reworked stock valve body. If you use a Turbo Action manual valve body the servo is only used in reverse. I've used stock drums many times but can understand using a aftermaket unit for saftey. Has anyone ever seen an aluminum or billet steel drum explode? I have not. A 600hp car at 3500lbs will go along time with standard Rabestos tan clutches,stock low roller clutch,and a Turbo action valve body if assembled correctly. By the way, I built that N/SS trans that went over 500 passes.
Doug
my 2 cents...
That's the FIRST thing I reinforce when installing a shiftkit, otherwise I won't install a shiftkit, period.
For what its worth I've been building 727s for over 25 years. I have never had a drum failure. I've had a few rear servo failures in plow trucks. As Dizuster stated the rear servo is only appied in reverse or low band apply/reworked stock valve body. If you use a Turbo Action manual valve body the servo is only used in reverse. I've used stock drums many times but can understand using a aftermaket unit for saftey. Has anyone ever seen an aluminum or billet steel drum explode? I have not. A 600hp car at 3500lbs will go along time with standard Rabestos tan clutches,stock low roller clutch,and a Turbo action valve body if assembled correctly. By the way, I built that N/SS trans that went over 500 passes.
Doug
my 2 cents...
Posted By: dOc !
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/14/09 02:16 AM
Quote:
For what its worth I've been building 727s for over 25 years. I have never had a drum failure. I've had a few rear servo failures in plow trucks.
I've used stock drums many times but can understand using a aftermaket unit for saftey. Has anyone ever seen an aluminum or billet steel drum explode? I have not.
Dittos to the above.
And as far as these rear servo failures ? ... it HAS to be these HUGE line-pressures that some of these guys are running.
A bullet-proof 727 ? ... as far as never a part failing ? ...I don't know who could ever GUARANTEE that.
Now as far as the trans BLOWING UP ? .... again - dittos to the above. Who here knows of a trans ever exploding with a billet steel or alum front drum ?
And .... who here can give a senerio of BLOWING UP a 727 .... even on purpose ? You certainly could-not do it under engine power. The motor could not RPM the trans high enough(even with a failed sprag)...... to make that aftermarket drum come-apart.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/14/09 12:32 PM
The billet steel drums have been tested and they do not explode at the rpms they have been tested to , which are higher than most engines would ever overspeed too , the TCS drum distorts around 18,000 rpm , it's junk , the A+A drums has been spun over 20,000 rpm , maybe 24k ??? and has not distorted ...
Alum , I ASSuME they have been spun tested with similar results , stock drums explode because of the way they are made , a casting
Alum , I ASSuME they have been spun tested with similar results , stock drums explode because of the way they are made , a casting
Posted By: thecarfarmer
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/14/09 12:44 PM
QFT:
We pretty much all accept this holds true for engines; why not for transmissions?
If the TH400 was inherently superior, why would guys have adapted the 727 behind BBC engines back 'in the day' for use in funny cars, etc.?
The 727 has one well-documented issue: the overrunning clutch is prone to failure if the load is removed under power (i.e. driveshaft or axle failure). This mandates disassembly and inspection if this occurs.
IMHO, it's largely assembly techniques and operator responsibility. And, yes, a little bit of luck.
-Bill
Quote:
...snip...
A lot of it has to do with making sure the clearances are set correctly, everything is meticulously clean and you start with a core that has good hard parts to begin with.
...another snip...
We pretty much all accept this holds true for engines; why not for transmissions?
If the TH400 was inherently superior, why would guys have adapted the 727 behind BBC engines back 'in the day' for use in funny cars, etc.?
The 727 has one well-documented issue: the overrunning clutch is prone to failure if the load is removed under power (i.e. driveshaft or axle failure). This mandates disassembly and inspection if this occurs.
IMHO, it's largely assembly techniques and operator responsibility. And, yes, a little bit of luck.
-Bill
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/14/09 02:06 PM
Quote:
The 727 has one well-documented issue: the overrunning clutch is prone to failure if the load is removed under power (i.e. driveshaft or axle failure). This mandates disassembly and inspection if this occurs.
Quite a few members here (myself included) have recommended that the trans. be inspected after racers have posted driveshaft and axle failures. More people need to spread the word that this is a requirement with a torqueflite and not an option after driveline failure!
The only reason I brought up the cleanliness part is I've had to go through and re-do transmissions that were done by big name shops. Honestly a monkey could've done a better job rebuilding one from what I saw! It was obvious the transmission had been burnt up before being rebuilt and they didn't even bother to completely disassemble and clean the valvebody!
Guy went to all the trouble to ship it to Kansas from Arizona thinking it was a good piece.... 
Posted By: mopardartman
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/14/09 07:52 PM
Is't that from doing burn outs in first gear?
Posted By: Otherlane
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/14/09 08:01 PM
I hear after doing a burnout and you put your car in neutral to clear the engine out you have to move about 12 inches before racing it.This suppose to have the sprags.
Posted By: 6o4o
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/25/09 05:31 AM
don't know about you guys, but I see broken rear servo spring retainers about on a monthly basis! Just got a 727 on my desk with broken retainer, broken reverse band arm, rear servo and also rear band and drum burned up... TF-2 kit installed with pressure plate at 0 position (as recommended for street use).
So to me installing a billet rear servo or at least a reinforced spring retainer is a MUST with a street TF-2 kit.
Many guys often only race those cars, we DRIVE them AND race them. In a few weeks we got more shifts and miles on the trans then some guys will ever put at the race track...
So to me installing a billet rear servo or at least a reinforced spring retainer is a MUST with a street TF-2 kit.
Many guys often only race those cars, we DRIVE them AND race them. In a few weeks we got more shifts and miles on the trans then some guys will ever put at the race track...
Posted By: dOc !
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/25/09 12:55 PM
Quote:
don't know about you guys, but I see broken rear servo spring retainers about on a monthly basis! Just got a 727 on my desk with broken retainer, broken reverse band arm, rear servo and also rear band and drum burned up
... TF-2 kit installed with pressure plate at 0 position (as recommended for street use).
So to me installing a billet rear servo or at least a reinforced spring retainer is a MUST with a street TF-2 kit.
How much line-pressure are you running ?
Posted By: 6o4o
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 09:05 AM
never measured it... but the minimum line pressure you can run with the TF-2 kit...
Posted By: dOc !
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 12:10 PM
I am not familiar with that TF-2 kit at all..... but if this is like some other kits or valve-bodies ... NO WONDER you are breaking rear servos.
With a std VB .. you get as much as 2.5 times the line-pressure in reverse to the rear servo...as you do in forward gears.
So .. if you are running some of these high line-pressures that some say they are running(165 psi!) ... that rear servo is seeing over 400 psi !!
All I can say is ..
With a std VB .. you get as much as 2.5 times the line-pressure in reverse to the rear servo...as you do in forward gears.
So .. if you are running some of these high line-pressures that some say they are running(165 psi!) ... that rear servo is seeing over 400 psi !!
All I can say is ..
Posted By: 6packattk
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 12:38 PM
Would make me not go backwards much like ever,there has to be a way to depressurize that or why would you ever use a tf-2 kit at all.I was thinking of adding a shift kit but may just go turbo action valve body like I always have.Surely there has to be a fix for that.Don`t want to steal post but this got my attention.....
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 01:59 PM
Quote:
Would make me not go backwards much like ever,there has to be a way to depressurize that or why would you ever use a tf-2 kit at all.I was thinking of adding a shift kit but may just go turbo action valve body like I always have.Surely there has to be a fix for that.Don`t want to steal post but this got my attention.....
The fix is to get the billet retainer since all aftermarket valve bodies and kits RAISE LINE PRESSURE , reverse can be as high as 3 times line pressure. A low band apply VB with a heavier spring for reverse/low servo can also pop out the retainer .
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 02:31 PM
Quote:I don't think a factory regulator can be adjusted to go to anywhere near 165 psi. It would require a spring change at minimum.
So .. if you are running some of these high line-pressures that some say they are running(165 psi!) ... that rear servo is seeing over 400 psi !!
Posted By: Chris2581
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 02:47 PM
Quote:
999 times out a thousand it's not the build or bad parts that causes a 727 to come apart....it's the driver.
My car is not making huge horsepower,and my trans is a stock 727 using a Turbo Action Tranz Box kit,Cheetah valve body and their 3800 converter.
Posted By: 6packattk
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 02:51 PM
I must be lucky cause I have never had a servo or any other problem except wearing it out after 25 years,clutches and bands were shot,spun a kick down band once,cause I let a woman drive it and didn`t know she was a maniac,she didn`t even know it no longer had second,never let her drive again either I bought a heavy duty retainer on second build cause I bent the heck out of original pulling it.Well I learned something today about tranny`s, thanks guys
I bought a heavy duty retainer on second build cause I bent the heck out of original pulling it.Well I learned something today about tranny`s, thanks guys
Posted By: 11secondC
Re: Bulletproof 727? - 05/26/09 04:58 PM
Just had this very thing happen to mine end of last summer. Rev/lov servo retainer let go, shattered the rev/low servo, killed the band and the drum was in 2 pieces.
Trans had been together for 7+ years, with nothing more than red clutches and keolene steels with a TF-2 kit. Just last year I had swapped in a TA forward pattern low band apply mvb. Made it about 4 months after that.
As of saturday, it got a bolt in sprag, 4.2 lever, reinforced strut, billet rear servo, and new clutches/steels etc. I'll be happy if it goes another 7 years for me...
Trans had been together for 7+ years, with nothing more than red clutches and keolene steels with a TF-2 kit. Just last year I had swapped in a TA forward pattern low band apply mvb. Made it about 4 months after that.
As of saturday, it got a bolt in sprag, 4.2 lever, reinforced strut, billet rear servo, and new clutches/steels etc. I'll be happy if it goes another 7 years for me...