listen to your engine builder!!!

listen to your engine builder!!! - 05/29/11 08:36 AM

I should have listened to my engine builder better when he said it time to tear the engine down to check it out.
It has been in the car since 2003 and has had normal maintance, brad penn 20 50 oil, valves adjusted, etc. It has been a Good 10.90 - 11.20 car all these years with no issues, street driven some also.

Well at the Mo Power event I was racing the woman, her RR against my RR in time trials because she wanted to kick my butt so we lined them up and raced. She had a .001 red and I had a .008 red, she Won but at the big end I looked in my mirror and she was pulling over to the side of the track.
Long story short her RR dropped 2 valves in #5 cyl, bent 1 pushrod, and holed #5 piston. The block looks good yet, crank is good, and alum rods look fine, even the cyl is mark free, thats suprises me.
The Indy Sr heads had the Indy valves in them yet and just wasn't up to the power level anymore. The head looks like it needs some minor welding and milled flat with ALL NEW BETTER VALVES installed.

Now my engine builder will get more of my money because I didn't listen to him when he suggested to freshen it up this spring. I didn't have the extra cash at the time and I couldn't get the car out of storage in enought time to get it done before the Mo Power event.

Photos to come soon when I downsize them.
David

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! - 05/29/11 02:09 PM

Bummer

Posted By: ChrgrCuda

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! - 05/29/11 02:19 PM

Best thing is your wifes car didn't get squirrely and cause her to wreck, so I wouldn't sweat the engine damage. On another note, it must be really rough when you AND your wife have 69 RR's. Life must be really tough huh?

Posted By: bonefish

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! - 05/29/11 02:20 PM

she kicked your butt at the track,did she kick your butt when you got home.

all in all dont sound too bad,good luck.

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! - 05/29/11 06:30 PM

Quote:

I should have listened to my engine builder better when he said it time to tear the engine down to check it out.
It has been in the car since 2003

How many runs and miles were on it?
When a car isn't used much it is hard to accept it should be taken apart, inspected, and freshened. But depending on the power, parts used, etc. it could be a good idea.

It is easier to accept that a 700 hp engine that makes 150 passes per year needs to come apart every 2-3 years. Sometimes every year is cheap insurance like on a new combo/build to make sure everything is wearing properly. Valve springs on big roller cams, roller lifters, even aluminum rod, etc. may not last very long and replacing them often is cheaper than letting them break.

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 05/31/11 09:27 AM

I would say less then 500 street miles, and for passes A LOT. She would make as many passes as the track would allow her, we did open TNT's, many CC races, Mopar Nats races, and Norwalk wed night races.
I would not be surprised that there isn't 500 or more passes on it. I think that's a LOW number honestly. The motor made 615 hp on the dyno when it was built and is in her RR that weighs 3700 lbs race weight.

I took it apart further and the alum rods have NO marks on them anywhere, the Callies crank is Nice and mark free, the #5 cyl that had the valve issue doesn't have hardly any marks in it, and the other head just has a couple spots where a valve piece made a mark in the chamber. The cam and lifters also have no marks on them but MAY change them to something different if we can afford too. Even the bearings all LOOK GOOD but will get changed out.

I will have my engine builder, Graham Performance Engines take a look at the parts so I will know what is needed. The rods will get checked, block checked, head welded and reground flat, new valves, 1 pushrod, and a new set of pistons which I have as long as the block can stay .030 over, If not I will do another block up.
It could have been worse and I am Thankful she was alert enough to shut it down when she heard the noise. It probably saved us a bunch of Money and parts. She has been REALLY NICE TO ME LATELY wonder why. Ha Ha She wants to race again I can tell.
David

Attached picture 6659061-head.JPG

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 05/31/11 09:29 AM

Photo of the piston before I took it out.
David

Attached picture 6659062-piston.JPG

Posted By: 383man

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 05/31/11 12:34 PM

You mean her sweet blue Roadrunner right ?

Nice Runners you guys have. At least you can fix it and no oil got under the tires as thats one thing I always worry about if I blow an eng is getting oil under the tires. Ron

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 05/31/11 04:45 PM

Are you feeling lucky on the aluminum rods

Or do you want to give her another expereince in what to do when the motor breaks

I see that your going to have the rods check out, I have been told by many aluminum rod racers that anytime you break a part in a aluminum rod motor you MUST repalce the rods no matter what, especially if your compressing steel

Posted By: dennismopar73

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! - 05/31/11 08:23 PM

Quote:

I should have listened to my engine builder better when he said it time to tear the engine down to check it out.
It has been in the car since 2003 and has had normal maintance, brad penn 20 50 oil, valves adjusted, etc. It has been a Good 10.90 - 11.20 car all these years with no issues, street driven some also.

Well at the Mo Power event I was racing the woman, her RR against my RR in time trials because she wanted to kick my butt so we lined them up and raced. She had a .001 red and I had a .008 red, she Won but at the big end I looked in my mirror and she was pulling over to the side of the track.

sorry to hearthis,,, been together since 03, might been good to go thru it, but it may not have found that issue,, , appears to have lost a valve,,retainer/lock,or broken spring
i raced a guys car 2 years ago, had a new stoker 543, , made 2 laps , wouldnt run falling off a cliff, i wanted to load it up go home take it apart see what was wrong, the owner insisted i take it out 1 last time, , i should have loaded up, it let go at 1/8 mile, at 6200
only saved the heads, owner lost 5000 $ motor

Long story short her RR dropped 2 valves in #5 cyl, bent 1 pushrod, and holed #5 piston. The block looks good yet, crank is good, and alum rods look fine, even the cyl is mark free, thats suprises me.
The Indy Sr heads had the Indy valves in them yet and just wasn't up to the power level anymore. The head looks like it needs some minor welding and milled flat with ALL NEW BETTER VALVES installed.

Now my engine builder will get more of my money because I didn't listen to him when he suggested to freshen it up this spring. I didn't have the extra cash at the time and I couldn't get the car out of storage in enought time to get it done before the Mo Power event.

Photos to come soon when I downsize them.
David

Posted By: sasquatch

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! - 05/31/11 11:12 PM

Don't blame the valves. Even money that with that many miles and passes that the valve springs were toast, causing valve float. I would most likely replace the valves now but they were not the problem.
Todd

Posted By: 440Jim

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/01/11 01:03 AM

Quote:

It has been in the car since 2003 ...

I would say less then 500 street miles, and for passes A LOT. ...

I would not be surprised that there isn't 500 or more passes on it. I think that's a LOW number honestly. The motor made 615 hp on the dyno when it was built and is in her RR that weighs 3700 lbs race weight.

Thanks for sharing that. Hind sight is 20/20, so don't take this wrong; but I agree with the engine builder. And if the valve springs were not checked after that many years, they are suspect and could be checked now for future reference. I found a cracked valve lock during my winter inspection/freshen... caught it just in time!

I still hate to hear of the damage. Sometimes they last longer, sometimes one thing causes another.

Posted By: Kevins493

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/01/11 01:13 AM

Aluminum's strength depends greatly on how many load cycles are on it. At 500 passes I would recommend replacing them even if they check out. A guy here local found out why the hard way Sunday.

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/01/11 08:48 AM

We will check Everything out in Great detail before anything gets reused.
If he says replace anything I will do it.
All the locks and retainers are Good and no issues with them on disassembly.
I am just guessing on the passes but I agree everything has it's life cycle and when it's time to replace them it will get done.
Yes Ron that is her RR, blue one.
We will check all the spring pressures and if there is any suspect in the weak range I will let you know. Right now we are busy on customers engines so it may take a little while to get my stuff worked in.
I Appreciate the info guys and will take it all into concideration on the rebuild.
Thanks David

Posted By: 340RICK

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/02/11 12:49 AM

Man that sucks Dave

Good thing the engine builder is family

Im sure you guys will be bigger and better and ready to race soon

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/02/11 07:56 AM

Yea even though he is family he has other customers that need taken care of first.
He said probably inspect a few items soon and then in 2 weeks he can spend more time on it. The head will get taken fully apart and welded first so that part is done.
I am getting things ready as he tells me so it should go smoothly.
Thanks for the concerns and SHE IS WANTING to be RACING ASAP.
I told her she needs to cook him GOOD meals and he will be there every night for a little bit. Ha Ha
David

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/05/11 10:09 AM

Update on motor,
saturday at work we took the other head apart and no broken springs on it either. All locks, retainers, etc are Good yet.
Tested all the springs at 1.900 install height and they all tested 130 to 135 closed and 235 to 240 open.
So I don't believe there was a spring issue that caused this.
We are still leaning towards just a fatigued valve.
The springs are a wearout item and had a long life cycle in this motor so they will be replaced on the rebuild
but just wanted to update the post.

Next step will be to inspect block and cam. I did find 2 pistons that the top ring was pinched in the groove. The cylinders are the one that the broken valve was in and the cyl that the 2 valve pieces went into. Cyl #5 and #2

More to come later, David

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/05/11 01:04 PM

Todd is right about the springs--It has been 1969 since a head came off a valve because of valve quality--valve float for whatever reason is the culprit 99% of the time--they float because of weak springs, too heavy on the retainers, DRIVING style, too much RPM, uncontrolled burnout, etc the valve then gets smacked by the piston and that makes the head come off. I am NO fan of Indy but..they used to ( not sure about now)buy valves from BBB in Argentina and they are one of the worlds biggest makers and build the valves to the buyers specs- Indy always ordered chrome on the stems for wear protection and induction hardened tips- all plenty good enough for any race engine--hate to see your trouble but worth mentioning that Titanium retainers are the best protection and EVERY race engine should have them.

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/05/11 01:52 PM

Quote:

Update on motor,
saturday at work we took the other head apart and no broken springs on it either. All locks, retainers, etc are Good yet.
Tested all the springs at 1.900 install height and they all tested 130 to 135 closed and 235 to 240 open.
So I don't believe there was a spring issue that caused this.

shouldn't those be more like 335-340 lbs.??? 240 lbs open would be fine for a stock chevy 283 though.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/05/11 02:49 PM

340 or more would be more like it for sure! 240 spelled doom --like I said valves get blamed for lots of other valvetrain issues and are almost never the problem

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/06/11 09:36 AM

Sorry my bad Yes it's was 335 to 340.
That was the first time I ever used the spring tester so I was
learning as we did it.
I DID upgrade to titanium retainers when I bought the heads.
I will clean the pistons and see if there are any marks from any valves hitting them. I had plenty of piston to valve clearance when we built it. Timing marks are dead on and the billet timing gear assembly is still TIGHT.

Finished taking the crank out sunday and found the crank is in NICE shape, no marks or damage.
BUT did findout that after taking the main stud nuts off and studs out #4 main cap is broken.
Time for billet caps I guess.
Oh well more money to spend.
Maybe when my builder takes a look at it when he gets a chance he can find something I don't see.
David

Posted By: His and Her 69's

Re: listen to your engine builder!!! /PHOTOS ADDED - 06/11/11 08:49 PM

Well another update,
Took the block in to the shop to clean and pressure test and checkout things and now we don't need too.
The #5 cyl is cracked, it goes up the outside wall of the block about 3" long. It can be sleeved but I will not do that for a race motor so I will stick it back and find another block to use.

Man this is getting more expensive everytime I get into it farther.
Next week the crank will go in and get checked for cracks just to be safe. I guess it's time to check the rods and pistons and see what those need and start looking for a block.

More bad news later at least by the way it's going now. Hope Not though.
David