Posted By: johnl1961
predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 07:27 PM
Looking to buy a motor was looking at doing a big cube inch motor with predator heads but wow 12,000 for just heads and intake set up wowwwww thats crazy!Chime in please.
predator heads over priced?
Posted By: wesw
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 08:02 PM
that price is for the complete top end. you should check racingjunk.com you might find a deal on a pair of heads or a complete predator motor. i know eddie miller has his predator motor for sale.
Posted By: Big B
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 08:06 PM
That's what I said too. That's why I am building a twin turbo with my Indy-1 heads.
It will make more power then any NA Predator engine. Plus it will do it with a small
Hydraulic roller on pump gas driven to and from the track.
It will make more power then any NA Predator engine. Plus it will do it with a small
Hydraulic roller on pump gas driven to and from the track.
Posted By: johnl1961
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 09:30 PM
Love the numbers but hate the price ,Well you can build a hemi for those prices!Are they so high cause of indy buying them out?
Posted By: boatracer572
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 10:36 PM
The price is in line with the big chief(chevy) thore (ford) equivolents.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 10:51 PM
Quote:
The price is in line with the big chief(chevy) thore (ford) equivolents.
True
But performance isnt... I dont care what Indy says... I know of one 1400+ HP Thor head combo, and put down the number to back it up too.
Whats the Predator guys making 1100 max?
I just dont know If I could pull the trigger on a Mopar engine like that and still be sucking hind tit at the back of the pack, when I could have 300+ HP more for same money..
Im a Mopar guy by all means......
But that's just common sense IMO.
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 11:04 PM
Quote:Quote:
The price is in line with the big chief(chevy) thore (ford) equivolents.
True
But performance isnt... I dont care what Indy says... I know of one 1400+ HP Thor head combo, and put down the number to back it up too.
Whats the Predator guys making 1100 max?
I just dont know If I could pull the trigger on a Mopar engine like that and still be sucking hind tit at the back of the pack, when I could have 300+ HP more for same money..
Im a Mopar guy by all means......
But that's just common sense IMO.
I agree the Pred heads do not keep up with the pack at that price range. DTHemi would tell you what the Thor heads can do with a single carb! Those numbers would put shame to most any of our N/A mopars.
Posted By: POS Dakota
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 11:06 PM
Quote:Quote:
The price is in line with the big chief(chevy) thore (ford) equivolents.
True
But performance isnt... I dont care what Indy says... I know of one 1400+ HP Thor head combo, and put down the number to back it up too.
Whats the Predator guys making 1100 max?
I just dont know If I could pull the trigger on a Mopar engine like that and still be sucking hind tit at the back of the pack, when I could have 300+ HP more for same money..
Im a Mopar guy by all means......
But that's just common sense IMO.
That's why most build a big block instead of a hemi.
Posted By: DaKuda
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 11:14 PM
You can buy a HEMI '99 and be better off.
Posted By: gillman34
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 11:30 PM
My 555 ci engine makes 1248.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 11:57 PM
Quote:
You can buy a HEMI '99 and be better off.
Somebody on here has a Hemi 99 engine with a billit block and a shade over 600 cubes, and that thing flies...For that kind of money, I would go with Hemi 99 heads and look for a good price on a block.
Posted By: boatracer572
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/25/11 11:58 PM
1231 hp. Bracket motor here. I will agree there is more to be had with(hp.) other brands, but you are very limited what can be done with a 4.80 bore center.
Posted By: 572B1
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 12:12 AM
Quote:Quote:
You can buy a HEMI '99 and be better off.
Somebody on here has a Hemi 99 engine with a billit block and a shade over 600 cubes, and that thing flies...For that kind of money, I would go with Hemi 99 heads and look for a good price on a block.
I think your refering to ARC, maybe he will chime in.
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 12:21 AM
Not sure if you have heard of Goodwinn performance but they are building 650ci 5 inch bore space MOPAR hemi's for all the BIG pullers. 1575hp at about 75k$$$ Runs right with the schmit and Sonny pulling engines.
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 01:29 AM
This is what bothers me about this site. There are 2 posts here that I know and they have real world experience with the predator product. That's Gillman and Boatracer572. Both have very competitive engines with great power levels and they actually race competitively. The 588 PSO motor being built here will also be a very nice Mopar engine, but when making over 1000HP with a Mopar, it's not for the part time racer, right Al??? Al Aguire has an 1100HP B1 M/C 500 CI engine that some people would call BS on. I've seen it run and it is what he says it is. What people need to realize is, what it costs to develop the PSO, B1, Predator, Hemi 99, and other race Mopar heads. It's not easy and it's not cheap, but alot of Mopar people are. Sorry JMO! We should support the people that support us, and that isn't the Chinese.
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 01:45 AM
Quote:
This is what bothers me about this site. There are 2 posts here that I know and they have real world experience with the predator product. That's Gillman and Boatracer572. Both have very competitive engines with great power levels and they actually race competitively. The 588 PSO motor being built here will also be a very nice Mopar engine, but when making over 1000HP with a Mopar, it's not for the part time racer, right Al??? Al Aguire has an 1100HP B1 M/C 500 CI engine that some people would call BS on. I've seen it run and it is what he says it is. What people need to realize is, what it costs to develop the PSO, B1, Predator, Hemi 99, and other race Mopar heads. It's not easy and it's not cheap, but alot of Mopar people are. Sorry JMO! We should support the people that support us, and that isn't the Chinese.
Hmmm Could we at least add the cost and development of a b1-TS engine
I feel left out 
Posted By: Adrielp
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 01:54 AM
Quote:
This is what bothers me about this site. There are 2 posts here that I know and they have real world experience with the predator product. That's Gillman and Boatracer572. Both have very competitive engines with great power levels and they actually race competitively. The 588 PSO motor being built here will also be a very nice Mopar engine, but when making over 1000HP with a Mopar, it's not for the part time racer, right Al??? Al Aguire has an 1100HP B1 M/C 500 CI engine that some people would call BS on. I've seen it run and it is what he says it is. What people need to realize is, what it costs to develop the PSO, B1, Predator, Hemi 99, and other race Mopar heads. It's not easy and it's not cheap, but alot of Mopar people are. Sorry JMO! We should support the people that support us, and that isn't the Chinese.
Amen, Amen!
Also, the guys that have it don't spend it either. All mopar guys aren't poor, we just don't don't spend time developing our product like other brands. Big props to Larry, V. Gaines, Allen, Roy, and Larry O'brien for actually taking the time and money to develop Mopar Engines. If those guys hadn't done it, we would be even more behind the pace now.
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 03:07 AM
Hmmm Could we at least add the cost and development of a b1-TS engine
I feel left out Oh......Sorry. I said B1, but the B1 T/S is another huge power race only cylinder head choice.
Posted By: johnl1961
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 03:29 AM
Well I am going to use a power adder! But you can buy build big cheifs half of the cost just wish there were more choices out there!
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 03:31 AM
It costs money to go fast, period. If you want to make power in the 4 digit plus range it is gonna cost you money, plain and simple.
IMO the Predator head is the best option you have to make 1200+ hp with a Mopar and maintain reliability. Yes there is the Hemi 99 stuff but if you are a bracket racer living on a "budget" I dont think it is a viable option. Not just the build costs but the three people I know running them will tell you the reliability a bracket racer NEEDS just aint gonna be there. IMO a Mopar with a set of Predators can be reliable enough to run in Super Classes or Top Sportsman and Top Dragster and still make good power.
Seems like another case of Mopar guys whining and crying about something. How many people posting here are willing to spend the money to make 1250+hp PERIOD. Whether it is Mopar, Ford or Chevy? I applaud guys like Steve, Tony and Tom for stepping up and not being afraid to spend money to put Mopars out front. I have talked to Tony and Steve about these heads and feel pretty comfortable they can get the job done. Are there better parts out there SURE are. They are out there because guys are willing to do what it takes to get the job done. To bad we dont have more Mopar guys willing to do the same.
I know my next motor will be much bigger and have Predators...Now anybody wanna sell me a set cheap
IMO the Predator head is the best option you have to make 1200+ hp with a Mopar and maintain reliability. Yes there is the Hemi 99 stuff but if you are a bracket racer living on a "budget" I dont think it is a viable option. Not just the build costs but the three people I know running them will tell you the reliability a bracket racer NEEDS just aint gonna be there. IMO a Mopar with a set of Predators can be reliable enough to run in Super Classes or Top Sportsman and Top Dragster and still make good power.
Seems like another case of Mopar guys whining and crying about something. How many people posting here are willing to spend the money to make 1250+hp PERIOD. Whether it is Mopar, Ford or Chevy? I applaud guys like Steve, Tony and Tom for stepping up and not being afraid to spend money to put Mopars out front. I have talked to Tony and Steve about these heads and feel pretty comfortable they can get the job done. Are there better parts out there SURE are. They are out there because guys are willing to do what it takes to get the job done. To bad we dont have more Mopar guys willing to do the same.
I know my next motor will be much bigger and have Predators...Now anybody wanna sell me a set cheap
Posted By: johnl1961
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:01 AM
Good statement bad point of view the price of a 1200 hp motor is way out of shape!
That's why I am using a power adder! Just like the flow numbers on them but just can't pull the trigger on the price! Really not bitching about the price of going fast just asking are they worth it? Cause right now it's a coin flip! Need to put 3150 pounds on drag radials in the 4.70 range in the 1/8 so it takes about 1100 to the ground!
That's why I am using a power adder! Just like the flow numbers on them but just can't pull the trigger on the price! Really not bitching about the price of going fast just asking are they worth it? Cause right now it's a coin flip! Need to put 3150 pounds on drag radials in the 4.70 range in the 1/8 so it takes about 1100 to the ground!
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:14 AM
HP aint cheap, especially NA HP. Dont matter what brand in that case. Look into the mountain motor stuff. Thise are basically $1000+ per cube engines..
FWIW a set of 12 degeee Raptors are $7K just for the heads. That is for a comparable BB Chebbie head..I think you will find that the Predator stuff is in the same price ballpark as comparable heads for the other makes.
IMO if you are buying all new stuff trying to build 1200+hp naturally aspirated you are gonna spend similar money on all of them. Now the difference being you can find good used Chevy and Ferd stuff out there, not really much Mopar stuff out there. Also there are a few options for the bowtie guys to get there.
FWIW a set of 12 degeee Raptors are $7K just for the heads. That is for a comparable BB Chebbie head..I think you will find that the Predator stuff is in the same price ballpark as comparable heads for the other makes.
IMO if you are buying all new stuff trying to build 1200+hp naturally aspirated you are gonna spend similar money on all of them. Now the difference being you can find good used Chevy and Ferd stuff out there, not really much Mopar stuff out there. Also there are a few options for the bowtie guys to get there.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:20 AM
A 4.70 at 3150 I think is gonna take more power than that to get you there particulalry on a radial.
That's about a 7.35 or so, at 3150 you are looking at what 1600ish at the crank or more? Especially given the fact that those cars are not that aggressive off the line. IMO the only way to get there is gonna be MONSTER cubes or a power adder or a few kits. Just saying
That's about a 7.35 or so, at 3150 you are looking at what 1600ish at the crank or more? Especially given the fact that those cars are not that aggressive off the line. IMO the only way to get there is gonna be MONSTER cubes or a power adder or a few kits. Just saying
Posted By: Adrielp
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:21 AM
Quote:
Good statement bad point of view the price of a 1200 hp motor is way out of shape!
That's why I am using a power adder! Just like the flow numbers on them but just can't pull the trigger on the price! Really not bitching about the price of going fast just asking are they worth it? Cause right now it's a coin flip! Need to put 3150 pounds on drag radials in the 4.70 range in the 1/8 so it takes about 1100 to the ground!
How much is the predator stuff in comparison to the BAE stuff? They use the BAE stuff in Pro Mod Turbo combos so it should be more than sufficient for what your trying to do or are you trying to utilize what you already have.
Posted By: HEMIFRED
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 06:52 AM
my 604" done by DTHEMI made 1179 with street car headers having 3.5" collectors on it
Posted By: B1Fish540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 11:34 AM
Quote:
1231 hp. Bracket motor here. I will agree there is more to be had with(hp.) other brands, but you are very limited what can be done with a 4.80 bore center.
thats the crux of the matter...stretch the Pred and it will match the competition. If Indy was serious they would do that...and provide blocks. 
Posted By: cudacustoms1
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 12:30 PM
BAE heads new bare are around $6000. Don't forget around the same for complete rockers. $1600 for bare intake.Plus all of the smaller parts. There are places that race heads up and if you are a mopar guy you are 2 steps back as soon as you start.I have to thank the guys who push the motor combo's and find new things that work for us mopar racers.
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 01:56 PM
Quote:
BAE heads new bare are around $6000. Don't forget around the same for complete rockers. $1600 for bare intake.Plus all of the smaller parts. There are places that race heads up and if you are a mopar guy you are 2 steps back as soon as you start.I have to thank the guys who push the motor combo's and find new things that work for us mopar racers.
With my latest venture into the Predator world, I am learning many things. One is that big inch Hemis, 632 and Chevys, bracket blower motors that are durable and their componants, are very expensive. Less expensive options would be used engines, turbo, and nos. But if you think a new Chevy 632 bracket/heads up 1200-1300 is less trhan 35.000, you need to just look in the Wally guide to see what Schmit, Reher, charges for these motors. And they make them by the dozens with volume purchases on parts. The Mopar guy is a loyalist. We don't have near the options the GM guys do. That's why the guys who develop parts for us, deserve respect. They do it for the same reason, they are Mopar loyalists. Only it costs them more than the rest of us to be Mopar guys. And they have to wait years at times to recoup the money laid out for this development. So you have to ask yourself if you can live with a GM motor in your car. You might save a little but not much and then you have what everybody else has. Or you can be different and build a Mopar. The choice is ours, but give our parts producers credit. It's just as hard for them to choose against building GM race parts. And the reason no one is mass producing 4.84 and 5 inch bors spacing blocks and heads for Mopars by the dozens, is because the Mopar crowd would whine about the price. Just ask the guys at Indy. Maybe that's why they treat people the way they do.
Hey I'm a whiner too, but I am a Mopar guy and have been for 45 years.
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 01:58 PM
Posted By: sdaurity
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 02:15 PM
Quote:
Good statement bad point of view the price of a 1200 hp motor is way out of shape!
That's why I am using a power adder! Just like the flow numbers on them but just can't pull the trigger on the price! Really not bitching about the price of going fast just asking are they worth it? Cause right now it's a coin flip! Need to put 3150 pounds on drag radials in the 4.70 range in the 1/8 so it takes about 1100 to the ground!
It takes a lot more than 1150 to the wheels to go 4.70's @ 3150 especially on radials. More like 1400. It could be done with less but it will have to be a VERY ironed out combo with lots of passes.
Posted By: gillman34
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 02:56 PM
Quote:
Love the numbers but hate the price ,Well you can build a hemi for those prices!Are they so high cause of indy buying them out?
No,the price has not gone up.The 12,000 number you quoted is for the complete fully ported race ready package.This includes titanium valves in a fully assembled head with your choice of valve springs.It also includes rocker gear,valve covers,Tunnel Ram manifold,head studs,gaskets and exhaust flanges.If you buy from me,I include the offset distributor as part of the deal.
This is for a head that will flow approx 540 cfm and bolt on with with only very minor clearancing required depending on the customers pushrod diameter.There are no external oil feeds or drains needed when pushrod oiling.The valve train is stable and the geometry is correct.I routinely go over 9000 rpm and have NO valvetrain issues.Try that with your hemi without spending big bucks on the rocker setup.
What do you feel you should pay for all of that?
Keep in mind that the cost from concept to finished product was more than most people have paid for the house they own.
If you were to research the actual cost to build a 1200-1300 hp N/A engine you will find that it is almost the same wether you build a Chevy,Ford or Mopar.At this level there is nothing "stock",it's all aftermarket.
If you have any questions call me, 973-907-4474
Steve Gill
Predator Performance Products LLC.
Posted By: Adrielp
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 02:57 PM
Quote:Quote:
BAE heads new bare are around $6000. Don't forget around the same for complete rockers. $1600 for bare intake.Plus all of the smaller parts. There are places that race heads up and if you are a mopar guy you are 2 steps back as soon as you start.I have to thank the guys who push the motor combo's and find new things that work for us mopar racers.
With my latest venture into the Predator world, I am learning many things. One is that big inch Hemis, 632 and Chevys, bracket blower motors that are durable and their componants, are very expensive. Less expensive options would be used engines, turbo, and nos. But if you think a new Chevy 632 bracket/heads up 1200-1300 is less trhan 35.000, you need to just look in the Wally guide to see what Schmit, Reher, charges for these motors. And they make them by the dozens with volume purchases on parts. The Mopar guy is a loyalist. We don't have near the options the GM guys do. That's why the guys who develop parts for us, deserve respect. They do it for the same reason, they are Mopar loyalists. Only it costs them more than the rest of us to be Mopar guys. And they have to wait years at times to recoup the money laid out for this development. So you have to ask yourself if you can live with a GM motor in your car. You might save a little but not much and then you have what everybody else has. Or you can be different and build a Mopar. The choice is ours, but give our parts producers credit. It's just as hard for them to choose against building GM race parts. And the reason no one is mass producing 4.84 and 5 inch bors spacing blocks and heads for Mopars by the dozens, is because the Mopar crowd would whine about the price. Just ask the guys at Indy. Maybe that's why they treat people the way they do.
I agree with you. In the end scheme of things I believe the most efficient way to make the parts available is for someone to engineer a way for Predator heads and newer big bore space versions to fit on the GM style blocks. Mopar top, GM bottom only with this guys can't complain about not finding parts and what not. Otherwise, you would have to give new Mopar engines away in order for people to buy them. If I was a billionaire, I would pay people to use what I developed but that has yet to happen. Lord bless me with some Oprah money!
Posted By: johnl1961
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 03:05 PM
Well 965@ 3150 on drag radials is 5.10 in a fox body with a F2 blow thru on a small block no inner cooler! So looking to step up a big block combo.So 5" bore spacing is the key who makes it,Where can you but it?
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 03:10 PM
Quote:
Well 965@ 3150 on drag radials is 5.10 in a fox body with a F2 blow thru on a small block no inner cooler! So looking to step up a big block combo.So 5" bore spacing is the key who makes it,Where can you but it?
Sonny Leanard and get your wallet out and cough!
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 03:54 PM
Quote:
Well 965@ 3150 on drag radials is 5.10 in a fox body with a F2 blow thru on a small block no inner cooler! So looking to step up a big block combo.So 5" bore spacing is the key who makes it,Where can you but it?
Sonny... Schmit.... Goodwinn and yup....60+++ grand
Posted By: patrick
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:20 PM
Quote:
HP aint cheap, especially NA HP. Dont matter what brand in that case. Look into the mountain motor stuff. Thise are basically $1000+ per cube engines..
FWIW a set of 12 degeee Raptors are $7K just for the heads. That is for a comparable BB Chebbie head..I think you will find that the Predator stuff is in the same price ballpark as comparable heads for the other makes.
IMO if you are buying all new stuff trying to build 1200+hp naturally aspirated you are gonna spend similar money on all of them. Now the difference being you can find good used Chevy and Ferd stuff out there, not really much Mopar stuff out there. Also there are a few options for the bowtie guys to get there.
when it gets to this level, isn't it pretty much an aftermarket race engine? what is "chevy" in a Big Chief motor, or "Ford" in a Thor head motor, or for that matter "Mopar" in a predator head motor?
don't all the realy big (600 cube+) motors have non-stock bore spacing & deck heights? they all have aftermarket rotating assemblies, the heads don't really share any similarities to any production heads beyond they have valves, springs and ports, etc....
I guess I don't see what all the bellyaching is about when you get to that level of racing...
"chevy" "ford" and "mopar" really are irrelevant as far as the engines go...
just my
Posted By: Edge
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:20 PM
From my perspective building a T/S motor it will be hard to compete $ for $ with a GM based mill. A buddy just picked up his T/S Camaro with a 632 Sunny's. 632 CID iron block and 1385 hp for around 40 K. That is alot of steam for 40 K just saying.
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:24 PM
Quote:
From my perspective building a T/S motor it will be hard to compete $ for $ with a GM based mill. A buddy just picked up his T/S Camaro with a 632 Sunny's. 632 CID iron block and 1385 hp for around 40 K. That is alot of steam for 40 K just saying.
http://www.bearsperformanceproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=885
Posted By: B1Fish540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 04:33 PM
Quote:Quote:
HP aint cheap, especially NA HP. Dont matter what brand in that case. Look into the mountain motor stuff. Thise are basically $1000+ per cube engines..
FWIW a set of 12 degeee Raptors are $7K just for the heads. That is for a comparable BB Chebbie head..I think you will find that the Predator stuff is in the same price ballpark as comparable heads for the other makes.
IMO if you are buying all new stuff trying to build 1200+hp naturally aspirated you are gonna spend similar money on all of them. Now the difference being you can find good used Chevy and Ferd stuff out there, not really much Mopar stuff out there. Also there are a few options for the bowtie guys to get there.
when it gets to this level, isn't it pretty much an aftermarket race engine? what is "chevy" in a Big Chief motor, or "Ford" in a Thor head motor, or for that matter "Mopar" in a predator head motor?
don't all the realy big (600 cube+) motors have non-stock bore spacing & deck heights? they all have aftermarket rotating assemblies, the heads don't really share any similarities to any production heads beyond they have valves, springs and ports, etc....
I guess I don't see what all the bellyaching is about when you get to that level of racing...
"chevy" "ford" and "mopar" really are irrelevant as far as the engines go...
just my
your right, they are all the same. The blocks uesd to be some of the difference but not anymore. It really just comes down to engineering savy, can the mopar guys or the ford guys engineer a "pro stock" type head as good as the chevy guys? Or vice-versa? Its what camp the winning motors come out. Thats where the competition is...so it really has nothing to do with the "brands" anymore. hope this makes a little sense anyway..thats my take on all this.
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 05:11 PM
Quote:Quote:
From my perspective building a T/S motor it will be hard to compete $ for $ with a GM based mill. A buddy just picked up his T/S Camaro with a 632 Sunny's. 632 CID iron block and 1385 hp for around 40 K. That is alot of steam for 40 K just saying.
http://www.bearsperformanceproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=885
Well, I won't know the answer to that question until September. And you will all know the answer if you keep up with my postings as we go forward with my Predator project or make it to MATS in 2012. But I can tell you, the P/S hemi deal would be a labor intensive peice, and not really bracket equipment unless you like to change springs, check bearings, lifters etc. on a regular basis.
And as far as the 632 for 40K, they don't all run the same or make the same power as advertised, like any race motor. And I may not make 1385HP, and I won't spend 40K. Also, the horsepower may not be far off from that 1385HP number, it's all BS until in the car and making timeslips. I think I have the best guy building it (Steve Gill) and he races what he sells. There are other good engine builders to be sure, but I am confident we'll make good power at a reasonable price. It will also carry the Mopar banner, and reasonable was the question in the post. Just my
Posted By: LA360
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/26/11 11:08 PM
The average Mopar guy is a tight wad plain and simple, hence why people are not prepared to develop to decent high end parts. Most of these guys will get upset when you tell them so too!
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 12:06 AM
Quote:Quote:
BAE heads new bare are around $6000. Don't forget around the same for complete rockers. $1600 for bare intake.Plus all of the smaller parts. There are places that race heads up and if you are a mopar guy you are 2 steps back as soon as you start.I have to thank the guys who push the motor combo's and find new things that work for us mopar racers.
With my latest venture into the Predator world, I am learning many things. One is that big inch Hemis, 632 and Chevys, bracket blower motors that are durable and their componants, are very expensive. Less expensive options would be used engines, turbo, and nos. But if you think a new Chevy 632 bracket/heads up 1200-1300 is less trhan 35.000, you need to just look in the Wally guide to see what Schmit, Reher, charges for these motors. And they make them by the dozens with volume purchases on parts. The Mopar guy is a loyalist. We don't have near the options the GM guys do. That's why the guys who develop parts for us, deserve respect. They do it for the same reason, they are Mopar loyalists. Only it costs them more than the rest of us to be Mopar guys. And they have to wait years at times to recoup the money laid out for this development. So you have to ask yourself if you can live with a GM motor in your car. You might save a little but not much and then you have what everybody else has. Or you can be different and build a Mopar. The choice is ours, but give our parts producers credit. It's just as hard for them to choose against building GM race parts. And the reason no one is mass producing 4.84 and 5 inch bors spacing blocks and heads for Mopars by the dozens, is because the Mopar crowd would whine about the price. Just ask the guys at Indy. Maybe that's why they treat people the way they do.
I cant bite my tongue any longer, just wondering why loyalty is even brought up... These engine have little to do with brand loyal.. So I dont understand, this would also include the PS hemi's, how do those guys help develop parts for Mopar brand loyal?
If you worried about that, spend less money on a BAE, make as much power as anyone, and still look brand loyal.. More so than a Predator head Mopar with spread port runners.
I gotta a chuckle out of this..
Posted By: Leon441
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 12:17 AM
Just curious Bob, because I am not sure the answer. But, what would not be Mopar about the Pro Stock Hemi. I know it is not a real hemi. Did Mopar copy this design from Chevie or Ford more/less? Only asking because I am not sure enough to make this statement. I have heard some opinions from people who really do know, but can't remember what was said.
I agree in part about the "Mopar Loyalist" deal but I get a laugh when guys call those 900+ engines chevies.
Leon
I agree in part about the "Mopar Loyalist" deal but I get a laugh when guys call those 900+ engines chevies.
Leon
Posted By: ChrgrCuda
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 12:24 AM
I'm definetly no expert in this area as I'm very small time amateur. However I have been following this thread with interest. My uncle campaigned a 72 Chevelle down here in the DFW area 3 years ago that was running at first a Pat Musi, then Reher Morrison, and finally a Merlin. He would always laugh when we would talk about his "Chevy" engine. He said that the only thing common with a Chevy engine and those engines was the bellhousing. Otherwise there was nothing "Chevy" about it.
Posted By: B1KILLER
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 12:58 AM
Thats why I'm going
R5P7 twin Turbo
Should be up and running
by July of this year
R5P7 twin Turbo
Should be up and running
by July of this year
Posted By: Adrielp
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 12:59 AM
The question is why can't we associate OEM brands with aftermarket parts?
I see nothing wrong whatsoever with calling predator heads Mopar because is was intended to go on a Mopar product. I think brand association is a good thing. Why not call big 900ci engines ford, chevy, mopar, whatever?
I see nothing wrong whatsoever with calling predator heads Mopar because is was intended to go on a Mopar product. I think brand association is a good thing. Why not call big 900ci engines ford, chevy, mopar, whatever?
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 01:43 AM
Quote:
The question is why can't we associate OEM brands with aftermarket parts?
I see nothing wrong whatsoever with calling predator heads Mopar because is was intended to go on a Mopar product. I think brand association is a good thing. Why not call big 900ci engines ford, chevy, mopar, whatever?
Well, My block says Mopar on it and is a Hemi block that could and would accept Hemi heads. I haven't seen a GM emblem on the Sonny motor, although I didn't get a vey good look at it. And the guy that owned it said "there isn't a Chevy part that will fit on this thing, it's a one off custom purpose built race motor". And there was never a Chevy hemi that I know of, but if the builder wants to call it a Chemi, what do I care.
And to a point mine is a purpose built race motor too. I don't care what you call it as long as I'm able to race the Mopar shows and can qualify in the T/D field. That's the only reason I decided to go that way, there were no other options using a mopar bottom end. And it's my opinion they are alot stronger that any other design.
Posted By: bwdst6
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 11:20 AM
Quote:Some people can say that the Hemi 99 is just an updated version of the Oldsmobile DRCE, just with a 90° turned chamber. But…
But, what would not be Mopar about the Pro Stock Hemi.
One can also say that the Hemi’s of the 60’s and 70’s were a rip off of such things as the Belgian car maker Pipe in 1905, the Peugeot Grand Prix Car of 1912, the Alfa Romeo GP car of 1914, Daimler, and Riley all of whom used engines with hemispherical cylinder heads.
There really isn't anything new under the sun!
Posted By: Biginchmopar
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 06:37 PM
Who really cares what price the Predators are, at least we have the availability of the parts to make our stuff faster! I'm building a Predator motor because that is the best option for the type of racing I want to do. Forever it has been B-1 and that is it! I don't like dealing with the Indy guys for lots of reason but they have givin Mopar guys the ability to make Mopars faster.
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 08:06 PM
Quote:
The average Mopar guy is a tight wad plain and simple, hence why people are not prepared to develop to decent high end parts. Most of these guys will get upset when you tell them so too!
I'm not a tight wad, just broke, plain and simple. That's why I race a Mopar because I don't want to spend money I don't have to keep fixing it.
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 10:56 PM
Quote:Quote:
The average Mopar guy is a tight wad plain and simple, hence why people are not prepared to develop to decent high end parts. Most of these guys will get upset when you tell them so too!
I'm not a tight wad, just broke, plain and simple. That's why I race a Mopar because I don't want to spend money I don't have to keep fixing it.
This is a good discussion in my book, and nothing wrong with a debate, at least to thick skinned people.... On that Note.
Bologna
"Blocks"
Plenty of people would buy a large bore spacing block if it was available, I would buy one. No Im no Im far from Rich, but I dont care to spend a little money to try and go fast.
My next engine will be a B1MC (top end) engine which I could get for about half the price of the Predator's (top end)... Fully cnc ported heads and a good set of rockers....with money saved buy a Koleno/World Block for the same money as the Predator Top End Only. Im sorry but IMO make about the same amount of power (ball Park anyways) Im glad we have the Predator heads..
I know the Predator heads are a better design and have potential to make a good bit more power. I do Not debate this...
I glad there is People like Steve Gill that helps bring new stuff like this to hot rod world... And id still rather deal with him than Indy Direct LOL.
Now I go to my corner!!
Posted By: HEMIBERT588
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 11:15 PM
Ya, im gonna have to agree with big inch here. i built a hemi with stage V heads that were supposed to be all that and i was sadly dissapointed with 1100hp,predators are bang for the buck and those heads are the best option!! in a lower hp build if you buy some victor heads/ harland sharp rockers/ springs,retainers and locks that stuff still ads up to be a fair chunk of money and then your limited.
Posted By: quickd100
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/27/11 11:36 PM
As the old saying goes, 'Speed costs son...how fast do you want to go?'. It wasn't to many years ago that there were no options. I tip my hat to anyone that has invested the time, money, and research to make any of these pieces available to the public. Dave
Dave
Posted By: 68roadrunner
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/28/11 02:48 AM
i dont have a dog in this race, my goals is easily reached by what is made, but there is more
anybody know Todd Goodwin? 5.0,5.3,5.4 bore space blocks and heads.
http://www.goodwincompetition.nhttp://moparmax.com/tech/2011/vi_4-indyheads-1.htmlet/homepage.htm
now i am sure this stuff will make the predator heads look very cheap. but if extreme performance is what is needed, you must have the money to go that fast
anybody know Todd Goodwin? 5.0,5.3,5.4 bore space blocks and heads.
http://www.goodwincompetition.nhttp://moparmax.com/tech/2011/vi_4-indyheads-1.htmlet/homepage.htm
now i am sure this stuff will make the predator heads look very cheap. but if extreme performance is what is needed, you must have the money to go that fast
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/28/11 03:01 AM
Quote:
i dont have a dog in this race, my goals is easily reached by what is made, but there is more
anybody know Todd Goodwin? 5.0,5.3,5.4 bore space blocks and heads.
http://www.goodwincompetition.nhttp://moparmax.com/tech/2011/vi_4-indyheads-1.htmlet/homepage.htm
now i am sure this stuff will make the predator heads look very cheap. but if extreme performance is what is needed, you must have the money to go that fast
That it who i was talking about with the 650 ci 5 inch hemis at 1575hp!!! His own billet hemi heads. His engines run with Sonny and Schmit!!! And he is an amazing guy to talk to and work with!
Posted By: B1Fish540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/28/11 03:33 AM
Quote:Quote:
i dont have a dog in this race, my goals is easily reached by what is made, but there is more
anybody know Todd Goodwin? 5.0,5.3,5.4 bore space blocks and heads.
http://www.goodwincompetition.nhttp://moparmax.com/tech/2011/vi_4-indyheads-1.htmlet/homepage.htm
now i am sure this stuff will make the predator heads look very cheap. but if extreme performance is what is needed, you must have the money to go that fast
That it who i was talking about with the 650 ci 5 inch hemis at 1575hp!!! His own billet hemi heads. His engines run with Sonny and Schmit!!! And he is an amazing guy to talk to and work with!
For some reason i thought you meant 5. bore space 2nd gen Hemis...that would be way cool.. But still the 5" P/S Hemi that makes 1500+ hp is fantastic! Now to get a mopar built with that 5.4" bore space block he has!!
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/28/11 05:10 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
i dont have a dog in this race, my goals is easily reached by what is made, but there is more
anybody know Todd Goodwin? 5.0,5.3,5.4 bore space blocks and heads.
http://www.goodwincompetition.nhttp://moparmax.com/tech/2011/vi_4-indyheads-1.htmlet/homepage.htm
now i am sure this stuff will make the predator heads look very cheap. but if extreme performance is what is needed, you must have the money to go that fast
That it who i was talking about with the 650 ci 5 inch hemis at 1575hp!!! His own billet hemi heads. His engines run with Sonny and Schmit!!! And he is an amazing guy to talk to and work with!
For some reason i thought you meant 5. bore space 2nd gen Hemis...that would be way cool.. But still the 5" P/S Hemi that makes 1500+ hp is fantastic! Now to get a mopar built with that 5.4" bore space block he has!!
This Hemi stuff is way out of my leaugue guys. It would be nice to have that kinda money, but it's not me. when I started firguring out how much the PSO was by comparison, and availability of the Cyl head, it made more sense to go Predator. And the potential was greater than with the other options for the price. The only thing the other 2 had going for them was the header change. And in the grand scheme of things, it was an insignificant cost compared to the power potential available. But we'll know more when it's done. There have been some Predator engines that weren't as impressive as I would have expected, but I feel like have the right guy doing this project. So if he makes the expected power with the restrictions I put on him (I told him it needed to be a reliable bracket engine) we'll all learn something.
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/28/11 05:20 PM
Considering the money I wasted going with RPM ported heads and still having to buy the extras I would say the $12000 for a complete package is actually a pretty good price.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: predator heads over priced? - 04/29/11 02:49 AM
Best option out there RIGHT now to make power with a Mopar. If you think it is expensive then dont run them. But when you are not as fast as the rest dont wonder why. Power costs money
Posted By: tsracer
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/25/12 09:01 PM
predator..............nuf said.........
Posted By: Bob_Coomer
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/25/12 09:47 PM
Quote:
predator..............nuf said.........
Yep, but Id sure like to have that engine you have in the Daytona.. Thing is the "Little Engine That Could" clean 90% of the 600+ cube monsters I see with exotic heads etc....
What is it John 528 Cubes, B1 Original's (not even fully ported)? Runs what 4.60-4.70's at a buck fifty + in the 8th mile
.
.
Johns engine
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 12:53 AM
Quote:Quote:
predator..............nuf said.........
Yep, but Id sure like to have that engine you have in the Daytona.. Thing is the "Little Engine That Could" clean 90% of the 600+ cube monsters I see with exotic heads etc....
What is it John 528 Cubes, B1 Original's (not even fully ported)? Runs what 4.60-4.70's at a buck fifty + in the 8th mile
.
.
Johns engine
He must have some spray. My dragster at 1850lbs is right there with a 572, no NOS. So...not buying that it's N/A.
Posted By: robnbird
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 03:04 AM
Quote:
The average Mopar guy is a tight wad plain and simple,hence why people are not prepared to develop to decent high end parts. Most of these guys will get upset when you tell them so too!
preachit brother 
u not sayit les u steppin on those toes uh 
Im building a HEMI now.
Posted By: hemi-itis
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 03:08 AM
Quote:
Best option out there RIGHT now to make power with a Mopar. If you think it is expensive then dont run them. But when you are not as fast as the rest dont wonder why. Power costs money
When you buy Steve Gill's package,you also have the guy that DID all the R&D to make them what they are,he's always there aftersale to help in any way he can.Did I mention he's a HARD CORE mopar guy??
Posted By: go green
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 08:29 AM
I read this thread and realize why Steve sold the rights to Indy , what a bunch of cry baby dinosaurs . The aftermarket community will only survive if there is a viable and willing consumer to buy a product . Do you guys understand why there are not anymore manufacturers willing to developing a high performance cylinder heads for hard core mopar racers ?
Posted By: EchoSixMike
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 09:37 AM
If you need the power, you have to pay for it. If you don't need it, why would you even care what they cost? Why complain about something you're not gonna use? Do you complain about what Formula 1 or IndyCar engines cost too? S/F.....Ken M
Posted By: RT540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 10:07 AM
Most mopar racers, don´t have the budget or the chassi in door slammer cars to take advantage of 1200+ hp, here´s the biggest reason why predator heads are hard to sell.
I think that the mind opens up to none wedge designs, once you have struggled to run under 8 seconds with a door car.
One exception for the PSO head tho.
Look at the fastest times, list, just 12 members in the 7 to 8 sec. list and half of those are dragsters. The potencial customers for N/A 1200+hp are not many, on this mopar board.
Just my opinion, and I would´t mind to run Predator heads myself, or PSO heads either for that matter.
I think that the mind opens up to none wedge designs, once you have struggled to run under 8 seconds with a door car.
One exception for the PSO head tho.
Look at the fastest times, list, just 12 members in the 7 to 8 sec. list and half of those are dragsters. The potencial customers for N/A 1200+hp are not many, on this mopar board.
Just my opinion, and I would´t mind to run Predator heads myself, or PSO heads either for that matter.
Posted By: dthemi
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 04:17 PM
I think they're priced where there could maybe possibly be just enough money in making and selling them to make it worth the risk and trouble. They are the best mope head I've seen that's not a hemi.
A Ford Thor is in another universe by comparison. Just the way it is, and they cost the same. The difference is you can't keep them on the shelf because the Ford guys pay for the most part. Should there be a 5th gen Thor that makes 30 more hp and costs few thousand more they'll sell faster than they can be produced. Too bad it doesn't work that way for us. There are a few Mopar guys spending but no where near what it takes to make the same availability of parts possible. No one hates it more than me.
A Ford Thor is in another universe by comparison. Just the way it is, and they cost the same. The difference is you can't keep them on the shelf because the Ford guys pay for the most part. Should there be a 5th gen Thor that makes 30 more hp and costs few thousand more they'll sell faster than they can be produced. Too bad it doesn't work that way for us. There are a few Mopar guys spending but no where near what it takes to make the same availability of parts possible. No one hates it more than me.
Posted By: MRMOPAR622
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 05:00 PM
Us Mopar racers ourselves or the reason we don't have more people building parts for us. Any time someone makes something for a Mopar the people that have no need for the parts if they were give to them,start bashing them and scare the people who need and can afford them away from buying them. There are so many difference companies making chevy and now ford parts they have to compete with each other on prices,that not only provides more and better parts for them to choose from but cheaper prices.
The only reason I don't have a set of the Indy Predator heads is I have not saved up enough $$$ to buy a set yet,but saving up $$$ for a set.
The only reason I don't have a set of the Indy Predator heads is I have not saved up enough $$$ to buy a set yet,but saving up $$$ for a set.
Posted By: jim sciortino
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 05:12 PM
Quote:This ^^^^^^.
I read this thread and realize why Steve sold the rights to Indy , what a bunch of cry baby dinosaurs . The aftermarket community will only survive if there is a viable and willing consumer to buy a product . Do you guys understand why there are not anymore manufacturers willing to developing a high performance cylinder heads for hard core mopar racers ?
Ford & Chevy guys EMBRACE every advancement that comes and they come in droves. They could care less if the valve is upside down, the head is 9 feet tall, the ports are spread across three area codes, or the bore center runs from bumper to bumper.
In the MOPAR world, if the part doesn't resemble 60s assembly line tech, IT'S NOT A MOPAR
......quite a farce. The Ford & Chevy stuff that actually RUNS, is so faaaaaaaaaar removed from their stock garbage it's laughable. 
Posted By: kens avenger
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 05:45 PM
The Price is not bad at all...you can spend a ton of money on B-1 stuff .. and not get close to the pred stuff...
Steve who makes the rockers for your stuff and the valves????
Kenny
Steve who makes the rockers for your stuff and the valves????
Kenny
Posted By: wesw
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 06:03 PM
that list for the fastest car list is so far out of date. the last update on it was 09/09. i had a B1MC motor in my car and i went to a predator motor because the B1 wouldn't get the job done. flat out the best it would run was 7.87 @ 176 mph.
my predator motor without the spray runs 7.45 @185
and with a soft tune up on one kit it's gone 7.11 @196 mph. i'm sure i will have no problem getting into the 6s on one kit. going fast does cost so if you want to play you have to pay.
my predator motor without the spray runs 7.45 @185
and with a soft tune up on one kit it's gone 7.11 @196 mph. i'm sure i will have no problem getting into the 6s on one kit. going fast does cost so if you want to play you have to pay.
Quote:
Most mopar racers, don´t have the budget or the chassi in door slammer cars to take advantage of 1200+ hp, here´s the biggest reason why predator heads are hard to sell.
I think that the mind opens up to none wedge designs, once you have struggled to run under 8 seconds with a door car.
One exception for the PSO head tho.
Look at the fastest times, list, just 12 members in the 7 to 8 sec. list and half of those are dragsters. The potencial customers for N/A 1200+hp are not many, on this mopar board.
Just my opinion, and I would´t mind to run Predator heads myself, or PSO heads either for that matter.
Posted By: B1Johnny
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 06:03 PM
i have been a mopar guy my whole lifewith the money i have in the pso motor and my daytona i could have bought a 6 second car.i thank every one who has made it possible to make the power we have available.when it comes time for me to step upit will not be in a mopar.there is nothing on my car thatis stock except for the roof and quarters.if you want to go fast it cost money,i am at the limit of how fast i can go on motorif i want to go faster i will switchto the dark side later johnny.
Posted By: RT540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 06:50 PM
Quote:
that list for the fastest car list is so far out of date. the last update on it was 09/09. i had a B1MC motor in my car and i went to a predator motor because the B1 wouldn't get the job done. flat out the best it would run was 7.87 @ 176 mph.
my predator motor without the spray runs 7.45 @185
and with a soft tune up on one kit it's gone 7.11 @196 mph. i'm sure i will have no problem getting into the 6s on one kit. going fast does cost so if you want to play you have to pay.
I hear you, I do agree, that list is old.
Curious still ( not trying to be a smart a..) how many members do have door cars N/A running sub 8 sec time slips here ?
Tom
Posted By: sg66mopar
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 06:51 PM
Just amazes me how fast it all progresses. Three years ago when I starter my B1 MC deal I thought it was pretty close to the top of the heap.
After reading this I feel like I'm really in the low bucks ranks and shouldn't even show up at the track any more.
And BTW, Tom: "Hey I'm a whiner too, but I am a Mopar guy and have been for 45 years."
I didn't think you WERE 45 yet!
After reading this I feel like I'm really in the low bucks ranks and shouldn't even show up at the track any more.
And BTW, Tom: "Hey I'm a whiner too, but I am a Mopar guy and have been for 45 years."
I didn't think you WERE 45 yet!
Posted By: coronetville
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 08:23 PM
is anything with the words "mopar" or "hemi" underpriced? ANYTHING? 
Posted By: MoparBilly
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 09:32 PM
Just some observations, and some questions.
Mopar guys are definitely different than most of the Chevy and Ford guys I know.
The Ford and Chevy guys almost always have one car, with one goal and one class they want to Race, then they persue that goal with everything they have until they win, they meet thier expectations, or it breaks them financially or otherwise. Then they sell all that stuff and head off in another direction.
Mopar Guys want a Cool B-body street car, a new SRT-8 something, a restored 340 A-body like they had in high school. They have a caged drag car, that has to have a tag, in case they want to go on Drag Week, it has to have a trans brake for pro-tree classes in case they want to run NHRA Super Street, or the Index class at the local Street car shootouts, and any electronics have to be removable so they can run at the Heritage Series or local nostalgia events! They just found a barn-find E-body that was priced right, it's going to need everything but they couldn't pass it up, but they'd really like to build a Top Sporstman ride someday or maybe a heads-up car, or what about a SS-AH car...
Yeah it's a big difference, I like to think Mopar guys are a little more prudent...prudent hoarders, ok OK, so we have some unresolved issues, but it doesn't make us CHEAP, just unfocused...I guess.
I've spent 4K in parts on my mopars since 11/30, problem is thats spread out over 4 different toys.
The only thing I own, that I've ever raced, that wasn't a stock block deal, Is a Indy Maxx low deck 512 with -1 heads, which I purchased complete, used for 10K, after I had put 60 passes on it, and was pleased with the reliability, and knew it would fit into my program.
When I look at what I can afford to race, class wise and engine wise, it's important to set expectations and parameters.
For myself I have no desire to persue a class which requires my engine to be freshened or gone through in 25-100 passes, that just doesn't meet my "Bang for the buck" requirements. I personally know guys with engine programs that need that kind of maintenance, in Comp Eliminator, Super Stock, Top Sportsman, Top Dragster, a plethora of local and regional heads-up classes, and even the occasional small-block Stock eliminator record chaser.
I think the majority of Mopar guys go through this same kind of checklist. Do I want to run Super Comp and fast brackets with a Dragster? Do I want a 6.0 cert chassis door car to run SG/ Fast brackets/possibly TS-Q16 stuff? Do I want a 4 link 7.50 cert door car that will work for SG/SST fast brackets, or will a back-halved traditional Mopar Muscle car with an 8.50 cert and ladder bars better fit my budget.
Since most of us have more cars than cash floating around, when that 15,000 to 25,000 dollar Daytona is available, or that 35,000 to 95,000 dollar ex top sportsman or ex pro stock ride becomes available...we don't make that jump, even if it would be smarter than what we end up doing, which is continually upgrading what we already have.
So The B-1s and the 440-1s come out and the typical Mopar guy looked, and said, "That's a big jump, intake, rockers, headers, I'll be 5k+, I'll just port my 906's. Mopar Performance comes out with the Stage VI, which is plagued with numerous quality issues and doesn't perform as advertised.
And we're labeled as cheap.
Edelbrock releases the RPM, which is aluminum, fits all the stock stuff, works great with stock stroke combos, is competitively priced, responds great to porting and is a tough quality casting. It makes factory heads obsolete and is an instant hit.
And we're labeled as cheap.
In an effort to bridge the gap, B1-BS and Indy SRs try to adress a section of the market. Affordable Stroker kits make it more realistic for those who decide to use B-1s and 440-1's
Fred Brewer builds an excellent head, but it was 15 years too early, and poorly marketed
And we're labeled as cheap.
Indy has to release the EZ series because manufacturers won't or refuse to build quality headers for the raised port RB engined stock chassis cars.
As the horsepower wars grow, and cubic inches grow, a niche market forms for guys who want need more power than a stock bore space 440-1 or B-1 can provide. So Indy builds a 572-13, and B-1 derivitives with alphabet soup lettering like MC, TS, PSO become avaiable.
Obviously the tip of the spear is a small point, the 4.80 bore space wedge engine has seen 50 years of refinement and development, and here comes the Predator. A Niche head, in a niche of a niche of a niche market.
And they don't sell like crazy, so we're labeled as cheap.
440 Source builds an aluminum head with a solid casting, which LOOKS stock, and they bring it in at a price point under the RPM, it reponds well to porting, and they market the heck out of it.
They sell tons...That proves it Mopar guys are cheap!
So my question, Why hasn't the 4.84 BS Indy 600-13 caught on? It's just a big ole grunt motor that repeats well, is reliable, and everyone I've talked to who went that route seem pleased. Is it just not a big enough jump?
Mopar guys are definitely different than most of the Chevy and Ford guys I know.
The Ford and Chevy guys almost always have one car, with one goal and one class they want to Race, then they persue that goal with everything they have until they win, they meet thier expectations, or it breaks them financially or otherwise. Then they sell all that stuff and head off in another direction.
Mopar Guys want a Cool B-body street car, a new SRT-8 something, a restored 340 A-body like they had in high school. They have a caged drag car, that has to have a tag, in case they want to go on Drag Week, it has to have a trans brake for pro-tree classes in case they want to run NHRA Super Street, or the Index class at the local Street car shootouts, and any electronics have to be removable so they can run at the Heritage Series or local nostalgia events! They just found a barn-find E-body that was priced right, it's going to need everything but they couldn't pass it up, but they'd really like to build a Top Sporstman ride someday or maybe a heads-up car, or what about a SS-AH car...
Yeah it's a big difference, I like to think Mopar guys are a little more prudent...prudent hoarders, ok OK, so we have some unresolved issues, but it doesn't make us CHEAP, just unfocused...I guess.
I've spent 4K in parts on my mopars since 11/30, problem is thats spread out over 4 different toys
.The only thing I own, that I've ever raced, that wasn't a stock block deal, Is a Indy Maxx low deck 512 with -1 heads, which I purchased complete, used for 10K, after I had put 60 passes on it, and was pleased with the reliability, and knew it would fit into my program.
When I look at what I can afford to race, class wise and engine wise, it's important to set expectations and parameters.
For myself I have no desire to persue a class which requires my engine to be freshened or gone through in 25-100 passes, that just doesn't meet my "Bang for the buck" requirements. I personally know guys with engine programs that need that kind of maintenance, in Comp Eliminator, Super Stock, Top Sportsman, Top Dragster, a plethora of local and regional heads-up classes, and even the occasional small-block Stock eliminator record chaser.
I think the majority of Mopar guys go through this same kind of checklist. Do I want to run Super Comp and fast brackets with a Dragster? Do I want a 6.0 cert chassis door car to run SG/ Fast brackets/possibly TS-Q16 stuff? Do I want a 4 link 7.50 cert door car that will work for SG/SST fast brackets, or will a back-halved traditional Mopar Muscle car with an 8.50 cert and ladder bars better fit my budget.
Since most of us have more cars than cash floating around, when that 15,000 to 25,000 dollar Daytona is available, or that 35,000 to 95,000 dollar ex top sportsman or ex pro stock ride becomes available...we don't make that jump, even if it would be smarter than what we end up doing, which is continually upgrading what we already have.
So The B-1s and the 440-1s come out and the typical Mopar guy looked, and said, "That's a big jump, intake, rockers, headers, I'll be 5k+, I'll just port my 906's. Mopar Performance comes out with the Stage VI, which is plagued with numerous quality issues and doesn't perform as advertised.
And we're labeled as cheap.
Edelbrock releases the RPM, which is aluminum, fits all the stock stuff, works great with stock stroke combos, is competitively priced, responds great to porting and is a tough quality casting. It makes factory heads obsolete and is an instant hit.
And we're labeled as cheap.
In an effort to bridge the gap, B1-BS and Indy SRs try to adress a section of the market. Affordable Stroker kits make it more realistic for those who decide to use B-1s and 440-1's
Fred Brewer builds an excellent head, but it was 15 years too early, and poorly marketed
And we're labeled as cheap.
Indy has to release the EZ series because manufacturers won't or refuse to build quality headers for the raised port RB engined stock chassis cars.
As the horsepower wars grow, and cubic inches grow, a niche market forms for guys who want need more power than a stock bore space 440-1 or B-1 can provide. So Indy builds a 572-13, and B-1 derivitives with alphabet soup lettering like MC, TS, PSO become avaiable.
Obviously the tip of the spear is a small point, the 4.80 bore space wedge engine has seen 50 years of refinement and development, and here comes the Predator. A Niche head, in a niche of a niche of a niche market.
And they don't sell like crazy, so we're labeled as cheap.
440 Source builds an aluminum head with a solid casting, which LOOKS stock, and they bring it in at a price point under the RPM, it reponds well to porting, and they market the heck out of it.
They sell tons...That proves it Mopar guys are cheap!
So my question, Why hasn't the 4.84 BS Indy 600-13 caught on? It's just a big ole grunt motor that repeats well, is reliable, and everyone I've talked to who went that route seem pleased. Is it just not a big enough jump?
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/26/12 10:57 PM
Quote:
So my question, Why hasn't the 4.84 BS Indy 600-13 caught on? It's just a big ole grunt motor that repeats well, is reliable, and everyone I've talked to who went that route seem pleased. Is it just not a big enough jump?
First off very nice post, I enjoyed reading it very much.
I asked about the 4.840 indy stuff on here years ago and the response was go for it if you want to Marry Indy. Not to many people that are into that lvl of engine seem to want that. Although they would give a ring to Bob George in a second;)
Over the past 10 years I have built engine after engine (or bought and then rebuilt) trying to keep up with the competition in our local Pulling club which has been growing rapidly over the years. Each engine built had to be bigger and stronger to try and keep up with the GM and Ford boys. 15-20 years ago we ran a old stock 440 with some NOS and had lots of fun. The fun stopped pretty quickly when the rule no Nitros was put in. So I ported the 906 heads added a torquer 2 intake and stayed in last place for 2 years.
So the stage 6 heads were coming out and I bought a set of them. Bored the old 440 .060 over added a 509 came and the new victor intake. Engine ran fine for what it was but at this time the GM and Ford boys had 500ci strokers and the little 440 couldn't keep up.
So I found a great deal on 496ci engine with 440-1c heads. We went through the engine and it made 800hp. We won our points championship once and runner up the next year. Rules changed again in the club and people were starting to come in with 572ci GM and Ford engines. We upgraded the 496 to get another 50hp out of her but it just couldn't keep up again.....
At this time the Predators were just out and we knew we needed a 600ci engine to compete against the now 650ci engines in the club. We struck a deal on an older 636ci B1-TS engine. Money was the factor of coarse going with the TS heads and not the Predators. Also we were told of the advantages of the larger 4.840BS block and didn't know much about the TS or 4.840 stuff but we learnt very quickly. We learnt that what people said these heads and engines were, were not exact the reality of them. Even with the 636 engine and 1100+hp we were still behind cause people were running 650ci Schmit engines with 1300hp.
We then had to make the decision of what to do to try and get into that 1200-1300hp range. A Predator engine at the time would have done it for sure (2 years ago) but we decided to go the B1-TS route once again but this time have all the bells and whistles done to the heads and engine. The engine i'm talking about now is the 640 I've had for the last two years and I just sold this winter. We were extremely happy with the engine and it did what it could for what it was. We aimed for 1200-1300 and got it but last season we realized that even 1300hp is not enough to keep up on power tracks.
After selling the two b1-TS engines we finally had the money to sit down and actually decide which head/engine would be the best way to go. We thought Predator, Hemi 99, Hemi Millenium, we even considered going to the dark side. Very quickly we realized that no 4.800 BS head would keep up with the 4.900 or 5 inch GM/Ford pulling engines.
Are the Predator heads a great 4.800 head..... YES.... Will they make that 1200-1300hp....Sure.... Were they going to make the 1400+ I needed for the next engine. Nope. Is it the Predators heads fault? Maybe not. Being on the 4.800BS is the problem, even the 4.840 wouldn't help. Either have to move right to the 4.900 like prostock/ford, or right to the 5 inch stuff.
Every power lvl comes with a cost and the certain equipment to do it with. I've made mistakes in the past but i've learnt a hell of a lot going through these last ten years.
The people who don't send nice words to the "newer" equipment out there just won't or never wanted to attain that higher power level in the first place.
To me if it was attended to be made for a mopar its a MOPAR. Let it be 906's, b1's, Brewer, Zeeker, Millennium stage5, 600-13, pro stock hemi...... They are all MOPAR to me
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 03:32 AM
Quote:Quote:
So my question, Why hasn't the 4.84 BS Indy 600-13 caught on? It's just a big ole grunt motor that repeats well, is reliable, and everyone I've talked to who went that route seem pleased. Is it just not a big enough jump?
First off very nice post, I enjoyed reading it very much.
I asked about the 4.840 indy stuff on here years ago and the response was go for it if you want to Marry Indy. Not to many people that are into that lvl of engine seem to want that. Although they would give a ring to Bob George in a second;)
Over the past 10 years I have built engine after engine (or bought and then rebuilt) trying to keep up with the competition in our local Pulling club which has been growing rapidly over the years. Each engine built had to be bigger and stronger to try and keep up with the GM and Ford boys. 15-20 years ago we ran a old stock 440 with some NOS and had lots of fun. The fun stopped pretty quickly when the rule no Nitros was put in. So I ported the 906 heads added a torquer 2 intake and stayed in last place for 2 years.
So the stage 6 heads were coming out and I bought a set of them. Bored the old 440 .060 over added a 509 came and the new victor intake. Engine ran fine for what it was but at this time the GM and Ford boys had 500ci strokers and the little 440 couldn't keep up.
So I found a great deal on 496ci engine with 440-1c heads. We went through the engine and it made 800hp. We won our points championship once and runner up the next year. Rules changed again in the club and people were starting to come in with 572ci GM and Ford engines. We upgraded the 496 to get another 50hp out of her but it just couldn't keep up again.....
At this time the Predators were just out and we knew we needed a 600ci engine to compete against the now 650ci engines in the club. We struck a deal on an older 636ci B1-TS engine. Money was the factor of coarse going with the TS heads and not the Predators. Also we were told of the advantages of the larger 4.840BS block and didn't know much about the TS or 4.840 stuff but we learnt very quickly. We learnt that what people said these heads and engines were, were not exact the reality of them. Even with the 636 engine and 1100+hp we were still behind cause people were running 650ci Schmit engines with 1300hp.
We then had to make the decision of what to do to try and get into that 1200-1300hp range. A Predator engine at the time would have done it for sure (2 years ago) but we decided to go the B1-TS route once again but this time have all the bells and whistles done to the heads and engine. The engine i'm talking about now is the 640 I've had for the last two years and I just sold this winter. We were extremely happy with the engine and it did what it could for what it was. We aimed for 1200-1300 and got it but last season we realized that even 1300hp is not enough to keep up on power tracks.
After selling the two b1-TS engines we finally had the money to sit down and actually decide which head/engine would be the best way to go. We thought Predator, Hemi 99, Hemi Millenium, we even considered going to the dark side. Very quickly we realized that no 4.800 BS head would keep up with the 4.900 or 5 inch GM/Ford pulling engines.
Are the Predator heads a great 4.800 head..... YES.... Will they make that 1200-1300hp....Sure.... Were they going to make the 1400+ I needed for the next engine. Nope. Is it the Predators heads fault? Maybe not. Being on the 4.800BS is the problem, even the 4.840 wouldn't help. Either have to move right to the 4.900 like prostock/ford, or right to the 5 inch stuff.
Every power lvl comes with a cost and the certain equipment to do it with. I've made mistakes in the past but i've learnt a hell of a lot going through these last ten years.
The people who don't send nice words to the "newer" equipment out there just won't or never wanted to attain that higher power level in the first place.
To me if it was attended to be made for a mopar its a MOPAR. Let it be 906's, b1's, Brewer, Zeeker, Millennium stage5, 600-13, pro stock hemi...... They are all MOPAR to me
Well said Mopar Billy and Diablo. My take on the whole Mopar, GM, Ford brand loyalty deal is this: I have been a diehard Mopar fan since I owned my first car. It was a 64 Dodge with a 383 4speed. Damn, I miss that car, and it ran better than any Chevy or Ford in my high school. Anybody that had anything real fast, usually owned a Mopar.
About the "cheap stuff". 440 source, Edelbrock, stage 6 heads, -1's, etc, are all street strip/stuff IMO. But, there is a place and purpose for it in the Mopar community.
When people sit around sniveling about why more people like Steve Gill and Best Machine and for that matter Indy, don't want to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in the development of race stuff for Mopar racers, it's because we are not that hard core as a group, to pay what it costs to buy said developed products, IMO.
And when we as racers, not street/strip guys, don't support the technology that's out there, these guys decide not to waste anymore money on the stuff they made for us, that doesn't sell.
I would bet Diablo will spend over 50K if he decides to go Mopar for the same thing a GM can go buy for $38,000 from Schmidt, I know I've been looking at that stuff. So if Diablo decides to go that route, he's as loyal to Mopar as it gets. I'm not sure I will be in the future. And I applaud the Indy, 440 Source, Koffels, Pete and Chuck, Steve G., and anybody else that still wants to develop stuff for my hobby.
I got tired of restoring car (all Mopars) and taking them to car shows and parking lots, long ago. But for those that get a kick out of that, great. I'm a racer now and find it very hard to step up in class with my budget, while remaining loyal to Mopar. So I may eventually change over to the "dark side" and we are cheap, including me, about what we're willing to pay for our loyalty in comparison to the previously mentioned innovators.
I thank Steve for building my Predator the way he did, and for the price he did it for, but I still whined about the money. It was a great deal and I would recommend him to anybody. He built my motor like it was going to be his, and that's passion and commitment in my book.
That's right, I said it, rant over.
PS, you would be hard pressed to buy the same GM or Ford, for what he charged me, and I still whined.
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 05:13 AM
I need to take something back I said in my last post. Brandon/440 Source, doesn't really belong in the other group as, and correct me if I'm wrong, but he made parts already being produced, just cheaper. The others engineered, or paid people to engineer parts that advanced the Mopar race parts selection. I'm not saying his stuff isn't good for some applications, but not for me. JMO
Posted By: jamesc
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 05:45 AM
when all is said and done it's simple economics, supply and demand. that's why you can get parts for a small block chevy at the grocery store. i'm no expert but cost aside probably the biggest choke point in the mopar design is the bore spacing. at this level when it comes to brand recognition you're really stretching it imho.
as far as parts costs there are fewer people willing to step up and spend big money on chrysler parts so why would any reasonable businessman get involved in the design and manufacturing of something he can't make a good (or any) profit on? exactly how many predator engines do you think are in the whole country? i bet there's more bb chevys in most individual states that predator engines in the whole country. if you want to say you run a chrysler then spend the money, otherwise you need to go to chevy or i guess even ford now days.
i've seen people argue that at higher levels it costs the same regardless of manufacture and that's just not so plain and simple. $ per HP the chrysler is going to cost more.
as far as parts costs there are fewer people willing to step up and spend big money on chrysler parts so why would any reasonable businessman get involved in the design and manufacturing of something he can't make a good (or any) profit on? exactly how many predator engines do you think are in the whole country? i bet there's more bb chevys in most individual states that predator engines in the whole country. if you want to say you run a chrysler then spend the money, otherwise you need to go to chevy or i guess even ford now days.
i've seen people argue that at higher levels it costs the same regardless of manufacture and that's just not so plain and simple. $ per HP the chrysler is going to cost more.
Posted By: MoparBilly
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 07:43 AM
Quote:
I hear you, I do agree, that list is old.
Curious still ( not trying to be a smart a..) how many members do have door cars N/A running sub 8 sec time slips here ?
Tom
Tom,
Not to be a smart a, but to what purpose would someone set out to build a sub 8 sec N/A door car??? Top Sportsman allows N20, Q/16 does too, what there is of it. Don't need that much to run SC/SG (Although it would be nice!!) Most heads-up stuff isn't NA, and if it is, there are chassis/tire/weight restrictions which keeps the cars from the sub 8 second zone.
This is what I mean by a niche market..what you guys are calling "Hard Core" racers, even the opportunity to race those cars is dwindling.
Posted By: RT540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 08:06 AM
Billy, I am, but I guess I am in the minority.
I am going to run an Index class with 7.60 ET and 7.50 break out.
I have B1 originals with titan. 2.30" and T&D 5/8" shaft rockers.
With Predator heads I could probably skip spray, or use very little.
Most fast cars here, have B1´s orig/ MC or 572-13 heads, and the step up to Predators with new headers, pistons and what you can sell your old stuff is pretty big, for me anyway.
I tried to answer the question, from my perspective.
I am going to run an Index class with 7.60 ET and 7.50 break out.
I have B1 originals with titan. 2.30" and T&D 5/8" shaft rockers.
With Predator heads I could probably skip spray, or use very little.
Most fast cars here, have B1´s orig/ MC or 572-13 heads, and the step up to Predators with new headers, pistons and what you can sell your old stuff is pretty big, for me anyway.
I tried to answer the question, from my perspective.
Posted By: MoparBilly
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 03:30 PM
Quote:
I am going to run an Index class with 7.60 ET and 7.50 break out.
I have B1 originals with titan. 2.30" and T&D 5/8" shaft rockers.
With Predator heads I could probably skip spray, or use very little.
Most fast cars here, have B1´s orig/ MC or 572-13 heads, and the step up to Predators with new headers, pistons and what you can sell your old stuff is pretty big, for me anyway.
I tried to answer the question, from my perspective.
Tom,
Your perspective is exactly what I was looking for, I had no idea such a class existed, and the motivation/cost to move from the more conventional stuff is exactly what I'm trying to understand. Diablo's perspective is likewise unique, as many of us wouldn't have a clue what competing in that arena is like. I understand where Tom(cat) and Al are coming from a bit more, as they race the southwest as I do, but what's going on in the east and southeast would probably suprise me.
So, With your short season, If you were to run this 7.60 index, and compete for a full year, how many passes 40? 60? how many do you put on your current combo before you take it apart?
Posted By: RT540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 04:02 PM
This class is called ProStreet, but doesn´t have anything to do with your class with the same name.
Basically a fixed ET bracket racing but with a Pro tree start, which is all I want to race. Only door cars, with minimum weight breaks for Big/ small block and a penalty weight for clutch.
A new faster class called SuperProstreet started last summer with 6.90ET and no minimum weight, and would fit my Haas car even better, but way out of my league for engine budget.
I have not raced since 2002, and that was with my Coronet-69, so I don´t know exactly how many events this class has total in Sweden. Probably about 8-10 weekends.
I will start out slow, without spray in ET super pro, even if I don´t want to run handicap starts, but I need seat time and sort out bugs N/A before I will buy a nitrous converter and a fogger.
With good( constant) vacuum in engine and no big changes in valve lash, I plan to keep the engine togheter for the whole summer, thats a big if....
Basically a fixed ET bracket racing but with a Pro tree start, which is all I want to race. Only door cars, with minimum weight breaks for Big/ small block and a penalty weight for clutch.
A new faster class called SuperProstreet started last summer with 6.90ET and no minimum weight, and would fit my Haas car even better, but way out of my league for engine budget.
I have not raced since 2002, and that was with my Coronet-69, so I don´t know exactly how many events this class has total in Sweden. Probably about 8-10 weekends.
I will start out slow, without spray in ET super pro, even if I don´t want to run handicap starts, but I need seat time and sort out bugs N/A before I will buy a nitrous converter and a fogger.
With good( constant) vacuum in engine and no big changes in valve lash, I plan to keep the engine togheter for the whole summer, thats a big if....
Posted By: poisondart2
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 04:59 PM
I read all the responses to this and I would say Yeah they are expensive for what you get. It's the best option out there? Well Yes but you can't compete as there is not enough power? Does this make any sense in anyone's mind? Well just buy them and hope for the best? Mopar people are cheap because they won't buy them? What is there 3 to 4 people on here with them? This post is just like the NO2 post are you kidding ? Gee this is what I want to spend 40k to go slower than the next guy but can say it's Mopar Powered (really)? Power adder is the only answer and if you can't run this in your class Good Luck! Cold 85 is one of the few people on here that makes sense to me and now Jimmy also. 
Posted By: EchoSixMike
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 05:28 PM
Well, since they let people start changing bore centers and deck heights, the name on the engine doesn't really mean squat anymore.
Absent this, the winner would probably be decided between the Ford 385 series engine, 4.90 BS, 10.320 deck height and the RB 4.84BS, 10.725 deck height depending on how much crank you can fit in there, even the tall deck Chebby is way behind at 4.84 BS and 9.8 deck height, so you just couldn't get the inches out of it.
If you're cube limited, the Ford is gonna walk away with it, just because you can get more bore and thus more valve and rpm for a given displacement. This is demonstrated by NHRA Pro Stock. S/F.....Ken M
Absent this, the winner would probably be decided between the Ford 385 series engine, 4.90 BS, 10.320 deck height and the RB 4.84BS, 10.725 deck height depending on how much crank you can fit in there, even the tall deck Chebby is way behind at 4.84 BS and 9.8 deck height, so you just couldn't get the inches out of it.
If you're cube limited, the Ford is gonna walk away with it, just because you can get more bore and thus more valve and rpm for a given displacement. This is demonstrated by NHRA Pro Stock. S/F.....Ken M
Posted By: Mopar_racer_99
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 05:39 PM
Ok, I dont know about anyone else, but for 2500 dollars more than I have in my set of -1's . I could have afforded to buy a set of predators. We have the jesel 1.6 rockers, 1500+ worth of porting, 2.3 valves, 1.64 springs,ti retainers...ect... If I was doing it again, I would have went predator from the get go and have head to grow in. John 
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 06:20 PM
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
Posted By: B1Fish540
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 06:33 PM
Quote:
Well, since they let people start changing bore centers and deck heights, the name on the engine doesn't really mean squat anymore.
Absent this, the winner would probably be decided between the Ford 385 series engine, 4.90 BS, 10.320 deck height and the RB 4.84BS, 10.725 deck height depending on how much crank you can fit in there, even the tall deck Chebby is way behind at 4.84 BS and 9.8 deck height, so you just couldn't get the inches out of it.
If you're cube limited, the Ford is gonna walk away with it, just because you can get more bore and thus more valve and rpm for a given displacement. This is demonstrated by NHRA Pro Stock. S/F.....Ken M
bigger is better.
Posted By: Diablo
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 09:46 PM
Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
This reminds me of
Years back when the local pulling club took the Nitros off me a guy told me (he had a 500ci at the time) if I didn't have the money to play with the big boys then I should stay home. Well that pissed my wife off and we "found" the money and bought our first 496ci and won the points that next season.
Now last year a guy with a schmit 650 told my wife that we could never win on a power track and only on driver tracks..... Well let's just say pissing off my wife gets me new motors
Posted By: Dodgeguy101
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/27/12 09:49 PM
Quote:Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
This reminds me of
Years back when the local pulling club took the Nitros off me a guy told me (he had a 500ci at the time) if I didn't have the money to play with the big boys then I should stay home. Well that pissed my wife off and we "found" the money and bought our first 496ci and won the points that next season.
Now last year a guy with a schmit 650 told my wife that we could never win on a power track and only on driver tracks..... Well let's just say pissing off my wife gets me new motors
Does she have a sister that thinks like that, Daddy wants a bigger motor!
Posted By: cbarracuda
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/28/12 04:13 AM
Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
you don't need 10,000 heads to race in a 10.90 index
Posted By: Eric
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/28/12 04:46 AM
Posted By: MoparBilly
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/28/12 06:28 AM
Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
And if you can't afford a 6.0 cert chassis car??
Actually, right now, I'd be thrilled to go slow...and yes I found a new hobby, but I'm not sure running footraces at 47 and 275 lbs. is a long term alternative to drag racing!!
Posted By: boatracer572
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/28/12 06:56 AM
Quote:Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
This reminds me of
Years back when the local pulling club took the Nitros off me a guy told me (he had a 500ci at the time) if I didn't have the money to play with the big boys then I should stay home. Well that pissed my wife off and we "found" the money and bought our first 496ci and won the points that next season.
Now last year a guy with a schmit 650 told my wife that we could never win on a power track and only on driver tracks..... Well let's just say pissing off my wife gets me new motors
Your wife and mine should spend time together!!! LOL.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/28/12 07:08 AM
Quote:Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
you don't need 10,000 heads to race in a 10.90 index
Ya know you are exactly right. I dont have $10,000 heads and do quite nicely running 10.90 thank you
Posted By: go green
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/28/12 07:15 AM
Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
There is nothing wrong with the price of these cylinder heads . I will say this 1000 times and it will be true every time .
IT DIDNT COST ANYMORE TO BUILD MY ENGINE BECOUSE ITS A MOPAR ... I JUST HAVE LESS OPTIONS TO CHOSE FROM .
Crank, pistons valves , intake manifold , camshaft, pushrods ,valve springs, valves ..cost the same
Does my 6.0 cert car care if I have a Mopar headed engine in it ??? or a barracuda body or a Nova body ???..... NO
Ford 9" rear end and a TH210 transmission with a Marty chance converter care if I have a Mopar Head driving it ... NO
Wheelie bars and turbos, beadlocks and spindle mounts rims and a BS3 ECU all the bells and whistles........ nope
Its all part of the package ..
The heads are actually the cheapest part of the build .
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: predator heads over priced? - 02/28/12 05:01 PM
Quote:Quote:
If you think the Predator set up is to expensive find another hobby or be content to go slow
There is nothing wrong with the price of these cylinder heads . I will say this 1000 times and it will be true every time .
IT DIDNT COST ANYMORE TO BUILD MY ENGINE BECOUSE ITS A MOPAR ... I JUST HAVE LESS OPTIONS TO CHOSE FROM .
Crank, pistons valves , intake manifold , camshaft, pushrods ,valve springs, valves ..cost the same
Does my 6.0 cert car care if I have a Mopar headed engine in it ??? or a barracuda body or a Nova body ???..... NO
Ford 9" rear end and a TH210 transmission with a Marty chance converter care if I have a Mopar Head driving it ... NO
Wheelie bars and turbos, beadlocks and spindle mounts rims and a BS3 ECU all the bells and whistles........ nope
Its all part of the package ..
The heads are actually the cheapest part of the build .
What he said.
Posted By: 440sourcedotcom
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/03/23 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by camastomcat
I need to take something back I said in my last post. Brandon/440 Source, doesn't really belong in the other group as, and correct me if I'm wrong, but he made parts already being produced, just cheaper. The others engineered, or paid people to engineer parts that advanced the Mopar race parts selection. I'm not saying his stuff isn't good for some applications, but not for me. JMO
Uhh, we designed our Stealth cylinder head. We paid roughly the cost of a house to manufacture the tooling. Look at this head from the side, front or back and it looks like no other aftermarket head. If anything, it actually looks like a stock head which is what it is made to resemble. The chamber is 80cc's. No other aftermarket Mopar head comes with an 80cc chamber. But on Moparts, we "don't really belong in the other group" (of cylinder head manufacturers) because we "made parts already being produced, just cheaper." Who exactly was making our Stealth heads before we were? Gotta love Moparts.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/03/23 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by 440sourcedotcom
Originally Posted by camastomcat
I need to take something back I said in my last post. Brandon/440 Source, doesn't really belong in the other group as, and correct me if I'm wrong, but he made parts already being produced, just cheaper. The others engineered, or paid people to engineer parts that advanced the Mopar race parts selection. I'm not saying his stuff isn't good for some applications, but not for me. JMO
Uhh, we designed our Stealth cylinder head. We paid roughly the cost of a house to manufacture the tooling. Look at this head from the side, front or back and it looks like no other aftermarket head. If anything, it actually looks like a stock head which is what it is made to resemble. The chamber is 80cc's. No other aftermarket Mopar head comes with an 80cc chamber. But on Moparts, we "don't really belong in the other group" (of cylinder head manufacturers) because we "made parts already being produced, just cheaper." Who exactly was making our Stealth heads before we were? Gotta love Moparts.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/03/23 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by 440sourcedotcom
Originally Posted by camastomcat
I need to take something back I said in my last post. Brandon/440 Source, doesn't really belong in the other group as, and correct me if I'm wrong, but he made parts already being produced, just cheaper. The others engineered, or paid people to engineer parts that advanced the Mopar race parts selection. I'm not saying his stuff isn't good for some applications, but not for me. JMO
Uhh, we designed our Stealth cylinder head. We paid roughly the cost of a house to manufacture the tooling. Look at this head from the side, front or back and it looks like no other aftermarket head. If anything, it actually looks like a stock head which is what it is made to resemble. The chamber is 80cc's. No other aftermarket Mopar head comes with an 80cc chamber. But on Moparts, we "don't really belong in the other group" (of cylinder head manufacturers) because we "made parts already being produced, just cheaper." Who exactly was making our Stealth heads before we were? Gotta love Moparts.
Moparts has been around for a LONG time and has had many different people on it. Please don't paint all of us with the same brush. Being less sensitive to criticism (from 2012 
) will help you sleep better at night. Lastly, always remember 
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/03/23 08:07 PM
Yaa JohnRR used to bash 440source every other day back then.
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/04/23 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Yaa JohnRR used to bash 440source every other day back then.
I still do when applicable
Posted By: HardcoreB
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/05/23 01:49 AM
Despite any banter it's nice to read an old post with some old personalities not around anymore. I personally appreciate the engineering that went into the Predator head, I sure wish Steve Gill would drop in occasionally.
Posted By: J_BODY
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/05/23 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Yaa JohnRR used to bash 440source every other day back then.
and there’s a ton of hard running bracket engines running there stuff. Not to the degree of HP of the earlier content of this post, but still pretty stout for the $$$.
A trip down moparts memory lane.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/05/23 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by 440sourcedotcom
Originally Posted by camastomcat
I need to take something back I said in my last post. Brandon/440 Source, doesn't really belong in the other group as, and correct me if I'm wrong, but he made parts already being produced, just cheaper. The others engineered, or paid people to engineer parts that advanced the Mopar race parts selection. I'm not saying his stuff isn't good for some applications, but not for me. JMO
Uhh, we designed our Stealth cylinder head. We paid roughly the cost of a house to manufacture the tooling. Look at this head from the side, front or back and it looks like no other aftermarket head. If anything, it actually looks like a stock head which is what it is made to resemble. The chamber is 80cc's. No other aftermarket Mopar head comes with an 80cc chamber. But on Moparts, we "don't really belong in the other group" (of cylinder head manufacturers) because we "made parts already being produced, just cheaper." Who exactly was making our Stealth heads before we were? Gotta love Moparts.
Agree, we are a tough love bunch, that's for sure....
I run your stuff, and I couldn't afford this hobby without the products you make. I have purchased a ton of your 512's a couple 526's and one 543 rotating assemblies from you over the years. Much appreciate it.
Posted By: pittsburghracer
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/05/23 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by J_BODY
Originally Posted by pittsburghracer
Yaa JohnRR used to bash 440source every other day back then.
and there’s a ton of hard running bracket engines running there stuff. Not to the degree of HP of the earlier content of this post, but still pretty stout for the $$$.
A trip down moparts memory lane.
Not super fast but I went 8.40’s@160 mph with their rods and pistons. And 8.60’s with their rods, crank, and pistons. That assembly is still running strong in a street car 15 years later.
Posted By: Pacnorthcuda
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/05/23 04:29 PM
I’m running Stealth heads on my 440, 15 years now. No problems at all.
Posted By: CSK
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/05/23 04:43 PM
I have their 512 low deck stroker kit & the Super Stealth heads , VERY pleased with them !!!!!!
Posted By: FastmOp
Re: predator heads over priced? - 05/06/23 12:34 AM
Still running 4's with there crank.!