Moparts

Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle?

Posted By: drdan

Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 08:38 PM

I am in the midst of picking a cam and lifter setup for a blown 440. I was under the impression that a solid roller won't live very long on the street due to the lack of oiling at idle. Is this really an issue? I have another motor that has a solid roller setup with a Jesel system, but I don't drive it on the street for that reason. Let me hear from those that know, thanks Dan.
Posted By: BradH

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 08:44 PM

Spend some time learning the Search feature and you'll probably be able to dig up a dozen threads over the last few years that get into exactly this debate.
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 09:41 PM

yes they live on the street.
dont know about the idle problem my old 340 sat mostly idling at +-800rpms for 8+straight hours during a warm summercruisenight
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 09:54 PM

In every thread about solid rollers on the street, you will hear some say "I have been doing it for years" and others say "dont do it".

So, you pick!
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 10:20 PM

I'll be running one in my drag week car... the lifters
have roller oiling(hole in the lifter)
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 10:41 PM

Quote:

In every thread about solid rollers on the street, you will hear some say "I have been doing it for years" and others say "dont do it".

So, you pick!


Most that will tell you not to do it, haven't done it themselves.

My hemi doesn't even have pressure oiling to the lifters (solid rollers). The only oil they get is either splashed on them or drainback from the heads. Going on 5 years now w/ no problems.
Posted By: moparniac

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 11:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

In every thread about solid rollers on the street, you will hear some say "I have been doing it for years" and others say "dont do it".

So, you pick!


Most that will tell you not to do it, haven't done it themselves.

My hemi doesn't even have pressure oiling to the lifters (solid rollers). The only oil they get is either splashed on them or drainback from the heads. Going on 5 years now w/ no problems.



someone will call you a liar soon
Posted By: Old School

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 11:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

In every thread about solid rollers on the street, you will hear some say "I have been doing it for years" and others say "dont do it".

So, you pick!


Most that will tell you not to do it, haven't done it themselves.

My hemi doesn't even have pressure oiling to the lifters (solid rollers). The only oil they get is either splashed on them or drainback from the heads. Going on 5 years now w/ no problems.


same here ...well over 5 years. comp 829,s k motion 1000h springs.825# @1.200"
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 11:22 PM

boils down to a few things.
-cam aggression
-spring pressure
Thats why you can get so many diff opinions. You cant compare what one person says to another unless the engine and conditions are identical.. FACT
Posted By: slantzilla

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 11:37 PM

The guy at the shop I worked at used to recommend solid rollers for the guys who were just cruisers because they held up to all the idling around better than flat tappets.
Posted By: topbrent

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/08/11 11:54 PM

Here is a quick summary of the general responses of the past 50 threads on this exact topic:

"Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle?"

HECK YES, DO IT!
HECK NO, You'll be sorry!
POSSIBLY, But...!

There is your clear answer.....
Posted By: ToddP

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 12:10 AM

Oiling should not be a problem

Ramp profile is the limiting factor for street use.

Mild ramp profile,adequate spring pressure, limited low rpm idleing...
No Problem..

Agressive ramp profile, inadequate spring pressure , prolonged idleing... Problems....
Posted By: ChrgrCuda

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 12:47 AM

I don't know whether to get excited or depressed yet. I have built a solid roller big block stroker, haven't fired it yet, and my emotions are a roller coaster watching these posts about solid rollers! Lol. Some of the solid roller responses can make you act bipolar. So I just say
Posted By: Evil67

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 12:58 AM

I have never had a roller lifter failure but I have a had a solid lifter failure......go figure.....

Maybe take a poll of people with lifter/cam failures vs type of cam/lifter combo.....
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 01:05 AM

SCAREY stuff .....

There have been several posts here about lifter failures and how it TRASHES the motor....

I am planning a special RV build that might require a very aggressive cam(near 600 lift, quick ramp, short duration) ....and would need roller lifters .... but I sure don't want to be on-the-road and have a lifter come apart.

uNtil I can find a reliable combo ....I am going to stick with a "regular" cam ...
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 01:12 AM

Quote:

I'll be running one in my drag week car... the lifters
have roller oiling(hole in the lifter)




What brand ??



At the Indy show on the weekend I saw Hughes had his house-brand roller lifters at a very reasonable price. I asked if they had roller oiling and the reply was no and that he didn't think ANYONE was making them for big block Mopars. You'd think he'd have a line right in to the lifter and cam manufacturers, wouldn't you ?!?
Posted By: HEMIDARTS

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 01:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'll be running one in my drag week car... the lifters
have roller oiling(hole in the lifter)




What brand ??



At the Indy show on the weekend I saw Hughes had his house-brand roller lifters at a very reasonable price. I asked if they had roller oiling and the reply was no and that he didn't think ANYONE was making them for big block Mopars. You'd think he'd have a line right in to the lifter and cam manufacturers, wouldn't you ?!?



Maybe big blocks dont have them, but do small blocks?
Mr.P is running a small block if i am not mistaken.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 01:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll be running one in my drag week car... the lifters
have roller oiling(hole in the lifter)




What brand ??



At the Indy show on the weekend I saw Hughes had his house-brand roller lifters at a very reasonable price. I asked if they had roller oiling and the reply was no and that he didn't think ANYONE was making them for big block Mopars. You'd think he'd have a line right in to the lifter and cam manufacturers, wouldn't you ?!?



Maybe big blocks dont have them, but do small blocks?
Mr.P is running a small block if i am not mistaken.



Yes its a small block... I got the lifters from Brian
(ou812 ) here on the board... not sure if they were
going to be made by Comp... but I bought direct from
him
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 01:52 AM

Quote:

I don't know whether to get excited or depressed yet. I have built a solid roller big block stroker, haven't fired it yet, and my emotions are a roller coaster watching these posts about solid rollers! Lol. Some of the solid roller responses can make you act bipolar. So I just say

You think it`s a roller coaster now, wait till you drive it. Solid roller all the way...........6 years myself and just had the rollers rebuilt and two were going away w/LOTS of street miles. Check out the vid below.....
Posted By: ChrgrCuda

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 01:56 AM

Awesome Thumper! Here is my emotion now Thanks buddy. I probably need to turn off the computer now so I will sleep well. Lol.
Posted By: David_in_St_Croi

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 03:10 AM

Boy I hope so as that is what is in our 70 RR. Going on a year now and the last time I checked the lash things were fine.

For what it is worth Series Land Rovers from the 60's use solid rollers and they are designed for longevity while being maintained by drunk missionaries in the middle of the Kalahari.
Posted By: HEMIDARTS

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 03:27 AM

I sure hope they will live, because i am putting a 626 lift cam with solid rollers in my Dart!
Posted By: astjp2

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 03:36 AM

Crane 95550 and Crower 66255H both have pushrod oiling

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I'll be running one in my drag week car... the lifters
have roller oiling(hole in the lifter)




What brand ??



At the Indy show on the weekend I saw Hughes had his house-brand roller lifters at a very reasonable price. I asked if they had roller oiling and the reply was no and that he didn't think ANYONE was making them for big block Mopars. You'd think he'd have a line right in to the lifter and cam manufacturers, wouldn't you ?!?



Maybe big blocks dont have them, but do small blocks?
Mr.P is running a small block if i am not mistaken.

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 03:42 AM

so does the COMP 8043-16
Posted By: ahy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 04:08 AM

Slightly off topic, but the bronze pin roller setup (no roller bearings) is well proven in industrial applications. Very high loads with diesel injection pressure, marginal lubrication and long life. Also inherently cost effective. Hopefully the aftermarket will catch up. The Isky "Red Zone" with bronze pin sounds good (I've never run it) but expensive.
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 04:32 AM

Quote:

Awesome Thumper! Here is my emotion now Thanks buddy. I probably need to turn off the computer now so I will sleep well. Lol.

As stated, street friendly lobes w/moderate spring pressures will live a long healthy life on the street/strip especially if you keep an eye on the lash and change your oil regularly.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 04:32 AM

I can't help wondering why those Red Zones are so damn expensive while having a bronze bushing rather than rollers! One thing for sure, it has to be harder-than-average bronze given the high load and the small area that has to handle it.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 04:36 AM

Quote:

Crane 95550 and Crower 66255H both have pushrod oiling




We're not talking about pushrod oiling!
Posted By: dOoC

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 04:47 AM

Also ... how about the "life" of the intermediate shaft gear ? NEVER run one of those me-self ... but I think that there have been quite-a-few posts on how they wear-out...
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 04:49 AM

I`ve changed mine once after about 4 years but didn`t really need to just a preventative manover I guess.
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 07:52 PM

Quote:

I can't help wondering why those Red Zones are so damn expensive while having a bronze bushing rather than rollers! One thing for sure, it has to be harder-than-average bronze given the high load and the small area that has to handle it.



wiperdies and mandrels for rotarydraw mandrel tubebending Stainless steel,titanium and other exotic metals are made out of Alubronze and they are put under enormus stress on fairly small areas and will survive pretty good aslong as being propperly handled so i would thinks its somekind of simmilar mix
Posted By: domingo

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 08:23 PM

its not a matter if the lifters are solid or roller or whatver....

its more about how aggressive is the cam you plan on using and how stiff are the springs.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 08:33 PM

Rev kit.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 09:27 PM

Quote:

Rev kit.


bingo
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 09:39 PM

Quote:

Rev kit.



That pretty much dictates using Isky stuff. With the added cost of the rev kit you may as well just upgrade to the Red Zone lifters and forget the rev kit.
Posted By: an8sec70cuda

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 09:58 PM

Buy good stuff to start with and you don't need a rev kit.
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 10:49 PM

Quote:

Rev kit.



How can that help?
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 11:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Rev kit.



How can that help?


it keeps the lifter wheels in contact with the cam, eliminating "skidding". it also reduces the valve spring requirement, allowing a more endurance oriented spring selection (loss of spring tension is a lifter killer, as you know).
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 11:12 PM

I have only heard about rev kits but im a lost believing you need he same pressure a he lifer/wheel?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/09/11 11:32 PM

Quote:

I have only heard about rev kits but im a lost believing you need he same pressure a he lifer/wheel?



I dont think I have ever seen a rev kit for a Mopar,
I have for chevy
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 12:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have only heard about rev kits but im a lost believing you need he same pressure a he lifer/wheel?



I dont think I have ever seen a rev kit for a Mopar,
I have for chevy



i think isky is the last one.
Posted By: drdan

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 12:48 AM

Thanks for all of the replies. I searched as usual to find... yes they will work, no they will self destruct if you idle too much, etc. I have a solid roller setup on a procharged SBC, but I tend to rev it a bit at the stop lights. I did run an Isky rev kit in it before the huge cam I was running broke some of the springs in the rev kit and chewed up some of the aluminum cups. Smaller cam went in and haven't had an issue. The blown 440 is the wife's car and I'm just trying to sort which cam setup I should go with using the advice of people who have done this more than I have. Thanks. Dan.
Posted By: shoebox

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 01:08 AM

Ive got a herbert solid roller cam and lifters going in my street 440 and plan on driving it!!
Posted By: Bob_Coomer

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 01:35 AM

Rev kit is a band-aid
Forget those things. Run the correct springs for the application and forget those Dinosaurs.
How can they help with a poor design or cheap made lifter that the pin falls out of the wheel etc.
I dont understand the idle thing either. How can a engine at idle be hard on the lifters? Again another compromise and band-aid for a engine with oiling issue.
Keep away from cheap lifters, and keep spring pressure reasonable, get a valve spring that will control the valve's and run it.
In the end no one is going to know if it will survive or not, about as accurate as playing the lottery and expecting to win
Choose good parts, good assembly technique, along with correct part selection will go a long way.
I dont know about you but I like to make educated guess's off research and past experiance more so than "he said so"
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 01:41 AM

Quote:

I dont think I have ever seen a rev kit for a Mopar



There's a pic of a BB Isky setup in Andy's book.

The purpose of the valvespring is to get all the components back to their static or closed position after a valve event. This includes the valve, locks, retainer, rocker, pushrod and lifter. Furthermore, it has to do this without leaving any gap between the components which would result in damage.

Any spring would do the job except that as the ramp rate, lift and speed increases, so does the momentum of all the components. It takes a lot of pressure to stop all those things dead in their tracks and then push them the other way!

A rev kit has springs between the heads and the lifters and the purpose is to keep the lifters in contact with the cam. As a result, the valvesprings no longer have to deal with lifter weight so the valvespring pressures can be decreased. How much would be determined by the pressure of the rev kit springs.

Still, quality valvetrain components will yield good results without having to go the rev kit route. I'd bet that less than 1% of the Mopar roller setups out there are using rev kits.
Posted By: mshred

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 02:37 AM

sorry if im going off topic here, but does isky make a rev kit for smallblock mopars? specifically for hydr. rollers?
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 02:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I dont think I have ever seen a rev kit for a Mopar



There's a pic of a BB Isky setup in Andy's book.

The purpose of the valvespring is to get all the components back to their static or closed position after a valve event. This includes the valve, locks, retainer, rocker, pushrod and lifter. Furthermore, it has to do this without leaving any gap between the components which would result in damage.

Any spring would do the job except that as the ramp rate, lift and speed increases, so does the momentum of all the components. It takes a lot of pressure to stop all those things dead in their tracks and then push them the other way!

A rev kit has springs between the heads and the lifters and the purpose is to keep the lifters in contact with the cam. As a result, the valvesprings no longer have to deal with lifter weight so the valvespring pressures can be decreased. How much would be determined by the pressure of the rev kit springs.

Still, quality valvetrain components will yield good results without having to go the rev kit route. I'd bet that less than 1% of the Mopar roller setups out there are using rev kits.



I know what they are but never even knew they made
them for a Mopar.... I really doubt they would even
make one for the SB with the angle on the PR... I
never planned on using one, I just never seen one
for a Mopar... my springs have 250 seat and about
640 open... its a little less than I'm use to running
but the engine I'm building now will only run to
like 7200 rpm... real low for me
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 05:01 AM

There are 2 methods of removing lash, which is what destroys rollers:
1. hydraulic lifters
2. rev kit
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 12:31 PM

i know this gets a little off topic but wouldnt the total pressure on the lifter/cam be the same with a revkit as with harder springs?
I think a weak valvetrain woulod benefit a rev kit because of less deflection, but otherwise i dont see any use for it.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 03:36 PM

No.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 04:37 PM

Quote:

wouldnt the total pressure on the lifter/cam be the same with a revkit as with harder springs



No. Because of valve lash there would be no pressure from the valvespring on the lifter at all, only the pressure of the revkit spring.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 05:01 PM

Quote:

Rev kit is a band-aid



i disagree. the rev kit was designed with a specific purpose in mind, and it's deletion from common use is a mistake, imo. it is not redundant. that's like saying a cylinder head is a crutch for maintaining cylinder pressure- ludicrous. the rev kit was almost universal in the "olden days". i don't ever remember seeing so many lifter failures back then, and i never experienced one when using a rev kit. i see a lifter failure every weekend at the track, nowadays. unacceptable.
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 08:14 PM

Quote:

Quote:

wouldnt the total pressure on the lifter/cam be the same with a revkit as with harder springs



No. Because of valve lash there would be no pressure from the valvespring on the lifter at all, only the pressure of the revkit spring.



You mean that there is pressure on the lifter without revkit?

Am i a stupid mother &¤#"&???
Could someone please explain how it works.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 08:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

wouldnt the total pressure on the lifter/cam be the same with a revkit as with harder springs



No. Because of valve lash there would be no pressure from the valvespring on the lifter at all, only the pressure of the revkit spring.



You mean that there is pressure on the lifter without revkit?

Am i a stupid mother &¤#"&???
Could someone please explain how it works.


without a rev kit, there is no pressure on the lifter when it is on the base circle of the cam.
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 08:24 PM

that i do understand but how come you dont need as much spring pressures? The valvetrains mass is still the same...
Posted By: ZIPPY

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 08:41 PM

The rev kit forces the lifter to follow the cam profile at all times, and any lash that is used in the system is upstairs from the lifter.

From someone who is a big proponent of street rollers here's my advice:

If you don't want to run any given part for any given reason, then don't do it Do whatever you deem the best plan for you and whatever gives you a decent amount of confidence.

However....keep in mind some people run around on the street with 15:1 compression and aluminum rods....yet they won't use a roller because of perceived reliability issues.
As if what they already have is going to last forever

Everything we do to make more power has some sort of potential reliability sacrifice. It may not always be enough to notice, but it's always there. To think otherwise is kidding oneself.

It's all good, build your car/engine any way you want, the important thing is to have fun with it.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 08:46 PM

Quote:

that i do understand but how come you dont need as much spring pressures? The valvetrains mass is still the same...


the rev kit springs are typically 50-75 pounds of pressure directly on the lifters at all times. you could reduce the valve spring pressure by close to that amount (maybe even more, depending on rocker ratio). the rev kit spring is bearing directly on one of the heavier components of the valvetrain (granted it's on the disadvantaged side of the rocker).
Posted By: sshemi

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 08:58 PM

but the total revkit spring + valvespring pressure is still about the same?
Is the only reason to use a revkit about the lash?
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/10/11 09:02 PM

Quote:

but the total revkit spring + valvespring pressure is still about the same?
Is the only reason to use a revkit about the lash?


it's all about keeping the lifter wheel in contact with the cam lobe. you could run zero lash, but that's not feasible.
Posted By: Stanton

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/11/11 01:47 AM



1) It keeps the lifter in contact with the cam - at all times
2) It reduces the required valvespring pressures
3) It ensures that regardless of any top end breakage, there will be no loss of oil pressure due to a lifter flying out of its bore or damage to the cam or lifter from an unloaded lifter bouncing off it.

Its kind of a shame that there aren't more manufacturers producing these things !
Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/12/11 06:42 AM

most of what kills a roller lifter is too much lash. The wheel needs to stay on the lobe, if it bounces, things break. Need enough pressure to keep it in contact. On the flip side, too much pressure without enough oil can cause the needles to fail. I don't have any answers on what's the best for your application. Be nice if you could get some Isky pressurized bushed roller lifters, but I understand they are very sensitive to dirt in the oil.
Posted By: Crazy68Dart

Re: Will solid rollers live in a street vehicle? - 03/12/11 01:33 PM

I am not an engine builder, but I can't see why you would not want to use a rev kit. Anything you can do to better control the valve train in my opinion is a good thing. That and being able to take some pressure off things on the top side by reducing valve spring pressure seems smart. I would guess their use has been limited "recently" due to valve spring tech catching up with cam profiles. However, not all new things are good.

I actually had a rev kit for an RB setup years ago. I got a set of Isky solid rollers second hand and got the rev kit with them. Sent everything to Isky to have it checked out, lifters came back, rev kit did not, lol. They swore up and down they never saw the rev kit, so I'm not sure what happened. Either way, I would run one, the premise just makes sense to me. Especially for a street setup by allowing you to reduce valve spring pressure.

Since I have never actually installed one or saw one personally installed, what is the trick? Is there anything that needs to be done to the heads to make sure the top plate does not move around? Does the rev kit have to go on with the heads, or can it be inserted after the fact?
© 2024 Moparts Forums