Moparts
A ?? for actual bracket racers!!
Posted By: johnnyrotten
A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 04:59 AM
I was having a discussion with our new track operator and some racers tonight and this question came up. How much of an advantage do you think someone has in a bracket race with a delay box? NO crossover/crosstalk, just a single hit on a .500 full tree.? Don't care about the throttle stop at this point. He is having a quick 32 door car race, but it's open for all. I was trying to get some support for a NO electronic quick 32, like transbrake/2step only, race. So let's hear what you think.
Posted By: cl440
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 05:05 AM
A huge advantage. You can leave off the top bulb and add or subtract as needed to dial in your reaction time!
Posted By: '72CudaRacer
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 05:10 AM
But I've also seen some local footbrakers hold their own in a box class (local level).
Brian
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 05:14 AM
leaving on the first yellow with a delay will have an advantage...and yes some footbrakers can do a good job...but round after round the delay box will be more consisted..
Posted By: go green
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 05:18 AM
Most fast cars have delay boxes .
A .500 tree is painfully slow and its hard to be consistent when you have to sit on the last bulb and wait for it to go out.
Posted By: ChrisJohnston669
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 07:51 AM
If there is no cross over or cross talk that gives the advantage to the slowest guy. Clean tree.
Posted By: 68roadrunner
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:33 PM
Quote:
If there is no cross over or cross talk that gives the advantage to the slowest guy. Clean tree.
i disagree just add the et difference to your delay and leave on the other bulb. poor mans crossover.
to respond to the op, the box will have some advantage, a real fast car would be hard to setup for bottom bulb imo 
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:36 PM
Quote:
A huge advantage. You can leave off the top bulb and add or subtract as needed to dial in your reaction time!
easier to make changes vs adjusting the car.
Posted By: babarracuda
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:38 PM
I have a friend who has been foot brake bracket racing for almost 20 years. His average reaction time is .02. He won the heritage series in the 10.60 class a couple of years ago and he won all but one race. Typically he dials his car in to run 10.58-10.59 and lifts if he is ahead. he also runs 2 classes one with a .4 tree and the other with a .5 tree. He change front tires from small to big to get his reaction time for each class. In this old man's opinion delay boxes are for people who won't or can't practice enough to get their reactions consistant
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:41 PM
IMO, it is a big help once you learn to work the tree. The potential (no guarantees) improvement comes from two areas:
1) Reacting to the top bulb (first flash), can be more consistant
2) Adjusting the total RT with a computer is easier and more consistant than adjusting the driver or the car with mechanical changes.
So when you add those together, plus a good driver, the average RT of a delay box class is much better than without it. Roughly 0.010 vs 0.030 comparison, plus or minus. Your mileage may vary...
Ask the track operator to average all the RTs from last years delay box class and the same for the non-delay box class. Then post the results. Even an average from one big race (7-9 rounds) should be enough to make the point.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:42 PM
Quote:
I have a friend who has been foot brake bracket racing for almost 20 years. His average reaction time is .02. He won the heritage series in the 10.60 class a couple of years ago and he won all but one race. Typically he dials his car in to run 10.58-10.59 and lifts if he is ahead. he also runs 2 classes one with a .4 tree and the other with a .5 tree. He change front tires from small to big to get his reaction time for each class. In this old man's opinion delay boxes are for people who won't or can't practice enough to get their reactions consistant
sorry but I have to call BS on a .02 average footbrake racing. been doing this deal for far more than 20 years and have never seen a delay box driver much less a footbrake driver with a .02 average. (edit) well maybe so I was thinking .002
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:44 PM
Quote:
I was trying to get some support for a NO electronic quick 32, like transbrake/2step only, race. So let's hear what you think.
That is not a NO Electronics example. The transbrake and two step are both electronics.
That is a common mistake.
IMO, if you are going to put electronics in a car, put them all in.
Posted By: Dragula
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:49 PM
Quote:
But I've also seen some local footbrakers hold their own in a box class (local level).
Brian
X2
I have no fear of the guys with the boxes. I took a win home one night in a box class and for the final, the guy put my dial in, in his cross over, mine being the slower car with a 340 Cuda vs. a 468 powered Chevette...I tree'd him for the class win that night. They ran box and no box togather for whatever reason, and I weeded thru the whole class for the win.
In a quick 16 or quick 32, those guys use it for traction control off the launch a lot so they can have the throttle come in as the track will hold, so I am not so sure my opinion counts for weekly brackets...
If your on, your on, box or no box. Maybe the box is more consistant, but seat time will gain you that. You have to tweek some mechanical stuff, but I don't see a huge advantage to it if you know your car and where you react.
Posted By: babarracuda
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:52 PM
If I were still racing, I would want a no trans brake, no delay box, no throttle stop and no starting line rev limiter. When I started in the 60's, it was all driver and tuner. I hate finish line racing line in the NHRA super classes.
Posted By: cgall
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:53 PM
Go spend a racing day in the tower and look at the reaction times. The averages will reflect what 440Jim has stated. Delay box racers on average will be .02 to .03 better.
The box has also beem credited with making an average or poor bottom bulb racer a good top bulb racer. It takes a lot more discipline to concentrate on the full tree and hit your spot. It also takes more effort to sort out your car so that human reaction and car reaction work together. The delay box was created by Ike Hamma so that he could run Super Pro and Super Gas with the same setup.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 03:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I was trying to get some support for a NO electronic quick 32, like transbrake/2step only, race. So let's hear what you think.
That is not a NO Electronics example. The transbrake and two step are both electronics.
That is a common mistake.
IMO, if you are going to put electronics in a car, put them all in.
Thats the difference... around here(this division)
the trans brake isnt called electronics .... like
said if you have a fast reacting car its HARD to
split the last bulb after its out... with the box
its MUCH better and a more consistent light
Posted By: Leigh
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 04:19 PM
Quote:
i disagree just add the et difference to your delay and leave on the other bulb. poor mans crossover.
Alot of us carried calculators in 1985. lol That was part of the original reasoning for shading the tree. At least around here. It's not necessarally the driver that makes a good bottom bulb combo. If the car is off enough that conventional adjustments won't get it tight enough, the only recourse is to spend money. A small percentage of drivers have plain dumb luck with this, and get a reputation for being good, when in fact, their car driver fit was luck. Many, many more go home early.
Posted By: johnnyrotten
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 06:38 PM
Thanks to those who have responded.
I went through about a dozen different logbooks that were lent to me by box/no box racers. Approx. avg for a no box was a .028 and the box was .014. I don't know how tough the competition is in different parts of the country, but there are at least a dozen guys here that go CONSISTENT doube oooooo's.
I consider myself a decent no box racer and if I go .020-.030 for 8-10 passes in a row before screwing up, I'm happy!!
Myabe some magic footbrake guy can do better, fly'em out, I'll pay the expenses and let's go. LOL
If delay boxes were not a HUGE advantage for consistency why do ALL super classes run them? Of the hundreds of big buck bracket races around the country I think I read about ONE being won by a footbrake racer. And as far as a transbrake and 2 step being an electronic devise, they have been par for the course out west for only 20-25 years or so. Even the street/sportsman/heavy class can run them. Sorry about the long post, and thanks again for the input.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 06:41 PM
Quote:
Thanks to those who have responded. I went through about a dozen different logbooks that were lent to me by box/no box racers. Approx. avg for a no box was a .028 and the box was .014. I don't know how tough the competition is in different parts of the country, but there are at least a dozen guys here that go CONSISTENT doube oooooo's.
I consider myself a decent no box racer and if I go .020-.030 for 8-10 passes in a row before screwing up, I'm happy!! Myabe some magic footbrake guy can do better, fly'em out, I'll pay the expenses and let's go. LOL If delay boxes were not a HUGE advantage for consistency why do ALL super classes run them? Of the hundreds of big buck bracket races around the country I think I read about ONE being won by a footbrake racer. And as far as a transbrake and 2 step being an electronic devise, they have been par for the course out west for only 20-25 years or so. Even the street/sportsman/heavy class can run them. Sorry about the long post, and thanks again for the input.
like said the faster the car the more need for a delay box. they will go red leaving off the last bulb. thats why you see them more on super class and faster cars.
Posted By: johnnyrotten
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 06:47 PM
What delay box guy leaves off the bottom bulb? I thought you all left of the top bulb? It's just like a footbrake race, you don't pay attention to the other side of the tree, right?
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 06:49 PM
Quote:
Thanks to those who have responded. I went through about a dozen different logbooks that were lent to me by box/no box racers. Approx. avg for a no box was a .028 and the box was .014.
Thanks for the data. That is about what I would expect if all the racers were pretty good. And it is very close to what I posted above (0.010 vs 0.030).
I doubt my average foot brake light was that good (0.028). I do target 0.030, but there are some bad RTs that likely kill the actual average.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 07:09 PM
WOW I think some filks need to learn a little more about what a delay box does. I think some folks might confuse a delay box with a throttle stop.
I think what JohnnyRotten posted would be accurate at most e very track in the country. When looking at average reation times from box to no box you will find the box cars have a distint advantage on the tree.
I dont know any electronics or .90 racer that does not work very hard on getting thier cars to react quickly, allowing them to run as much delay as possible. This will allow for any short comings in track conditions or set up from track to track, for those who travel. Believe me every track is different and we carry different amounts of delay from track to track and many times lane to lane.
Now to the question at hand. IMO at a Q16 race why exclude anyone? A delay box with crossover should be allowed, after all it is a Q16/32 BRACKET race. I think a footbrake Q32 race is not gonna be a real crowd pleaser as, no offense intended here but full of slower cars. My car runs ok but not sure I could qualify for a Q32 race around here.
BTW if having the box makes you that much better please feel free to put one in your car and come play. I always enjoy folks who think it makes you a better racer, I often wonder if they think that then why dont they put one in and come race. Box races usually pay a good deal more to win than no box so why race for less? Especially if adding one makes it easier, and thus makes you a better racer. Just never understood this mentality. I already can hear it, we didn't race that way back in the day. Electronics is cheating it aint racing blah blah blah. We will gladly welcome you with open arms. IMO the biggest difference you will find between box and no box is the MOV..
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 07:11 PM
If you are running S/PRO with a box and leaving off the bottom bulb you are doing it wrong!
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 07:23 PM
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 07:25 PM
Quote:
If you are running S/PRO with a box and leaving off the bottom bulb you are doing it wrong!
no kidding
Posted By: B5 Bee
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 07:50 PM
If a statistical handicapper were to give an number that would equalize the box/no box classes, I think it would be around .030.
Posted By: cgall
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 08:50 PM
I also target .030 off the foot. If I am on my game, I can make small adjustments depending on who I am racing.
The thing I always tell kids about the transbrake/delay box is that if you miss the tree with the box, you might be .02 off and still have a chance to play the other end and win. If you miss the tree on the bottom bulb, it will usually mean a .090 light.
This is another reason the box makes an average/mediocre racer better.
Posted By: ChrisJohnston669
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 08:52 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If there is no cross over or cross talk that gives the advantage to the slowest guy. Clean tree.
i disagree just add the et difference to your delay and leave on the other bulb. poor mans crossover.
to respond to the op, the box will have some advantage, a real fast car would be hard to setup for bottom bulb imo
That makes it hard if the bulb is blocked.
Posted By: Dago Red
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 09:00 PM
"The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain"
Commander Montgomery Scott..............
Posted By: '72CudaRacer
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 09:16 PM
Quote:
It wouldn't suprise me that a good racer can win in either type of car, box, no box with a trans brake and lastly foot braking only 
A very good example of this statement is Steve Foley. 
At the postponed Hangover Nationals in Montgomery, Alabama yesterday, Steve won the box race and lost at 4 cars in the no box class. (he's in two different cars) Wouldn't surprise me to see him win one of them today.
Brian Dunnigan
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 09:24 PM
Quote:
This is another reason the box makes an average/mediocre racer better.
A good racer is a good racer no matter where you put them. Biondo, Fletcher, Richardson, Rampy, gecker on and on. They have all won with regularity both ways.
If you think a box makes it easier then I fail to understand why folks like this decide to race with no electronics for less money. Logic would dictate if that the above statement were true you would not be a very smart person to race for less money in no box. After all the box makes a mediocre racer better, imagine what it can do if you are good
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 10:12 PM
Quote:
A good racer is a good racer no matter where you put them. Biondo, Fletcher, Richardson, Rampy, gecker on and on. They have all won with regularity both ways.
If you think a box makes it easier then I fail to understand why folks like this decide to race with no electronics for less money. Logic would dictate if that the above statement were true you would not be a very smart person to race for less money in no box. After all the box makes a mediocre racer better, imagine what it can do if you are good
X100
Where a box really is an advantage is with a car that you can not get to leave decent or always goes red.
If a driver is all over the place on the tree to start with a box won't help at all.
Posted By: johnnyrotten
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 10:17 PM
Let me clarify something before the crying and pissing match continues, The series proposed is a quick 32,door car,12.99 and quicker, including Lh steer roadsters. No crossover/crosstalk is the only other rule. I want to see a no box AND box class to have a more level playing field for BOTH classes. How are the car counts split at all your local tracks? Here it's at least 3 to 1 no box to box cars. How many times is a guy going to get double oo'd in a no box car before he stays home or goes fishing? For me, maybe two.
And as far as the box not making you a better LEAVER, pull them out for the next super cat race and see how it goes.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 10:35 PM
So a Q32 race with a 12.99 cut off....
Hmmm where is that yawn smiley
As for removing the box in a .90 stuff. As long as no one has one I am all in. I ran no box for a number of years. Just as we work hard to get the car to react as quickly as possible to carry as much delay as possible we can do the same thing to slow it down and react slower.
If you belive the box makes you better then why the heck dont you have one? I am sure you spend plenty of money on other things to make your race program better. So if this mystery box makes you better then why dont you have one? I really dont understand the logic to this....
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/23/11 10:35 PM
Quote:
Let me clarify something before the crying and pissing match continues, The series proposed is a quick 32,door car,12.99 and quicker, including Lh steer roadsters. No crossover/crosstalk is the only other rule. I want to see a no box AND box class to have a more level playing field for BOTH classes. How are the car counts split at all your local tracks? Here it's at least 3 to 1 no box to box cars. How many times is a guy going to get double oo'd in a no box car before he stays home or goes fishing? For me, maybe two. And as far as the box not making you a better LEAVER, pull them out for the next super cat race and see how it goes.
agree...there should be two different brackets.
Posted By: Leigh
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 12:52 AM
Quote:
Where a box really is an advantage is with a car that you can not get to leave decent or always goes red.
If a driver is all over the place on the tree to start with a box won't help at all.
Finally, someone who gets it.
Posted By: johnnyrotten
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 12:52 AM
The logic is I am trying to help my local track grow or at least maintain the car counts. The sportsman and pro guys that don't install electronics will go somewhere else. I will probably install a delay box and go for it. But others don't have the interest or resources to do so. Sorry for not being selfish and only caring about myself
I don't think the 12.99 matters, last quick 32 had about a 10.2 bump. About 15 of those were dragsters, so the door car thing splits that up, but the bulk of the cars left out were no box guys. There were only 40-50 guys left with nothing to do.
Posted By: johnnyrotten
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 12:55 AM
Where a box really is an advantage is with a car that you can not get to leave decent or always goes red.
If a driver is all over the place on the tree to start with a box won't help at all.
Really??? Leaving off the flash of a top bulb doesn't help? And the double hit and bumpdown stuff is all to tune the car!!
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 12:58 AM
I hear ya brother..Just because you dont have a box does not mean they cannot run. We have a couple of guys here locally that run S/Pro with no box and do extremely well(Jesse Adams and Danny Cole come to mind). Both finished well up in the S/P points last year. Heck Jesse IIRC was top three in Pro and S/P.
With the changes you have had at SIR who knows what will happen. I think you may find as things unfold that you will begin to attract racers just out of curiousity. Being that it is now IHRA I think some will come just to see how thier shows are run after hearing about it from others. I know once I get relocated to Vegas I will be going down to Tucson to check it out.
As for the last part. EVERY driver I know who does well in Pro is not watching bulbs. They are all using a blinder only seeing the bottom bulb and leaving off of it. I do the saem thing when I run Pro in the other car. I dont know anyone who consistenly goes rounds who is watching all three. Just my
Posted By: Plumcrazyracing
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 01:12 AM
Quote:
I have a friend who has been foot brake bracket racing for almost 20 years. His average reaction time is .02. He won the heritage series in the 10.60 class a couple of years ago and he won all but one race. Typically he dials his car in to run 10.58-10.59 and lifts if he is ahead. he also runs 2 classes one with a .4 tree and the other with a .5 tree. He change front tires from small to big to get his reaction time for each class. In this old man's opinion delay boxes are for people who won't or can't practice enough to get their reactions consistant
Does this particular racer run a ford Mustang? Is his name Al Ross aka Al McGuiness? If so, he did not win the Heritage series by foot braking! He runs a transbrake in both of the classes you mention. Yes he practices weekly in his garage and is deadly consistent off the button.
Steve
Posted By: Super Scamp
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 01:22 AM
Posted By: johnnyrotten
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 01:22 AM
I have run my no box car in both, and will continue to do so. But there are dozens of local hot rod types that just run the occasional test and tune, we need those guys to be bracket racers. Rolling us all together keeps them away. PERIOD
At least until you have the sickness.
AL, come on down, I live close to the track and have plenty of room!! It's an easy trip with the bypass open now.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 02:02 AM
Quote:
.
Really??? Leaving off the flash of a top bulb doesn't help? And the double hit and bumpdown stuff is all to tune the car!!
The original question was one light, one hit. And yes, I've seen many guys screw themselves with cross-overs, bump downs and double hits.
Bottom line is that if you're a decent driver you'll do well in whatever you drive. If you suck, you suck.
If you've already convinced yourself you can't beat a box car before season even starts, take up golf.
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 03:17 AM
Quote:
Quote:
.
Really??? Leaving off the flash of a top bulb doesn't help? And the double hit and bumpdown stuff is all to tune the car!!
The original question was one light, one hit. And yes, I've seen many guys screw themselves with cross-overs, bump downs and double hits.
Bottom line is that if you're a decent driver you'll do well in whatever you drive. If you suck, you suck.
If you've already convinced yourself you can't beat a box car before season even starts, take up golf.
exactly, I don't like bump downs. don"t need them
Posted By: codfish
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 04:26 AM
Can someone explain to this electronic DUMMY, exactly and in simple terms what the terms cross-overs,cross talk, bump downs and double hits mean?
Maybe I needs me one o dem dere fancy electrical boxes
codfish
Posted By: Dart1031
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 04:40 AM
Quote:
They are all using a blinder only seeing the bottom bulb and leaving off of it. I do the saem thing when I run Pro in the other car.
Can you explain this? What are you using for a blinder and where is it? Sorry for the hijack
Posted By: 70AARcuda
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 04:52 AM
Quote:
Quote:
They are all using a blinder only seeing the bottom bulb and leaving off of it. I do the saem thing when I run Pro in the other car.
Can you explain this? What are you using for a blinder and where is it? Sorry for the hijack
http://www.biondoracing.com/detailed/crosstalk.shtml
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 04:53 AM
Quote:
Quote:
They are all using a blinder only seeing the bottom bulb and leaving off of it. I do the saem thing when I run Pro in the other car.
Can you explain this? What are you using for a blinder and where is it? Sorry for the hijack
could be as simple as a piece of tape on ther visor or windshield. just somthing to cover the top 2 lights from view. so they see the bottom bulb only.
Posted By: Dart1031
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 01:05 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
They are all using a blinder only seeing the bottom bulb and leaving off of it. I do the saem thing when I run Pro in the other car.
Can you explain this? What are you using for a blinder and where is it? Sorry for the hijack
could be as simple as a piece of tape on ther visor or windshield. just somthing to cover the top 2 lights from view. so they see the bottom bulb only.
Thanks Tony
Posted By: MegaDart
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 01:34 PM
One of our tracks had a quick 32 doorcar race. It was ok at first but the fast cars quit showing up when the bump got really slow, ie like 7.4x in the 1/8. The race was changed to a quick 16 doorcar and it is much better now with average bump spot of 5.5x
I would suggest you have a quick 16 doorcar electronics class and no electronics class.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 02:01 PM
Quote:
I would suggest you have a quick 16 doorcar electronics class and no electronics class.
That sounds reasonable, 2 separate classes. 
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 02:16 PM
Quote:
What delay box guy leaves off the bottom bulb? I thought you all left of the top bulb? It's just like a footbrake race, you don't pay attention to the other side of the tree, right?
I leave off the bottom bulb. I only use my delay box (no crossover) to keep from redlighting. And no, I don't pay attention to the other side of the tree, where I race you can only see the top bulb on the other side.
Posted By: Al_Alguire
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 04:20 PM
It's called cross talk, try it...We have a few cars with boxes that dont use cross talk either, I never understood why. They lite the top bulb of the faster car when the slower cars tree starts. Just ad the 1.00 to the box. Give it a try you may like it. You dont have to cross over to do it, incase you dont have a box with crossover capabilities. But to each his own.
On the blinder deal, just design something that works. We simply use the factory visor/extension in the car and some head movement to blind the tree.
Posted By: Guitar Jones
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 04:48 PM
Quote:
We have a few cars with boxes that dont use cross talk either, I never understood why.
I don't use it for two reasons, one I also run pro et where a transbrake and two step is allowed but no delay box. I adjust my reaction time with the two step rpm and the button. And two is because I don't have a crossover delay box and I'm, not going to be doing the math every round, too much chance for error plus it screws up my routine and I will get confused.
Top bulb racing = let go of the button on the top bulb then stand on the throttle.
Bottom bulb racing = stand on the throttle on the top bulb and let go of the button on the bottom bulb.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 05:08 PM
This is always a heated discussion. The average rt of the delay box class is almost always better than the no box and or foot brake class. That being said, there are drivers in the no box category that can and do have better averages than many of the box racers. Why? Because when you miss with a box its typically a bunch. Now that being said what you guys that have never used a box might not realize is that these things are alot more than just a plain delay anymore. Like the pro stage stuff where the throttle falls to the floor and all you have to do is worry about bumpin in consistent and let go on the first flash of anything. And then there is the bumpdown. Oh crap I missed it and start banging on the bumpdown taking .01 out on every hit of that button. Seen a racer that took .08 out bumping down. He would have been .100 on the tree and ended up .020 and won the rd. It is not a level playing field even though there are guys that can compete. I feel that I am one of those guys; but I would venture to say that the percentage of guys that can average an actual .020 or better without a box is much lower than with. Where I find the real disadvantage is the consistency of the cars. The vast majority of footbrake non delay cars are back halved cars at most that are much less consistent than the dragsters and tube chassis cars. Big disadvantage! You rarely chase these cars. Disadantage for two reasons. First chance to red light and you dont have the race out in front of you.
Bottom line is that consistently the bottom bulbers are going to be at a disadvantage. But the great thing is that on any given day we can take out the box cars. I really like the races that separate the bottom from the top until the final. I really like my odds on a one shot deal!
Of course by that time you really have your car dialed in typically.
And keep in mind that there are always exceptions to the rule but as a general statement that includes the not so good footbrake and no box guys we are at a disadvantage.
Posted By: speedy383
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 05:24 PM
I have a custom bilt blinder,i can split the last bulb to see it full,half or a sliver.The last time i raced last year (night)i was picking up just a sliver of the bulb ,10runs ,worst .032 best .012 ave. .024 no red lights..If i was running super pro on this night i woulb be lucky to win a round. I was parked with 3 10.90 regulars running super pro,there combined ave was .012 over 22 runs. I can win rounds in super pro at small events, small tracks,but at a competitive race against the regular .90 boys i would be toast without a delay box. I dont know any heavy hitters out here in no box that do not blind the tree.I also agree that a good racer can win in any class and some cant win period.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 05:33 PM
Speedy383 makes a good point. If we are talking guys at the no box nationals and or the Jegs US open. Its different than talking guys at the local track level. You have to be set on kill at those events. My brother finished 2nd in points at our local track and I can assure you that his average for the year is .025-.03 worse than mine if not more.
Posted By: camastomcat
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 05:38 PM
Quote:
I have a custom bilt blinder,i can split the last bulb to see it full,half or a sliver.The last time i raced last year (night)i was picking up just a sliver of the bulb ,10runs ,worst .032 best .012 ave. .024 no red lights..If i was running super pro on this night i woulb be lucky to win a round. I was parked with 3 10.90 regulars running super pro,there combined ave was .012 over 22 runs. I can win rounds in super pro at small events, small tracks,but at a competitive race against the regular .90 boys i would be toast without a delay box. I dont know any heavy hitters out here in no box that do not blind the tree.I also agree that a good racer can win in any class and some cant win period.
I'm a box guy and there is an advantage with a box, no doubt. Taking the "if you suck, you suck" out of the equation, the box guys are usually better because of a more pure reaction leaving off the top bulb and being able to bump down. But if you chassis isn't right in a door car or dragster, RT will move around. And it's a disadvantage when you can't leave off of the opponent's tree because of the flashing dirty light. Under those circumstances I leave on the bottom and take my chances. Also shielding the 2 top bulbs was how I ran before switching to the box.
Posted By: StripeHOG
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/24/11 05:56 PM
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They are all using a blinder only seeing the bottom bulb and leaving off of it. I do the saem thing when I run Pro in the other car.
Can you explain this? What are you using for a blinder and where is it? Sorry for the hijack
here's how I do it.... I velcro a piece of cardboard to my visor in the right lane, and my rear-view mirrow in the left
Posted By: Dart1031
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 05:06 AM
Thanks again on the blinder info guys
I just look at the bottom bulb, but never thought of using a blinder
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 06:22 AM
Quote:
Thanks again on the blinder info guys I just look at the bottom bulb, but never thought of using a blinder
You can also hold one hand up to blind the tree, works well in daylight 
Probally not so good at night, I haven't raced at night in a long time
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 06:45 AM
I typically dont give away alot of info on bracket racing but I will tell you that the blinder needs to be placed away from your face at least a foot. Tried it on the helmet visor and that dont work.
Posted By: hemiparts
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 07:00 PM
I have seen Micheal Beard ( Duct Tape sponsored Aspen) win no box, then go to the semi's in box running off the foot vs box racers.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 07:56 PM
And Michael is one to the ones capable of doing it. On any given day anyone is capable of doing it. Doing it consistently in the box class with a no box car is a different ball game and there are a select few that can do it. Plus the addition of the crosstalk crap on the tree really plays havoc with a guy that counts the bulbs down. I havent run super pro much since they instituted the crosstalk.
Posted By: HEMIFRED
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 08:19 PM
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I have seen Micheal Beard ( Duct Tape sponsored Aspen) win no box, then go to the semi's in box running off the foot vs box racers.
Walt Haas "The Somerdale Flash" a memeber here does that all the time. Both he and his son have won pro and super pro at the same event more than once
Posted By: jamesc
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 08:59 PM
didn't read all the posts and while there are some that can hold their own foot braking in super it's usually on a home track at a gamblers race. we all know guys like haas, harvey etc. can foot brake in spro and sometimes do well but it's the exception not the rule. at a big race running foot brake in the e class puts you at a decided disadvantage, you're taking a knife to a gunfight plain and simple. ask walt and those guys they will tell you the same thing. they're not gonna want to foot brake against boxes if they don't have to and you can't blame them. another thing to realize is that most of the guys that succeed foot braking in spro aren't usually going to do it on the tree they're going to do it out driving opponents down track and there's no (legal) box for that
you also have to remember these guys have been racing since before the discovery of aluminum
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 10:59 PM
I beleive I can knock off any box car at any time and have won some big money doing just that. That being said, there have only been a few instances where I have thrown up sub .025 packages the whole way and at a Tenn Tuck type event; you pretty much have to do just that to win.
Posted By: 68roadrunner
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 11:03 PM
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I beleive I can knock off any box car at any time and have won some big money doing just that. That being said, there have only been a few instances where I have thrown up sub .025 packages the whole way and at a Tenn Tuck type event; you pretty much have to do just that to win.
you better pay atention to him
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 11:25 PM
Quote:
I beleive I can knock off any box car at any time and have won some big money doing just that. That being said, there have only been a few instances where I have thrown up sub .025 packages the whole way and at a Tenn Tuck type event; you pretty much have to do just that to win.
you should bring it down here, there are lots of big buck bracket racing going on
Posted By: 66er
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 11:43 PM
I have never used a box, but have friends that do. I have watched them over the years and have had to race against them from time to time. the only way that running a box can make racing easier is if you get to use is against racers that that don't. The box gives you a huge advantage at the line, however all the other cars have the same huge advantage. Everyone can pick out one example when a foot brake guy beat all the electronic guys. Heck I've done it myself. Put that same lucky foot brake winner into the Super Pro class for a while and he will learn how to lose and lose often. If you want to put together a Q32 race and include all the racers, the only fair way is to simply use a .4 pro tree.
Posted By: 440Jim
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 11:45 PM
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I was having a discussion with our new track operator and some racers tonight and this question came up. How much of an advantage do you think someone has in a bracket race with a delay box? NO crossover/crosstalk, just a single hit on a .500 full tree.? Don't care about the throttle stop at this point. He is having a quick 32 door car race, but it's open for all. I was trying to get some support for a NO electronic quick 32, like transbrake/2step only, race. So let's hear what you think.
Just putting the original poster's question in front of new readers who haven't read it.
Like I posted, my estimate is 0.010 vs 0.030 (Box vs No-Box)
Posted By: Quicktree
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 11:46 PM
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I have never used a box, but have friends that do. I have watched them over the years and have had to race against them from time to time. the only way that running a box can make racing easier is if you get to use is against racers that that don't. The box gives you a huge advantage at the line, however all the other cars have the same huge advantage. Everyone can pick out one example when a foot brake guy beat all the electronic guys. Heck I've done it myself. Put that same lucky foot brake winner into the Super Pro class for a while and he will learn how to lose and lose often. If you want to put together a Q32 race and include all the racers, the only fair way is to simply use a .4 pro tree.
how would that be fair? most slower footbrake type cars would be at a huge disadvantage because most of them can't cut a decent light on a .4 tree
Posted By: 66er
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/25/11 11:57 PM
I assumed that all of the quick 32 cars were quick enough to leave on a .4 tree. Worse case they would have to deep stage. If there are some slower cars you could make it a .5 pro tree but the box guys may be able to use there delay.
Posted By: Leigh
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/26/11 12:50 AM
Good ole' Dick Murry and his "Green Tree" sounds like an alternative to all the slow light footers. His idea was to start the timer with the green, thus, factoring your reaction time into the dial in. It works with a box too, but ole' Dick's idea never quite caught on. lol
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/26/11 04:26 AM
Bill McCarty won all 3 classes one night last summer with a footbrake Dakota.
Bill is a bad man.
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/26/11 06:29 AM
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Bill McCarty won all 3 classes one night last summer with a footbrake Dakota.
Bill is a bad man.
Yes he most certainly did and again on any given day you can knock em off for 7 rounds. Consistently week in and week out becomes a different game and there are a percentage that can and will do it but the vast majority cannot. That being said; give me my choice of 5 no box guys against 5 box guys and I can make a pretty even race. I'll take Slick Rick against anybody on the planet!
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/26/11 06:38 AM
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Quote:
I beleive I can knock off any box car at any time and have won some big money doing just that. That being said, there have only been a few instances where I have thrown up sub .025 packages the whole way and at a Tenn Tuck type event; you pretty much have to do just that to win.
you should bring it down here, there are lots of big buck bracket racing going on
Quicktree you guys are a heck of a haul for my rig. I been as far south as South Georgia Motorsports Park a couple years in a row back when the DRR series was around. Had some luck at one of them but 12-13 hours and part of that through the mountains is a tough haul.
Posted By: Eric
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/26/11 02:17 PM
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Bill McCarty won all 3 classes one night last summer with a footbrake Dakota.
Bill is a bad man.
Yes he most certainly did and again on any given day you can knock em off for 7 rounds. Consistently week in and week out becomes a different game and there are a percentage that can and will do it but the vast majority cannot. That being said; give me my choice of 5 no box guys against 5 box guys and I can make a pretty even race. I'll take Slick Rick against anybody on the planet!
Amen to that...I cringe if I see that Camaro anywhere near me
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/27/11 06:54 AM
That display he put on at the no box nationals was simply unbeleivable! I beat him once but didnt know who he was at the time. Maybe thats the secret
Posted By: 493_DART
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/27/11 10:25 AM
Just my opinion - If you have raced for years its not some supernatural experience to nail the tree without a freakin delay box.
I believe in 2 things at the track :
1. FOCUS
2. If its your day---its your day . (relates to #1)
Posted By: POZEST
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/27/11 02:26 PM
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That display he put on at the no box nationals was simply unbeleivable! I beat him once but didnt know who he was at the time. Maybe thats the secret
I beat him 1st round Sunday morning but he was probably tired from all the winning the day before.....
Posted By: Irun5snd8th
Re: A ?? for actual bracket racers!! - 01/27/11 05:14 PM
You are probably right! Maybe he felt it right to give us little guys a shot
It was several years ago when I beat him that one time. He has gotten me the last two.
