Critique/help with this custom stroker combination

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 12:37 AM

thanks for the info man! How do i calculate rod ratio? this is all new to me so im kinda figuring things out by trying to play with numbers

Also, the only reason I went to a 6" rod was because I couldnt find a piston and 6.2 or bigger rod combo that would fit in the stock deck...or maybe i wasnt calculating properly...guess i should go back at it

If anybody has done a combo like this and would care to share what they used, please share

im gonna check out andy's thread in the meantime

I had Diamond change the pin height on my pistons
and it was only $35 to change the height for the set
when I had them made... that was just over a month
ago... mine is a 416ci but with a deck of 9.53
(I believe it is... numbers are out in the shop)

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 12:41 AM

Quote:

thanks for the info man! How do i calculate rod ratio? this is all new to me so im kinda figuring things out by trying to play with numbers

Also, the only reason I went to a 6" rod was because I couldnt find a piston and 6.2 or bigger rod combo that would fit in the stock deck...or maybe i wasnt calculating properly...guess i should go back at it

If anybody has done a combo like this and would care to share what they used, please share

im gonna check out andy's thread in the meantime

sorry to sound totally newbie, but is changing the pin height the same as changing the compression height of a piston? just want to make sure its not another term or something

If its that cheap, that should definitely open up some possibilities for pistons instead of the almost 800 dollar JE ones

What combination are you using to get 416? Im assuming thats based off the 340 main? what was the pin height before and after the custom order?

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 12:50 AM

Quote:

Quote:

thanks for the info man! How do i calculate rod ratio? this is all new to me so im kinda figuring things out by trying to play with numbers

Also, the only reason I went to a 6" rod was because I couldnt find a piston and 6.2 or bigger rod combo that would fit in the stock deck...or maybe i wasnt calculating properly...guess i should go back at it

If anybody has done a combo like this and would care to share what they used, please share

im gonna check out andy's thread in the meantime

I had Diamond change the pin height on my pistons
and it was only $35 to change the height for the set
when I had them made... that was just over a month
ago... mine is a 416ci but with a deck of 9.53
(I believe it is... numbers are out in the shop)

Yes its the compression height... its cheap so dont
think your stuck with some piston off the shelf...
I also had then open up the valve diameter on the
intake to clear my 2.08 intake valves
EDIT
Mine is a 4.070 bore with a 4" crank with chevy
6.125 rods.... based on a 340 block

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 12:56 AM

you would be way ahead of the game to get with a builder and have them spec out your motor. save you a lot of trouble in the long run

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 01:15 AM

Quote:

you would be way ahead of the game to get with a builder and have them spec out your motor. save you a lot of trouble in the long run

your probably right about saving me the trouble, but ive always been the type to try and figure things out on my own...helps me learn something and save some money in the long run (i would hope)...Im only 21, so ive got a brain ready to soak in info, and a small wallet lol

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 01:19 AM

Quote:

Quote:

you would be way ahead of the game to get with a builder and have them spec out your motor. save you a lot of trouble in the long run

your probably right about saving me the trouble, but ive always been the type to try and figure things out on my own...helps me learn something and save some money in the long run (i would hope)...Im only 21, so ive got a brain ready to soak in info, and a small wallet lol

all the more reason to get somebody who knows what they are doing. unfortunatly learning usally cost you more money.

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 01:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

you would be way ahead of the game to get with a builder and have them spec out your motor. save you a lot of trouble in the long run

your probably right about saving me the trouble, but ive always been the type to try and figure things out on my own...helps me learn something and save some money in the long run (i would hope)...Im only 21, so ive got a brain ready to soak in info, and a small wallet lol

all the more reason to get somebody who knows what they are doing. unfortunatly learning usally cost you more money.

well the way i see it, im half way there. Ive already chosen the crank, have a sure direction for the rods now, and just need to figure out pistons...Im still trying to decide if the extra 13 cubes over the 408 that id be gaining is even worth the extra cash..once im done pricing everything out ill make my decision. Is there anybody besides Performance Only who can set me up with something like this for a good price? (ive already pm'ed him)

Another question i have though is, am I really going to be pushing the limits of the stock block with this much stroke? I am only going with a 4.030" bore size, so im hoping ill be okay..I know the longer stroke might put more stress on the walls, but i cant see this combo making more than 515hp, 550tq at absolute most with the parts im selecting

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 01:34 AM

the cubes will help more if you have the heads to match. if not it probably wont make much difference. as far as the blocks go it depends on what your goal is. factory sb are pretty strong imo. there are lots of good builders on here. Dan is doing the machine work on my stroker now.

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 01:48 AM

Quote:

the cubes will help more if you have the heads to match. if not it probably wont make much difference. as far as the blocks go it depends on what your goal is. factory sb are pretty strong imo. there are lots of good builders on here. Dan is doing the machine work on my stroker now.

who are some other builders on here that I can get in touch with for this? I know Brian at IMM is one, Competition Wedge another, but who else is there?

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 01:51 AM

the list is endless, beat machine, Dwayne Porter(fast68plynouth),BG racing I could go n for a while

good luck

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 03:02 AM

Quote:

the list is endless, beat machine, Dwayne Porter(fast68plynouth),BG racing I could go n for a while good luck

LOL ill look into it then...you have a pm by the way!

anybody else done something similar to this and care to share any info/ words of wisdom. I checked out Andy's article, but there is no piston info really, and the motor isnt done anyways, so its kinda hard to get a rough hp per dollar figure without some dyno numbers

Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 07:56 AM

I keep seeing two things that don't go together: custom stroker and cheap. First off, I'd build a 408" 360 based motor. Spend the extra money on better cylinder heads. The few extra inches won't make up for better flowing heads. To put it in perspective, the shop I used to work at, we built a .030" 360 with mildly ported Edelbrock magnum heads. The cam was a hydraulic roller and this engine put out 497 hp. Never saw over 6200 rpm either. Now if it had had 400 inches and some real heads, well 600 shouldn't have been a problem. Even a good single plane might have put the peak number over 500 with a bit of a torque sacrifice. Obviously a cam to match, solid roller being my preference..

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 11:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

the cubes will help more if you have the heads to match. if not it probably wont make much difference. as far as the blocks go it depends on what your goal is. factory sb are pretty strong imo. there are lots of good builders on here. Dan is doing the machine work on my stroker now.

who are some other builders on here that I can get in touch with for this? I know Brian at IMM is one, Competition Wedge another, but who else is there?

I have to be honest with you, the 2 builders you have mentioned are more than capeable of steering you in the right direction. it seems you are searching for someone who will tell you what you want to hear. you have already purchased a kit that may or may not be what you need. at your age and experience level you will be better off trusting one of these guys. they have plenty of experience. not saying it's bad to want to do it yourself but it will save you money and grief. as far as cost goes I bet there will be little differnce between all of them on a similar build.

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 11:55 AM

I have to add, I admire your ambition and determination. but that sometimes leads you down the wrong path. it's good to see some of our youth interested in old muscle. so don't get your feathers ruffled. just let everything sink in and build the best you can afford. believe me you will learn as you go.

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 03:02 PM

Hey guys,

I appreciate the advice, really....I know that going with the bigger inches my heads would possibly be strained (im going with Brians RHS offerring) for now, but atleast I know in the future if i upgrade the heads ive got the cubes to help out, combining to make some awesome power.

I havent purchased anything yet. Ive refunded my cast kit that I ordered before, and before I order anything else im just trying to figure out how much extra im looking at. Ive sent some builders a few pm's, so ill wait to see what they say. Like i said, this is more for my curiosities sake...im learning things right now that I never knew or even thought about before, and I like that. If I or a builder can come up with one of these big stroke combos that fits my budget, then ill swing for it...If not, im going to go with the trusty 408 kit lol...still more than enough cubes for a young sucker like me

Posted By: tubtar

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 04:36 PM

I got 500.00 says your right foot is heavier than your wallet.

I was the same way at your age , and I still consider it a good thing.
There is a wealth of great advice here........something that wasn't readily available in my day. ( here we go .......old guy stories

)
After you thank them , thank whoever thought up this crazy box full of chips and wires.
But even a geezer like me can learn something and appreciate the amount of wisdom being thrown at us for free.
You still have a ton of options and all of them make sense on many levels.
The hard part is opening the wallet and saying " I'll take it " because now you are locked on to a given path.
And here is where the benefit of someone's experience will really pay off.
Find a builder you are comfortable with and trust them.

Posted By: moper

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 05:01 PM

Matt,
There are a few reasons to not bother going beyond 4". The return on investment for the expense of custom parts and shortening service life just don't make sense to me. I decided to ask a few questions of guys I consider knowledgable and the biggest seems to be the pistons with indeterminate service life as a close second. Noise will also be a factor using a piston that short in a street car. That can be addressed with offsetting the pin but you'll need to work with the piston manufacturer to get something that addresses the issues as best as could be.
IMO - Build a 4" arm, forged crank setup, with reasonable heads, and worry about "bigger" and "more" when you've already maxxed what the 4" engine can do for you. If bigger wasn't better we'd all have 318s with 360 pie tins. But there comes a time when return on investment ends up making bigger less better.

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 05:47 PM

I'd stick with the 4" arm and build a 408. Between the added stroke and 4 speed you're gonna be putting a lot of stress on the block.

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 06:48 PM

I like the 4" 6.123 rod combo but I don't think I'd hesitate to run the 4.125 with the 6.2 rod and the SBC journals with a set of Brian's RHS heads. spread the lobe centers out a bit (at least 110) and try to shift some of the massive torque upstairs which will also help your power curve above the peak, the curve will be more linear (less abrupt peaky) as well which should be easier on the block overall with the heads you are planning. I would lean toward a 340 victor with some plenum work, again you don't want or need a ton of help in the upper bottom range once you give it some throttle, a good single plane will actually help make the combo more tractible/predictable off idle and in rainy conditions, especially in a nose heavy 4 speed car. A Hydraulic in the 242I/248E range or a solid in the 250I/256E range should be about right for the best balance for broad flat torque and strong top end power with an 850'ish double pumper. ~18-22 initial with another ~12-14 in the distributor with a relatively slow centrifugal advance will make it a very good steet performer without it blowing off the tires around every corner like a too quick advance will do....unless you're running fat and very sticky meats.

Posted By: BPE

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 07:58 PM

Quote:

I like the 4" 6.123 rod combo but I don't think I'd hesitate to run the 4.125 with the 6.2 rod and the SBC journals with a set of Brian's RHS heads. spread the lobe centers out a bit (at least 110) and try to shift some of the massive torque upstairs which will also help your power curve above the peak, the curve will be more linear (less abrupt peaky) as well which should be easier on the block overall with the heads you are planning. I would lean toward a 340 victor with some plenum work, again you don't want or need a ton of help in the upper bottom range once you give it some throttle, a good single plane will actually help make the combo more tractible/predictable off idle and in rainy conditions, especially in a nose heavy 4 speed car. A Hydraulic in the 242I/248E range or a solid in the 250I/256E range should be about right for the best balance for broad flat torque and strong top end power with an 850'ish double pumper. ~18-22 initial with another ~12-14 in the distributor with a relatively slow centrifugal advance will make it a very good steet performer without it blowing off the tires around every corner like a too quick advance will do....unless you're running fat and very sticky meats.

Well Said!

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 09:34 PM

Rod,

Thanks buddy.

I find it's easy to give good advice when you've ACTUALLY DONE IT SUCCESSFULLY before

Seems some forums/threads are so full of BS these days that you can't open the page without wearing Hip Waders anymore

Moparts is a lot better than most of them though

I think the people who know all pretty much know eachother by now

and we just ignore the posers.
I look who posted before I even bother to read anymore (there's some real good ones in here

Posted By: emarine01

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/18/11 09:52 PM

Good post guys

sound advice

Posted By: RyanJ

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/19/11 12:14 AM

I've built 6 or 7 4.125" crank SB's...

Only real reason to go over 4" stroke is to add CID/Torque, (generally it's going to add around 1.3 TQ for every inch over whatever you'd have with the shorter stroke crank), & to lower the intended powerband. Figure usually around 200-300 RPM difference between a 4" & a 4.125" all other things being same.

For a basic street/strip type deal.... availability of a huge selection of off shelf pistons is why most would stick with 4" stuff.

But if for some reason you are building a combo that you know you're gonna do a custom piston in anyhow... then sometimes we look toward the bigger stroke stuff.

I usually use a 6.20" Callies Comp Star rod on them, although I did do a couple 6" ones before where I turned counterweights down.

Rod bolt clearance to off shelf internal oil pickup tubes can get real tight... other than that... it's just a rotating assembly.

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/19/11 12:44 AM

Hey everybody, thank you for the opinions and words of wisdom

I have spoken with a couple of builders on here, as well as a few different piston manufacturers, and it looks like going to the 4.125" arm is just out of my price range. Only other company ive found that has a kit for it besides K1 or something from Hughes is Ohio Crank...not sure the quality of their stuff, but the price is right
http://ohiocrank.com/mopar_rotate.html

Looks like im more than likely going to be sticking with the 4" arm stuff since i havent heard anybody on here mention the Ohio Crank stuff and whether or not it worked well for them

408 cubes is already going to be a handful for me lol

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/19/11 01:02 AM

The forged Ohio's are pretty stout, (but check all non-premium cranks first by a competent machinist) I have one in my 414 (got as a crank/rods/block package deal I couldn't pass up) but I'd seriously consider getting a crank from one of the moparts members/sponsors on here. We all help eachother out as much as we can (I've bought parts and services from 2 in this very thread

), a lot of these guys I've known for years...even the ones I 'debate'

with from time to time, I think we still respect eachother's opinions and we're all still 'buds'.

A lot of these guys volunteer VAST amounts of knowledge and experience and deliver the hard core content to this site, give 'em a shot

Posted By: BobsProFab

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/19/11 02:26 AM

Quote:

you would be way ahead of the game to get with a builder and have them spec out your motor. save you a lot of trouble in the long run

i agree with Tony, im starting to gather parts for my budget

R5 421" and helps to get good advice from guys that has been there and done it.

Bob

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/19/11 02:48 AM

Well Ive talked with a few different builders on here, and like i said im probably going to go 408..I just brought up the Ohio kit since i found it interesting that there was another offerring out there for a decent price, and ive heard mixed things about that company in general.

As much as the builders on here are very helpful, I have to go with what i can afford (within reason...obviously im not going to buy junk). That being said, I try to support those who support us whenever i can when i buy parts, but its a little bit harder when im north of the border from all you guys lol (shipping is the big killer, especially with heavier parts coming from the south or west coast)

Im just trying to buy parts that are going to be half decent without costing me a kidney so that when i bring em to my machine shop i dont have to spend hundreds of dollars fixing everything

Posted By: DJVCuda

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/19/11 02:58 AM

Call Rod Bloomer - he has a shelf piston for the 4.125" crank and it is VERY REASONABLE!

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/19/11 05:15 AM

Quote:

(I've bought parts and services from 2 in this very thread ), a lot of these guys I've known for years...even the ones I 'debate' with from time to time, I think we still respect eachother's opinions and we're all still 'buds'.

A lot of these guys volunteer VAST amounts of knowledge and experience and deliver the hard core content to this site, give 'em a shot

hey, i resemble that remark.

sometimes a lively debate nets some great information to share and that's usually a good thing.

Posted By: mshred

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/20/11 11:54 PM

Quote:

Matt,
There are a few reasons to not bother going beyond 4". The return on investment for the expense of custom parts and shortening service life just don't make sense to me. I decided to ask a few questions of guys I consider knowledgable and the biggest seems to be the pistons with indeterminate service life as a close second. Noise will also be a factor using a piston that short in a street car. That can be addressed with offsetting the pin but you'll need to work with the piston manufacturer to get something that addresses the issues as best as could be.
IMO - Build a 4" arm, forged crank setup, with reasonable heads, and worry about "bigger" and "more" when you've already maxxed what the 4" engine can do for you. If bigger wasn't better we'd all have 318s with 360 pie tins. But there comes a time when return on investment ends up making bigger less better.

Moper, im concered with the service life you are talking about.. why is it so? Also, the piston noise you are referring to- is it more when its cold upon startup, or is it constant? I can live with noise, as long as its not damaging anything

Another question I have for you guys is, with a stock block and .030" overbore, do I have anything to worry about in terms of wall thickness or block strength? I know HP/TQ is the killer, just wondering if this different rod/stroke/piston combo is detrimental as well

Ive spoken with Rod twice now and I must say i really do trust that this stuff will work good. Since he will be offerring custom pistons, im just trying to figure out if i will be okay with 7/16 cap screw I beams or if I should step up to the H beam stuff

Posted By: kielbasa

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/21/11 12:22 AM

if you're worried about cylinder wall thickness, get them sonic checked....
block strength, I had the same concerns (i'm using a stock 360 block)- I just figured I'd limit hp limit to something reasonable...
with BPE's crank and pistons, all I have buy extra will be rods (6.2 Compstars) to have a rotating assembly that seems to be a pretty good bargain

Posted By: Streetwize

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/21/11 12:43 AM

mshred,

I respect and appreciate you at a young age asking all of these well-thought out questions.

A very wise engine builder named Joe Sherman once said "$1 in the heads is worth $3 in the shortblock." I've found this to be more true than you know, don't sweat it there's plenty of 408-416's out there that crush big blocks all day long.

My

build the best nicest forged 408 you can afford to build and enjoy it! Take what you learn from the experience of building it and look forward to rolling that knowledge in to the next one, pretty much what I've been doing for 30-odd years now

Posted By: Performance Only

Re: Critique/help with this custom stroker combination - 01/21/11 03:21 AM

Quote:

mshred,

I respect and appreciate you at a young age asking all of these well-thought out questions.

A very wise engine builder named Joe Sherman once said "$1 in the heads is worth $3 in the shortblock." I've found this to be more true than you know, don't sweat it there's plenty of 408-416's out there that crush big blocks all day long.

My build the best nicest forged 408 you can afford to build and enjoy it! Take what you learn from the experience of building it and look forward to rolling that knowledge in to the next one, pretty much what I've been doing for 30-odd years now

i agree, you have neither the cylinder head nor the block you need to take advantage of the extra cubes. in other words, what's the point?
no need to get into custom pistons for a combo that is limited by the block and heads anyway.
we've done plenty of both size engines as well as the 4.25 strokers, so we do have some first hand knowledge about what works best for a given overall combination. the 408/416 IMO is still one of the best street/strip combo's out there.
sonic check your block. i have a std. bore 340 block that needs to sleeves just to go .030 over. don't take anything for granted.

Critique/help with this custom stroker combination