Quote:
by the time you get it balanced and finished you will have spent enough for a forged crank..
Quote:yea but most take less to balance from what I understand (heavy metal)Quote:
by the time you get it balanced and finished you will have spent enough for a forged crank..
Dont you have to have the forged crank finished and balanced as well...
Quote:Quote:yea but most take less to balance from what I understand (heavy metal)Quote:
by the time you get it balanced and finished you will have spent enough for a forged crank..
Dont you have to have the forged crank finished and balanced as well...
The balance job was $200 
Quote:
Yes you balance regardless of the material, but depending on the rest of the rotating assembly Forged cranks generally require less if any mallory slugs to balance. Cast cranks need the added mallory to balance. Each slug is like $50 and a crank can use multiple. Add in some dollars for labor and quickly your budget cast crank costs nearly the same as a forged piece but is still inferior strength wise.
The biggest thing that scares me about your build is the 4 speed. A Cast crank will live at 500 horsepower, but its not going to like you dumping the clutch and so on. A little piece of mind is worth a couple extra bucks. Thats my opinion.
Quote:
by the time you get it balanced and finished you will have spent enough for a forged crank..
Quote:Quote:
by the time you get it balanced and finished you will have spent enough for a forged crank..
EXACTLY........
Few years back i broke a cast 4 inch stroker crank. I had upgraded my combo from high 10's to 10.30's and it broke after about 50 passes, and ruined the rest of my season. I learned the hard way to do it right the first time.
Like i love saying, spend the extra 500 bucks and get the good piece the first time. In the whole scheme of building a motor, 500 bucks is just a small fraction of the total build, so why scrimp, just wait till you can do it right, then you wont ever have to wonder
but some have to learn the hard way.
Quote:
Yes you balance regardless of the material, but depending on the rest of the rotating assembly Forged cranks generally require less if any mallory slugs to balance. Cast cranks need the added mallory to balance. Each slug is like $50 and a crank can use multiple. Add in some dollars for labor and quickly your budget cast crank costs nearly the same as a forged piece but is still inferior strength wise.
The biggest thing that scares me about your build is the 4 speed. A Cast crank will live at 500 horsepower, but its not going to like you dumping the clutch and so on. A little piece of mind is worth a couple extra bucks. Thats my opinion.
Quote:I would be worried with the 4 speed
hey guys,
the kit i bought is from coast high performance and it cost 1300 for probe forged pistons, rings, bearins, scat I beams, and the 9000 cast crank including internal balancing at no extra charge. The only reason im worried is because i saw someone on another forum snap one in two peices with a 4 speed...but, there are alot of guys with cast cranks it seems with good luck...seems like there is a good and bad...Im going to call coast high and see how much it will be to upgrade, but if its outta my range, im gonna cross my fingers and go for it with the cast
i was hoping to get real world experience with the cast and 4 speeds, but with the rarity of 4 speed racers, its kinda hard to.
thanks, and if anyone else wants to share i appreciate any and all input
nad just a note, for $2400 you could have had a forged stroker kit.
Quote:Quote:I would be worried with the 4 speed
hey guys,
the kit i bought is from coast high performance and it cost 1300 for probe forged pistons, rings, bearins, scat I beams, and the 9000 cast crank including internal balancing at no extra charge. The only reason im worried is because i saw someone on another forum snap one in two peices with a 4 speed...but, there are alot of guys with cast cranks it seems with good luck...seems like there is a good and bad...Im going to call coast high and see how much it will be to upgrade, but if its outta my range, im gonna cross my fingers and go for it with the cast
i was hoping to get real world experience with the cast and 4 speeds, but with the rarity of 4 speed racers, its kinda hard to.
thanks, and if anyone else wants to share i appreciate any and all input
Quote:
I'd also put 500 hp at the limit, my 511 horse 427" small block Cobra has a cast crank with a 5 speed, but in a light car it's almost impossible to load the motor up very hard on the street.
The heavier the car the more resistence/load you have countering the inherent twisting motion of the crank, if you get into a detonation situation under full-hook/high load and bad things can happen. If you're going to run on street tires I think 500 is safe in an A body, but if you're running Drag Radials or better and really plan on thrashing it around invest in a little extra piece of mind.
As said by the time you balance a cast crank you don't wind up saving much over a forging
Quote:I trust the stock 360 crank more than I would the others. I do push mine pretty hard and know one day what could happen. now I don't know who made the early mopar cranks but they are pretty strong for what they are.Quote:
I'd also put 500 hp at the limit, my 511 horse 427" small block Cobra has a cast crank with a 5 speed, but in a light car it's almost impossible to load the motor up very hard on the street.
The heavier the car the more resistence/load you have countering the inherent twisting motion of the crank, if you get into a detonation situation under full-hook/high load and bad things can happen. If you're going to run on street tires I think 500 is safe in an A body, but if you're running Drag Radials or better and really plan on thrashing it around invest in a little extra piece of mind.
As said by the time you balance a cast crank you don't wind up saving much over a forging
the balance job is free on the cast crank, im not paying for the internal balance
one question i have also is, in strength, would the stock cast crank be stronger than the scat? we all know that there are many PUSHING stock cast cranks hard in 360's, im wondering if the scat is more fragile
Quote:Quote:I trust the stock 360 crank more than I would the others. I do push mine pretty hard and know one day what could happen. now I don't know who made the early mopar cranks but they are pretty strong for what they are.Quote:
I'd also put 500 hp at the limit, my 511 horse 427" small block Cobra has a cast crank with a 5 speed, but in a light car it's almost impossible to load the motor up very hard on the street.
The heavier the car the more resistence/load you have countering the inherent twisting motion of the crank, if you get into a detonation situation under full-hook/high load and bad things can happen. If you're going to run on street tires I think 500 is safe in an A body, but if you're running Drag Radials or better and really plan on thrashing it around invest in a little extra piece of mind.
As said by the time you balance a cast crank you don't wind up saving much over a forging
the balance job is free on the cast crank, im not paying for the internal balance
one question i have also is, in strength, would the stock cast crank be stronger than the scat? we all know that there are many PUSHING stock cast cranks hard in 360's, im wondering if the scat is more fragile
Quote:no bone stock cranks made in the 70s, I doubt they were made by scatQuote:Quote:I trust the stock 360 crank more than I would the others. I do push mine pretty hard and know one day what could happen. now I don't know who made the early mopar cranks but they are pretty strong for what they are.Quote:
I'd also put 500 hp at the limit, my 511 horse 427" small block Cobra has a cast crank with a 5 speed, but in a light car it's almost impossible to load the motor up very hard on the street.
The heavier the car the more resistence/load you have countering the inherent twisting motion of the crank, if you get into a detonation situation under full-hook/high load and bad things can happen. If you're going to run on street tires I think 500 is safe in an A body, but if you're running Drag Radials or better and really plan on thrashing it around invest in a little extra piece of mind.
As said by the time you balance a cast crank you don't wind up saving much over a forging
the balance job is free on the cast crank, im not paying for the internal balance
one question i have also is, in strength, would the stock cast crank be stronger than the scat? we all know that there are many PUSHING stock cast cranks hard in 360's, im wondering if the scat is more fragile
when you say made the early mopar cranks, im assuming a not stock in the block one, but a mopar performance crank? if so, I have seen many say scat made the cranks, but im not 100% sure...I know scat makes the cast cranks in the MP crate engines
I think the chinese were still farming rice back then.
Quote:Quote:no bone stock cranks made in the 70s, I doubt they were made by scatQuote:Quote:I trust the stock 360 crank more than I would the others. I do push mine pretty hard and know one day what could happen. now I don't know who made the early mopar cranks but they are pretty strong for what they are.Quote:
I'd also put 500 hp at the limit, my 511 horse 427" small block Cobra has a cast crank with a 5 speed, but in a light car it's almost impossible to load the motor up very hard on the street.
The heavier the car the more resistence/load you have countering the inherent twisting motion of the crank, if you get into a detonation situation under full-hook/high load and bad things can happen. If you're going to run on street tires I think 500 is safe in an A body, but if you're running Drag Radials or better and really plan on thrashing it around invest in a little extra piece of mind.
As said by the time you balance a cast crank you don't wind up saving much over a forging
the balance job is free on the cast crank, im not paying for the internal balance
one question i have also is, in strength, would the stock cast crank be stronger than the scat? we all know that there are many PUSHING stock cast cranks hard in 360's, im wondering if the scat is more fragile
when you say made the early mopar cranks, im assuming a not stock in the block one, but a mopar performance crank? if so, I have seen many say scat made the cranks, but im not 100% sure...I know scat makes the cast cranks in the MP crate engines
running 1040s in my challenger.
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The big question is this..........would you rather save until you have another 1,000.00 or see 2,700.00 laying on the asphalt in a puddle of oil under your car ?
Factor in block machining and hope and pray it doesn't spank a head and wreck something upstairs , you will have the potential to ruin a 4,000.00 bill in no time.
That is if it is kind and scatters in the first 30 feet of your pass.
Once you're out a couple hundred feet or better , you have a bit of momentum working against you too............and you bring the other lane into play too.
Scat recommends a lot of things.........and I can't think of a single car running a dry sump or blower that uses a cast crank.
But I'll bet they are out there.
As mentioned in other posts , a REALISTIC look at what you are going to be doing with it is first.
To be fast , you need to be safe.
And smart doesn't hurt either.........actually makes the first two a lot easier.
And that gem of wisdom is coming from a real dummy , so take it for what it's worth.
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The SCAT crank will take more HP than the stock 360 cast crank. The stock crank has oil grooves(stress risers) all the way around the rod journals. The minimum diameter is significantly smaller on the stock crank than the radiused journal on the SCAT cast crank so there is just plain more meat there and NO stress riser. SCAT also uses better metal, cast steel VS cast iron so the SCAT is much stronger than the factory 360 crank. Also since the SCAT crank is a 4 inch stroke you will end up with a much lighter piston even if the motors make the SAME HP and it will turn fewer RPM at the same HP so ther is much less load on the crank. Balancing is not more expensive if you externally balance it and beleive it or not there are still a lot of motors out there that last a long time that are externally balanced.
If you are useing a SCAT I beam and reasonably light pistons you will be fine at 500 hp. The stock cranks worked fine for years with heavy stock rods and heavy TRW style pistons and the SCAT crank is significantly stronger. If you notice the guys in this thread (and most other threads) that have experianced cast crank failure were doing stuff they were not supposed to do like breaking trannys and running them in powerful dirt track cars and nitrous...
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If you have the kit, use it and do not worry about it. You are talking street car with 4 speed, you will be ok. My car is a drag car with 33 inches slick and 9 second time slips, trans brake. I will use the scat crank in a street aplication all day long and not worry about it.
Note: the trans brake is worse than 4 speed. Like dave says because of the radius, the scatt scrank is stronger than any factory 360
Quote:you are on the right track, it's easy to say it will be fine when it's not your money. if it was a street car only I would use it. but I bet you want to go to the track with it.Quote:
If you have the kit, use it and do not worry about it. You are talking street car with 4 speed, you will be ok. My car is a drag car with 33 inches slick and 9 second time slips, trans brake. I will use the scat crank in a street aplication all day long and not worry about it.
Note: the trans brake is worse than 4 speed. Like dave says because of the radius, the scatt scrank is stronger than any factory 360
Plans are to only up the power from here on out though, and id rather have a rotating assembly that i wont have to worry about (block will be next obviously)...Let's put it this way, im convinced to going forged now, lets not reverse that lol
Quote:Quote:you are on the right track, it's easy to say it will be fine when it's not your money. if it was a street car only I would use it. but I bet you want to go to the track with it.Quote:
If you have the kit, use it and do not worry about it. You are talking street car with 4 speed, you will be ok. My car is a drag car with 33 inches slick and 9 second time slips, trans brake. I will use the scat crank in a street aplication all day long and not worry about it.
Note: the trans brake is worse than 4 speed. Like dave says because of the radius, the scatt scrank is stronger than any factory 360
Plans are to only up the power from here on out though, and id rather have a rotating assembly that i wont have to worry about (block will be next obviously)...Let's put it this way, im convinced to going forged now, lets not reverse that lol
Quote:Quote:you are on the right track, it's easy to say it will be fine when it's not your money. if it was a street car only I would use it. but I bet you want to go to the track with it.Quote:
If you have the kit, use it and do not worry about it. You are talking street car with 4 speed, you will be ok. My car is a drag car with 33 inches slick and 9 second time slips, trans brake. I will use the scat crank in a street aplication all day long and not worry about it.
Note: the trans brake is worse than 4 speed. Like dave says because of the radius, the scatt scrank is stronger than any factory 360
Plans are to only up the power from here on out though, and id rather have a rotating assembly that i wont have to worry about (block will be next obviously)...Let's put it this way, im convinced to going forged now, lets not reverse that lol
if your plans include upgading the power, put the good stuff in the shortblock 
I have went 11teens with mine no problems but If I could turn back time I would have done a forged kit.
Quote:I think much over 550hp. they are time bombs it's been proven several times right here on this board. and I'll keep my factory 360 crank over the chinese pieces any day.
Don't get me wrong, if you are thinking about ever wanting to go faster than you should get the forged crank, always build a solid foundation first, than upgrade the top end later. I just wanted to say the cast cranks are not time bombs and are stronger than stock cast witch were better than most manufactures cast cranks.
Quote:true but better than the cast. and some are better than others.
the forged is olso chinese
Quote:
the forged is olso chinese
Quote:Quote:I think much over 550hp. they are time bombs it's been proven several times right here on this board. and I'll keep my factory 360 crank over the chinese pieces any day.
Don't get me wrong, if you are thinking about ever wanting to go faster than you should get the forged crank, always build a solid foundation first, than upgrade the top end later. I just wanted to say the cast cranks are not time bombs and are stronger than stock cast witch were better than most manufactures cast cranks.
Quote:
the forged is olso chinese
Quote:Quote:
the forged is olso chinese
All of them ????
Callies is domestic and from everything I read , will be far closer to right as shipped.
B.R.C. ?
Bryant ?
I've only covered the first three letters of the alphabet and you have three nice choices.
It does pay to shop around and do some homework.........especially when buying big ticket items.
Quote:check with Dan on a K1 not much more than the rest and probably the best of the chinese crap.Quote:Quote:
the forged is olso chinese
All of them ????
Callies is domestic and from everything I read , will be far closer to right as shipped.
B.R.C. ?
Bryant ?
I've only covered the first three letters of the alphabet and you have three nice choices.
It does pay to shop around and do some homework.........especially when buying big ticket items.
I have no problem going up to the scat forged...just because its chinese doesnt mean jack to me...they check out good the way they are shipped from the research I am doing, and they are significantly cheaper than a comparable american made offerring...in fact, i thought callies forges overseas as well? dont quote me, i thought i read that somewhere though
Quote:Quote:check with Dan on a K1 not much more than the rest and probably the best of the chinese crap.Quote:Quote:
the forged is olso chinese
All of them ????
Callies is domestic and from everything I read , will be far closer to right as shipped.
B.R.C. ?
Bryant ?
I've only covered the first three letters of the alphabet and you have three nice choices.
It does pay to shop around and do some homework.........especially when buying big ticket items.
I have no problem going up to the scat forged...just because its chinese doesnt mean jack to me...they check out good the way they are shipped from the research I am doing, and they are significantly cheaper than a comparable american made offerring...in fact, i thought callies forges overseas as well? dont quote me, i thought i read that somewhere though
Quote:Quote:check with Dan on a K1 not much more than the rest and probably the best of the chinese crap.Quote:Quote:
the forged is olso chinese
All of them ????
Callies is domestic and from everything I read , will be far closer to right as shipped.
B.R.C. ?
Bryant ?
I've only covered the first three letters of the alphabet and you have three nice choices.
It does pay to shop around and do some homework.........especially when buying big ticket items.
I have no problem going up to the scat forged...just because its chinese doesnt mean jack to me...they check out good the way they are shipped from the research I am doing, and they are significantly cheaper than a comparable american made offerring...in fact, i thought callies forges overseas as well? dont quote me, i thought i read that somewhere though
Quote:Dram, performance only on the boardQuote:Quote:check with Dan on a K1 not much more than the rest and probably the best of the chinese crap.Quote:Quote:
the forged is olso chinese
All of them ????
Callies is domestic and from everything I read , will be far closer to right as shipped.
B.R.C. ?
Bryant ?
I've only covered the first three letters of the alphabet and you have three nice choices.
It does pay to shop around and do some homework.........especially when buying big ticket items.
I have no problem going up to the scat forged...just because its chinese doesnt mean jack to me...they check out good the way they are shipped from the research I am doing, and they are significantly cheaper than a comparable american made offerring...in fact, i thought callies forges overseas as well? dont quote me, i thought i read that somewhere though
dan?
I have a 4" cast steel scat crank that's been sittin in the shop for a few years, every time I think about another build I think about using it but end up forkin out for a forged unit, some of the Chevy 400 block guys swear by these cast steel stroker cranks even @ 600+ hp turning 7k, I don't know if they are just lucky or crazy but I have not seen one fail, These engines are used for mud racing so the lack of traction may be a factor
Quote:better have a good block
Gonna call BPE tommorow and see if they offer a kit based on their cranks, possibly one of the 4.125 or 4.250 cranks with 360 mains
Quote:Quote:
by the time you get it balanced and finished you will have spent enough for a forged crank..
EXACTLY........
Few years back i broke a cast 4 inch stroker crank. I had upgraded my combo from high 10's to 10.30's and it broke after about 50 passes, and ruined the rest of my season. I learned the hard way to do it right the first time.
Like i love saying, spend the extra 500 bucks and get the good piece the first time. In the whole scheme of building a motor, 500 bucks is just a small fraction of the total build, so why scrimp, just wait till you can do it right, then you wont ever have to wonder
Quote:
Don't get me wrong, if you are thinking about ever wanting to go faster than you should get the forged crank, always build a solid foundation first, than upgrade the top end later. I just wanted to say the cast cranks are not time bombs and are stronger than stock cast witch were better than most manufactures cast cranks.
Quote:Quote:Quote:
by the time you get it balanced and finished you will have spent enough for a forged crank..
EXACTLY........
Few years back i broke a cast 4 inch stroker crank. I had upgraded my combo from high 10's to 10.30's and it broke after about 50 passes, and ruined the rest of my season. I learned the hard way to do it right the first time.
Like i love saying, spend the extra 500 bucks and get the good piece the first time. In the whole scheme of building a motor, 500 bucks is just a small fraction of the total build, so why scrimp, just wait till you can do it right, then you wont ever have to wonder
to the cast crank's credit, B422W5, how many years did you run the cast crank, externally balanced in your 3400lb duster running 10.75-10.80? IIRC yours was a MP crank, which was made by SCAT...and I'd imagine your drag strip launching with slicks and a high stall converter would be as brutal, if not more so, than street driving a 4 speed with street tires.
as far as factory cast vs. SCAT 4" cast, hotroddave makes some good points, although the factory cast cranks are ductile (nodular) iron, so the continuous phase of the material is steel, not graphite, like it is in grey cast iron. the lack of filleted radii is offset by the fact it has more journal overlap due to the shorter stroke.
if you have no plans for further upgrades, I'd just run the cast crank, or even if you do have plans for further upgrades, it might be more cost effective to build a whole new motor in the future, because soon you're going to get close to the limits of the factory block....