Moparts
Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement
Posted By: WayneM
Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/09/11 02:53 PM
Happy New Year to all in Moparts land!
>>>> Getting on soap box <<<<
As it's been since E-town's permanant racing numbers began, I have been getting the annual renewal form soon after the new year. It's a happy reminder that spring is coming. I haven't noticed in the past, and I don't think there was, but now there's a release agreement as part of the points/ permanant number renewal form. I guess it's similar to what you glanced at and signed many times when entering the pits- what I call "the clipboard".
I know I never had time to really digest the agreement on the clipboard, so I just glanced at it and signed it and knew it waived all sorts of liability and reminded you that racing is dangerous, which we all know.
Now that there's an agreement here that I can read, I did notice some terms that I hadn't noticed, and wondered if any other racers had noticed?
The main item that's disturbing is the repeated mention of "NEGLIGENT". The agreement wants me to agree to negligence, even if it results in death. In #5 and 6, the agreement asks for a release in the event of "NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS" and all acts of negligence.
This term is used way too many times, and I feel uncomfortable agreeing to it.
Is E-town looking to scale back ambulance service? has there been any changes in weekly activities? Are they just covering their butts in the wake of the unfortunate occurances that has taken place there?
I just wanted to see if anyone else has seen this form, and how others feel about such an agreement?
I'm probably just going to sign it, but I will feel differently the relationship that exists with the track. Maybe one will have to do a pre race check to see what personnel are there in regards to safety. I will post a copy of the agreement as soon as I can get my scanner up.
>>>> Off soap box <<<<
Posted By: SSDAcuda
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/09/11 03:39 PM
liability... When an accident happens, nobody wants to be liable. And englishtown has had their share the last few years!
Insurance rates probably went up... not good for the sport
Posted By: jcc
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 12:16 AM
I am not sure if in a court of law you can sign away "negilence".
Everyone, except a good simaritin(sp??), and even they have to exhibit non carelessness, is expected not to be negilent. I understand their pre-emptive concern, but I suspect it is just to reduce anyone getting ideas they won the lottery if the safety crew uses the wrong bandaid. 1/2 cent
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 12:34 AM
Extreme negligence is the one you don't want to sign
Posted By: dOc …
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 12:37 AM
Quote:
I am not sure if in a court of law you can sign away "negilence".
SOUNDS LIKE they have a bunch of HACKS running that track ... 
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 01:37 AM
So does this mean you can't park a crane in the shutdown area and then get sued for it?
Posted By: CMcAllister
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 02:07 AM
I would expect it to be a standard form, supplied by the insurance company, and is the same as the one you sign entering the pits or competing at any racetrack insured by the same company.
Posted By: rickstershemi
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 02:16 AM
Quote:
I am not sure if in a court of law you can sign away "negilence".
Yes you most certainly can 
Rickster
Posted By: DusterDave
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 04:43 AM
Quote:
So does this mean you can't park a crane in the shutdown area and then get sued for it?
I remember that scene. Terrible...
Posted By: dOc …
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 05:04 AM
Quote:
I would expect it to be a standard form, supplied by the insurance company, and is the same as the one you sign entering the pits or competing at any racetrack insured by the same company.
Oh Yeah ... the ones you sign BEFORE you race JUST entering the track that says that you have inspected the track surface and all other parts of the facilities.
Posted By: polyspheric
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 06:32 AM
1. You can't race unless you sign it, so it's not a choice
2. Without going into complex language, it doesn't protect them as well as it says.
3. there is no such thing as waiving your right to sue - even if it says so. Yes, contracts say so all the time - and that's why it's there, they hope you believe it. Major prison sentence deals are done every day with the convict waiving his right to appeal as part of the bargain - and they do it anyway (complicated, details on request).
A waiver is just another layer of paper your attorney cuts through to sue them - under certain conditions.
4. "Negligence" means different things to different people at different times.
Failure to warn you of something you should know anyway (the track is wet) isn't their fault.
Forgetting to tell you they parked a Cat D7 in the shut-down area is a tort recovery action regardless of whatever you signed.
Posted By: slantzilla
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 08:34 AM
A waiver is not really worth the paper it's written on. All it means is that IF something goes wrong you will have to sue to get anything.
Posted By: therocks
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 11:52 AM
Not racing but Ohio passed a waiver law for hunting.Private landowners that allow someone to hunt their property cant be sued if accidents happen on their land.I guess its worked so far as Ive not heard of any lawsuits.Rocky
Posted By: Somerdale Flash
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/10/11 12:36 PM
Quote:
1. You can't race unless you sign it, so it's not a choice
2. Without going into complex language, it doesn't protect them as well as it says.
3. there is no such thing as waiving your right to sue - even if it says so. Yes, contracts say so all the time - and that's why it's there, they hope you believe it. Major prison sentence deals are done every day with the convict waiving his right to appeal as part of the bargain - and they do it anyway (complicated, details on request).
A waiver is just another layer of paper your attorney cuts through to sue them - under certain conditions.
4. "Negligence" means different things to different people at different times.
Failure to warn you of something you should know anyway (the track is wet) isn't their fault.
Forgetting to tell you they parked a Cat D7 in the shut-down area is a tort recovery action regardless of whatever you signed.
X2
Posted By: WayneM
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 02:37 AM
Great views! It sure reads as intimidating.. Not something I'd want to agree to. I guess there won't be a choice if you wanna race....
Posted By: WalterF
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 02:50 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I am not sure if in a court of law you can sign away "negilence".
SOUNDS LIKE they have a bunch of HACKS running that track ...
That legalese comes directly from the insurance company. Don't be surprised to find it popping up at every track insured by the same company, maybe even your local "hack" track.
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 03:00 AM
well we can't get any money out of walter,he has to pay the varrazano toll which is like a car payment!..
Posted By: n20mstr
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 04:10 AM
let me tell you alittle story,
i have raced at E town for probably 25 years now. I have had only one inciden there, My 727 exploded on the starting line. It did not come through the floor but it did "punch" my foot off the throttle pretty hard. Needless to say when they towed my car off the starting line, the guy driving the tow truck took me right to the ambulance, He had asked me if i wanted the ambulance to come to me, i told him NO, im fine, To my surprise the guy stopped at the end of the track and MADE ME GET MY FOOT CHECKED...He told me get it looked at..they checked it, told me it was OK , not broken or anything. THen they told me IF there were any problems with it to go to a doctor or hospital. What im getting at here, is the people at E town are very helpful, caring, and they are not HACKS. If anything they are just making you sign what the insurance company dictates plain and simple. E town is a state of the art, NHRA flagship facility...I have been bottom 8's at over 160 there, and the conditions are almost always perfect or close to it. Why dont you state your name so they know who you are.....if you had concerns you should have called the track and told THEM your concerns, not a bunch of strangers on here....\
Tony Russo
Posted By: polyspheric
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 06:26 AM
Yup - the track management has to do what their liability carrier tells them, or their bond is revoked.
What I find dishonest is that the waivers make it appear as though you have no recourse if you sign it - which isn't true.
It's like a cop telling you that your accomplice gave you up to make you confess: it only works if you believe the lie.
IMHO there is a loose, informal but very real conspiracy among cops, prosecutors, attorneys and courts that citizens should not know anything about the law.
A lot of "reality" police behavior on TV (like "Cops") is completely illegal and done constantly.
How would I know this?
My office before I retired:
Yes, for real: 60 Centre Street, Manhattan
Posted By: RodStRace
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 05:46 PM
I think this is just a part of an epidemic that us little guys are getting more and more upset about.
It seems like the lawyers are writing more and more into disclaimers, waivers and conditions of acceptance that we cannot change, control or alter.
See the thread about adpoting pets, any software license, etc.
As mentioned here, they CAN be fought in court, but why do we have to sign such obviously false and misleading legal documents anyway? There should be a reasonable measure they must abide by so the average person is not bullyed into signing such things.
Posted By: JSR1485
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 06:39 PM
I agree 100% with Tony
I have been racing at Raceway park since 1977 and have been going there longer than that and they are and have always been nothing but "TOP Notch" The Napp Family has always looked out for us racer's and I would bet the that insurance carrier told them this is what you have to do and this has to be signed by the racer's. I also have a story, my son who was 5 @ the time jumped out of a moving golf cart in the pits and landed face first on the asphalt -he was a mess and so was I ! I was driving when he jumped out. I had more EMTs and people helping. They truely took care of him and me.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 07:21 PM
Insurance Co,s make huge amounts of profit from what the American people dont know,
Posted By: 11secdart
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/11/11 11:36 PM
Although I don`t race there every week, I do race there several times a year and raced their Friday Night " Mean Street" series for a couple of years and I agree the place has always been top notch. Years ago I was on my way to ETown when my truck started to miss, so I pulled into the K Mart Plaza on 18 and changed the under the p/u body gas filter and in the process got a nasty burn along with a little gas in it. When I got to the track my wife insisted I go see the track EMTs to have it looked at, they did, they cleaned the burn and properly applied burn cream and a bandage. They didn`t have to, the injury didn`t even happen at the track but they were nice enough to properly treat the injury and I am/was thankful for that.
Posted By: polyspheric
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/12/11 04:10 PM
Insurance Co,s make huge amounts of profit
Some decades ago, the NJ car insurance companies asked the State legislature for a rate increase.
"Here's our numbers, we're not making enough money".
"Didn't you forget to include the money you made by investing the payments - a few hundred million?"
"That's none of your business".
They didn't get it - that time.
Posted By: n20mstr
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/12/11 04:25 PM
AS far as safety goes....E town is on top of it...
ONE of the best tracks in the country
Posted By: WayneM
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/13/11 11:37 AM
Quote:
1. You can't race unless you sign it, so it's not a choice
2. Without going into complex language, it doesn't protect them as well as it says.
3. there is no such thing as waiving your right to sue - even if it says so. Yes, contracts say so all the time - and that's why it's there, they hope you believe it. Major prison sentence deals are done every day with the convict waiving his right to appeal as part of the bargain - and they do it anyway (complicated, details on request).
A waiver is just another layer of paper your attorney cuts through to sue them - under certain conditions.
4. "Negligence" means different things to different people at different times.
Failure to warn you of something you should know anyway (the track is wet) isn't their fault.
Forgetting to tell you they parked a Cat D7 in the shut-down area is a tort recovery action regardless of whatever you signed.
I guess in the "legal eagle" society we live in today, you'll have to get the right guy to defend you when the time comes- and hope and pray it never does.
I have been around that track a bit myself. my first run happened when the present tower was just a skeleton... I have been on the side for a while waiting for the chance to jump back in. I know Etown is known as a state of the art facility. I have never needed their medical services in my 500 or so passes I have logged there. I DO get concerned about the future though. Will you know about a change in their policy when or if it happens?
After all it is primarily a business to them. It's a hobby or love to us.
Posted By: fishy340
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/13/11 11:45 PM
this all started when that YELLOW DUSTER,smoked that tube chassis 2400lb capri,duster on his roof,capri on fire!
Posted By: 11secdart
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/14/11 12:18 AM
Was that last July on a Sunday? I think thats the day I Won Street Eliminator, I remember a long cleanup and I think it was a Maverick not a Crapi.
Posted By: emarine01
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/14/11 02:39 AM
Don't mean to change the subject but,,, Do some of you guys have a no pay clause in your life insurance for auto racing?
Posted By: Anonymous
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/14/11 02:41 AM
Quote:
Don't mean to change the subject but,,, Do some of you guys have a no pay clause in your life insurance for auto racing?
I pay $1 a month extra for a rider on mine.
Posted By: WayneM
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/14/11 11:21 AM
Quote:
Don't mean to change the subject but,,, Do some of you guys have a no pay clause in your life insurance for auto racing?
DEFINETLY not changing the subject! This is what I worry about. I have a house and extended family living in it. Nowadays I have to weigh my risks. I never knew of such a thing. 
Back to the legal thought, I know bikers have lawyers specializing in their corner, maybe Drag Racers should have it too. I think I saw some legal representation in National Dragster, but local would be better.
Posted By: SomeCarGuy
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/14/11 11:57 PM
I paid about 3 bucks a month extra for a rider that covered me while racing. After I got too busy to race, my agent suggested that enough time had passed (3 years) that we submit a form and drop it. Underwriters agreed but I have been asked when applying for more coverage specifically about the matter.
Posted By: dennismopar73
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/15/11 02:32 AM
these are just standard waiver forms
nothin to get excited about
you know when you race it on you
the reason they do this try to keep the liabilty
down somewhat.
if wasnt for stupid people sueing over to hot of coffie
or hey i was driving down this 2 lane rd and there was another
car beside me and he hit me , ooo by the way it was at a racetrack
woooo we didnt know that
its a risk we all accept when we go,
so just sign the d..... thing go racin if not
dont race
if you keep this up you wont have any track to run at
because ins would be to high and they would have to close
so come on get over allready
Posted By: n20mstr
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/15/11 02:46 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Don't mean to change the subject but,,, Do some of you guys have a no pay clause in your life insurance for auto racing?
DEFINETLY not changing the subject! This is what I worry about. I have a house and extended family living in it. Nowadays I have to weigh my risks. I never knew of such a thing.
Back to the legal thought, I know bikers have lawyers specializing in their corner, maybe Drag Racers should have it too. I think I saw some legal representation in National Dragster, but local would be better.
My life insurance covers me at the racetrack, wether it be spectating or driving. I made sure of that
Posted By: Dago Red
Re: Englishtown's waiver of liability agreement - 01/15/11 04:30 AM
Quote:
Don't mean to change the subject but,,, Do some of you guys have a no pay clause in your life insurance for auto racing?
This one's a real deal gang. My wife worked in the insurance business and showed me buried way down the bottom are things called "high risk hobbies" that can give the insurance companies an out from having to pay on life insurance policies. Auto racing is one of them.....so is skydiving, bull riding, stunt flying, wreck diving, rodeo clown, bungey jumping et al. There's about forty of them.
Being a dumb redneck isn't on there.....yet.
"Hold my beer and watch this.."