Moparts

RB main girdle ??????

Posted By: RockChip

RB main girdle ?????? - 01/05/11 03:13 AM

What is the best main girdle setup?

I have seen a few. some that come with caps and some that dont, what is the expected max HP with some of the different girdles, with caps or without?

then I found a set of main caps with the cross bolt ears on them like the Hemi's have that you machine and drill your block to make them fit, anyone have anny experience with them?

I have had verry good luck running a stock 413 Industrial block with just studs runnin sneeze on it but I want to keep the old blocks together for future use.

Attached picture 6397934-Freshend440-4.jpg
Posted By: BradH

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/05/11 03:49 PM

My opinion is the cap & girdle combination that BCR used to make is the best setup to run on an OEM big block. However, the cost of that + the machine work to install starts pushing the $$$ into aftermarket block territory.

If you still are interested, contact Moparts member "CRE2004" (Mike at Chenoweth Racing) to see if they're ready to start reproducing the BCR stuff, yet.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/05/11 06:29 PM

I have built several stock 440 and 400 passenger blocks that I used the Mopar brand Ductile iron main caps with ARP main studs that make over 700 HP, one is over 800 HP with no problems yet I have bought and will continue to buy the better, world or Koleno(Koffels ) aftermarket cast iron block for motors making above 800 HP from now on
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/05/11 07:18 PM

any girdle is a significant improvement, imo. the bcr is monstrously strong, but expensive to buy and install. i've had real good results with the chenoweth girdles. cheap, easy insurance.
Posted By: thehemikid

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/05/11 08:36 PM

...Any body know who makes this one.

Attached picture 6399163-girdle4.jpgimagebysmokinwoody-Photobucket_1283446503346.png
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/05/11 08:48 PM

Quote:

...Any body know who makes this one.



Looks like a hybrid of BCR main caps and a Chenoweth girdle to me
Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/11 12:38 AM

That is my original cap and girdle setup BCRproducts that I made sitting on my den table. It is not anyone elses as you can see it is 1/2" plate. I thought it almost looked like art against the red cherry wood. I almost kept it there but the wife wouldn't have it lol lol lol
Mike and Dale at CRE are making them now call them at 309-266-8084



Greg

Quote:

...Any body know who makes this one.

Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/11 05:18 PM

Remember it was you guys here on Moparts that made that setup what it is today. It was feedback from at least five shops and at least ten individuals and Tom's great initial insight. I was just the one who put it all together and made it a reality.
It is never a substitite for an aftermarket block but it makes a stock block take at least 40% more than it could without one in my veiw.

Greg
Posted By: roadhazard

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/11 06:14 PM

Sorry guys, should have looked closer at the thickness of the plate

It's nice to know that these will be available from the capable hands of Dale & Mike @ Chenoweth.

Best of luck in your future endevors Greg

Greg
Posted By: PETE@BESTMACHINE

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 04:09 AM

Save your money and get a aftermarket block. Has anybody used one and stopped block failure because of it?
Posted By: thehemikid

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 05:46 AM

Quote:

Remember it was you guys here on Moparts that made that setup what it is today. It was feedback from at least five shops and at least ten individuals and Tom's great initial insight. I was just the one who put it all together and made it a reality.
It is never a substitite for an aftermarket block but it makes a stock block take at least 40% more than it could without one in my veiw.

Greg



...I understand, & thanks for all the info.
Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 07:13 AM

I agree there is no substitute for an aftermarket block but this system has its merrits and use. Looking back at sales records I sent about 25% of these to outside the USA sales. These were countries that have existing blocks and no aftermarket that is affordable. I sent these to England Norway Finland New Zealand Australia Germany and Denmark. Oddly enough Finland I had sold at least a dozen to?? There is no doubt that there is a middle ground where this setup finds its place. Hundreds of sales proved that. If they were failing all over the place you would have seen it here on this public forum. But you didn't. I am not saying that there wasn't failures because ther may have been. But I am not aawre of them. Public forums are a dangerous place to play as 100 customers that are happy will tell only 5 people but one unhappy customer will tell 50 people. Pete and the guys build great motors just look here on this forum with all the happy customers.But I also have been selling caps and systems since the early 90's and You would be hard pressed to find anyone on this or any other board say that my products did not live up to their name. In all those years I had one production run go bad and I knew exactly where those caps went and took care of it that week.

Greg
Quote:

Save your money and get a aftermarket block. Has anybody used one and stopped block failure because of it?

Posted By: RT540

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 12:35 PM

Quote:

Remember it was you guys here on Moparts that made that setup what it is today. It was feedback from at least five shops and at least ten individuals and Tom's great initial insight. I was just the one who put it all together and made it a reality.
It is never a substitite for an aftermarket block but it makes a stock block take at least 40% more than it could without one in my veiw.

Greg



Hi Greg, this is all history, and it was a lot of fun to help you out with idea´s and try to make the caps and girdle as solid as possible, we made a pretty good job, and I think that I and Dan had both some good input, along with others here.
The stock block is very thin in many places, and the thickness of the cylinder walls, are an equal big problem in many of the old blocks, causing flex, and in some cases cracks that take in water= hydraulic lock and broken rod.

Tom
Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 05:18 PM

Tom good hearing from you. You are right we are trying to do the best with what some of us have. The Aftermarket block is just not always possible logistically or financially. There are lots of guys that have a machine shop sponsor and this setup works great for them. There are lots of guys with nitrous street motors that this setup works great on. Then there are us drag race guys. I raced my Cuda with the same OEM block and aluminum main caps for a dozen years with no reline bore. In fact it is still together in my shop albeit I have not raced for several years. That motor went 9.20s at 146 with ported cast iron 915 heads that I still have and went 9.0s at 150 with ported stock size window Eddy's. My goal is to run high 8s with the same motor 452 and run low 8.s with a new 510 inch that I am building with the same port window Eddy's As far as I know there was not a faster OEM stock stroke block OEM head car out there for at least a ten year period. That motor was NA no boosters.

Greg
Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 07:43 PM

Quote:

Save your money and get a aftermarket block. Has anybody used one and stopped block failure because of it?



So you're asking for people to prove a negative? That is, to prove that an engine would have failed without the girdle?
The ability to make the widely available factory blocks take a lot more power is a wonderful thing. Not everyone is interested in a 300# block so they can run in the 8's.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 07:51 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Save your money and get a aftermarket block. Has anybody used one and stopped block failure because of it?



So you're asking for people to prove a negative? That is, to prove that an engine would have failed without the girdle?
The ability to make the widely available factory blocks take a lot more power is a wonderful thing. Not everyone is interested in a 300# block so they can run in the 8's.


trying not to hijack here, but, has ANYONE had a stock block failure when running a girdle?
Posted By: Get-X

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/07/11 07:57 PM

Most web failures I've seen were in rb blocks, so anyone wanting to use production stuff should consider a b block as a base. I'd be way more worried about splitting a cylinder than a web failure to be honest.
Posted By: PETE@BESTMACHINE

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/08/11 06:23 PM

I would like to here from someone that had a high horsepower stock block, the block failed in the main web area, redid a stock block this time with a girdle and and no problem. Yes cylinder wall thickness is a concern and problem. We use aluminum caps and hard block with good results.You need to know the limits of a stock block and know when not use one, thats all I am trying to point out. It does seem like the low decks do better than the RB block in this area.
Posted By: moparniac

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/08/11 09:19 PM

Im curious to see a girdled block that did have block failure? just curious as I cant ever recall seeing a post on here or someone posted pics of a split block or anything when it had a girlde on! not saying they aint out there just curious if anyone had it happen
Posted By: Hessu

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/08/11 09:26 PM

with steel caps and girdle... and little NOS



Attached picture 6405160-img2030852.jpg
Posted By: mac56

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/09/11 02:39 AM

Quote:

with steel caps and girdle... and little NOS




Define little NOS
Posted By: bigtail

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/03/12 02:20 AM

That almmost looks photoshopped.
Posted By: jamesc

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/03/12 05:47 AM

Quote:

That almmost looks photoshopped.



what makes you say that? looks real to me and you don't want to get that dye on you i can tell you that
Posted By: dmking

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/03/12 06:08 AM

well i got the mancini 3/4 girdle with billet caps.
i split my 73 block
now i am using the same parts in a 78 6630-440 block
with the thicker mains and wide supports. if i brake it
i will report but looking at the differences in the two blocks
it has to be stronger by its self. the girdle is a nice piece
also. i just opened the box today.
tomorrow we mag the block and i am bottom tapping the main and pan rail holes for depth and it is going back to gether.
Posted By: SG duster

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/03/12 11:30 AM

Quote:

Save your money and get a aftermarket block. Has anybody used one and stopped block failure because of it?

put it this way Iv never heard of a block failing because of one
Posted By: moparlulu

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/04/12 07:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Save your money and get a aftermarket block. Has anybody used one and stopped block failure because of it?

put it this way Iv never heard of a block failing because of one

The main reason I bought a kit from Greg was to help with the cap walk issues. It did stop that! No more signs at all! Money well spent for me. Thanks Greg
Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/04/12 03:08 PM

The Chenoweth racing engines deal fell through and is a bad memory at this point.

Jerry from Superior design concepts is now making the BCRproducts line. There was some minor tweeking of the prototypes that we worked out so the setup will be available very soon. Call Jerry fro information (248) 256-1143. Hopefully he will pipe in and give us an update.

Thanks for your patience guys!!


Greg--BCRproducts
Posted By: StealthWedge67

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/05/12 08:16 PM

Anybody have any experience with the 440Source girdle kit?
Posted By: Mopar-Al

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/12 12:25 AM

Quote:

Anybody have any experience with the 440Source girdle kit?



I have installed 3 of them so far not an issue. 1 has aluminum mains, 1 has steel and the other is stock mains. I figure if anything breaks, I am going with an aftermarket block next time anyways. So I'm just not going to get all up and worried about it.

Easy to install, seals well. just get your spacing right with your washer shims. Used on 4.375 crank, 4.25 and 4.15 both aluminum and steel rods. I give up baby setting a 40 yr old block. If it goes, then as I said. Aftermarket from there on.
Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/12 06:42 AM

Quote:

The Chenoweth racing engines deal fell through and is a bad memory at this point.

Jerry from Superior design concepts is now making the BCRproducts line. There was some minor tweeking of the prototypes that we worked out so the setup will be available very soon. Call Jerry fro information (248) 256-1143. Hopefully he will pipe in and give us an update.

Thanks for your patience guys!!


Greg--BCRproducts






Talked to Jerry today and he says shipments will be going out in two weeks.


Greg
Posted By: 8urvette

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/12 07:02 AM

not to hi-jack- but how does everyone seal the girlde to the block? i bought mine from mancini i think a few years ago. and it always seeps oil from between it and the block. i just used sealer. i was told once to use a gasket between it and the block but that seems counter intuitive to its purpose.... if i am supposed to shim the girle to the caps then why would i put a soft gasket in-between? how would i shim that?
Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/12 06:22 PM

Quote:

not to hi-jack- but how does everyone seal the girlde to the block? i bought mine from mancini i think a few years ago. and it always seeps oil from between it and the block. i just used sealer. i was told once to use a gasket between it and the block but that seems counter intuitive to its purpose.... if i am supposed to shim the girle to the caps then why would i put a soft gasket in-between? how would i shim that?


That is why we designed ours the way it is. Much more integraly strong with less sandwich effect. Here is a hint. Just use Permatex grey as a sealant no gasket at all except on the pan. You will never go back to regular silicone again.

Greg
Posted By: dmking

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/06/12 07:52 PM

we are currently doing a mancini also and when done i am taking it that the girdle will be a couple of thousants above the pan rail when done. a gasket would make that not work out.
thanks for the permatex grey idea. i will look for it.
Posted By: bigtail

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/25/12 08:03 AM

Quote:

That almmost looks photoshopped.

I didn't mean to imply it was a faked image. I have never seen a cracked block before. It just looked strange. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/25/12 10:04 AM

Quote:

The Chenoweth racing engines deal fell through and is a bad memory at this point.

Jerry from Superior design concepts is now making the BCRproducts line. There was some minor tweeking of the prototypes that we worked out so the setup will be available very soon. Call Jerry fro information (248) 256-1143. Hopefully he will pipe in and give us an update.

Thanks for your patience guys!!


Greg--BCRproducts



What did you have to change on them? They seemed great to start with.
Also, for those that think they are too expensive, price out the cost of billet main caps, plus a girdle, plus all the fasteners. Mancini sells a kit for about $100 less, but is not as nice as the BCR. It does not even allow for an internal oil pickup?
Posted By: Diablo

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/25/12 06:18 PM

Quote:

I would like to here from someone that had a high horsepower stock block, the block failed in the main web area, redid a stock block this time with a girdle and and no problem. Yes cylinder wall thickness is a concern and problem. We use aluminum caps and hard block with good results.You need to know the limits of a stock block and know when not use one, thats all I am trying to point out. It does seem like the low decks do better than the RB block in this area.



Built a 800hp 496ci engine and cracked a cylinder wall at the end of the first season. The block was stock with alum caps and alum rods.

The next block we did we filled, alum caps, alum rods, and a girdle. Lasted 4 hard seasons with the hp lvl's closer to 850-900..... Then a rod decided to let go and put a nice hole in the block.

I feel the cement was what made the block that much stronger but the girdle must have helped.

I say the first engine set up was with nearly the weakest set up except for alum caps and the second build was the strongest with keeping a stock block.

If I ever buildt another engine in the 800-900hp range I would try and go with a aftermarket block for sure. So much safer in the long run!
Posted By: bcrproducts

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/26/12 02:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The Chenoweth racing engines deal fell through and is a bad memory at this point.

Jerry from Superior design concepts is now making the BCRproducts line. There was some minor tweeking of the prototypes that we worked out so the setup will be available very soon. Call Jerry fro information (248) 256-1143. Hopefully he will pipe in and give us an update.

Thanks for your patience guys!!


Greg--BCRproducts



What did you have to change on them? They seemed great to start with.
Also, for those that think they are too expensive, price out the cost of billet main caps, plus a girdle, plus all the fasteners. Mancini sells a kit for about $100 less, but is not as nice as the BCR. It does not even allow for an internal oil pickup?



We just tweaked some cosmetic stuff like radiused corners etc so that handling the parts is easier.. The product will be exactly the same.

Greg
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/26/12 03:58 PM

Quote:

Tom good hearing from you. You are right we are trying to do the best with what some of us have. The Aftermarket block is just not always possible logistically or financially. There are lots of guys that have a machine shop sponsor and this setup works great for them. There are lots of guys with nitrous street motors that this setup works great on. Then there are us drag race guys. I raced my Cuda with the same OEM block and aluminum main caps for a dozen years with no reline bore. In fact it is still together in my shop albeit I have not raced for several years. That motor went 9.20s at 146 with ported cast iron 915 heads that I still have and went 9.0s at 150 with ported stock size window Eddy's. My goal is to run high 8s with the same motor 452 and run low 8.s with a new 510 inch that I am building with the same port window Eddy's As far as I know there was not a faster OEM stock stroke block OEM head car out there for at least a ten year period. That motor was NA no boosters.

Greg

What chassis and weight were you at running those times................?
Posted By: savoyracer

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/26/12 04:59 PM

Quote:

Im curious to see a girdled block that did have block failure? just curious as I cant ever recall seeing a post on here or someone posted pics of a split block or anything when it had a girlde on! not saying they aint out there just curious if anyone had it happen

............Yep! had no problems breaking one.......BCR aluminum caps, hard blocked to the bottoms of the soft plugs, and a girdle, [can't remember the manufacturer right now], Car ran 9.75, at 138, car weighed 3300 lbs. never dynoed it, so you would have to use the formulas to figure the HP, engine lasted about 150 1/8th mile runs, and 20-30 1/4 mile passes, pulled it apart last winter to freshen, and discovered the block broken in several places, on the main webs. had a machine shop build a new one without all the crap, just used a good later model 440 block with the thicker castings, steel caps, and no girdle or hard block, have about 100 runs into this motor so far, it is actually faster, runs 6teens, 111mph, in the 1/8th mile, so far no problems, but I have not torn it down either. I do have a very nice girdle just sitting here, can look up the manufacturer if anyone is interested, I won't go that route again.
Posted By: @#$%&*!

Re: RB main girdle ?????? - 01/26/12 09:12 PM

Quote:


We just tweaked some cosmetic stuff like radiused corners etc so that handling the parts is easier.. The product will be exactly the same.

Greg



I'd lose the deep counter-sink for the front two holes. Studding the girdle to the timing cover doesn't contribute anything to strength but it does a good job of capturing the timing cover requiring removal of the oil pan to adjust camshaft phasing. DAMHIK
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