Moparts
another 4 speed question (pictures) updated
Posted By: Moparnut426
another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/12/10 01:54 AM
So I have my tranny out, and the column is out also, so I can see all my pedals good and I see a problem. The factory linkage rod from the pedal to the z bar has a huge hole that slips over the stud, and has a retaining clip that is always a pain to get into place. Well I have everything out, and at my reach and I was going to cut the crappo stubs off, and make a rod with heim ends on it to eliminate the sloppyness. Also gona do the same with the clutch fork push rod. Has anyone ever done this and is it worth the time to do that? Also I read in the mopar muscle to lengthen my pedal linkage to 6" for a better ratio. Will all these combined be a good idea, and aid in how smooth the clutch feels?
Kasey
Posted By: fourgearsavoy
Re: another 4 speed question - 11/12/10 02:13 AM
Kasey the heim joint idea is well worth the time and money.When I re-fabbed my clutch linkage I just marked where the factory arms were and made my own arms off the Z-bar tube.
You can use a 3/8'24 female heim for the adjustment rod.I suggest thick wall tube for the rod from the pedal to the Z-bar
Gus
Posted By: 68shifter
Re: another 4 speed question - 11/12/10 02:16 AM
I have done both. Off the pedals I use 1/2 rod with yolks on each end with 3/8 pins. Then down below I use 3/8 rod and yolks again. I haven't used heims that much but should work too.
On the z-bar I changed both levers to change the ratio and for clearance. With the solid rods I could just put slight bends in them to get nice straight zero play push. Plus it allows for multiple adjustment sites for TO bearing clearance pending how much gap you need.
Good luck
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question - 11/12/10 02:21 AM
What do you mean by yokes, Im talking about the heavy duty heims used in dirt car racing that are VERY durable. These are stainless steel, and tough as nails!
Kasey
Posted By: 68shifter
Re: another 4 speed question - 11/12/10 02:29 AM
If your familiar with semi trucks the same things used to hold the brake chamber push rod to the slack adjuster. They see millions of cycles and are used in clutch linkage, throttle linkage and other areas. I have places where I can get a variety of sizes quickly and locally.
They are shaped like a U with the base threaded and a pin through the "forks" that you cotter key in. Just allows for quick&easy disassembly. Like you said though, and Gus, heims are more than adequate especially if you know what ones to get.
Good luck
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question - 11/12/10 02:36 AM
I see what ya mean now. And they are usually cast steel.
I like that idea also. But I have a hand full of heims, and I can get a little adjustment out of them.
Kasey
Posted By: Stanton
Re: another 4 speed question - 11/12/10 03:07 AM
Nope, they're "forged".
Posted By: mshred
Re: another 4 speed question - 11/12/10 03:24 PM
You guys have any pictures of these setups completed? ive never been too happy with the way the factory linkage has all that slop in it...something like this would definatly be a nice upgrade
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (PICTURES) - 11/14/10 03:58 PM
Here are some shot of what I did.
Kasey
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (PICTURES) - 11/14/10 03:59 PM
New push rod
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (PICTURES) - 11/14/10 04:01 PM
Old pedal to z bar link. I modified this one before to take the slop out of it, but this is way better.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (PICTURES) - 11/14/10 04:04 PM
Here is the new one with male heims going into 3/8 ID bushing stock seamless pipe.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (PICTURES) - 11/14/10 04:06 PM
Here is my clutch pedal I changed the ratio on.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (PICTURES) - 11/14/10 04:08 PM
last one of clutch pedal. I did cut the nuby off, but my phone died, so I just got it done and in the car.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 01:37 AM
Is there any tricks to setting up offset dowels? Also Has any one here ever used mobil 1 5w30 or 5w20 oil in their 4 speeds? I have read, and driven a few cars that had that in the trans and it seemed very nice.
Kasey
Posted By: Cab_Burge
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 01:44 AM
Quote:
Is there any tricks to setting up offset dowels? Also Has any one here ever used mobil 1 5w30 or 5w20 oil in their 4 speeds? I have read, and driven a few cars that had that in the trans and it seemed very nice.
Kasey
Don't do it in a 8 3/4 rear end 
I use to use straight ATF type F in my slick and pro shifted NP 833 Hemi trans when I raced NHRA stock, never had a lubrication or heating issues that I was informed of or saw from Doug Nash or Joe Liberty when they did and redid my gear sets later after every 40 to 45 runs 
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 01:58 AM
Im gonna run 5w20 mobil 1 in it. Idont plan on bashing it like any NHRA class racing, and Im not one to just pull gears, Ill clutch it.
As far a the bell housing dowels, I think im gonna lock tight them in place for sure, but can I dial this inn with a flatblade screwdriver, or am I going to have to pull them out every time to get it "correct"?
Kasey
Posted By: theclutcher
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 02:46 AM
they should be tite enough to not need locktite.
most complain to tite.
tial and error, measure old dowel vs new and note difference.
put new dowel in drill press or drill and polish to comfortable fit.
Not too tite to be a hardship, not to loose where they turn freely.
At least thats what I do.
Posted By: rowin4
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 04:15 AM
What dowels did you end up buying?
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 05:06 AM
I bought the dowels that are on here as a sponsor. Can clock them and use a set screw to secure them.
Kasey
Posted By: radar
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 01:24 PM
The stock bell alignment dowels have 5 thousands of an inch of play, which is also the spec for off center tolerance when bolted down.
Posted By: theclutcher
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 03:34 PM
I just use Lakewoods.
Sometimes a bit more work but never an issue after.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 07:47 PM
Is there a problem if the front bearing retainer is smaller than the hole in the bell housing? I dont think the bearing retainer is any kind of supporting member, Im just curious. I thought I have seen factory bell housings with 2 different holes.
Kasey
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 08:28 PM
Quote:
I bought the dowels that are on here as a sponsor. Can clock them and use a set screw to secure them.
Kasey
Then yes you can just turn them , I think you use a wrench on flats on the outside of them , loctite the screws when done , use BLUE .
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 08:31 PM
Quote:
Is there a problem if the front bearing retainer is smaller than the hole in the bell housing? I dont think the bearing retainer is any kind of supporting member, Im just curious. I thought I have seen factory bell housings with 2 different holes.
Kasey
Yes there will be a huge problem , why is your retainer smaller than the hole in the bell? When you dial in the bell you dial it in to that hole the bearing retainer fits snugly into , if the bearing retainer doesn't fit tight in that hole what's the point of dialing the bell in ?
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 08:41 PM
If the hole is bigger what can I do? Its still going to be held tightly in place by the 4 7/16 bolts, and they are centered off the center of the input shaft.
Kasey
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 08:51 PM
They only offer 1 bellhousing for a smmall block mopar and thats a 15320 which I have. And its a 4.87 bore
Kasey
Posted By: bp27
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 09:58 PM
You need a ADAPTER RING 4.354 RETAINER TO 4.807 BELLHOUSING
http://www.brewersperformance.com/products.asp?cat=83
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 10:06 PM
Quote:
You need a ADAPTER RING 4.354 RETAINER TO 4.807 BELLHOUSING http://www.brewersperformance.com/products.asp?cat=83
This or change the retainer to the correct OD.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/15/10 10:16 PM
I was accually thinking of having a machinist buddy make one, but Ill buy one from brewers.
Im kinda glad I thought of that!
Thanks guys
Kasey
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/16/10 05:20 PM
I got the offset dowels in the car, and before I was TIR was 30, now with the dowels in it the TIR is .006 so divide by 2 thats .003 so im .002 under spec now.
Kasey
Posted By: theclutcher
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/17/10 03:02 PM
you check back of bellhousing face?
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/17/10 03:16 PM
its square.
Posted By: theclutcher
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/17/10 03:22 PM
It will be a noticable difference.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 11/17/10 03:30 PM
Im geting excited, but Now I have to wait till summer, BUMBER for me. The clutch linkage, rebuilding the z bar and push rods, squaring the side plate, trueing the bell housing, and changing my heads over to Indybrocks will make it a different car im sure.
Kasey
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 01:35 PM
Here ya go Matt. Found it and reposted it for ya. Maybee they can put this in the tech section so it dosnt get burried.
After driving the car, the only thing I did different was ise longer bolts, and use locktight on them, The jam nuts accually came loose, and I lost pedal once.
But overall its smooth as silk.
Kasey
Posted By: sshemi
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 04:40 PM
Can you see if the arms of the z-bar needs to be reinforced? (twisting)
I was thinking of just duplicating the arms and mount the rod ends between them if i make any sence?
Is there enough room to do so?
I dont have anything in my car yet so i cant check for clearence.
Posted By: sshemi
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 04:44 PM
about the bearing retainer fitment, if you have a lakewood bell and buy the spacer ring there will still be no good fitment. My bell is like 0,04" bigger than the ring so its not perfect.
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 04:44 PM
I thought of using some 4wheeler tie rod ends, but in my car absolutely no room. I dont think any car would have the room inside the car between the brake lever, and clutch lever.
I think I have like 45 bucks in heim joints is all. I threaded everything myself.
Kasey
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 04:47 PM
Quote:
about the bearing retainer fitment, if you have a lakewood bell and buy the spacer ring there will still be no good fitment. My bell is like 0,04" bigger than the ring so its not perfect.
Mine fit really good. The space fit snugly in the bell, and fit snug on the bearing retainer. Maybey I got a good bellhousing
Kasey
Posted By: sshemi
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 05:38 PM
Quote:
I thought of using some 4wheeler tie rod ends, but in my car absolutely no room. I dont think any car would have the room inside the car between the brake lever, and clutch lever.
I think I have like 45 bucks in heim joints is all. I threaded everything myself.
Kasey
I guess its hard to understand my poor english.
I ment to use the rod ends you have and just fab and weld new exact the same brackets (like twins)at the z bar so you can mount the rod end between them with a bolt to go through first a bracket then the rod end and then another bracket and finaly the nut.
That would make it very strong and it would stop it from wanting to twist the single bracket at the z-bar.
Posted By: sshemi
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 05:44 PM
like this
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 06:10 PM
I see now. I accually thought of that too, but would make it very heavy. If i had more time, I would have made the, captured by making the heim sandwiched between another piece, but not go clear to the bottom, just make it big enough to get the heim in there.
Kasey
Posted By: sshemi
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 06:16 PM
like this?
Posted By: Moparnut426
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/12/11 06:30 PM
Yep. If I was to do this all over again thats what I would do. The piece cut and welded to the arm dosnt even have to be as heavy as the other side, just there for aditional support, and a way to eliminate having a jam nut, or a big heavy washer.
kasey
Posted By: mshred
Re: another 4 speed question (pictures) updated - 08/13/11 03:30 PM
Quote:
Here ya go Matt. Found it and reposted it for ya. Maybee they can put this in the tech section so it dosnt get burried.
After driving the car, the only thing I did different was ise longer bolts, and use locktight on them, The jam nuts accually came loose, and I lost pedal once.
But overall its smooth as silk.
Kasey
Thanks Kasey, your the man!
I have never been a fan of the way the factory did these linkages, just seems so bloody sloppy. Im definitely going to be removing it and using some heim ends.
I wonder, has anybody ever actually replaced the arms going off the tubes of the z-bar as well? It seems like Gus mentioned something about it in the second post, but pics are always a bonus
Posted By: sshemi
Re: another 4 speed question (PICTURES) - 08/30/11 03:15 PM
Quote:
Here is the new one with male heims going into 3/8 ID bushing stock seamless pipe.
Did you have any fitment issues with the pedal to Z rod?
I just looked at mine and it is not just a straight rod.
It has some offset at one end.
Or did you use some spacer at that end?