Moparts

anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body?

Posted By: cudabin

anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/25/10 03:19 AM

Any one using a dry sump set up on a big bock mopar in a stock frame A body??

Pictures??

I am trying to imagine how to fit one in, and can't see it...

Cheers,

Arnie

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Posted By: mafo

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/25/10 07:54 AM

no BB here but we relocated the pump to passenger side ...
not easy but I found no other way...

we had to make a new pump bracket but I m sure there is pumps that are made to fit on the right side

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Posted By: cudabin

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/26/10 02:57 AM

passenger side is full... 16V alternator and 4 gallon fuel cell tucked between the factory frame rails.

I have both the belt drive fuel pump and a vacuum pump on the drivers side mounted to the motor plate.

Anyone with a dry sump picture installed?

Thanks,

Arnie
Posted By: cudabin

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/27/10 04:56 AM

Posted By: Cudafied

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/27/10 11:15 AM

Maybe look into the Razor Dry Sump Pump it is driven like a stock big block pump no belt I think it fits closer to the block so it may give you more room. B1Johnny is running one on his engine.

Here are links to Missle and Razor

http://missileent.com

http://www.razorperformance.com/chrysler.htm

Paul
Posted By: jyrki

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/27/10 11:35 AM

How much benefit the dry sump in the narrow Y block gives anyway?
Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/27/10 03:15 PM

Well kind of been my question. I have considered making the switch in the past ut dont see a huge benefit on a BB Mopar. I discussed this with my engine guy and he agreed, a good working pump on a BB Mopar is more than adequate for my power level.
Posted By: cudabin

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/28/10 05:08 AM

Thanks for the links Cudafied! I will contact them and see what i can learn.

Hey Al, Chuck Senatore in his book claimed it could be worth around 30HP on a BB Mopar for a dry sump due to reduced windage...

I may not go this way, but first wanted to know if it even fits...

B1 Johnny got any pics??

Cheers,

Arnie

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Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/28/10 05:12 AM

IMO a good oil pan is worth 20hp over what I typically see on BB Mopar racecars. I am amazed by the number of guys using old school pans on thei race cars. Just sayin...
Posted By: RT540

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/28/10 04:01 PM

Al, how heigh does a good wet sump pump need to be, to work good and what else does in need to have.
I know several on this board, seen some good improvement with a taller pan with kickout. What about the interior, diamond mesh or baffels ? or both !
Posted By: tntmachine

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/28/10 10:52 PM

Quote:

Maybe look into the Razor Dry Sump Pump it is driven like a stock big block pump no belt I think it fits closer to the block so it may give you more room. B1Johnny is running one on his engine.

Here are links to Missle and Razor

http://missileent.com

http://www.razorperformance.com/chrysler.htm

Paul




I am interested in going dry sump as well. I talked to Steve from Missle Ent. @ the US Nat'l. He seems like a straight up kinda guy that will provide personal service. I can't vouch for his product, but I am considering it. If anyone is using his stuff, I’d like to hear from them.
Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/28/10 11:13 PM

depth is not the deciding factor in a pan. scrapers, baffels and trays do the work because most all the turmoil is above the pan line in our shrouded crankcases.
inside my Olson

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Posted By: HEMIFRED

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/28/10 11:23 PM

z

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Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/29/10 06:04 AM

I am no oil pan guru. I have talked this over with my engine guy a coupe of times. He feels there is no need for one on a BB Mopar making the power I do. He feels that a good pump and well designed pan will work fine and not cost any power. With that in mind we have a new pan and the same pump again now. The only real change to the pan being a bid side kickout to help control oil in suspension. Mine has the usual trap doors, scraper, windage tray and kickout.

There is no question in my mind that there is HP in oil pans. Those Milodon, Moroso, Source pans I see are no better than a stock pan IMO. Go talk with Comp or heck even Stock elimiator guys I think you will find they will agree there is power in oil pans. While I agree dry sumps have a place just not sold that there is going to be any big power increase over a properly set up wet sump system.I was willing to drop the money but was convinced otherwise with what I had.
Posted By: Hemiroid

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/29/10 06:57 AM

Quote:

I am no oil pan guru. I have talked this over with my engine guy a coupe of times. He feels there is no need for one on a BB Mopar making the power I do. He feels that a good pump and well designed pan will work fine and not cost any power. With that in mind we have a new pan and the same pump again now. The only real change to the pan being a bid side kickout to help control oil in suspension. Mine has the usual trap doors, scraper, windage tray and kickout.

There is no question in my mind that there is HP in oil pans. Those Milodon, Moroso, Source pans I see are no better than a stock pan IMO. Go talk with Comp or heck even Stock elimiator guys I think you will find they will agree there is power in oil pans. While I agree dry sumps have a place just not sold that there is going to be any big power increase over a properly set up wet sump system.I was willing to drop the money but was convinced otherwise with what I had.




I believe that there is definately power in a dry sump over a wet sump in all out race engines. Unfortunately, as you.ve mentioned , the skirting really raises hell with windage and negates some of the gain in a Mopar.

When the Hemi99 engine was still in developement the biggest single issue they faced was the skirted blocks and windage problems. There's a reason they removed the skirt on one side on the skirted blocks and ran a huge kick out. Here's a picture of the dry sump pan for my Hemi, notice anything strange?

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/29/10 03:13 PM

Ya know I wonder if AndyF ever tested this on the dyno? I know he has a dry sump system and makes some parts for them, just wonder if he ever did any testing with various wet sump systems vs dry sump. Might be interesting to see exactly what is there with a good dry sump vs a good wet sump engine with a good vacuum pump on it.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/29/10 04:39 PM

One thing to think of with a dry sump when it comes to additional power is if you have a wet sump system with NO VACUME PUMP, the dry sump pump will make vacume in the motor if it is sealed up I have heard that from more than one racer who has ran both, one of them has done it both ways, wet with a vacume pump and dry without, no noticeable power increase either way EDIT wet sump with a vacume pump makes more power than a wet sump without a vacume pump
Posted By: RT540

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/29/10 07:59 PM

When I bought my 540, I didnīt buy the 5-stage Verdi pump and tank that the he had used, just the oil pan and the pump mount.
I already had a 3-stage Weaver pump from an old engine.
I did this, only to save some money.
But an open oil pan with only two scavenge sections didnīt work any good, I had more than half the oil in the pan, while running the motor.
Two friends of mine gave me a good advice, to put in slots like louvers.
After that, I had a lot more oil in the tank, instead of the pan.
I would like to try to add one row more.
Posted By: RT540

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/29/10 11:14 PM

Hereīs how the pan looked like with two of the four suctions removed.
Posted By: tntmachine

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/30/10 01:10 AM

Quote:

Hereīs how the pan looked like with two of the four suctions removed.





So I'm curious, do run a vacuum pump with your 3 stage? Would a vacuum pump be necessary with a 4 stage?
Posted By: RT540

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/30/10 08:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hereīs how the pan looked like with two of the four suctions removed.





So I'm curious, do run a vacuum pump with your 3 stage? Would a vacuum pump be necessary with a 4 stage?




No I didnīt, and it didnīt make much vacuum either.

You would have to ask each company that makes dry-sump pumps to get the correct answer.
Thereīs atleast 3 types of gears that dry sump pumps use, I think Peterson now have a twisted roots loob style also, so that makes it four typer, maybe there are more.
Most 4-stage pumps will not make vacuum that can be compared to an extra moroso vacuum pump, but a roots style dry sump pump with wider scavenge sections will pull lots of vacuum.
Georotor( moroso) and regular gear type like my old Weaver pump, will not create 15" of vacuum.

Edit: with regular gears, I meant spur gears ( googled).
Posted By: RT540

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/30/10 11:53 AM

Hereīs another thread about dry-sump pumps, mostly about the missile pump.

https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rt=all&vc=1
Posted By: Tig

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/30/10 01:17 PM

Do these pumps clear the drivers side stock motor mounts and steering box mounts.? Do the dry sumps clear the steering draglink bar?
Posted By: cudabin

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/30/10 06:02 PM

good questions Tig, That is what I want to know...

Arnie
Posted By: moparniac

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/31/10 10:59 AM

not of my a-body but im getting ready to sell a Barnes 5 stage/1.375 section and cast iron pressure section setup! it has the brackets for a pass side front mount sbc but you can get the different brackets! these pumps aint cheap but Id sell for a good deal if interested! if interested just pm me! comes with the fittings also...

Posted By: RT540

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 10/31/10 07:12 PM

Quote:

Do these pumps clear the drivers side stock motor mounts and steering box mounts.? Do the dry sumps clear the steering draglink bar?




I canīt help much here, I do know of a 68 Cuda that they had a moroso 4-stage pump in, and I think it was on the driver side.
That car got a stock steering box with a draglink.
The B1 499 sat pretty high in the chassi, maybe to clear the dry sump pump ?? Car is sold and donīt know what they are using for oil system now.

Hereīs a good tech article on dry sump. The blue roots loobs are from a teflon coated Verdi pump

http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0710_dry_sump_oil_system/index.html
Posted By: tntmachine

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 11/01/10 01:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Do these pumps clear the drivers side stock motor mounts and steering box mounts.? Do the dry sumps clear the steering draglink bar?




I canīt help much here, I do know of a 68 Cuda that they had a moroso 4-stage pump in, and I think it was on the driver side.
That car got a stock steering box with a draglink.
The B1 499 sat pretty high in the chassi, maybe to clear the dry sump pump ?? Car is sold and donīt know what they are using for oil system now.

Hereīs a good tech article on dry sump. The blue roots loobs are from a teflon coated Verdi pump

http://www.stockcarracing.com/techarticles/scrp_0710_dry_sump_oil_system/index.html




That article does a nice job of explaining a dry sump system. Kind of a dry sumps for dummies. Thanks for posting it.
Posted By: AndyF

Re: anyone w/ dry sump in a BB A body? - 11/01/10 01:53 AM

Quote:

Ya know I wonder if AndyF ever tested this on the dyno? I know he has a dry sump system and makes some parts for them, just wonder if he ever did any testing with various wet sump systems vs dry sump. Might be interesting to see exactly what is there with a good dry sump vs a good wet sump engine with a good vacuum pump on it.




The dry sump setup can certainly make more power if the engine is designed for it. The guys at Reher-Morrison claim up to 50 hp on their bracket motors and I'm not going to argue with their numbers.

Even if the power was the same there are a ton of advantages to using a dry sump. I'd recommend one on any serious race car, even on a bracket car. Not having a sump full of oil is a good reason by itself not to mention the better quality oil that gets pumped thru the engine.

I have a 3 stage pump and a 5 stage pan at the moment. One of these days I'll go ahead and buy myself a 5 stage pump.

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