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Low buck 318 build...

Posted By: F1Scamp

Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 01:42 PM

Alright guys, I have a 66 Dart that is itching for attention...
It has a 318 from unknown orgins, w/ magnum heads, magnum version of a air-gap intake. Has great oil pressure, 155psi cranking compression, and runs hard from 3800-6200. But the stock converter and 2.9 rear gear make it an absolute slug on the bottom. I have a good built 904, 3500stall converter, 8 3/4 w/3.23 posi to throw in the rear. Has good suspension and been converted to disc brakes.
I live 44miles from work, around 85miles from the local track. I want to do a as cheap as possible build that I wouldn't have an issue driving to track and back. Pump gas deal.

I was thinking along the lines of: Factory exhaust manifolds swapped, homemade 2 1/4" crossover, cheap ebay t3/t4 hybrid (internally gated 8psi one), cheap ebay intercooler, blowthru 750 eddy, 3" downpipe split to 2 1/2"factory exits, bosch blowoff valve, msd 6al.
Thinking of putting the turbo where the battery would go and throwing the battery in the trunk.
Please crtique this.

Also as far as fuel systems go... can I use a carter mechanical pump or does it need to be boost referenced? I hate electric pumps on muscle cars.

Any flaws in the plan?

Brian
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 02:39 PM

Your plan sounds good and you have to have some sort of boost reference to your fuel pump.
Posted By: Duner

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 02:40 PM

That turbo will be too small for that application.
Posted By: F1Scamp

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 02:44 PM

Quote:

That turbo will be too small for that application.



What about one of those t70's?
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 02:50 PM

I'd buy a S/C unit of a 5.0L mustang and make it work for your Dart. Probably score an entire set-up for around $15-1800. You can't flip sb mani's like a BB. You will have to custom make everything. Unless you have mad welding skills the S/C is going to be cheaper in the end.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 02:54 PM

Also as far as fuel systems go... can I use a carter mechanical pump or does it need to be boost referenced? I hate electric pumps on muscle cars.


easy those pumps have a small vent hole in the top or side. When I did my s/c'd 440 I taped a small tube in that hole and ran a line from the head unit to it. worked like a charm.
Posted By: F1Scamp

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 03:12 PM

Quote:

I'd buy a S/C unit of a 5.0L mustang and make it work for your Dart. Probably score an entire set-up for around $15-1800. You can't flip sb mani's like a BB. You will have to custom make everything. Unless you have mad welding skills the S/C is going to be cheaper in the end.



Not interested in doing a s/c set-up. Why cant I swap the manifolds side to side?
Posted By: 1Fast340

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 04:46 PM

i have not done alot of reserch on turbod aplications but i think you want a MSD6btm instead of the 6AL, if you already have the 6AL i think you may be able to add the boostretard.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 05:04 PM

You can't flip BB manifolds either, as the manifolds will usually block the sparkplug holes.

Can't flip SB manifolds upside down due the non-symmetrical center port and the offset mounting bolts for teh end cylinder ports. I suppose a guy could make some 1" thick adapters, but it would take some work.

You can swap SB manifolds side-side but chassis fitment would need verified, especially in an early Abody. You will have to lose the PS though (if you have it) because the manifold will dump right where the pump is.

I have seen a high-mount PS pump on an early Dakota that might allow PS, but I've never verified.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 05:07 PM

Quote:

i have not done alot of reserch on turbod aplications but i think you want a MSD6btm instead of the 6AL, if you already have the 6AL i think you may be able to add the boostretard.


The 6BTM is a boost timing master. If you already have a 6AL I think there is an add-on BTM you can plug into it.

FWIW, I would probably NOT use a 3500 stall in such a light car for turbo use. Turbos like to be loaded up, so to speak, so a low-stall is reportedly better. Wouldn't use it for somethign I drove that far to work every day, either.

Based on your 6200 revs, is your cam too large? Turbos like small overlap/duration, the oppoosite of a cam that helps a NA engine rev high. You'll have to research that one further.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 05:21 PM

Quote:


Also as far as fuel systems go... can I use a carter mechanical pump or does it need to be boost referenced? I hate electric pumps on muscle cars.



To go further on what some others have said:
Boost-referencing is not related to teh type of pump you use, it refers to increasing fuel system pressure 1:1 with boost so that you fuel delivery remains constant. Mandatory with any force-fed engine.

As Yuck mentioned, you can boost-ref a mechanical pump that way, otherwise boost-ref for an elec pump is typically done at the pressure regulator (if a bypass style). Can't boost-ref a dead-head regulator, I don't think.

Whatever pump you use, you must verify that you get enough fuel flow at max boost (either by engineerig specs, measuring into a bucket, or a gauge on the engine) otherwise you will run lean, and lean can quickly destroy a pressurized engine. Some pumps can supply sufficient flow at low pressure, but adding 10-15 psi addtional pressure on their outlet causes them to deliver insufficient flow.

Remember - pumps create flow, the system restrictions create pressure. A pump must be able to provide flow in the face of that pressure.
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 05:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'd buy a S/C unit of a 5.0L mustang and make it work for your Dart. Probably score an entire set-up for around $15-1800. You can't flip sb mani's like a BB. You will have to custom make everything. Unless you have mad welding skills the S/C is going to be cheaper in the end.



Not interested in doing a s/c set-up. Why cant I swap the manifolds side to side?



If you want to turbo it you will have to custom make headers or as mentioned flipflop the mani's and create some kind of set-up. Not sure what would be easier. I guess you might be able to get a set of shorty headers and mount them backerds. One problem is you don't have a ton of room in that engine bay so you will need the no matter what you do.
Posted By: F1Scamp

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 06:01 PM

All I have in the Duster is a carter mechanical, and I don't plan on going faster than 11.9's tops in the 66.
I have a msd6btm, but I was thinking just welding the slots in the dizzy would be a more consistant answer.

I am not afraid of alittle and .

Is there a turbo you guys reccomend? I am willing to take chances on the ebay deals.
Posted By: turbo66valiant

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 06:48 PM

We have the hedman block huggers on our 318ci and welded dizzy slots. This is in a 69 Dart so you would have to trial fit the headers. Looks like there is room to spare. Also running the basic MP Ign. Single turbo w/ Garret T70. Later
Ryan

Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/20/10 09:36 PM

You can use block headers like in the pic above and have the driver's side come around either the back or the front.

Another option, which is what I did, was use a set of stainless shorty headers for an A body application and swapped sides. A bracket was made to relocate the PS up ½ inch.
Posted By: F1Scamp

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/21/10 12:27 AM

That set-up fits with the factory k-member? Do the pipes go under it?
I figured I could find some manifolds that would miss most everything, if I have to make a mount for the alternator to move it so be it. Someone has had to have done this and knows what manifolds would work?
Posted By: turbo66valiant

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/21/10 01:12 AM

Yes it fits the K-member and tucked as close as possible to the bottom of it. They could also be sent above it but the bigger oil pan was an issue. Alt relocate was no problem. Later
Ryan
Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/21/10 01:51 AM

Quote:

We have the hedman block huggers on our 318ci and welded dizzy slots. This is in a 69 Dart so you would have to trial fit the headers. Looks like there is room to spare. Also running the basic MP Ign. Single turbo w/ Garret T70. Later
Ryan





looks good. Wonder if you could do the same w/ a BB B-body???
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/21/10 12:55 PM

Quote:

if I have to make a mount for the alternator to move it so be it.


If you go to the turbomustangs site, do a search thru my posts (I'm Fury Fan there also). I started a thread on alternator relocation brackets and I think there are some links in there. There are a few smallblock relocation kits out there.
Posted By: dodge turbo

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/23/10 12:17 PM

manifolds off a mag motor fit perfect in an a-body flipped side to side

- and i flipped my alt to the drivers side with out havin to buy or make special brackets..just a vise to flatten out the triangle piece and made just shortened the spacers
Posted By: feets

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/23/10 01:54 PM

Flipped?

Do you mean swapped?

I can see a right side fitting the left side but I can't see them bolting on upside down.
Posted By: TheOtherDodge

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/23/10 06:22 PM

Why relocate the alt? Use the factory acc brackets...Works like a champ!

Attached picture 6265080-MotorTop.jpg
Posted By: dodge turbo

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/24/10 12:17 PM

Quote:

Flipped?

Do you mean swapped?

I can see a right side fitting the left side but I can't see them bolting on upside down.



flipped / swapped what ever.....passenger side on the drivers side and the drivers side on the passneger side
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/25/10 01:56 PM

Quote:

manifolds off a mag motor fit perfect in an a-body flipped side to side



Do they clear the PS gearbox or is manual steering required?
Posted By: F1Scamp

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/26/10 12:37 PM

The p/s manifold on the car will work great on d/s I just need to find a d/s that will work on the p/s.

Anybody use a set-up like this?

http://www.votionspeed.com/servlet/the-949/TYPE-5-Water-to/Detail

It seems it would work great for something that may get stuck in traffic or long periods of low speed? And the price is very comparable to a decent air-to-air setup when considering how much less piping you need to buy..
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/26/10 09:53 PM

Core size on that one is a joke of any real power.
Posted By: Duner

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/27/10 12:24 AM

This A/W intercooler setup will melt 20 lbs of ice on a single pass on a 100° day with an IAT thru the traps at about 90°.

Posted By: F1Scamp

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/27/10 01:02 PM

Quote:

Core size on that one is a joke of any real power.



So your saying it should be fine for a stock bottom end 318?
Posted By: Duner

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/27/10 02:48 PM

The stock bottom end won't be the issue unless you rattle it. That small core won't be very effective or efficient - which could lead to detonation and the demise of the pistons and rod bearings. The larger and more effective the intercooler, the less prone to high IATs and detonation.
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/27/10 02:56 PM

Duner has far more experience than me (and a lot of us, I suspect), but I'll throw out a tidbit I got from the Corky Bell book last night -

(paraphrased)If running lower boost levels (less than 7-8?) an intercooler is of reduced benefit and efficiency of the compressor is a better place too focus. Learn to read the maps for various compressors and find one with an efficiency greater than 70% for the usage you intend.

Duner's right, detonation is a prime killer for a shortblock, a good tune can prevent problems, but high ACT temps make a safe tune more challenging.

As with most things, low-buck requires more attention in the planning stages. GIGO.
Posted By: Duner

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/27/10 09:16 PM

I had trouble with my 4.7 Dakota pinging when I wasn't in boost and just driving normally in traffic. The addition of the turbo and the fact that the radiator's hot air was blowing over the charge air pipe between the turbo and the throttle body meant that my IATs were in the 170° range when NOT in boost and in the 250° range when in 7 psi of boost. Too hot!

Adding the intercooler cured the problem completely. Granted - I'm trying to operate my vehicles here on the surface of the sun, but it gets hot everywhere sometime. Intercoolers are worth the effort.
Posted By: gdonovan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/27/10 10:31 PM

Quote:

Intercoolers are worth the effort.



Closest thing you will get to a free lunch, to give you an idea how good it is...

One a typical turbo mopar without an interccoler you can run 6-7 psi of boost on 87 octane swill and chances are you will start pinging.

With an intercooler? I have run 18 psi on the same gas. =)
Posted By: F1Scamp

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/28/10 06:32 PM

I def. will run an intercooler, I was just thinking a water to air intercooler would be more efficent than air to air. The same company makes bigger intercooler's for not much more money.

I have been doing somemore research on the turbo sizing.... I think this would be a pretty good choice. Might be alittle small, but I am not going for broke.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...RK%3AMEWNX%3AIT
Posted By: Fury Fan

Re: Low buck 318 build... - 10/28/10 07:54 PM

Here's a link to info on the 'Chinese GT45 Y2004K' turbo. I have not read all these pages so I don't know how the story turns out.

http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=96046.0
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