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LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE?

Posted By: maximum entropy

LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/12/10 10:25 PM

i did a little on line research to refresh/confuse my memory. any stock/super stock racers out there willing to divulge that little tidbit about their combination?
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 01:35 AM

It only matters if octane isn't high enough.
Even when this is true, it vanishes above about 4,000 RPM and has no effect on peak torque or power.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 09:22 AM

Quote:

It only matters if octane isn't high enough.
Even when this is true, it vanishes above about 4,000 RPM and has no effect on peak torque or power.



Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 07:57 PM

are you saying that the importance of dynamic compression ratio is overstated?
Posted By: 602heavy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 08:20 PM

Quote:

It only matters if octane isn't high enough.
Even when this is true, it vanishes above about 4,000 RPM and has no effect on peak torque or power.




You got me real confused here.........the more the cylinder can ingest the higher the dynamic/cylinder pressure...
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 08:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It only matters if octane isn't high enough.
Even when this is true, it vanishes above about 4,000 RPM and has no effect on peak torque or power.




You got me real confused here.........the more the cylinder can ingest the higher the dynamic/cylinder pressure...


true, but don't confuse cylinder pressure with dynamic compression ratio, which, like static c/r, is a calculated number that doesn't change.
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 08:54 PM

Quote:

are you saying that the importance of dynamic compression ratio is overstated?




No.
Dynamic Compression is a fancy term to describe re-calculating compression ratio from the point the intake valve closes. The new compression ratio can then be used to calculate an estimated cranking compression pressure, and the cranking pressure can be used (roughly) to estimate the fuel octane requirements.
If the Dynamic compression is too low you will be giving up some low end power, if it is too high, the engine may need higher octane fuel to prevent detonation.
When the engine reaches a higher RPM where there is no reversion from the upward movement of the piston from BDC the dynamic compression has little meaning to how the engine will perform.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 08:58 PM

i'm really tempted to try a cam that's way too big (on paper) for my combo. just for the hellovit. the old hotrodder's proclivity!
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 09:27 PM

Quote:

i'm really tempted to try a cam that's way too big (on paper) for my combo. just for the hellovit. the old hotrodder's proclivity!




It's done all the time, just use alot of gear and converter so the engine does not notice the loss of low RPM torque.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 09:50 PM

Yup.
Got a smog 400 with a 509 cam and 120 psi cranking?
Use a 9" converter.

Use fade-out point of DCR varies with the build, but (as said above) once reversion stops the engine sees static CR, and perhaps more if VE is above parity.

What's it good for?
How happy you'll be with a low compression engine - the DCR numbers tell you how "soft" it will be at low speed, and a guess at if it will knock.
JM2¢? I think it gives a fair comparison of torque around 1,000 RPM to estimate how your new cam will affect your stall speed: multiply DCR × displacement at intake closing. If the number is down more than 10%, the idle will be worse and the converter may not do as much.
The reverse: if the cam is selected, tells you how much static CR you need to make it stronger off-idle.
Again: don't just pick the psi #, which is only the knock value. It's also acting on a much smaller cylinder.
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/13/10 09:57 PM

Quote:

once reversion stops the engine sees static CR, and perhaps more if VE is above parity.


JM2¢? I think it gives a fair comparison of torque around 1,000 RPM to estimate how your new cam will affect your stall speed: multiply DCR × displacement at intake closing.It's also acting on a much smaller cylinder.


interesting perspective on the cylinder volume. i didn't (consciously) think of it that way. thanks.
Posted By: SILVER67

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 03:11 AM

General question....

So can you raise or lower your dynamic compression with a camshaft change? Is that what happens with a more or less aggressive cam?

Michael
Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 03:20 AM

Quote:

i'm really tempted to try a cam that's way too big (on paper) for my combo. just for the hellovit. the old hotrodder's proclivity!


Do it, I do all of the time from what I`m told.
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 03:50 AM

Software programs are written by people Some of those people have hands on knowledge and some don't. Some are writing programs based on theory, how fast will it go at the track is what I like to see Not on paper I don't want to brag, if your not testing by thrashing and developing new combinations your getting left behind
Posted By: maximum entropy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 05:43 PM

Quote:

General question....

So can you raise or lower your dynamic compression with a camshaft change? Is that what happens with a more or less aggressive cam?

Michael


yes. that and changing the static compression ratio. earlier intake valve closing, and/or higher static compression both raise the dynamic cr, and vice-versa.
Posted By: patrick

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 06:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

General question....

So can you raise or lower your dynamic compression with a camshaft change? Is that what happens with a more or less aggressive cam?

Michael


yes. that and changing the static compression ratio. earlier intake valve closing, and/or higher static compression both raise the dynamic cr, and vice-versa.




don't even have to change the cam...just advance or retard it to change the intake close point....a low buck trick on stock 400's is to advance the cam 4-6 degrees, it boosts DCR and helps with low end torque by closing the intake valve sooner.
Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 07:17 PM

Dynamic ratio, is mostly controlled by cam timing events and is VERY important number to know, for certain applications. I mostly deal with the cranking number, but is all relative. For what I do, nitrous motors, I need to know this. If I have two pretty much identical motors and they both have static CR of 14.5:1, but one has a cranking psi of 160 and the other has 200, because of cam events, that will very much effect the way I tune the nitrous.

Monte
Posted By: 602heavy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 09:07 PM

Quote:

.the more the cylinder can ingest the higher the dynamic/cylinder pressure...


true, but don't confuse cylinder pressure with dynamic compression ratio, which, like static c/r, is a calculated number that doesn't change.




Dynamic CR is calculated much the same as how static CR is calculated , knowing static CR will help net you a bench mark on what type cam the engine will use , dynamic CR #s WILL change throughout the rpm range of the engine , many have the misconseption DCR is a constant , if this were so to what benefit would it be? , DCR is a calculation of swept volume when intake valve is on it's seat , the higher the VE climbs the higher the DCR , or should i say ECR.

Posted By: BradH

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/14/10 09:43 PM

I don't know the specifics, but after reading some stuff on fuel octane vs. static & dynamic CRs by a guy named Tim Wusz (I think) who used to work for Union 76 and moved to Rockett, it was obvious that it's a real balancing act to try to push the static CR too high w/ octane-limited fuel. Even the "big camshaft" band-aid approach only works up to a certain point in the RPM range (the example Tim W. gave in what I was reading was 7000), beyond which the engine was still probably going to encounter issues from insufficient octane.
Posted By: moper

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/15/10 02:48 AM

Because I deal with street engines I use the DCR fairly often. I think if you have a certain fuel type (meaning octane) to run, not taking into account DCR means you're overlooking a crutial ingredient. It's a much better way for me to predict the low speed potential for detonation. I also agree that as rpm rises it's importance is reduced. If you can run any fuel type you want, I dont think it's as critical because you can always use the fuel to stay away from the problems too much pressure for a given chamber brings.
Posted By: Sport440

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/15/10 04:10 AM

Quote:

I don't know the specifics, but after reading some stuff on fuel octane vs. static & dynamic CRs by a guy named Tim Wusz (I think) who used to work for Union 76 and moved to Rockett, it was obvious that it's a real balancing act to try to push the static CR too high w/ octane-limited fuel. Even the "big camshaft" band-aid approach only works up to a certain point in the RPM range (the example Tim W. gave in what I was reading was 7000), beyond which the engine was still probably going to encounter issues from insufficient octane.





With insufficient octane, "Detonation" needs heat, time and pressure to occur.


A simple example of this, is that by simply reducing timing advance "Time" we can reduce the chances of Detonation or even eliminate it from the combo.

Why does this work? By not igniting the charge to early BTDC you dont create a Time/pressure/heat problem that will cause Detonation BTDC.


RPM, also reduces the amount of "Time" for detonation to occur BTDC at its most damaging point.

ATDC,15* or so Fire away!! I want the most hottest violent quench induced explosion. mike
Posted By: 451Mopar

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/16/10 12:49 AM

The Dynamic Compression ratio is a calculated value.
Here is some interesting cylinder computations to compare:
Example is a theoretical stock 440 HP engine with 10:1 static compression.
The piston swept volume is 54.97 (x8 = 439.72cid.)
The total chamber volume includes all the chamber area above the piston at tdc. for out 10.09:1 compression ratio the Total chamber volume is 61.01 (x8 = 488.11cid.)
if we use stock cam specs, the intake would close at 67 degrees after bottom dead center.
The piston position or effective "stroke" calculated from the closing point is 2.726"
=(stroke/2)+rodLength+((stroke/2)*(COS(IntakeClosinPoint*PI()/180))-SQRT((RodLength^2)-((stroke/2)*(SIN(IntakeClosingPoint*PI()/180)^2))))

The new Effective swept cylinder volume = 39.96 cid (calculated the same as swept cylinder volume.) Interesting the total engine swept displacement now is only 319.65 cid,
and total engine volume (with heads space) = 368.04 cid.

What is interesting, it that the new displacement very closely responds to the low speed Volumetric Efficency (VE.) = 73%

The new Dynamic Compression ratio = 7.61:1

Assuming sea level air pressure of 14.7 psi, the estimated cylinder cranking pressure is 153psi assuming this calculation is correct:
=(DynamicCompressionratio^1.2)*AirPressure-(AirPressure)
Above you have to subtract the one AirPressure to get the gauge reading, otherwise the calculation would be the absolute cylinder pressure in the chamber.
The formula I have for low end torque is = 322 (AbsoluteCylinderPressure*EffectiveCylinderSweptVolume*NumberOfCylinders*0.006)

As air speed increases at higher RPMs, the inertia in the ports will overcome the pressure caused by the upward moving piston (also there is less time for this to effect the incoming charge), so more and more air is trapped in the cylinder increasing the VE of the engine. I guess you could call this Dynamic Compression, but it involves knowing intake and head port flows and velocity. Because VE is calculated on swept volume and not total chamber volume it is possable to have over 100% VE in a normally asperated engine.

I have to give credit to Panic Tech Papers @ http://victorylibrary/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm
for all the good info and formulas noted above.
Posted By: 64Post

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT DYNAMIC COMPRESSION, SHALL WE? - 10/16/10 04:01 AM

Quote:

I have to give credit to Panic Tech Papers @ http://victorylibrary/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm
for all the good info and formulas noted above.




Or "Polyspheric" a few posts up...
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